The issue is not whether or not they're on salary. The issue is whether that salary is paid over a 10 or a 12-month year. I'm sure that most folks can stretch the salary out over 12 months, but when you're not making all that much to begin with, that's not exactly an enticing proposition....
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But you know the whole, summers and all major holidays off, sticks a thorn in my side when people start saying that teachers should get paid a lot.
I'm sorry that you feel that way. Really. Perhaps you should ask some teachers how many hours they put in a week on averagefor crappy pay (about which I wrote earlier) before you voice this opinion at your local PTA meeting?
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How many teachers are asked to cover a pager over a holiday or weekend?
I have no idea. If more people who are requested to do so would refuse, perhaps so many people wouldn't have to. I mean, it's one thing for me to put in extra hours with my students because I believe it serves a greater good; it's another thing entirely for a company to expect that I will be at its beck and call simply because it signs my paycheck.
Cheers
Scott
Edit: My wife just read this and said "Hellloooo??? How often do I answer student email all day long? At all hours of the day?"
Well I work in a hospital so ... you know ... I'm dedicated.
I find teachers to be some of the biggest cry babies in the world and they get summes and every major holiday off. Cry me a river.
I worked as a grunt in hospitals for years (mostly radiology and ER stuff). I know what kind of hours you're talking about (I routinely worked on weekends from 5:30 am until 2:00 am). No holidays off. No weekends off. Believe me, I understand. I've been spit on by drugged-out AIDS patients who came into the ER. I've cleaned the shit off the CT table when someone died on it. I've been punched by patients. I've restrained patients. I've seen people seriously injured by patients. I've helped work on patients who were coding. I did all of this for minimum wage. But that's beside the point.
The point(s) are this:
1) This isn't a pissing contest. No one's saying you don't work hard or deserve more time off. Perhaps you should agitate for it? Or find another line of work, if you think it's so bad?
2) If you don't like the summers off thing, go talk to the farmers. So far as I understand it, we have so many holidays here off because the kids are often needed for farm work. If you live in a heavy agricultural area (like I do), this would be READILY apparent. I'd be happy to teach for 12 months out of the year (and believe me, we desperately need it) if I were going to be paid for it. But that will never, ever happen in this country. And not because the teachers want summers "off."
3) If we really value education, shouldn't we do everything we can to get the best and brightest our country has to offer in the classrooms? Doesn't that make sense? Shouldn't we pay them well, which, even considering it's over a 9-10 month scale, we don't? Shouldn't we make the work SOOOOO lucrative that people who would otherwise go into other professions might take up teaching?
I was going to continue, but I'll just end it here. I'm interested, however, to see what SDW has to say about this.
I try not work with real people. Had to measure dose on some balls today. Got no where near that, where's the resident?
I swear to god I don't know what that means. But to turn your last argument back on you, if you haven't been shit on, pissed on, spit upon, or punched recently by a patient, cry me a river.
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Anyway all of this skirts the biggest obstical to good teachers today IMO. The teachers union. Bad teachers stay ... good teachers leave.
Parroting Limbaugh or Boortz or Hannity on this issue doesn't make your case. The teachers' union attempts to ensure that teachers can bargain collectively for the best benefits and pay that they can get. Bad teachers should go. Yes. Absolutely. But firing them and hiring equally incompetent people isn't the answer. The answer is getting the best and the brightest to go into the profession.
It would be hard for me to do that because I don't listen to any of those three. I don't even know who the middle guy is.
Oh dear lord! Even as a lefty I LOOOOVE listening to Neil Boortz! He's a straight-up libertarian, so far as I can tell. And he recently pissed off Bill O'Reilly, which makes him aces in my book.
My wife and I also got another job in another state . . .
and we bought our first house . . . . . all reasons for needing cash.
We're lucky. My wife will be drawing, for July and August, a salary from both her former employer and her new employer (all part of having her salary spread out over 12 months rather than 10). Me? I'm an unemployed and flat-effing-broke house-husband at the moment!
The teachers' union attempts to ensure that teachers can bargain collectively for the best benefits and pay that they can get.
that's a load of crap. the teacher's union is out for the teacher's union, not the teachers. my mom got screwed over by them a number of times. my dad is an attorney, he had to take them to court to allow her to work.
they sell the teachers out constantly in order to keep the people who suck but have been there a long time from getting tossed on their cans.
are any of the teachers here actually happen with their Union? maybe it's different in other states/districts, but i know most teachers my mom knew were not happy with their Union.
[B]that's a load of crap. the teacher's union is out for the teacher's union, not the teachers.
So, you're saying that the teachers' union is out to protect itself, which in turn protects the collective bargaining power of the teachers as a whole? Then I agree with you.
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my mom got screwed over by them a number of times. my dad is an attorney, he had to take them to court to allow her to work.
Since I don't know any of the details involved in this about why your mother was "screwed over" and had to sue in order to be "allow[ed] . . . to work," I won't comment. Your dad being a lawyer has no bearing on this point. My dad's a psychiatric counselor.
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they sell the teachers out constantly in order to keep the people who suck but have been there a long time from getting tossed on their cans.
Now, does this make any sense to you? Are you sure that this is their only concern?
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are any of the teachers here actually happen with their Union? maybe it's different in other states/districts, but i know most teachers my mom knew were not happy with their Union.
I live in a right-to-be-fired state, so no. But there are lots and lots of grumblings here on our campus. But then, it doesn't do much good to unionize and agitate for better pay while your state is closing schools left and right due to budget cuts.
There is nothing stopping your mom and her like-minded colleagues from starting up another union.
And, I say again, I'm moving to another state. In these parts, they call it "brain drain." In my house, we call it "common sense."
There is nothing stopping your mom and her like-minded colleagues from starting up another union.
he he, you kidding? if you decide to go against the teacher's union you better be ready for a hell of a fight. the only reason i mention that my dad's a lawyer is that if he weren't, she wouldn't have been able to afford to go against them. low wages and all.
i'll have to talk to her about what it was, something about being able to work while pregnant, when she could take her leave. retirement stuff as well.
the teacher's union seems to go out of their way to keep teaching from being competitive, and i know they've worked to stop the idea of pay based on skill vs. pay based on tenure/classes taken.
[B]he he, you kidding? if you decide to go against the teacher's union you better be ready for a hell of a fight.
That doesn't mean that she isn't free to do it.
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the only reason i mention that my dad's a lawyer is that if he weren't, she wouldn't have been able to afford to go against them. low wages and all.
Are you suggesting that teachers don't make enough money to afford adequate representation in court? Sounds like they ought to band together and form some sort of, I don't know, union or something, so that they might be able to use their collective power to fight for people who can't [afford to] fight for themselves (see above).
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i'll have to talk to her about what it was, something about being able to work while pregnant, when she could take her leave. retirement stuff as well.
Specifics of why your mother had to sue her own union to keep her job would be helpful. This is not a dig or anything. But given the way you've set it up, something doesn't sound right.
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the teacher's union seems to go out of their way to keep teaching from being competitive, and i know they've worked to stop the idea of pay based on skill vs. pay based on tenure/classes taken.
I don't know about the first (although I assume I'd disagree with you), but as for the second, it's a matter of assessing "skill" against "classes taken." I know plenty of people who are horrible teachers who have taken lots of classes. The problem is one of settling on a valid means of teacher evaluation. And that is no easy matter.
Comments
Originally posted by Scott
About pay ... how many days off a year does the average teacher get?
You think all teachers are PAID during the summers? I'd be happy to show you the $500 paycheck I got for teaching two weeks in May.
Cheers
Scott
But you know the whole, summers and all major holidays off, sticks a thorn in my side when people start saying that teachers should get paid a lot.
How many teachers are asked to cover a pager over a holiday or weekend?
Originally posted by Scott
Most teachers are on salary.
The issue is not whether or not they're on salary. The issue is whether that salary is paid over a 10 or a 12-month year. I'm sure that most folks can stretch the salary out over 12 months, but when you're not making all that much to begin with, that's not exactly an enticing proposition....
But you know the whole, summers and all major holidays off, sticks a thorn in my side when people start saying that teachers should get paid a lot.
I'm sorry that you feel that way. Really. Perhaps you should ask some teachers how many hours they put in a week on averagefor crappy pay (about which I wrote earlier) before you voice this opinion at your local PTA meeting?
How many teachers are asked to cover a pager over a holiday or weekend?
I have no idea. If more people who are requested to do so would refuse, perhaps so many people wouldn't have to. I mean, it's one thing for me to put in extra hours with my students because I believe it serves a greater good; it's another thing entirely for a company to expect that I will be at its beck and call simply because it signs my paycheck.
Cheers
Scott
Edit: My wife just read this and said "Hellloooo??? How often do I answer student email all day long? At all hours of the day?"
I find teachers to be some of the biggest cry babies in the world and they get summes and every major holiday off. Cry me a river.
Originally posted by Scott
Well I work in a hospital so ... you know ... I'm dedicated.
I find teachers to be some of the biggest cry babies in the world and they get summes and every major holiday off. Cry me a river.
I worked as a grunt in hospitals for years (mostly radiology and ER stuff). I know what kind of hours you're talking about (I routinely worked on weekends from 5:30 am until 2:00 am). No holidays off. No weekends off. Believe me, I understand. I've been spit on by drugged-out AIDS patients who came into the ER. I've cleaned the shit off the CT table when someone died on it. I've been punched by patients. I've restrained patients. I've seen people seriously injured by patients. I've helped work on patients who were coding. I did all of this for minimum wage. But that's beside the point.
The point(s) are this:
1) This isn't a pissing contest. No one's saying you don't work hard or deserve more time off. Perhaps you should agitate for it? Or find another line of work, if you think it's so bad?
2) If you don't like the summers off thing, go talk to the farmers. So far as I understand it, we have so many holidays here off because the kids are often needed for farm work. If you live in a heavy agricultural area (like I do), this would be READILY apparent. I'd be happy to teach for 12 months out of the year (and believe me, we desperately need it) if I were going to be paid for it. But that will never, ever happen in this country. And not because the teachers want summers "off."
3) If we really value education, shouldn't we do everything we can to get the best and brightest our country has to offer in the classrooms? Doesn't that make sense? Shouldn't we pay them well, which, even considering it's over a 9-10 month scale, we don't? Shouldn't we make the work SOOOOO lucrative that people who would otherwise go into other professions might take up teaching?
I was going to continue, but I'll just end it here. I'm interested, however, to see what SDW has to say about this.
Cheers
Scott
Anyway all of this skirts the biggest obstical to good teachers today IMO. The teachers union. Bad teachers stay ... good teachers leave.
Originally posted by Scott
I try not work with real people.
I swear to god I don't know what that means. But to turn your last argument back on you, if you haven't been shit on, pissed on, spit upon, or punched recently by a patient, cry me a river.
Anyway all of this skirts the biggest obstical to good teachers today IMO. The teachers union. Bad teachers stay ... good teachers leave.
Parroting Limbaugh or Boortz or Hannity on this issue doesn't make your case. The teachers' union attempts to ensure that teachers can bargain collectively for the best benefits and pay that they can get. Bad teachers should go. Yes. Absolutely. But firing them and hiring equally incompetent people isn't the answer. The answer is getting the best and the brightest to go into the profession.
Cheers
Scott
Originally posted by pfflam
I'm teaching summer school because I would be broke if I didn't.
I was scheduled to teach it (and man was I happy!) but had to back out here at the last minute because my wife and I got jobs in another state.
Cheers
Scott
Originally posted by midwinter
...
Parroting Limbaugh or Boortz or Hannity on this issue doesn't make your case.
It would be hard for me to do that because I don't listen to any of those three. I don't even know who the middle guy is.
Originally posted by Scott
It would be hard for me to do that because I don't listen to any of those three. I don't even know who the middle guy is.
Oh dear lord! Even as a lefty I LOOOOVE listening to Neil Boortz! He's a straight-up libertarian, so far as I can tell. And he recently pissed off Bill O'Reilly, which makes him aces in my book.
Cheers
Scott
Originally posted by midwinter
I was scheduled to teach it (and man was I happy!) but had to back out here at the last minute because my wife and I got jobs in another state.
Cheers
Scott
My wife and I also got another job in another state . . .
and we bought our first house . . . . . all reasons for needing cash.
Originally posted by pfflam
My wife and I also got another job in another state . . .
and we bought our first house . . . . . all reasons for needing cash.
We're lucky. My wife will be drawing, for July and August, a salary from both her former employer and her new employer (all part of having her salary spread out over 12 months rather than 10). Me? I'm an unemployed and flat-effing-broke house-husband at the moment!
What do you teach?
Cheers
Scott
Originally posted by Scott
I wish my wife could get a job in another state.
Well she CAN'T! The teachers' union has expressly forbidden it!
Cheers
Scott
The teachers' union attempts to ensure that teachers can bargain collectively for the best benefits and pay that they can get.
that's a load of crap. the teacher's union is out for the teacher's union, not the teachers. my mom got screwed over by them a number of times. my dad is an attorney, he had to take them to court to allow her to work.
they sell the teachers out constantly in order to keep the people who suck but have been there a long time from getting tossed on their cans.
are any of the teachers here actually happen with their Union? maybe it's different in other states/districts, but i know most teachers my mom knew were not happy with their Union.
Originally posted by alcimedes
[B]that's a load of crap. the teacher's union is out for the teacher's union, not the teachers.
So, you're saying that the teachers' union is out to protect itself, which in turn protects the collective bargaining power of the teachers as a whole? Then I agree with you.
my mom got screwed over by them a number of times. my dad is an attorney, he had to take them to court to allow her to work.
Since I don't know any of the details involved in this about why your mother was "screwed over" and had to sue in order to be "allow[ed] . . . to work," I won't comment. Your dad being a lawyer has no bearing on this point. My dad's a psychiatric counselor.
they sell the teachers out constantly in order to keep the people who suck but have been there a long time from getting tossed on their cans.
Now, does this make any sense to you? Are you sure that this is their only concern?
are any of the teachers here actually happen with their Union? maybe it's different in other states/districts, but i know most teachers my mom knew were not happy with their Union.
I live in a right-to-be-fired state, so no. But there are lots and lots of grumblings here on our campus. But then, it doesn't do much good to unionize and agitate for better pay while your state is closing schools left and right due to budget cuts.
There is nothing stopping your mom and her like-minded colleagues from starting up another union.
And, I say again, I'm moving to another state. In these parts, they call it "brain drain." In my house, we call it "common sense."
Cheers
Scott
There is nothing stopping your mom and her like-minded colleagues from starting up another union.
he he, you kidding? if you decide to go against the teacher's union you better be ready for a hell of a fight. the only reason i mention that my dad's a lawyer is that if he weren't, she wouldn't have been able to afford to go against them. low wages and all.
i'll have to talk to her about what it was, something about being able to work while pregnant, when she could take her leave. retirement stuff as well.
the teacher's union seems to go out of their way to keep teaching from being competitive, and i know they've worked to stop the idea of pay based on skill vs. pay based on tenure/classes taken.
Originally posted by alcimedes
[B]he he, you kidding? if you decide to go against the teacher's union you better be ready for a hell of a fight.
That doesn't mean that she isn't free to do it.
the only reason i mention that my dad's a lawyer is that if he weren't, she wouldn't have been able to afford to go against them. low wages and all.
Are you suggesting that teachers don't make enough money to afford adequate representation in court? Sounds like they ought to band together and form some sort of, I don't know, union or something, so that they might be able to use their collective power to fight for people who can't [afford to] fight for themselves (see above).
i'll have to talk to her about what it was, something about being able to work while pregnant, when she could take her leave. retirement stuff as well.
Specifics of why your mother had to sue her own union to keep her job would be helpful. This is not a dig or anything. But given the way you've set it up, something doesn't sound right.
the teacher's union seems to go out of their way to keep teaching from being competitive, and i know they've worked to stop the idea of pay based on skill vs. pay based on tenure/classes taken.
I don't know about the first (although I assume I'd disagree with you), but as for the second, it's a matter of assessing "skill" against "classes taken." I know plenty of people who are horrible teachers who have taken lots of classes. The problem is one of settling on a valid means of teacher evaluation. And that is no easy matter.
Cheers
Scott