Oh no... not again... the stupid... you worked fewer days so you should make a nickle and some spit argument.
Most teachers work about 183-185 days.
Most other employess in professional positions work about 235 days from my most current reading. They start with 260 (52 weeks times 5) get an average of 10 paid holidays and an average of 15 vacation days.
Use these numbers on your favorite profession to calculate amount earned per day and see if the teacher is badly compensated or of the other profession is being given the shaft. However don't just mindlessly toss out, they work fewer days worked so pay them X.
Also look at the teacher attrition rate and the attrition rate of the other "terrible" job to which you may compare it.
Quote:
According to a recent report from the National Commission for Teaching and America's Future, 33 percent of new teachers leave the profession within three years, and 46 percent are gone by five years.
Yes, teaching is so easy and the calendar so nice that nearly half the the people who study and enter the profession decide they would rather take themselves and 235 days out of their lives to go work somewhere easier.
It's quite simple. If teaching is so "easy" go do it you detractors. It shouldn't be hard to find a job with such a wonderful attrition rate and more retirements then ever coming up. (When most people list "average teaching salaries, they don't realize how old most of the teaching profession really has become. The average salary shows something like 13 years of experience which is what the average teacher has now) Good luck.
The average salary shows something like 13 years of experience which is what the average teacher has now) Good luck.
if the average teacher has been there 13 years, isn't that an impressively long time? that would indicate that being a teacher isn't so horrible, or you wouldn't average 13 years for each person on the job.
new teachers get screwed over to keep old teachers in place, IMO, which is why you have a high attrition rate. that and an elem. ed degree is one of the easier (read no real math/science requirements) degrees to get. so you have people who graduate then try the work and realize they can't hack it and drop out.
that and an elem. ed degree is one of the easier (read no real math/science requirements) degrees to get. so you have people who graduate then try the work and realize they can't hack it and drop out.
/me ducks before SDW pulls out the flamethrower....
if the average teacher has been there 13 years, isn't that an impressively long time? that would indicate that being a teacher isn't so horrible, or you wouldn't average 13 years for each person on the job.
new teachers get screwed over to keep old teachers in place, IMO, which is why you have a high attrition rate. that and an elem. ed degree is one of the easier (read no real math/science requirements) degrees to get. so you have people who graduate then try the work and realize they can't hack it and drop out.
Well first about the impressively long time, you have to remember that the large number of people that got into this profession did so at an earlier time. They may have entered before urban sprawl swallowed up the soccer moms who are now commuting two hours to afford the jumbo mortgage on their 2500 sq. ft house. (for 3-4 member families no less)
They also may have started teaching before record immigration which has brough entirely different sets of problems into the classroom.
Lastly you are right that some of them just have plum teaching assignments. They teach at a suburban school where the PTA raises money for trips to Washington D.C., Hawaii, etc. and who the heck would leave that! I would bet the average teaching experience at those schools is well over 20 years! In every field you have more enjoyable jobs and locals.
As for liberal studies being an easier degree. It does require less math than engineering or computer science for example. However all decent colleges require a few math and science classes for general education. Most degrees do not require advanced math for their completion and no one looks down on the professions associated with those degrees. Likewise having entered my univiersity admitted as a freshman to the college of engineering (most juniors had trouble getting in) I can tell you many engineers need an asthetics class or five.
Doing humanities well is as hard as doing math well
. . . its just that most often people who do humaniteis love the work, love writing and reading
most people who are doing engineering . . . . well I can't say for sure but the majority want a job and are doing the work towards that end, meaning that they probably think it drudge-work.
Though there are many who love math with just as deep a passion as poetry
Sorry, I guess I took your commetns the wrong way.
On Unions: In today's day and age, unions do little to help teachers and lots to hurt them. Because of union contracts, teachers with the same experience level ("seniority") get paid the same, no matter how good or bad they are. Performance based compensation is fought tooth and nail by unions, which means good teachers are not rewarded...even if such performance reviews don't involve stats like stduetn test scores. Unions oppose accountability in all forms. They are little more than a cog in the political maachine. I basically have to be in my union, and I hate it. The union is responsible for the work environment I have, one which says that I have to stay until the end of my contract time even when I'm done with my work. They promote inflexibility. Because of fair bargaining laws, I pay dues even if I'm not in the union. Unions also serve to create an adversarial relationship between employee and employer. ("We're going to get what we came down here for!!!").
On teacher pay: Though I live in an area where teachers are paid above the national average, I don't see how any argument can be made they are overpaid or even, nationally, paid well. The average starting salary is still less than $30,000 a year. This is after a four or five year degree program. In terms of take home pay, that't about $1,700 a month. I started at exactly $30,000 a year and saw bi-weekly checks for about $850. Wow. Big money! I now make about $40,000 a year and contribute 7.5% per year to retirement...mandatory! True, in PA we have a superb retirement system, but it's a real chunk of money every two weeks. I went to school for five years (there were many more courses to take for my degree....I often had to take 19 credits a semester). I paid $350 or so just to take the ridiculous certification exams.
On time off: There is no question we get more time off. But, it's not as much as one might think. I get a week a Chirstmas, Easter (unless snow does us in) certain holidays like Martin Luther King Day and Presidents Day (again, unless snow comes into play), two days at Thanksgiving and the big ten weeks in the summer. By contrast, many professions only get two or three weeks plus holidays. Then again, my brother-in-law is a cardiac Physicians Assistant and gets, I believe, 6 weeks. He also gets unlimited sick time, more personal days, vacation that accumulates, etc. I get no cumulative personal time (though sick time does accumulate). I get two personal days, one "conditional day" an emergency day and ten sick days per year. I can't choose when my vacation is. My brother in-law also makes almost twice what I do. My actual brother is a computer chip engineer and went to school for the same amount of time I did. We worked comparable hours in school. I'd say his degree was marginally more difficult to obtain. He makes about $30,000 more than I.
Let's just say this: I'd be happy to work in the summer if I made another $30K and didn't have the emotional strain of dealing with kids (as much as you like 'em, they can get to you). It's an emotionally challenging business; having to be "on" every second you are on front of kids, being responsible for them. I can't sit at my desk and sip coffee because I'm hung over. Every day I'm out I have to leave extensive plans...which the sub never follows and always bitches about no matter how self-explanatory they are.
So should we be paid more? I think at the outset, yes. But it should also be a performance based system. Let's pay a great teacher 100,000 a year. Hell, let's give the highly qualified new teacher $50,000 year. Let's also elminate tenure and fire those who let children talk openly duirng the presentation of material. Let's have year round school (which will probably never happen) and give teacher's cumulative vacation time. Most importantly, let's have real, minimum standards for kids that eliminate social promotion. Let's give teachers and administrators the power to hold a kid back, even without parental consent. They don't that respect now.
Chicago got rid of social promotion. It was had. There were a lot of tears. But I think they are past it now for the most part.
Glad to hear it. PA schools might say they don;t do it...but they do. We cannot hold a child back (in elementaryat least) without parental consent...even if he fails everything.
Comments
Most teachers work about 183-185 days.
Most other employess in professional positions work about 235 days from my most current reading. They start with 260 (52 weeks times 5) get an average of 10 paid holidays and an average of 15 vacation days.
Use these numbers on your favorite profession to calculate amount earned per day and see if the teacher is badly compensated or of the other profession is being given the shaft. However don't just mindlessly toss out, they work fewer days worked so pay them X.
Also look at the teacher attrition rate and the attrition rate of the other "terrible" job to which you may compare it.
According to a recent report from the National Commission for Teaching and America's Future, 33 percent of new teachers leave the profession within three years, and 46 percent are gone by five years.
Yes, teaching is so easy and the calendar so nice that nearly half the the people who study and enter the profession decide they would rather take themselves and 235 days out of their lives to go work somewhere easier.
It's quite simple. If teaching is so "easy" go do it you detractors. It shouldn't be hard to find a job with such a wonderful attrition rate and more retirements then ever coming up. (When most people list "average teaching salaries, they don't realize how old most of the teaching profession really has become. The average salary shows something like 13 years of experience which is what the average teacher has now) Good luck.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
[B]Oh no... not again... the stupid... you worked fewer days so you should make a nickle and some spit argument.
Nick, this whole post is awesome. But I especially like this part.
Cheers
Scott
The average salary shows something like 13 years of experience which is what the average teacher has now) Good luck.
if the average teacher has been there 13 years, isn't that an impressively long time? that would indicate that being a teacher isn't so horrible, or you wouldn't average 13 years for each person on the job.
new teachers get screwed over to keep old teachers in place, IMO, which is why you have a high attrition rate. that and an elem. ed degree is one of the easier (read no real math/science requirements) degrees to get. so you have people who graduate then try the work and realize they can't hack it and drop out.
Originally posted by alcimedes
that and an elem. ed degree is one of the easier (read no real math/science requirements) degrees to get. so you have people who graduate then try the work and realize they can't hack it and drop out.
/me ducks before SDW pulls out the flamethrower....
all in good fun.
Originally posted by alcimedes
if the average teacher has been there 13 years, isn't that an impressively long time? that would indicate that being a teacher isn't so horrible, or you wouldn't average 13 years for each person on the job.
new teachers get screwed over to keep old teachers in place, IMO, which is why you have a high attrition rate. that and an elem. ed degree is one of the easier (read no real math/science requirements) degrees to get. so you have people who graduate then try the work and realize they can't hack it and drop out.
Well first about the impressively long time, you have to remember that the large number of people that got into this profession did so at an earlier time. They may have entered before urban sprawl swallowed up the soccer moms who are now commuting two hours to afford the jumbo mortgage on their 2500 sq. ft house. (for 3-4 member families no less)
They also may have started teaching before record immigration which has brough entirely different sets of problems into the classroom.
Lastly you are right that some of them just have plum teaching assignments. They teach at a suburban school where the PTA raises money for trips to Washington D.C., Hawaii, etc. and who the heck would leave that! I would bet the average teaching experience at those schools is well over 20 years! In every field you have more enjoyable jobs and locals.
As for liberal studies being an easier degree. It does require less math than engineering or computer science for example. However all decent colleges require a few math and science classes for general education. Most degrees do not require advanced math for their completion and no one looks down on the professions associated with those degrees. Likewise having entered my univiersity admitted as a freshman to the college of engineering (most juniors had trouble getting in) I can tell you many engineers need an asthetics class or five.
Nick
. . . its just that most often people who do humaniteis love the work, love writing and reading
most people who are doing engineering . . . . well I can't say for sure but the majority want a job and are doing the work towards that end, meaning that they probably think it drudge-work.
Though there are many who love math with just as deep a passion as poetry
Sorry, I guess I took your commetns the wrong way.
On Unions: In today's day and age, unions do little to help teachers and lots to hurt them. Because of union contracts, teachers with the same experience level ("seniority") get paid the same, no matter how good or bad they are. Performance based compensation is fought tooth and nail by unions, which means good teachers are not rewarded...even if such performance reviews don't involve stats like stduetn test scores. Unions oppose accountability in all forms. They are little more than a cog in the political maachine. I basically have to be in my union, and I hate it. The union is responsible for the work environment I have, one which says that I have to stay until the end of my contract time even when I'm done with my work. They promote inflexibility. Because of fair bargaining laws, I pay dues even if I'm not in the union. Unions also serve to create an adversarial relationship between employee and employer. ("We're going to get what we came down here for!!!").
On teacher pay: Though I live in an area where teachers are paid above the national average, I don't see how any argument can be made they are overpaid or even, nationally, paid well. The average starting salary is still less than $30,000 a year. This is after a four or five year degree program. In terms of take home pay, that't about $1,700 a month. I started at exactly $30,000 a year and saw bi-weekly checks for about $850. Wow. Big money! I now make about $40,000 a year and contribute 7.5% per year to retirement...mandatory! True, in PA we have a superb retirement system, but it's a real chunk of money every two weeks. I went to school for five years (there were many more courses to take for my degree....I often had to take 19 credits a semester). I paid $350 or so just to take the ridiculous certification exams.
On time off: There is no question we get more time off. But, it's not as much as one might think. I get a week a Chirstmas, Easter (unless snow does us in) certain holidays like Martin Luther King Day and Presidents Day (again, unless snow comes into play), two days at Thanksgiving and the big ten weeks in the summer. By contrast, many professions only get two or three weeks plus holidays. Then again, my brother-in-law is a cardiac Physicians Assistant and gets, I believe, 6 weeks. He also gets unlimited sick time, more personal days, vacation that accumulates, etc. I get no cumulative personal time (though sick time does accumulate). I get two personal days, one "conditional day" an emergency day and ten sick days per year. I can't choose when my vacation is. My brother in-law also makes almost twice what I do. My actual brother is a computer chip engineer and went to school for the same amount of time I did. We worked comparable hours in school. I'd say his degree was marginally more difficult to obtain. He makes about $30,000 more than I.
Let's just say this: I'd be happy to work in the summer if I made another $30K and didn't have the emotional strain of dealing with kids (as much as you like 'em, they can get to you). It's an emotionally challenging business; having to be "on" every second you are on front of kids, being responsible for them. I can't sit at my desk and sip coffee because I'm hung over. Every day I'm out I have to leave extensive plans...which the sub never follows and always bitches about no matter how self-explanatory they are.
So should we be paid more? I think at the outset, yes. But it should also be a performance based system. Let's pay a great teacher 100,000 a year. Hell, let's give the highly qualified new teacher $50,000 year. Let's also elminate tenure and fire those who let children talk openly duirng the presentation of material. Let's have year round school (which will probably never happen) and give teacher's cumulative vacation time. Most importantly, let's have real, minimum standards for kids that eliminate social promotion. Let's give teachers and administrators the power to hold a kid back, even without parental consent. They don't that respect now.
Originally posted by Scott
Chicago got rid of social promotion. It was had. There were a lot of tears. But I think they are past it now for the most part.
Glad to hear it. PA schools might say they don;t do it...but they do. We cannot hold a child back (in elementaryat least) without parental consent...even if he fails everything.