Hamas officials say their organization, along with Islamic Jihad and Fatah, are discussing the ceasefire with Palestinian officials but have not yet reached an agreement. Palestinian sources were quoted Wednesday as saying the three organizations had signed a ceasefire document in Damascus, Syria.
bunge lied to promote his agenda. He should be impeached.
So, for the Palestinians to have peace, they must ignore their civilians being targetted and killed? Or because they don't have an official state, there are no true Palestinian civilians to be killed?
Your logic states that Israel can attack while trying to make peace while the Palestinians can't. That's suicide for Palestinians.
No, they have to agreed to stop groups that are specifically targetting civilians and they actually take steps to stopping those groups. That is not suicide, that is what the UN and Europe expect of them. That is what the PA acknoloedges.
Earlier posted by grad student (in another thread)
...until the day comes (in the very distant future) that indeed Israel is defeat-able by a neighboring country. At which point - which I am convinced will come some day - Israel will cease to exist.
Quote:
Later posted by grad student (in this thread)
...and as much as they would like to see the destruction of the jews and israel - they will never see it
Which is it?
In the other thread, I called the earlier quote above one of the most depressing I had recently seen. (I have seen others more depressing since.) However, I fear that Israel really will be destroyed someday unless a real peace is reached. The current roadmap is not the way, and all this killing does not seem ready to stop (Who shot first? - Who can really tell? - How far back do you want to go on that question?)
I will not repeat that elements of what I consider to be the real road to peace. You can read that in the other thread. I'll just say that ethnic nationalism - whether by Arabs, Jews, Irish, Germans, Tamils, Hindus, Russians, or anyone else - is a scourge. Those who support it should reconsider the so-called justice and morality of killing in its name.
I have to wonder with all the anti-Israel tunnel vision here followed up quickly with Hamas blinders what do bunge et al think the Final Solution will be for this problem?
again scott, i find it ironic that you are using these kind of terms.
i think the final solution is palestine being legitimized, including hamas in negotiations, and once doing so, if the violence continues, deal with hamas at that time.
i feel sharon and likud don't want a palestine, legitmate or otherwise, they'd probably even like to see the camp david accords overturned.
i think it's imperative to the peace process that if sharon is involved he has to deal (as in wheel and deal) with hamas.
I have to wonder with all the anti-Israel tunnel vision here followed up quickly with Hamas blinders what do bunge et al think the Final Solution will be for this problem?
Just as Arafat had to be set aside for Israel (and the US) to consider moving foward with the peace process, there's no chance for peace until Sharon is gone. The US should pressure Israel to dump him.
Your entire premise of Israel being the threat is that they broke a ceasefire or pre-empted the essentially-finished ceasefire's "formal announcement".
Legitimizing Hamas would only legitimize terror. At that point you may as well add terror to the Geneva Convention as being an acceptable form or warfare. The biggest mistake in this whole process what legitimizing Afatat and the PLO.
i feel sharon and likud don't want a palestine, legitmate or otherwise, they'd probably even like to see the camp david accords overturned.
i think it's imperative to the peace process that if sharon is involved he has to deal (as in wheel and deal) with hamas.
1. The camp david accords have been overturned - by Arafat who rejected these flatly just like he did in Taba 4 months later...
2. Maybe Sharon needs to deal with hamas - but how can that happen when hamas refuses to deal with him or indeed anyone who is classed as a ZIonist?
for them its - "no talking! ever, not until the complete redemption of our holy occupied lands takes place" with the word occupation referring to the entirety of the land between the river and the sea, not just the post 67 OT...
3. what is there to deal with them about? the positions are diametrically opposed and Hamas claim to renounce any possible compromise with - the 'Evil Zionist Entity" so what is there to deal with them over?
I think you're seeing why this helicopter attack was so detrimental. Sharon wasn't dealing with Hamas and maybe he doesn't have to. Let the cease-fire begin and deal with the new PM.
But that might lead towards peace. So, instead, we have Sharon provoking yet another breakdown.
the way i understand it now, israel is in fact negotiating with hamas, they are letting jailed hamas leaders communicate with leaders on the outside.
i also understand there to be much division in in the israeli government as there seems to be in hamas. so any truce is going to be shaky at best.
but considering the alternative......
NO ! one big no !!!
your information is incorrect - Israel is NOT talking to Hamas - the said ceasefire BS is between the PA and Hamas not between Israel and Hamas - that's blasphemy for the Hamasnics.
Re devision in government - I don't know where you get that from so let me inform you about this:
Sharon is at an unprecedentedly powerful position politically - in israeli politics in recent years his is the most powerful position of any of the last 6 prime ministers. he has no opposition from within Likud (after crushing Netanyahoo completely in the internal elections last year) and he does not have to reckon with the religious right wing Spharadi party - 'Shas' which has lost many seats in the last elections and is not a member of the coalition. his second largest partner in the coalition in 'Shinui' - a popular centrist secularist party with a moderate agenda that will support any progress on the RoadMap. together these two have nearly the 61 seats needed to form a coalition... as for his right wing partners - well to be honest he can easily forget about them if they get too troublesome - he only needs about 6 - 8 seats for a majority in the Kneset and he could always join up with Labor (now headed by old dove Peres) and form a secular national unity government with Likud, Shinui and Labor if the right wing gets too problematic for him to operate - which will give him total national and political support to move on with the peace process (this is what most Israelis want to see happen since put together these 3 parties stand for about 80% of Israelis). Sharon has so many options and in every one of these he will still be in full control.
The question is - will he? I believe he realizes he has no other choice - peace is the only way forward for israel and this is what the majority of Israelis wish for... the US is very much trusted by Israelis and if it stands firmly behind a peace deal most Israelis will trust that deal! (unless of course the palestinians bungle it up again) - but who knows reading Sharon's mind is a task wiser and more knowledgeable people then me have failed to do...
Who knows....But the wild cards here are the Islamists and extremist Fatah groups who would like to foil any attempt at Palestinian moderation - the big question is will the Palestinian nation allow these few to control their destiny or will they take their future into their own hands.
your information is incorrect - Israel is NOT talking to Hamas - the said ceasefire BS is between the PA and Hamas not between Israel and Hamas - that's blasphemy for the Hamasnics.
I think you're seeing why this helicopter attack was so detrimental. Sharon wasn't dealing with Hamas and maybe he doesn't have to. Let the cease-fire begin and deal with the new PM.
But that might lead towards peace. So, instead, we have Sharon provoking yet another breakdown.
The problem is that there is not and never was any ceasefire from hamas, throughout the 4 weeks since the Aqaba summit Israelis have been dying and terrorists have been attacking relentlessly.
Just got off the phone with my parents in Jerusalem - and they were saying alerts for the weekend are red hot, only yesterday a couple of suicide bombers were ambushed and killed and large amounts of explosives were found on them on their way to attack a shopping mall in Petah Tikva near Tel Aviv.
This morning a jewish telephone company worker who was working in an Arab Israeli town was murdered by a 15 year old Palestinian from the west bank.
We expect more for Friday.....
You call this a ceasefire?
Since the discussions about that bogus ceasefire are internal - between the palestinians themselves and not with Israel - what can Sharon do? his people are being attacked - the Palestinians are debating amongst themselves indefinitely, is he supposed to simply sit quietly while people are being killed and wait politely for Egypt and Mazen to convince Hamas to maybe agree not to murder anyone for 3 months
i understand your passion for the problem and your viewpoint on it.
this HA! business. i do not understand. i do not understand it one bit.
Sorry if it seems as if I meant it as spite - I didn't!!
I was merely expressing my sense of amazement and ridicule at the impossible expectations being placed on Israel in this issue.
It is being attacked but it can't respond
its expected to entrust its security to the hands of the very people who fight it and claim to wish for it's destruction.
And when it expresses skepticism about the so called ceasefire talks within the Palestinian side which have been going on for over 6 weeks now and have only resulted in more Israelis killed it gets blamed for subverting the whole peace process....
Indeed some hopeful peace process....
OK, let me ask you this simple question - Do you seriously believe that were the palestinians to stop all attacks on Israelis tomorrow Israel would not put down its arms too?
Lets be frank here - they keys to all this is in Palestinian hands - they can make a decision NOW and the roadmap would start progressing no ifs or buts - you simply cannot say the same thing about Israel, all it can do is sit and wait and defend itself until such time arrives when Palestinians choose to stop the violence.
In the other thread, I called the earlier quote above one of the most depressing I had recently seen. (I have seen others more depressing since.) However, I fear that Israel really will be destroyed someday unless a real peace is reached. The current roadmap is not the way, and all this killing does not seem ready to stop (Who shot first? - Who can really tell? - How far back do you want to go on that question?)
I stand by my fears and beliefs that one day Israel will be destroyed...
Comments
Hamas officials say their organization, along with Islamic Jihad and Fatah, are discussing the ceasefire with Palestinian officials but have not yet reached an agreement. Palestinian sources were quoted Wednesday as saying the three organizations had signed a ceasefire document in Damascus, Syria.
bunge lied to promote his agenda. He should be impeached.
Originally posted by bunge
So, for the Palestinians to have peace, they must ignore their civilians being targetted and killed? Or because they don't have an official state, there are no true Palestinian civilians to be killed?
Your logic states that Israel can attack while trying to make peace while the Palestinians can't. That's suicide for Palestinians.
No, they have to agreed to stop groups that are specifically targetting civilians and they actually take steps to stopping those groups. That is not suicide, that is what the UN and Europe expect of them. That is what the PA acknoloedges.
Earlier posted by grad student (in another thread)
...until the day comes (in the very distant future) that indeed Israel is defeat-able by a neighboring country. At which point - which I am convinced will come some day - Israel will cease to exist.
Later posted by grad student (in this thread)
...and as much as they would like to see the destruction of the jews and israel - they will never see it
Which is it?
In the other thread, I called the earlier quote above one of the most depressing I had recently seen. (I have seen others more depressing since.) However, I fear that Israel really will be destroyed someday unless a real peace is reached. The current roadmap is not the way, and all this killing does not seem ready to stop (Who shot first? - Who can really tell? - How far back do you want to go on that question?)
I will not repeat that elements of what I consider to be the real road to peace. You can read that in the other thread. I'll just say that ethnic nationalism - whether by Arabs, Jews, Irish, Germans, Tamils, Hindus, Russians, or anyone else - is a scourge. Those who support it should reconsider the so-called justice and morality of killing in its name.
Originally posted by Scott
I have to wonder with all the anti-Israel tunnel vision here followed up quickly with Hamas blinders what do bunge et al think the Final Solution will be for this problem?
again scott, i find it ironic that you are using these kind of terms.
i think the final solution is palestine being legitimized, including hamas in negotiations, and once doing so, if the violence continues, deal with hamas at that time.
i feel sharon and likud don't want a palestine, legitmate or otherwise, they'd probably even like to see the camp david accords overturned.
i think it's imperative to the peace process that if sharon is involved he has to deal (as in wheel and deal) with hamas.
Originally posted by Scott
I have to wonder with all the anti-Israel tunnel vision here followed up quickly with Hamas blinders what do bunge et al think the Final Solution will be for this problem?
Peace?
Originally posted by groverat
bunge lied to promote his agenda. He should be impeached.
(cc: bunge)
Do you mean ?heavens above he lied to start a war!??
Pity the humanity.
Originally posted by groverat
Found this during my morning GoogleNews perusal.
What the hell would your morning GoogleNews perusal have to do with yesterday's story? Oh yeah, nothing.
Both of which are lies.
Originally posted by groverat
Both of which are lies.
You sometimes have trouble with logic. Your article proves my article is a lie?
I know this is difficult for you, because you know Sharon must go, but you've got to fight to keep up the facade.
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
i feel sharon and likud don't want a palestine, legitmate or otherwise, they'd probably even like to see the camp david accords overturned.
i think it's imperative to the peace process that if sharon is involved he has to deal (as in wheel and deal) with hamas.
1. The camp david accords have been overturned - by Arafat who rejected these flatly just like he did in Taba 4 months later...
2. Maybe Sharon needs to deal with hamas - but how can that happen when hamas refuses to deal with him or indeed anyone who is classed as a ZIonist?
for them its - "no talking! ever, not until the complete redemption of our holy occupied lands takes place" with the word occupation referring to the entirety of the land between the river and the sea, not just the post 67 OT...
3. what is there to deal with them about? the positions are diametrically opposed and Hamas claim to renounce any possible compromise with - the 'Evil Zionist Entity" so what is there to deal with them over?
I think you're seeing why this helicopter attack was so detrimental. Sharon wasn't dealing with Hamas and maybe he doesn't have to. Let the cease-fire begin and deal with the new PM.
But that might lead towards peace. So, instead, we have Sharon provoking yet another breakdown.
i also understand there to be much division in in the israeli government as there seems to be in hamas. so any truce is going to be shaky at best.
but considering the alternative......
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
the way i understand it now, israel is in fact negotiating with hamas, they are letting jailed hamas leaders communicate with leaders on the outside.
i also understand there to be much division in in the israeli government as there seems to be in hamas. so any truce is going to be shaky at best.
but considering the alternative......
NO ! one big no !!!
your information is incorrect - Israel is NOT talking to Hamas - the said ceasefire BS is between the PA and Hamas not between Israel and Hamas - that's blasphemy for the Hamasnics.
Re devision in government - I don't know where you get that from so let me inform you about this:
Sharon is at an unprecedentedly powerful position politically - in israeli politics in recent years his is the most powerful position of any of the last 6 prime ministers. he has no opposition from within Likud (after crushing Netanyahoo completely in the internal elections last year) and he does not have to reckon with the religious right wing Spharadi party - 'Shas' which has lost many seats in the last elections and is not a member of the coalition. his second largest partner in the coalition in 'Shinui' - a popular centrist secularist party with a moderate agenda that will support any progress on the RoadMap. together these two have nearly the 61 seats needed to form a coalition... as for his right wing partners - well to be honest he can easily forget about them if they get too troublesome - he only needs about 6 - 8 seats for a majority in the Kneset and he could always join up with Labor (now headed by old dove Peres) and form a secular national unity government with Likud, Shinui and Labor if the right wing gets too problematic for him to operate - which will give him total national and political support to move on with the peace process (this is what most Israelis want to see happen since put together these 3 parties stand for about 80% of Israelis). Sharon has so many options and in every one of these he will still be in full control.
The question is - will he? I believe he realizes he has no other choice - peace is the only way forward for israel and this is what the majority of Israelis wish for... the US is very much trusted by Israelis and if it stands firmly behind a peace deal most Israelis will trust that deal! (unless of course the palestinians bungle it up again) - but who knows reading Sharon's mind is a task wiser and more knowledgeable people then me have failed to do...
Who knows....But the wild cards here are the Islamists and extremist Fatah groups who would like to foil any attempt at Palestinian moderation - the big question is will the Palestinian nation allow these few to control their destiny or will they take their future into their own hands.
Originally posted by rashumon
NO ! one big no !!!
your information is incorrect - Israel is NOT talking to Hamas - the said ceasefire BS is between the PA and Hamas not between Israel and Hamas - that's blasphemy for the Hamasnics.
well certainly time will tell.
Originally posted by bunge
rashumon,
I think you're seeing why this helicopter attack was so detrimental. Sharon wasn't dealing with Hamas and maybe he doesn't have to. Let the cease-fire begin and deal with the new PM.
But that might lead towards peace. So, instead, we have Sharon provoking yet another breakdown.
The problem is that there is not and never was any ceasefire from hamas, throughout the 4 weeks since the Aqaba summit Israelis have been dying and terrorists have been attacking relentlessly.
Just got off the phone with my parents in Jerusalem - and they were saying alerts for the weekend are red hot, only yesterday a couple of suicide bombers were ambushed and killed and large amounts of explosives were found on them on their way to attack a shopping mall in Petah Tikva near Tel Aviv.
This morning a jewish telephone company worker who was working in an Arab Israeli town was murdered by a 15 year old Palestinian from the west bank.
We expect more for Friday.....
You call this a ceasefire?
Since the discussions about that bogus ceasefire are internal - between the palestinians themselves and not with Israel - what can Sharon do? his people are being attacked - the Palestinians are debating amongst themselves indefinitely, is he supposed to simply sit quietly while people are being killed and wait politely for Egypt and Mazen to convince Hamas to maybe agree not to murder anyone for 3 months
would you do that if you were the PM of Israel?
HA !
Originally posted by rashumon
HA !
i understand your passion for the problem and your viewpoint on it.
this HA! business. i do not understand. i do not understand it one bit.
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
i understand your passion for the problem and your viewpoint on it.
this HA! business. i do not understand. i do not understand it one bit.
Sorry if it seems as if I meant it as spite - I didn't!!
I was merely expressing my sense of amazement and ridicule at the impossible expectations being placed on Israel in this issue.
It is being attacked but it can't respond
its expected to entrust its security to the hands of the very people who fight it and claim to wish for it's destruction.
And when it expresses skepticism about the so called ceasefire talks within the Palestinian side which have been going on for over 6 weeks now and have only resulted in more Israelis killed it gets blamed for subverting the whole peace process....
Indeed some hopeful peace process....
OK, let me ask you this simple question - Do you seriously believe that were the palestinians to stop all attacks on Israelis tomorrow Israel would not put down its arms too?
Lets be frank here - they keys to all this is in Palestinian hands - they can make a decision NOW and the roadmap would start progressing no ifs or buts - you simply cannot say the same thing about Israel, all it can do is sit and wait and defend itself until such time arrives when Palestinians choose to stop the violence.
As i have said before it is really that simple!
Originally posted by Chinney
Which is it?
In the other thread, I called the earlier quote above one of the most depressing I had recently seen. (I have seen others more depressing since.) However, I fear that Israel really will be destroyed someday unless a real peace is reached. The current roadmap is not the way, and all this killing does not seem ready to stop (Who shot first? - Who can really tell? - How far back do you want to go on that question?)
I stand by my fears and beliefs that one day Israel will be destroyed...
but not our lifetimes.