All of you are right: Israel has not really made any serious moves toward leaving the West Bank and Gaza, and is unlikely to do it and probably should not do it without indications that this would be a workable and secure long-term resolution (which it would not be). Similarly, Palestinians have not really indicated that they would be satisfied if a Palestinian state were set up in the West Bank and Gaza - nor should they be so satisfied - nor have they shown how such a state could be a viable and secure entity (as opposed to a seething cauldron and a launching pad for further attacks). I and some others were right in saying this roadmap was a map to nowhere.
Time to stop beating each other over the head and consider again other ways to resolve this situation. In my view, there is really only one viable way ? as difficult and idealistic as it might initially sound. Click here for a reminder. If somebody comes up with a better idea fine, but I have yet to hear it.
Your obviously has very little grasp of this yourself.
From the roadmap: "Phase I: Ending Terror And Violence, Normalizing Palestinian Life, and Building Palestinian Institutions -- Present to May 2003"
(...)
"Palestinian leadership issues unequivocal statement reiterating Israel?s right to exist in peace and security and calling for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire to end armed activity and all acts of violence against Israelis anywhere. All official Palestinian institutions end incitement against Israel."
Do you see the word ceasefire?
I see the words unconditional ceasefire...which of course was never even sought, much less implemented.
Quote:
Originally posted by New
As of right now the PA has taken steps to implement all of the phase I demands, with (I grant you) only partial success, but Israel has fail to implement even one.
Exactly what steps has the PA taken?
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Israel has not:
- Officially committed two a two state solution.
- Withdrawn to the 2000 occupation lines.
- Halted attacks against civilians.
- Reopened palestinian institutions in Jerusalem.
- Halted settlement activity and dismanteled settlements built since 2001.
Two steps become one so that a step may be denied. - Halted settlement activity and dismanteled settlements built since 2001. should read - Halted settlement activity - dismanteled settlements built since 2001.
Here then it becomes obvious that while settlements haven't been halted, obviously only to anyone who isn't just denying reality that Israel has indeed removed some settlements, though not all. A step in the right direction and a beginning of a critical step in the road map.
I asked you to feel free to go look it up, and you didn't bother. Now that someone else has proved you wrong, good. Maybe you'll listen to them.
Proved wrong? When, where?
Have settlements been removed? If yes, then that is a concrete step. Does Israel need to do more to complete that one step..obviously. Do they need to move onto the next step and freeze settlements? Hell yes! Does the PA need to start implementing even a single step? YES!
Denying that Israel has indeed removed settlements is just another in a list of things people like to deny about the people of Israel I guess. Ernst Zündel feels much the same way you do, I would guess.
You said a ceasefire was never part of the road map. You're wrong. You're hiding behind semantics. It's sad.
Single clause calling for an unconditional ceasefire is not fullfilled by a temporary cease fire that itselve was never really adhered to. That's not semantics, that just observation.
Two distinct clauses, 1 calling for freezing of settlements, one calling for removal of settlements. The one calling for removal was starting to be be implemented.
You are trying to blend those 2 clauses together, to show Israel wasn't acting on the road map..that is playing word games.
As for games, remember, our little exchange here started with you refuting my claim that Israel had removed settlements. You claimed that not Israel hadn't removed settlements, but instead they had removed sttlements and built others. Obviously, even by your own statement.they had removed settlements. It seems odd that you then try to deny that the removed sttlements by referring to their having removed settlements.
And beyond the immorality of the act itself. we must consider the pointlessness of it. This leads to nothing but more death on both sides. If there is injustice - and there is - then non-violent protest will be more effective.
And the goals themselves must be reconsidered. To think that the Jews will leave Israel or Palestine is unrealistic and wrong. To think that a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza can be viable and sufficient is unrealistic and wrong. The objective must be peaceful coexistence in a single territory.
Single clause calling for an unconditional ceasefire is not fullfilled by a temporary cease fire that itselve was never really adhered to. That's not semantics, that just observation.
Two distinct clauses, 1 calling for freezing of settlements, one calling for removal of settlements. The one calling for removal was starting to be be implemented.
You are trying to blend those 2 clauses together, to show Israel wasn't acting on the road map..that is playing word games.
As for games, remember, our little exchange here started with you refuting my claim that Israel had removed settlements. You claimed that not Israel hadn't removed settlements, but instead they had removed sttlements and built others. Obviously, even by your own statement.they had removed settlements. It seems odd that you then try to deny that the removed sttlements by referring to their having removed settlements.
You remind me of Scott arguing that we had no proof that a bank was going to loan Iraq money and charge interest.
You lose, I'm sorry. Did Israel remove every settlement since 2001? Did they end all violence or incitement of violence? Those were the first steps on the roadmap. They failed. Sorry.
I see the words unconditional ceasefire...which of course was never even sought, much less implemented.
You're not this stupid are you. Read the words just before: "calling for (...)". The ceasefire was implemented to a surpising degree.
Quote:
Exactly what steps has the PA taken?
Well they did apoint Abu Masen as prime minster (ponit in the roadmap), who then went on to start negotations with all 13 of the palestinian factions on a ceasfire. (point in the roadmap). They also started arresting millitants, including the ones who had been hiding in Arafats HQ since the israeli incursions in Rammallah several months ago.
More importantly, the PA were to takes steps to restructure their power structure. (they have by apointing new ministers and transfering more power to their legislative councile.) They were to prepare for new, democratic elections and start drafting a constitution. (A third draft was recently released).
Lastly they were to issue a clear statement acknowledging Israels right to exsist. Israel was to do the same. Right now the PA is the only side that has issued statements close to this.
Quote:
Two steps become one so that a step may be denied. - Halted settlement activity and dismanteled settlements built since 2001. should read - Halted settlement activity - dismanteled settlements built since 2001.
Stop playing with the words. None of the two have been close to completed. Settlement activity is not halted. Some where torn down. More new ones have been set up. No expansion of current settlements has been stoped. At all.
It is usually helpful to actually study the stuff before you start talking about it.
The two last attacks are, however, very expected. They were a respons to the assasination attempt by Israel on Hamas' Spiritual leader Sheik Yassin. Israel knew these attacks would be comming.
The CNN article is pretty badly written and fails totally to convey that 8 of the killed were soliders in a targeted attack on an israeli army base.
You remind me of Scott arguing that we had no proof that a bank was going to loan Iraq money and charge interest.
You lose, I'm sorry. Did Israel remove every settlement since 2001? Did they end all violence or incitement of violence? Those were the first steps on the roadmap. They failed. Sorry.
I lose what? I stated simply that Israel removed some settlements. You claim that is wrong...sorry, but you need a reality check. Did I ever claim they removed every settlement? Lying about what I said, doesn't make you right. Did I say the ended all violence? No again.
Very simply bunge, I said they removed some settlements. You claim this is false. Just more denials about the people of Israel from bunge.
You just can't admit when you are wrong. And again, for the record, I wrote that Israel removed some setlements..please show me how that statement is wrong...you can't.
Stop playing with the words. None of the two have been close to completed. Settlement activity is not halted. Some where torn down. More new ones have been set up. No expansion of current settlements has been stoped. At all.
Once again, I never said that the removed all settlements or froze new settlements. I claimed they had started to remove settlements, that the had removed some settlements. You argue against youreself if you and bunge want to continually argue as though I cliamed otherwise. And it is important to recoqnise that the to are separate steps.
As for the PA side of the road map, I suppose I erred. I looks like the did start to implement some of their obligations. So did Israel.
bungy wants to claim that I said Israel fullfilled all of the road map, but I can't see where I ever said that.
"Israel has shown good faith by commencing its roadmap commitments. The Palestinians as usual have done nothing."
(If I am putting words in your mouth tell me as I don't wish to distort your position. I believe this to be fair).
We see that this is not the case:
The Palestinian commitments you acknowledge have happened (and good for you to be man enough to aknowledge them, no irony) aren't backhanded avoidance. That is, they're arrests and reforms ... no reforms that undermine the commitments have also been made. Suicide bombings have continued, but you can not doubt that Abu Mazen's words and deeds have tried to reduce them. Please don't tell me you disagree with that, oh please. The movement is forward, no steps back from those making the commitments.
On the other hand, yes, Israel's taken down some settlements. And at the same time built some more.
Tell me, does that show good faith?
Israel has continued to build settlements and confiscate land.
One could argue that this is one step, but I suggest we not pursue it. As it comes down to interpretation of a comma Vs. a punctuation mark.
Heres the full text from the roadmap:
Quote:
GOI immediately dismantles settlement outposts erected since March 2001. Consistent with the Mitchell Report, GOI freezes all settlement activity (including natural growth of settlements).
The road map did call for the removal and freezing of settlements. The Israeli's had started to remove setllements. That was on the roadmap. Did Israel fully implement the roadmap? No. Did the make real steps in beginning the roadmap? Yes. Did the Palestinians take even a single step on the road map? No.
This was the basis of your argument Tulkas, and you have to admit now that you were completely wrong. Because both sides were taking steps, the attacks from Israel were damaging to the process and a severe danger for overall peace in the Mid-East and subsequently the world.
Comments
Originally posted by Tulkas
First, a ceasefire by the palestinians was never a part of the road map...so, you are still grasping to show how they followed the roadmap.
I asked you to feel free to go look it up, and you didn't bother. Now that someone else has proved you wrong, good. Maybe you'll listen to them.
Originally posted by New
Time for some graphics:
People have to be blindly stupid to think this is acceptable.
Originally posted by bunge
People have to be blindly stupid to think this is acceptable.
Back to the unnecessary insults again.
Time to stop beating each other over the head and consider again other ways to resolve this situation. In my view, there is really only one viable way ? as difficult and idealistic as it might initially sound. Click here for a reminder. If somebody comes up with a better idea fine, but I have yet to hear it.
Originally posted by New
Your obviously has very little grasp of this yourself.
From the roadmap: "Phase I: Ending Terror And Violence, Normalizing Palestinian Life, and Building Palestinian Institutions -- Present to May 2003"
(...)
"Palestinian leadership issues unequivocal statement reiterating Israel?s right to exist in peace and security and calling for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire to end armed activity and all acts of violence against Israelis anywhere. All official Palestinian institutions end incitement against Israel."
Do you see the word ceasefire?
I see the words unconditional ceasefire...which of course was never even sought, much less implemented.
Originally posted by New
As of right now the PA has taken steps to implement all of the phase I demands, with (I grant you) only partial success, but Israel has fail to implement even one.
Exactly what steps has the PA taken?
Originally posted by New
Israel has not:
- Officially committed two a two state solution.
- Withdrawn to the 2000 occupation lines.
- Halted attacks against civilians.
- Reopened palestinian institutions in Jerusalem.
- Halted settlement activity and dismanteled settlements built since 2001.
Two steps become one so that a step may be denied. - Halted settlement activity and dismanteled settlements built since 2001. should read - Halted settlement activity - dismanteled settlements built since 2001.
Here then it becomes obvious that while settlements haven't been halted, obviously only to anyone who isn't just denying reality that Israel has indeed removed some settlements, though not all. A step in the right direction and a beginning of a critical step in the road map.
Originally posted by bunge
I asked you to feel free to go look it up, and you didn't bother. Now that someone else has proved you wrong, good. Maybe you'll listen to them.
Proved wrong? When, where?
Have settlements been removed? If yes, then that is a concrete step. Does Israel need to do more to complete that one step..obviously. Do they need to move onto the next step and freeze settlements? Hell yes! Does the PA need to start implementing even a single step? YES!
Denying that Israel has indeed removed settlements is just another in a list of things people like to deny about the people of Israel I guess. Ernst Zündel feels much the same way you do, I would guess.
Originally posted by BR
Back to the unnecessary insults again.
Who did I insult?
Originally posted by Tulkas
Proved wrong? When, where?
You said a ceasefire was never part of the road map. You're wrong. You're hiding behind semantics. It's sad.
Originally posted by bunge
You said a ceasefire was never part of the road map. You're wrong. You're hiding behind semantics. It's sad.
Single clause calling for an unconditional ceasefire is not fullfilled by a temporary cease fire that itselve was never really adhered to. That's not semantics, that just observation.
Two distinct clauses, 1 calling for freezing of settlements, one calling for removal of settlements. The one calling for removal was starting to be be implemented.
You are trying to blend those 2 clauses together, to show Israel wasn't acting on the road map..that is playing word games.
As for games, remember, our little exchange here started with you refuting my claim that Israel had removed settlements. You claimed that not Israel hadn't removed settlements, but instead they had removed sttlements and built others. Obviously, even by your own statement.they had removed settlements. It seems odd that you then try to deny that the removed sttlements by referring to their having removed settlements.
Originally posted by Outsider
This is exactly what is a threat to world peace. This should not be tolerated under any circumstances.
And beyond the immorality of the act itself. we must consider the pointlessness of it. This leads to nothing but more death on both sides. If there is injustice - and there is - then non-violent protest will be more effective.
And the goals themselves must be reconsidered. To think that the Jews will leave Israel or Palestine is unrealistic and wrong. To think that a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza can be viable and sufficient is unrealistic and wrong. The objective must be peaceful coexistence in a single territory.
Originally posted by Tulkas
Single clause calling for an unconditional ceasefire is not fullfilled by a temporary cease fire that itselve was never really adhered to. That's not semantics, that just observation.
Two distinct clauses, 1 calling for freezing of settlements, one calling for removal of settlements. The one calling for removal was starting to be be implemented.
You are trying to blend those 2 clauses together, to show Israel wasn't acting on the road map..that is playing word games.
As for games, remember, our little exchange here started with you refuting my claim that Israel had removed settlements. You claimed that not Israel hadn't removed settlements, but instead they had removed sttlements and built others. Obviously, even by your own statement.they had removed settlements. It seems odd that you then try to deny that the removed sttlements by referring to their having removed settlements.
You remind me of Scott arguing that we had no proof that a bank was going to loan Iraq money and charge interest.
You lose, I'm sorry. Did Israel remove every settlement since 2001? Did they end all violence or incitement of violence? Those were the first steps on the roadmap. They failed. Sorry.
I see the words unconditional ceasefire...which of course was never even sought, much less implemented.
You're not this stupid are you. Read the words just before: "calling for (...)". The ceasefire was implemented to a surpising degree.
Exactly what steps has the PA taken?
Well they did apoint Abu Masen as prime minster (ponit in the roadmap), who then went on to start negotations with all 13 of the palestinian factions on a ceasfire. (point in the roadmap). They also started arresting millitants, including the ones who had been hiding in Arafats HQ since the israeli incursions in Rammallah several months ago.
More importantly, the PA were to takes steps to restructure their power structure. (they have by apointing new ministers and transfering more power to their legislative councile.) They were to prepare for new, democratic elections and start drafting a constitution. (A third draft was recently released).
Lastly they were to issue a clear statement acknowledging Israels right to exsist. Israel was to do the same. Right now the PA is the only side that has issued statements close to this.
Two steps become one so that a step may be denied. - Halted settlement activity and dismanteled settlements built since 2001. should read - Halted settlement activity - dismanteled settlements built since 2001.
Stop playing with the words. None of the two have been close to completed. Settlement activity is not halted. Some where torn down. More new ones have been set up. No expansion of current settlements has been stoped. At all.
It is usually helpful to actually study the stuff before you start talking about it.
Originally posted by Outsider
This is exactly what is a threat to world peace. This should not be tolerated under any circumstances.
I agree, its horrible.
The two last attacks are, however, very expected. They were a respons to the assasination attempt by Israel on Hamas' Spiritual leader Sheik Yassin. Israel knew these attacks would be comming.
The CNN article is pretty badly written and fails totally to convey that 8 of the killed were soliders in a targeted attack on an israeli army base.
Anyway, it's very tragic.
Originally posted by bunge
You remind me of Scott arguing that we had no proof that a bank was going to loan Iraq money and charge interest.
You lose, I'm sorry. Did Israel remove every settlement since 2001? Did they end all violence or incitement of violence? Those were the first steps on the roadmap. They failed. Sorry.
I lose what? I stated simply that Israel removed some settlements. You claim that is wrong...sorry, but you need a reality check. Did I ever claim they removed every settlement? Lying about what I said, doesn't make you right. Did I say the ended all violence? No again.
Very simply bunge, I said they removed some settlements. You claim this is false. Just more denials about the people of Israel from bunge.
You just can't admit when you are wrong. And again, for the record, I wrote that Israel removed some setlements..please show me how that statement is wrong...you can't.
Originally posted by New
Stop playing with the words. None of the two have been close to completed. Settlement activity is not halted. Some where torn down. More new ones have been set up. No expansion of current settlements has been stoped. At all.
Once again, I never said that the removed all settlements or froze new settlements. I claimed they had started to remove settlements, that the had removed some settlements. You argue against youreself if you and bunge want to continually argue as though I cliamed otherwise. And it is important to recoqnise that the to are separate steps.
As for the PA side of the road map, I suppose I erred. I looks like the did start to implement some of their obligations. So did Israel.
bungy wants to claim that I said Israel fullfilled all of the road map, but I can't see where I ever said that.
It is no distortion to put your position as:
"Israel has shown good faith by commencing its roadmap commitments. The Palestinians as usual have done nothing."
(If I am putting words in your mouth tell me as I don't wish to distort your position. I believe this to be fair).
We see that this is not the case:
The Palestinian commitments you acknowledge have happened (and good for you to be man enough to aknowledge them, no irony) aren't backhanded avoidance. That is, they're arrests and reforms ... no reforms that undermine the commitments have also been made. Suicide bombings have continued, but you can not doubt that Abu Mazen's words and deeds have tried to reduce them. Please don't tell me you disagree with that, oh please. The movement is forward, no steps back from those making the commitments.
On the other hand, yes, Israel's taken down some settlements. And at the same time built some more.
Tell me, does that show good faith?
Israel has continued to build settlements and confiscate land.
Does that show good faith?
Heres the full text from the roadmap:
GOI immediately dismantles settlement outposts erected since March 2001. Consistent with the Mitchell Report, GOI freezes all settlement activity (including natural growth of settlements).
Originally posted by Tulkas
The road map did call for the removal and freezing of settlements. The Israeli's had started to remove setllements. That was on the roadmap. Did Israel fully implement the roadmap? No. Did the make real steps in beginning the roadmap? Yes. Did the Palestinians take even a single step on the road map? No.
This was the basis of your argument Tulkas, and you have to admit now that you were completely wrong. Because both sides were taking steps, the attacks from Israel were damaging to the process and a severe danger for overall peace in the Mid-East and subsequently the world.