I posted this in another thread, make of it what you like:
[quote]
This may mean nothing, but... colleague was just on the phone to large UK reseller, who said "all G4s towers are in contraint" ie they aren't getting deliveries.
He says this usually means changes are afoot, and that the word was that new machines are coming and that they will be X-only.
At the same time this reseller has several hundred G4s in stock - but seemed keen to knock £50.00 off some 1Ghz for us.
Before we all start hyperveintilating lets remember that the probability of just a speedbump of the towers is 95% or more.
Replacing the current 0.867/1.00/1.25 with something betwen 1.0/1.2/1.4 or a more optimistic 1.2-1.4-1.6 is very nice but more of step up rather than a jump or leap!
If IBM planned to have the 970 in producion during the third quarter it is more then very very optimistic to have Apple selling them in the beginning of the first quarter.
I will be very pleased if Apple can sell 970 based computers at the beginning of the third quarter
Between that time and August 2002 when the current line up came out I do expect one speedbump and the sooner the better
I'm only aware of the one comment. It was in one of the numerous threads on the 970 or MPC7457, I think. Because I can't get the search engine to work I can't track it down.
My impression was that moki was referring to something other than IBM's 970 and that there is another cpu IBM has been working on that [my words here: may be introduced in an Apple computer sooner than the 970].
What it would be I have no idea though. Nothing seems to fit.
An early 970 no
A G3 w/ Altivec no(that's a G4)
A G3 w/ Altivec RapidI/O etc. no - too soon for this tech
<strong>There is no way the next PowerMac should be black. PC makes finally realized that all their PCs look the same (beige), so they all switched to black. They still look the same . Here is an article called "<a href="http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,427047,00.asp"; target="_blank">Black is the New Beige</a>. Sorry for being somewhat OT.
Andrew</strong><hr></blockquote>
Perhaps the rumoured new Apple displays swathed in crystalline gleaming transparent plastics and chrome give an indication of what the next G4 PowerMac or 970 PowerMac will look like. I can picture the existing El Capatain (sp?) case in crystalline white with chrome handles and latch (I hope there isn't that much chrome though).
Perhaps the rumoured new Apple displays swathed in crystalline gleaming transparent plastics and chrome give an indication of what the next G4 PowerMac or 970 PowerMac will look like. I can picture the existing El Capatain (sp?) case in crystalline white with chrome handles and latch (I hope there isn't that much chrome though).</strong><hr></blockquote>
i believed those "mirrored doors" are the chrome you're looking for...unfortunately. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
<strong>Before we all start hyperveintilating lets remember that the probability of just a speedbump of the towers is 95% or more.
Replacing the current 0.867/1.00/1.25 with something betwen 1.0/1.2/1.4 or a more optimistic 1.2-1.4-1.6 is very nice but more of step up rather than a jump or leap!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Processor-wise, yes.
There are all kinds of other things Apple could do to make the PowerMacs more appealing and higher performing, though.
I'm only aware of the one comment. It was in one of the numerous threads on the 970 or MPC7457, I think. Because I can't get the search engine to work I can't track it down.
My impression was that moki was referring to something other than IBM's 970 and that there is another cpu IBM has been working on that [my words here: may be introduced in an Apple computer sooner than the 970].
What it would be I have no idea though. Nothing seems to fit.
An early 970 no
A G3 w/ Altivec no(that's a G4)
A G3 w/ Altivec RapidI/O etc. no - too soon for this tech
<strong>Read the naked mole rat to find out more. Gobi is next (1.6ghz IIRC) and then a MP G3 which I think will replace the consumer G4.</strong><hr></blockquote>
NMR didn't mention a speed for the Gobi, however, he did mention the Mojave starting @ 1.6GHz on a 0.10µm process in 2004.
I can't believe the Gobi will clock much higher than the current G3 unless IBM changed the architecture. This could be what moki's sandbagging comment refered to, if so, I'm not impressed, especially if it doesn't include Altivec. Let's see Gobi no RapidI/O, no DDR frontside bus, clocks maybe to 1.2 - 1.3GHz, maximum FSB @ 200MHz, probably no Altivec.
<strong>NMR didn't mention a speed for the Gobi, however, he did mention the Mojave starting @ 1.6GHz on a 0.10µm process in 2004.
I can't believe the Gobi will clock much higher than the current G3 unless IBM changed the architecture. This could be what moki's sandbagging comment refered to, if so, I'm not impressed, especially if it doesn't include Altivec. Let's see Gobi no RapidI/O, no DDR frontside bus, clocks maybe to 1.2 - 1.3GHz, maximum FSB @ 200MHz, probably no Altivec.
I hope IBM was sandbagging something much better </strong><hr></blockquote>
From dictionary.com:
Sandbagging
To downplay or misrepresent one's ability in a game or activity in order to deceive (someone), especially in gambling: sandbagged the pool player by playing poorly in the first game when stakes were low.
v. intr. Slang
To downplay or misrepresent one's ability in order to deceive someone, especially in gambling.
-------------
IIRC, Moki's comment was related directly to the capabilities of the 970, or the 9x0 series of processors in general. He has also repeatedly predicted the arrival of the 970 in roughly the Sept '03 timeframe, which fits perfectly with what IBM's announcement said. There is no evidence that would cause us to doubt this.
So what could the "sandbagging" comment refer to? Here are my thoughts, roughly in order of likelyhood:
1) IBM stated that their performance numbers were estimates, and they may have low-balled them. 10-20% faster would surprise me at all.
2) The 0.09 micron delivery will be within 6 months of the 0.13 micron delivery and will significantly improve performance.
3) The 0.13 part will arrive at higher clock rates than projected, either right away or very soon after. Motorola, for example, has only announced G4s up to 1 GHz or so but Apple is shipping faster ones.
4) IBM omitted processor details. For example, based on the architectural details I've seen it wouldn't be unreasonable for the 970 to support hyper-threading in the same manner as it was added to Intel's P4. There are enough registers, prefetch streams, execution units, etc to drive two threads. This is a relatively straightforward addition to the microarchitecture of the processor, and a very small %age increase in the transistor count.
5) IBM has a multicore version intended only for use in IBM and Apple machines. This would still be <100 million transistors. It would be damn hot, but look at Apple's current case. Alternatively this might arrive with the 0.09 migration.
6) All of the above.
7) Alternatively it could be that Motorola is the one sandbagging.... [EDIT] but this is refutted by the quote pointed out below. We know its about IBM and its about PowerPC processors.
I wouldn't bet on any of these coming true, but it makes for more interesting speculation than when the next gen PowerMac will ship.
<strong>Here's the post that got me to think maybe the sandbagging wasn't about the 970.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're right, but it was definitely about IBM. And its certainly about processors since that's what the discussion was about. It might not carry the number 970, but it is most likely a direct relative... 971, 975, 980. I lump any of these into the category "970 w/ variation". See my list above for the possible variations.
<strong>It might not carry the number 970, but it is most likely a direct relative... 971, 975, 980...</strong><hr></blockquote>
A thought just occured to me. moki's comment,"Sure... but I didn't say about what." may have just been concerning any NDA(which he says he isn't under), ethical issues he may have or he enjoys the guessing games we play.
A thought just occured to me. moki's comment,"Sure... but I didn't say about what." may have just been concerning any NDA(which he says he isn't under), ethical issues he may have or he enjoys the guessing games we play.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
He may not be under NDA but rather respecing the wishes of someone who said, "don't tell anyone, but...".
<strong>I've been checking out Ingram Micro inventory and while they were mostly at nil for PowerMac inventory last week, they quickly restocked and are in the low hundreds on each of the models. I have heard rumors that Apple may have 970 chips in their hands by March even if a limited amount. We also are to expect the 7457 from Motorola very soon. We can all agree that PowerMacs need an update and late this month or early next is when we should expect them. I predict a staggered announcement like when the DA PowerMacs were first released: 2 models based on the G4 (7457) shipping immediately and two models based on the 970 shipping in a month for the lower speed and maybe 6 weeks for the higher end. If the 970 is not to be in the cards for this quarter then a full lineup of 7457s should hold us over with 200MHz buses, but I really hope for 970 announcements. It would convince some of my higher ups to wait on the purchase of some new Macs we need to make in the spring. My predicted specs are as follows:
Comments
<strong>970 will be early I bet. 970+ to follow later this year or early next year.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Based on info from un-deniable sources, I concur!
[quote]
This may mean nothing, but... colleague was just on the phone to large UK reseller, who said "all G4s towers are in contraint" ie they aren't getting deliveries.
He says this usually means changes are afoot, and that the word was that new machines are coming and that they will be X-only.
At the same time this reseller has several hundred G4s in stock - but seemed keen to knock £50.00 off some 1Ghz for us.
<hr></blockquote>
Replacing the current 0.867/1.00/1.25 with something betwen 1.0/1.2/1.4 or a more optimistic 1.2-1.4-1.6 is very nice but more of step up rather than a jump or leap!
If IBM planned to have the 970 in producion during the third quarter it is more then very very optimistic to have Apple selling them in the beginning of the first quarter.
I will be very pleased if Apple can sell 970 based computers at the beginning of the third quarter
Between that time and August 2002 when the current line up came out I do expect one speedbump and the sooner the better
Just sitting here pondering what the heck Moki's IBM sandbagging comment meant?
<hr></blockquote>
Which one?
[ 01-24-2003: Message edited by: ARW2 ]</p>
<strong>Which one?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm only aware of the one comment. It was in one of the numerous threads on the 970 or MPC7457, I think. Because I can't get the search engine to work I can't track it down.
My impression was that moki was referring to something other than IBM's 970 and that there is another cpu IBM has been working on that [my words here: may be introduced in an Apple computer sooner than the 970].
What it would be I have no idea though. Nothing seems to fit.
An early 970 no
A G3 w/ Altivec no(that's a G4)
A G3 w/ Altivec RapidI/O etc. no - too soon for this tech
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
[ 01-24-2003: Message edited by: rickag ]</p>
<strong>There is no way the next PowerMac should be black. PC makes finally realized that all their PCs look the same (beige), so they all switched to black. They still look the same
Andrew</strong><hr></blockquote>
Perhaps the rumoured new Apple displays swathed in crystalline gleaming transparent plastics and chrome give an indication of what the next G4 PowerMac or 970 PowerMac will look like. I can picture the existing El Capatain (sp?) case in crystalline white with chrome handles and latch (I hope there isn't that much chrome though).
<strong>Motorola uses the prefixes "MPC" and "XPC" (among others) to denote a PPC's qualification status.</strong><hr></blockquote>
<a href="http://e-www.motorola.com/collateral/PPCCPUPNS.gif"; target="_blank">Processor Part Numbering Scheme</a>
Maybe there is a newer version I don't know.
<strong>
Perhaps the rumoured new Apple displays swathed in crystalline gleaming transparent plastics and chrome give an indication of what the next G4 PowerMac or 970 PowerMac will look like. I can picture the existing El Capatain (sp?) case in crystalline white with chrome handles and latch (I hope there isn't that much chrome though).</strong><hr></blockquote>
i believed those "mirrored doors" are the chrome you're looking for...unfortunately. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
<strong>Before we all start hyperveintilating lets remember that the probability of just a speedbump of the towers is 95% or more.
Replacing the current 0.867/1.00/1.25 with something betwen 1.0/1.2/1.4 or a more optimistic 1.2-1.4-1.6 is very nice but more of step up rather than a jump or leap!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Processor-wise, yes.
There are all kinds of other things Apple could do to make the PowerMacs more appealing and higher performing, though.
<strong>
I'm only aware of the one comment. It was in one of the numerous threads on the 970 or MPC7457, I think. Because I can't get the search engine to work I can't track it down.
My impression was that moki was referring to something other than IBM's 970 and that there is another cpu IBM has been working on that [my words here: may be introduced in an Apple computer sooner than the 970].
What it would be I have no idea though. Nothing seems to fit.
An early 970 no
A G3 w/ Altivec no(that's a G4)
A G3 w/ Altivec RapidI/O etc. no - too soon for this tech
[ 01-24-2003: Message edited by: rickag ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Read the naked mole rat to find out more. Gobi is next (1.6ghz IIRC) and then a MP G3 which I think will replace the consumer G4.
[ 01-24-2003: Message edited by: KidRed ]</p>
<strong>Read the naked mole rat to find out more. Gobi is next (1.6ghz IIRC) and then a MP G3 which I think will replace the consumer G4.</strong><hr></blockquote>
NMR didn't mention a speed for the Gobi, however, he did mention the Mojave starting @ 1.6GHz on a 0.10µm process in 2004.
I can't believe the Gobi will clock much higher than the current G3 unless IBM changed the architecture. This could be what moki's sandbagging comment refered to, if so, I'm not impressed, especially if it doesn't include Altivec. Let's see Gobi no RapidI/O, no DDR frontside bus, clocks maybe to 1.2 - 1.3GHz, maximum FSB @ 200MHz, probably no Altivec.
I hope IBM was sandbagging something much better
<strong>NMR didn't mention a speed for the Gobi, however, he did mention the Mojave starting @ 1.6GHz on a 0.10µm process in 2004.
I can't believe the Gobi will clock much higher than the current G3 unless IBM changed the architecture. This could be what moki's sandbagging comment refered to, if so, I'm not impressed, especially if it doesn't include Altivec. Let's see Gobi no RapidI/O, no DDR frontside bus, clocks maybe to 1.2 - 1.3GHz, maximum FSB @ 200MHz, probably no Altivec.
I hope IBM was sandbagging something much better
From dictionary.com:
Sandbagging
To downplay or misrepresent one's ability in a game or activity in order to deceive (someone), especially in gambling: sandbagged the pool player by playing poorly in the first game when stakes were low.
v. intr. Slang
To downplay or misrepresent one's ability in order to deceive someone, especially in gambling.
-------------
IIRC, Moki's comment was related directly to the capabilities of the 970, or the 9x0 series of processors in general. He has also repeatedly predicted the arrival of the 970 in roughly the Sept '03 timeframe, which fits perfectly with what IBM's announcement said. There is no evidence that would cause us to doubt this.
So what could the "sandbagging" comment refer to? Here are my thoughts, roughly in order of likelyhood:
1) IBM stated that their performance numbers were estimates, and they may have low-balled them. 10-20% faster would surprise me at all.
2) The 0.09 micron delivery will be within 6 months of the 0.13 micron delivery and will significantly improve performance.
3) The 0.13 part will arrive at higher clock rates than projected, either right away or very soon after. Motorola, for example, has only announced G4s up to 1 GHz or so but Apple is shipping faster ones.
4) IBM omitted processor details. For example, based on the architectural details I've seen it wouldn't be unreasonable for the 970 to support hyper-threading in the same manner as it was added to Intel's P4. There are enough registers, prefetch streams, execution units, etc to drive two threads. This is a relatively straightforward addition to the microarchitecture of the processor, and a very small %age increase in the transistor count.
5) IBM has a multicore version intended only for use in IBM and Apple machines. This would still be <100 million transistors. It would be damn hot, but look at Apple's current case. Alternatively this might arrive with the 0.09 migration.
6) All of the above.
7) Alternatively it could be that Motorola is the one sandbagging.... [EDIT] but this is refutted by the quote pointed out below. We know its about IBM and its about PowerPC processors.
I wouldn't bet on any of these coming true, but it makes for more interesting speculation than when the next gen PowerMac will ship.
[ 01-25-2003: Message edited by: Programmer ]</p>
<a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002877"; target="_blank">http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002877</a>;
moki
Member
Posts: 323
From: Rochester, NY
posted 01-12-2003 02:44 AM
[quote] <img src="embarrassed.gif" border="0"> riginally posted by Locomotive:
Does anyone remember (from someone whose screen name is a four-letter-word) the suggestion that IBM might be sandbagging?<hr></blockquote>
Sure... but I didn't say about what.
[ 01-25-2003: Message edited by: rickag ]</p>
<strong>Here's the post that got me to think maybe the sandbagging wasn't about the 970.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're right, but it was definitely about IBM. And its certainly about processors since that's what the discussion was about. It might not carry the number 970, but it is most likely a direct relative... 971, 975, 980. I lump any of these into the category "970 w/ variation". See my list above for the possible variations.
<strong>
There is no evidence that would cause us to doubt this.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Speak for yourself. :cool:
[ 01-25-2003: Message edited by: Transcendental Octothorpe ]</p>
<strong>It might not carry the number 970, but it is most likely a direct relative... 971, 975, 980...</strong><hr></blockquote>
A thought just occured to me. moki's comment,"Sure... but I didn't say about what." may have just been concerning any NDA(which he says he isn't under), ethical issues he may have or he enjoys the guessing games we play.
<strong>
A thought just occured to me. moki's comment,"Sure... but I didn't say about what." may have just been concerning any NDA(which he says he isn't under), ethical issues he may have or he enjoys the guessing games we play.
He may not be under NDA but rather respecing the wishes of someone who said, "don't tell anyone, but...".
<strong>I've been checking out Ingram Micro inventory and while they were mostly at nil for PowerMac inventory last week, they quickly restocked and are in the low hundreds on each of the models. I have heard rumors that Apple may have 970 chips in their hands by March even if a limited amount. We also are to expect the 7457 from Motorola very soon. We can all agree that PowerMacs need an update and late this month or early next is when we should expect them. I predict a staggered announcement like when the DA PowerMacs were first released: 2 models based on the G4 (7457) shipping immediately and two models based on the 970 shipping in a month for the lower speed and maybe 6 weeks for the higher end. If the 970 is not to be in the cards for this quarter then a full lineup of 7457s should hold us over with 200MHz buses, but I really hope for 970 announcements. It would convince some of my higher ups to wait on the purchase of some new Macs we need to make in the spring. My predicted specs are as follows:
All G4 line up:
1GHz SP, 1.25GHz SP, 1.3GHz DP, 1.5GHz DP
2MB L3 cache across the board
167MHz bus for the SP machines
200MHz bus for the DP machines
DDR RAM; 256MB, 512MB, 512MB, 1GB respectively
ATA133; 60GB; 80GB; 120GB, 160GB respectively
Firewire 400 & 800
USB 1.1
AGP 8X, PCI-X (!)
Bluetooth and the new Airport slots
Staggered G4/970 line up:
1.2GHz SP G4, 1.4GHz SP G4; 2MB L3 cache; 200MHz bus
1.6GHz DP 970, 1.8GHz DP 970; 800MHz and 900MHz bus
DDR RAM; 256MB, 512MB, 512MB, 1GB respectively
ATA133; 60GB; 80GB; 120GB, 160GB respectively
Firewire 400 & 800
USB 1.1
AGP 8X, PCI-X (!)
Bluetooth and the new Airport slots</strong><hr></blockquote>