It's not anti semitism if you're anti-zionist, dontcha know?
Can't say as I disagree with that, though plenty of anti-semities avail themselves of the semantics so that they can attcak jews under the guise of politics.
As for Isreal being a threat? Hmmm... Needs some consideration. Where are the Arab Muslim theocracies when it comes to distributing water and wealth, or promoting the equality of women, or even religious tolerance? I'd say even with the (at times) heavy handed treatment of Palestinians, Isreal still comes out well ahead of any other nation in the mid east on the last score -- and far, far ahead of them on all the others. Egypt and Jordan, which had made progress in the past, seem to be regressing quickly.
So a nation of people that promote gender equality, industry, and the distribution of wealth amongst its people, is somehow a greater threat than the milieu of regimes that hoard oil money, subjugate women, promote zenophobia and iconoclastism, and seek military might at the expense of mass starvations, this nation, alone, in the mid-east is the major threat to world peace?
Yes, you can play word games if you like. If they remove two settlements and add six, you can say they've removed settlements.
You are the only one playing word games. If they remove a stellement, then you can say they removed a settlement, and that's about it. They did so. Period. That was at least a start of an actual step layed out in the roadmap. The roadmap called for them to start dismantling and they did.
The Palestinian side did not even begin a single step of the road map...but Israel is still the threat, right bunge?
Now they're attacking religious leaders. Is JP2 next?
A religious leader calling for the removal of the "Israeli Entity" and spritual head of a gang of murdering thugs... How is he less of a target than other leaders of Hamas?
Besides, according to Sedgy, these terrorist groups really aren't religious in nature, they just use religion as a cover...so I guess he really was just another military leader, fit for targeting.
You are the only one playing word games. If they remove a stellement, then you can say they removed a settlement, and that's about it.
But you're unwilling to admit that they're increasing the overall number and size of the settlements. That's about it. That's not on the roadmap. Sorry.
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
A religious leader calling for the removal of the "Israeli Entity" and spritual head of a gang of murdering thugs... How is he less of a target than other leaders of Hamas?
Did this guy say those things? Link?
The world may be better off with him dead. But the world would be better off with Israel not assassinating people in the fashion that they do.
Egypt and Jordan, which had made progress in the past, seem to be regressing quickly.
Regression is the key. A lot of the mid-east is regressing, and creating Palestine could have been (hopefully still could be) a turning point towards a return to peace. As long as Israel continues to thwart a Palestinian state, the rest of the mid-east is going to regress.
The Western World offers them absolutely nothing but death and trouble, at least in their eyes. They have no evidence that 'progress', or progression towards western society, can do them any bit of good.
But you're unwilling to admit that they're increasing the overall number and size of the settlements. That's about it. That's not on the roadmap. Sorry.
The road map did call for the removal and freezing of settlements. The Israeli's had started to remove setllements. That was on the roadmap. Did Israel fully implement the roadmap? No. Did the make real steps in beginning the roadmap? Yes. Did the Palestinians take even a single step on the road map? No.
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Did this guy say those things? Link?
From your own article: "Our people will not raise the white flag. The (Israeli) entity will be removed." -Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, Spiritual leader of Hamas.
Regression is the key. A lot of the mid-east is regressing, and creating Palestine could have been (hopefully still could be) a turning point towards a return to peace. As long as Israel continues to thwart a Palestinian state, the rest of the mid-east is going to regress.
The creation of a Palestinian state would act as a catylyst to spark further anti-western feelings in the mid-east. The Palestinian issue has simply been used as an excuse for the feelings so far. Once Palestine actually exists, it will show the region that the West can be defeated, and that Arafat and his kind have suceeded in accomplishing the first step in their attempt to remove the state of Israel. It is no secret that the fight for the creation of a Palestinian state has been a tactic in the overall battle to remove Israel and score a symbolic point against the West.
Having said that, I support the creation of a Palestinian state, if only to show that attacks against israel and other western targets will not stop, or even slacken. All the empty arguements that Israel has been the instigator will be made void once the Palestinian state exists.
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
The Western World offers them absolutely nothing but death and trouble, at least in their eyes. They have no evidence that 'progress', or progression towards western society, can do them any bit of good.
Compare to what their own brethern offer them, the west offeres them everything. The US provides more money to them for humantirian assistance than ALL other Arab and muslim countries combined. The other ARab states ignore them or treat them as pariahs, except when they can use them and their cause as pawns. The other Arab states allow them to starve in refugee camps.
The road map did call for the removal and freezing of settlements. The Israeli's had started to remove setllements. That was on the roadmap. Did Israel fully implement the roadmap? No. Did the make real steps in beginning the roadmap? Yes. Did the Palestinians take even a single step on the road map? No.
See, you're just being silly. If they are increasing their total number and/or square mileage of settlements, the fact that Sharon can get on TV and say 'we've dismantled a settlement' doesn't mean squat. It's just disingenuous to pretend that Israel isn't increasing their settlements.
You want to play a semantic game and it's not worthwhile. No matter what language you use, Israel is increasing the number of settlements.
See, you're just being silly. If they are increasing their total number and/or square mileage of settlements, the fact that Sharon can get on TV and say 'we've dismantled a settlement' doesn't mean squat. It's just disingenuous to pretend that Israel isn't increasing their settlements.
You want to play a semantic game and it's not worthwhile. No matter what language you use, Israel is increasing the number of settlements.
Were they removing settlements? Yes or no. Did the road map call for this? Yes.
Did they fully 100% implement the roadmap yet and stop all settlers and settlements? No, but at least they took a step. You seem to expect Israel would stop all settlements entirely as per the road map, without some recipriocating action by the palestinian side. You expect them to just blindly surrender. They've done that before.
They fact that Sharon can go on TV and say they removed a setlement is because the removed a stellement. It's that simple. Twist it anyway other way you need in order to continue blaming the Israeli side.
As for the my opinion on the Arab world I just don't know. I keep trying to think of what is the cultural key that the rest of the world had that led to a greater stability. Is the contrary nature so ingrained into Arab/Islamic mindset that stability in that region will be near impossible? Even the bloody coups and revolutions of South America and South East Asia seem like a play ground brawl compared to the mess in the Middle East.
(edit)
But then again, despite my feeling of comraderie to the Brits, I feel a lot of this mess was due to their Imperialistic history.
I am amazed that in this day and age you can seriously suggest the extermination of a political opponent (as Sharon has done with Arafat) and nobody blinks an eyelid. You do not achive peace by killng the people you have a quarrel with, but by negotiating with them. If at first you dont succeed, then you try and try again. In the UK we now have relative peace in Northern Ireland not because we managed to kill all the IRA but because we negotiated with them.
In the UK we now have relative peace in Northern Ireland not because we managed to kill all the IRA but because we negotiated with them.
After how many hundreds of years? Part of the problem is that those striving to make the Israelis and Palestinians play nice don't realize it make take a couple hundred years. Time enough for both sides to forget what they are fighting about, or at least have the signigicance of the cause to die a little.
Were they removing settlements? Yes or no. Did the road map call for this? Yes.
Did they fully 100% implement the roadmap yet and stop all settlers and settlements? No, but at least they took a step. You seem to expect Israel would stop all settlements entirely as per the road map, without some recipriocating action by the palestinian side. You expect them to just blindly surrender. They've done that before.
They fact that Sharon can go on TV and say they removed a setlement is because the removed a stellement. It's that simple. Twist it anyway other way you need in order to continue blaming the Israeli side.
You obviously don't understand. I'm not saying Israel should dismantle all settlements. I'm saying they shouldn't add new ones. That's what they're doing. You can't seem to admit that.
Here's my question, Why the Hell aren't the Palestinians and the Arab world railing against Jordan? From my readings Jordan makes up a greater portion of what was historically Palestine than Israel does. Anyone care to explain?
Here's my question, Why the Hell aren't the Palestinians and the Arab world railing against Jordan? From my readings Jordan makes up a greater portion of what was historically Palestine than Israel does. Anyone care to explain?
Jordan did some nasty things. What is Jordan doing now? What is Israel doing now? Not really comparable.
Comments
Originally posted by bunge
Actually I think this is not true. They might remove some settlements, but they're increasing their land mass.
It's not true that they were removing settlements, because they were removing settlements?
Originally posted by Tulkas
It's not true that they were removing settlements, because they were removing settlements?
Yes, you can play word games if you like. If they remove two settlements and add six, you can say they've removed settlements.
Originally posted by Scott
I would have thought this anti-Semitic thread would have been closed by now?
As is par for the course, you would have thought wrong. In more ways than one.
Can't say as I disagree with that, though plenty of anti-semities avail themselves of the semantics so that they can attcak jews under the guise of politics.
As for Isreal being a threat? Hmmm... Needs some consideration. Where are the Arab Muslim theocracies when it comes to distributing water and wealth, or promoting the equality of women, or even religious tolerance? I'd say even with the (at times) heavy handed treatment of Palestinians, Isreal still comes out well ahead of any other nation in the mid east on the last score -- and far, far ahead of them on all the others. Egypt and Jordan, which had made progress in the past, seem to be regressing quickly.
So a nation of people that promote gender equality, industry, and the distribution of wealth amongst its people, is somehow a greater threat than the milieu of regimes that hoard oil money, subjugate women, promote zenophobia and iconoclastism, and seek military might at the expense of mass starvations, this nation, alone, in the mid-east is the major threat to world peace?
Originally posted by bunge
Yes, you can play word games if you like. If they remove two settlements and add six, you can say they've removed settlements.
You are the only one playing word games. If they remove a stellement, then you can say they removed a settlement, and that's about it. They did so. Period. That was at least a start of an actual step layed out in the roadmap. The roadmap called for them to start dismantling and they did.
The Palestinian side did not even begin a single step of the road map...but Israel is still the threat, right bunge?
Originally posted by bunge
Now they're attacking religious leaders. Is JP2 next?
A religious leader calling for the removal of the "Israeli Entity" and spritual head of a gang of murdering thugs... How is he less of a target than other leaders of Hamas?
Besides, according to Sedgy, these terrorist groups really aren't religious in nature, they just use religion as a cover...so I guess he really was just another military leader, fit for targeting.
Originally posted by Tulkas
You are the only one playing word games. If they remove a stellement, then you can say they removed a settlement, and that's about it.
But you're unwilling to admit that they're increasing the overall number and size of the settlements. That's about it. That's not on the roadmap. Sorry.
Originally posted by Tulkas
A religious leader calling for the removal of the "Israeli Entity" and spritual head of a gang of murdering thugs... How is he less of a target than other leaders of Hamas?
Did this guy say those things? Link?
The world may be better off with him dead. But the world would be better off with Israel not assassinating people in the fashion that they do.
Originally posted by Matsu
Egypt and Jordan, which had made progress in the past, seem to be regressing quickly.
Regression is the key. A lot of the mid-east is regressing, and creating Palestine could have been (hopefully still could be) a turning point towards a return to peace. As long as Israel continues to thwart a Palestinian state, the rest of the mid-east is going to regress.
The Western World offers them absolutely nothing but death and trouble, at least in their eyes. They have no evidence that 'progress', or progression towards western society, can do them any bit of good.
Originally posted by bunge
But you're unwilling to admit that they're increasing the overall number and size of the settlements. That's about it. That's not on the roadmap. Sorry.
The road map did call for the removal and freezing of settlements. The Israeli's had started to remove setllements. That was on the roadmap. Did Israel fully implement the roadmap? No. Did the make real steps in beginning the roadmap? Yes. Did the Palestinians take even a single step on the road map? No.
Originally posted by bunge
Did this guy say those things? Link?
From your own article: "Our people will not raise the white flag. The (Israeli) entity will be removed." -Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, Spiritual leader of Hamas.
Originally posted by bunge
Regression is the key. A lot of the mid-east is regressing, and creating Palestine could have been (hopefully still could be) a turning point towards a return to peace. As long as Israel continues to thwart a Palestinian state, the rest of the mid-east is going to regress.
The creation of a Palestinian state would act as a catylyst to spark further anti-western feelings in the mid-east. The Palestinian issue has simply been used as an excuse for the feelings so far. Once Palestine actually exists, it will show the region that the West can be defeated, and that Arafat and his kind have suceeded in accomplishing the first step in their attempt to remove the state of Israel. It is no secret that the fight for the creation of a Palestinian state has been a tactic in the overall battle to remove Israel and score a symbolic point against the West.
Having said that, I support the creation of a Palestinian state, if only to show that attacks against israel and other western targets will not stop, or even slacken. All the empty arguements that Israel has been the instigator will be made void once the Palestinian state exists.
Originally posted by bunge
The Western World offers them absolutely nothing but death and trouble, at least in their eyes. They have no evidence that 'progress', or progression towards western society, can do them any bit of good.
Compare to what their own brethern offer them, the west offeres them everything. The US provides more money to them for humantirian assistance than ALL other Arab and muslim countries combined. The other ARab states ignore them or treat them as pariahs, except when they can use them and their cause as pawns. The other Arab states allow them to starve in refugee camps.
Originally posted by Tulkas
The road map did call for the removal and freezing of settlements. The Israeli's had started to remove setllements. That was on the roadmap. Did Israel fully implement the roadmap? No. Did the make real steps in beginning the roadmap? Yes. Did the Palestinians take even a single step on the road map? No.
See, you're just being silly. If they are increasing their total number and/or square mileage of settlements, the fact that Sharon can get on TV and say 'we've dismantled a settlement' doesn't mean squat. It's just disingenuous to pretend that Israel isn't increasing their settlements.
You want to play a semantic game and it's not worthwhile. No matter what language you use, Israel is increasing the number of settlements.
Originally posted by bunge
See, you're just being silly. If they are increasing their total number and/or square mileage of settlements, the fact that Sharon can get on TV and say 'we've dismantled a settlement' doesn't mean squat. It's just disingenuous to pretend that Israel isn't increasing their settlements.
You want to play a semantic game and it's not worthwhile. No matter what language you use, Israel is increasing the number of settlements.
Were they removing settlements? Yes or no. Did the road map call for this? Yes.
Did they fully 100% implement the roadmap yet and stop all settlers and settlements? No, but at least they took a step. You seem to expect Israel would stop all settlements entirely as per the road map, without some recipriocating action by the palestinian side. You expect them to just blindly surrender. They've done that before.
They fact that Sharon can go on TV and say they removed a setlement is because the removed a stellement. It's that simple. Twist it anyway other way you need in order to continue blaming the Israeli side.
As for the my opinion on the Arab world I just don't know. I keep trying to think of what is the cultural key that the rest of the world had that led to a greater stability. Is the contrary nature so ingrained into Arab/Islamic mindset that stability in that region will be near impossible? Even the bloody coups and revolutions of South America and South East Asia seem like a play ground brawl compared to the mess in the Middle East.
(edit)
But then again, despite my feeling of comraderie to the Brits, I feel a lot of this mess was due to their Imperialistic history.
originally posted by musicaltone
In the UK we now have relative peace in Northern Ireland not because we managed to kill all the IRA but because we negotiated with them.
After how many hundreds of years? Part of the problem is that those striving to make the Israelis and Palestinians play nice don't realize it make take a couple hundred years. Time enough for both sides to forget what they are fighting about, or at least have the signigicance of the cause to die a little.
Originally posted by Tulkas
Were they removing settlements? Yes or no. Did the road map call for this? Yes.
Did they fully 100% implement the roadmap yet and stop all settlers and settlements? No, but at least they took a step. You seem to expect Israel would stop all settlements entirely as per the road map, without some recipriocating action by the palestinian side. You expect them to just blindly surrender. They've done that before.
They fact that Sharon can go on TV and say they removed a setlement is because the removed a stellement. It's that simple. Twist it anyway other way you need in order to continue blaming the Israeli side.
You obviously don't understand. I'm not saying Israel should dismantle all settlements. I'm saying they shouldn't add new ones. That's what they're doing. You can't seem to admit that.
Originally posted by LiquidR
Here's my question, Why the Hell aren't the Palestinians and the Arab world railing against Jordan? From my readings Jordan makes up a greater portion of what was historically Palestine than Israel does. Anyone care to explain?
Jordan did some nasty things. What is Jordan doing now? What is Israel doing now? Not really comparable.