And you are still missing it. I asked for number about how how many deaths had occured since the ceasefire had been in effect. You provided details, unrelated, as to how many deaths during the uprising..showing not a single death during the time frames I asked about.
You are trying to paint Israel as peaceful, even through sarcasm, and it is total BS. I wonder how many palestinian deaths during the Intifada were civilians. How much you want to bet it's a really large percentage? My money shouldn't be going towards the deaths of palestinian civilians, and Israel's powerful military should enable it to not kill civilians.
Sorry Tulkas, but you're just being a dork. You can try and spin what I've said, but that doesn't make it true. I've never supported the idea that Palestinians should be able to push the Israelis into the sea. You have to create your straw man argument to try and defeat my points. Sorry, doesn't work.
Quote:
Tulkas:"...who's elected representatives have a goal of liquidation of the people of the more powerful country."
Quote:
bunge" It's no different than you kicking a theif out of our house."
Sounds like a ringing endorement to me.
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Afraid of the word Jew? Why would I be? You're trying to twist what I've said so you can pretend I hate Jews. Why? Because obviously if I hate Jews then I lose the argument. Sorry, doesn't work.
Now, why on earth would I have to pretend that?
Actually, I was only asking why you are afraid of the word. You seem to have at least a disdain for seeing it in print.
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Twisted? You're the one that's twisted. Why don't you go back and quote me instead of paraphrasing. In the process either you'll understand, or I'll be able to defend my words rather than attempting to defend your feeble attempts to twist my own.
done.
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
First in line to start a gas chamber? Now that's just sick. If you've got to resort to attacking the person, then obviously you've got a very weak argument. I should say, no argument. Again, go back and quote me. In the process either you'll be enlightened, or at least I can defend my words rather than your paraphrasing.
Look, you start by calling be a racist, and expect no personals back? bunge, I honestly respect you and don't consider you an antisemite, but if you are gonna throw the mud, don't cry when you get hit.
You are trying to paint Israel as peaceful, even through sarcasm, and it is total BS. I wonder how many palestinian deaths during the Intifada were civilians. How much you want to bet it's a really large percentage? My money shouldn't be going towards the deaths of palestinian civilians, and Israel's powerful military should enable it to not kill civilians.
Or US college students, in case you forgot.
Actually, chief, I was trying to paint then as not being the warhungry, blood thirsty people you want them made out to be. Case in point. I ask for numbers about how many deaths since the since ceasefire was implemented, in answer, you totally unrelated graphs and argue about the intifatah and how many palestinian deaths occurred. I guess chnaging the subject, even in so overt a manner serves when the real answer doesn't fit your objective of demonizing the State of Israel.
Actually, chief, I was trying to paint then as not being the warhungry, blood thirsty people you want them made out to be. Case in point. I ask for numbers about how many deaths since the since ceasefire was implemented, in answer, you totally unrelated graphs and argue about the intifatah and how many palestinian deaths occurred. I guess chnaging the subject, even in so overt a manner serves when the real answer doesn't fit your objective of demonizing the State of Israel.
See, you are still doing it. How about we talk about the whole history of Israel? Focusing on one month when the issue at hand spans decades is irresponsible and simply BS.
But what more can we expect from someone who likes to call people 'dicks' and acts like learning is elitist? I would say I expect more out of you, but I don't.
See, you are still doing it. How about we talk about the whole history of Israel? Focusing on one month when the issue at hand spans decades is irresponsible and simply BS.
I am sorry, but if you are looking for more than fairly localized discussions, then you are in the wrong place. Just as this thread discusses a particular issue, so to most threads here.
Want to discuss the whole history of Israel? Feel free to start a thread. Otherwise you are derailing threads throwing in unrelated answers to question.
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
But what more can we expect from someone who likes to call people 'dicks' and acts like learning is elitist? I would say I expect more out of you, but I don't.
Back to flat out lying to make a point? I never called learning elitist, much as my saying that would make you relavant again. I did say you were an ivory tower, elitist academic..which even in the glorious image you hold of yourself, you know to be true.
I am sorry, but if you are looking for more than fairly localized discussions, then you are in the wrong place. Just as this thread discusses a particular issue, so to most threads here.
Want to discuss the whole history of Israel? Feel free to start a thread. Otherwise you are derailing threads throwing in unrelated answers to question.
OK. This thread is about racism and israel. Go look. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's the title of the thread, but I could be wrong. You are the one trying to change the topic to only looking at a death tool from the past month.
And sorry I didn't follow your rules. I didn't realize you were in charge. Pardon me, sir.
Anyway, so how does the past month, within the larger context of the past few decades, have any impact on the topic that is actually in the title of the thread, racism and Israel?
That's because you're hearing what you want to hear from me. Like I said, you can out-argue me if I'm saying something that stupid, which I'm not. Israel has extended beyond what it should be. I support getting Israel off of that extended land.
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
Actually, I was only asking why you are afraid of the word. You seem to have at least a disdain for seeing it in print.
That's almost funny...but not quite. You could put the word "Finns" in its place and I'd react to it in the exact same way in this thread. It's irrelevant. There is no Palestine as of yet, so that's a harder area to define. Israel exists and that's what I'm talking about.
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
Look, you start by calling be a racist, and expect no personals back?
Sorry, I said you might be a racist. I don't consider that a personal attack. I did however call you a dork, and that was uncalled for. Neither in my opinion is on par with your gas chamber comment though.
Forgiveness by grace is a power where by all parties are relieved and given a freedom unlike any other. A freedom from resentment, a hardened heart, and bitterness. So so so many acts of sadness and pain are caused by resentment, a hardened heart, and bitterness. People inflict harm or wounds both physical and emotional (because of resentment, a hardened heart and bitterness) which can last if "unforgiven" for generations upon generations. The cycle can only stop via one and only one cure.... Forgiveness....
There is no other way to solve this...
For generations people try by way of failed methods to manage wrongs done to and from others.. only to find no peace.
If there was ever a message given by our Lord Jesus it is to forgive.. The power of forgiveness is beautiful and can advance human love and understang more than any philosophy or materialism of this world.
Without the willing acts to forgive humanity faces more hurt and pain.
With Love from His Grace,
Fellowship
be completely honest. A man (or woman) moves into your house and kicks out out to live in the garage. You will simply forgive them and settle for living in the garage.
be completely honest. A man (or woman) moves into your house and kicks out out to live in the garage. You will simply forgive them and settle for living in the garage.
Sondjata I believe people can forgive and reason together. I will always believe such.
It's funny that everyone has their panties in a twist over some new dumb law that Israel passed when a large part of the arab muslim world has been practicing overt religious bigotry basically forever.
But screw that fact. Let's focus on what the jews are up to lately.
Originally posted by Scott It's funny that everyone has their panties in a twist over some new dumb law that Israel passed when a large part of the arab muslim world has been practicing overt religious bigotry basically forever.
But screw that fact. Let's focus on what the jews are up to lately.
The difference:
. israel recieves a TON of my country's money
. at the same time that we have open and vocal zionists (their word not mine) running the country, these people lead my country into war through lies. That war is not very beneficial to the US but is very beneficial to israel
While actions like Israel's would be unacceptable in the US (though some folks are making sure that changes), my country's resources still go toward enabling Israel to do it.
. at the same time that we have open and vocal zionists (their word not mine) running the country, these people lead my country into war through lies. That war is not very beneficial to the US but is very beneficial to israel
While actions like Israel's would be unacceptable in the US (though some folks are making sure that changes), my country's resources still go toward enabling Israel to do it.
Let's see, Scott thinks "a large part of the arab muslim world has been practicing overt religious bigotry basically forever", when asked to expand, his proof is "Saudi Arabia".
But wait...could there be a flaw in the logic ?
Saudi is not a 'large part' of the Arab world.
isn't it? Geographically, it is one of the larger muslim countries. It is also, 'large' in a religious sense, given the location of two pretty important cities for islam.
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Saudi hasn't been around 'forever' - 1926 in fact.
But has practiced overt racism for it's entire modern history. Try getting a jew permission to buy property over there.
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Saudi is run by a minority (but extremely vocal) Islamic sect the Wahabis who are recognized as an heterodox abberation by 80-90% of the worlds muslims.
Wahabiism has not even existed 'forever' - 1740.
Wahabi may be new, but that is pretty irrelevant to the discussion of racism. Iran is not predominatly wahabi, yet that didn't stop the recent edict that any jews who buy property in Iraq should be killed.
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
It's all gone horribly wrong hasn't it ?
Btw: I think you mean Muslim not Arab. Unlesss you want to make your comment even more ridiculous. They are not interchangeable words - there are Christian Arabs, Jewish Arabs...
I would give you another shot at this but I think it's a hopeless case...
Do you think scott may have been refering to something like the charter of Omar? Omar, caliph after Muhammad, codified the 12 laws underwhich we non-believers may live amongst Muslims. If we fail to follow these laws, our lives are forfeit.
Perhaps he meant Muhammad's pronouncement "Two religions may not dwell together on the Arabian Peninsula.", before the mass slaughter of jewish cities and settlements in Arabia.
I am not trying to say that muslims or arabs or more racist than other groups. After all, Muhammad wrote in the qur'an: 17:104 : And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter (wa3?dul akhirati) cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations. which seems a pretty strong reason for followers of Islam to respect and allow Israel to exist today.
To deny appearant racism in Islam and it's history is as vain as trying to deny a racist history in christian history or american history. It's a fact that it is a part of it's history and to some degree a part of it's present.
But you did not answer the question. The question was:
if someone came into your house and removed you and your family to the garage, would you forgive them and consign yourself to living in the garage.
simple yes or no would suffice.
And would you forgive a person who blew up a bus carrying your wife anbd children? No? Great, let's all continue killing each other.
If it were not for people like Fellowship, who at least strive to attain a level of forgiveness that can transend hatred and bigotry, no conflicts would ever really end, until oneside wiped the other out completely.
You on the other hand seem to see forgiveness as an ideal as something to be mocked and ignored.
And would you forgive a person who blew up a bus carrying your wife anbd children? No? Great, let's all continue killing each other.
If it were not for people like Fellowship, who at least strive to attain a level of forgiveness that can transend hatred and bigotry, no conflicts would ever really end, until oneside wiped the other out completely.
You on the other hand seem to see forgiveness as an ideal as something to be mocked and ignored.
Comments
Originally posted by Tulkas
And you are still missing it. I asked for number about how how many deaths had occured since the ceasefire had been in effect. You provided details, unrelated, as to how many deaths during the uprising..showing not a single death during the time frames I asked about.
You are trying to paint Israel as peaceful, even through sarcasm, and it is total BS. I wonder how many palestinian deaths during the Intifada were civilians. How much you want to bet it's a really large percentage? My money shouldn't be going towards the deaths of palestinian civilians, and Israel's powerful military should enable it to not kill civilians.
Or US college students, in case you forgot.
Originally posted by bunge
Sorry Tulkas, but you're just being a dork. You can try and spin what I've said, but that doesn't make it true. I've never supported the idea that Palestinians should be able to push the Israelis into the sea. You have to create your straw man argument to try and defeat my points. Sorry, doesn't work.
Tulkas:"...who's elected representatives have a goal of liquidation of the people of the more powerful country."
bunge" It's no different than you kicking a theif out of our house."
Sounds like a ringing endorement to me.
Originally posted by bunge
Afraid of the word Jew? Why would I be? You're trying to twist what I've said so you can pretend I hate Jews. Why? Because obviously if I hate Jews then I lose the argument. Sorry, doesn't work.
Now, why on earth would I have to pretend that?
Actually, I was only asking why you are afraid of the word. You seem to have at least a disdain for seeing it in print.
Originally posted by bunge
Twisted? You're the one that's twisted. Why don't you go back and quote me instead of paraphrasing. In the process either you'll understand, or I'll be able to defend my words rather than attempting to defend your feeble attempts to twist my own.
done.
Originally posted by bunge
First in line to start a gas chamber? Now that's just sick. If you've got to resort to attacking the person, then obviously you've got a very weak argument. I should say, no argument. Again, go back and quote me. In the process either you'll be enlightened, or at least I can defend my words rather than your paraphrasing.
Look, you start by calling be a racist, and expect no personals back? bunge, I honestly respect you and don't consider you an antisemite, but if you are gonna throw the mud, don't cry when you get hit.
Originally posted by giant
You are trying to paint Israel as peaceful, even through sarcasm, and it is total BS. I wonder how many palestinian deaths during the Intifada were civilians. How much you want to bet it's a really large percentage? My money shouldn't be going towards the deaths of palestinian civilians, and Israel's powerful military should enable it to not kill civilians.
Or US college students, in case you forgot.
Actually, chief, I was trying to paint then as not being the warhungry, blood thirsty people you want them made out to be. Case in point. I ask for numbers about how many deaths since the since ceasefire was implemented, in answer, you totally unrelated graphs and argue about the intifatah and how many palestinian deaths occurred. I guess chnaging the subject, even in so overt a manner serves when the real answer doesn't fit your objective of demonizing the State of Israel.
Originally posted by Tulkas
Actually, chief, I was trying to paint then as not being the warhungry, blood thirsty people you want them made out to be. Case in point. I ask for numbers about how many deaths since the since ceasefire was implemented, in answer, you totally unrelated graphs and argue about the intifatah and how many palestinian deaths occurred. I guess chnaging the subject, even in so overt a manner serves when the real answer doesn't fit your objective of demonizing the State of Israel.
See, you are still doing it. How about we talk about the whole history of Israel? Focusing on one month when the issue at hand spans decades is irresponsible and simply BS.
But what more can we expect from someone who likes to call people 'dicks' and acts like learning is elitist? I would say I expect more out of you, but I don't.
Originally posted by giant
See, you are still doing it. How about we talk about the whole history of Israel? Focusing on one month when the issue at hand spans decades is irresponsible and simply BS.
I am sorry, but if you are looking for more than fairly localized discussions, then you are in the wrong place. Just as this thread discusses a particular issue, so to most threads here.
Want to discuss the whole history of Israel? Feel free to start a thread. Otherwise you are derailing threads throwing in unrelated answers to question.
Originally posted by giant
But what more can we expect from someone who likes to call people 'dicks' and acts like learning is elitist? I would say I expect more out of you, but I don't.
Back to flat out lying to make a point? I never called learning elitist, much as my saying that would make you relavant again. I did say you were an ivory tower, elitist academic..which even in the glorious image you hold of yourself, you know to be true.
Originally posted by Tulkas
I am sorry, but if you are looking for more than fairly localized discussions, then you are in the wrong place. Just as this thread discusses a particular issue, so to most threads here.
Want to discuss the whole history of Israel? Feel free to start a thread. Otherwise you are derailing threads throwing in unrelated answers to question.
OK. This thread is about racism and israel. Go look. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's the title of the thread, but I could be wrong. You are the one trying to change the topic to only looking at a death tool from the past month.
And sorry I didn't follow your rules. I didn't realize you were in charge. Pardon me, sir.
Anyway, so how does the past month, within the larger context of the past few decades, have any impact on the topic that is actually in the title of the thread, racism and Israel?
Originally posted by Tulkas
Sounds like a ringing endorement to me.
That's because you're hearing what you want to hear from me. Like I said, you can out-argue me if I'm saying something that stupid, which I'm not. Israel has extended beyond what it should be. I support getting Israel off of that extended land.
Originally posted by Tulkas
Actually, I was only asking why you are afraid of the word. You seem to have at least a disdain for seeing it in print.
That's almost funny...but not quite. You could put the word "Finns" in its place and I'd react to it in the exact same way in this thread. It's irrelevant. There is no Palestine as of yet, so that's a harder area to define. Israel exists and that's what I'm talking about.
Originally posted by Tulkas
Look, you start by calling be a racist, and expect no personals back?
Sorry, I said you might be a racist. I don't consider that a personal attack. I did however call you a dork, and that was uncalled for. Neither in my opinion is on par with your gas chamber comment though.
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
What humanity needs is forgiveness.
Forgiveness by grace is a power where by all parties are relieved and given a freedom unlike any other. A freedom from resentment, a hardened heart, and bitterness. So so so many acts of sadness and pain are caused by resentment, a hardened heart, and bitterness. People inflict harm or wounds both physical and emotional (because of resentment, a hardened heart and bitterness) which can last if "unforgiven" for generations upon generations. The cycle can only stop via one and only one cure.... Forgiveness....
There is no other way to solve this...
For generations people try by way of failed methods to manage wrongs done to and from others.. only to find no peace.
If there was ever a message given by our Lord Jesus it is to forgive.. The power of forgiveness is beautiful and can advance human love and understang more than any philosophy or materialism of this world.
Without the willing acts to forgive humanity faces more hurt and pain.
With Love from His Grace,
Fellowship
be completely honest. A man (or woman) moves into your house and kicks out out to live in the garage. You will simply forgive them and settle for living in the garage.
Originally posted by Sondjata
be completely honest. A man (or woman) moves into your house and kicks out out to live in the garage. You will simply forgive them and settle for living in the garage.
Sondjata I believe people can forgive and reason together. I will always believe such.
Fellowship
But screw that fact. Let's focus on what the jews are up to lately.
Originally posted by Scott It's funny that everyone has their panties in a twist over some new dumb law that Israel passed when a large part of the arab muslim world has been practicing overt religious bigotry basically forever.
But screw that fact. Let's focus on what the jews are up to lately.
The difference:
. israel recieves a TON of my country's money
. at the same time that we have open and vocal zionists (their word not mine) running the country, these people lead my country into war through lies. That war is not very beneficial to the US but is very beneficial to israel
While actions like Israel's would be unacceptable in the US (though some folks are making sure that changes), my country's resources still go toward enabling Israel to do it.
Originally posted by giant
The difference:
. israel recieves a TON of my country's money
. at the same time that we have open and vocal zionists (their word not mine) running the country, these people lead my country into war through lies. That war is not very beneficial to the US but is very beneficial to israel
While actions like Israel's would be unacceptable in the US (though some folks are making sure that changes), my country's resources still go toward enabling Israel to do it.
Screw the facts. Let's deflect instead!
Originally posted by giant
The difference:
. israel recieves a TON of my country's money
...
So does Egypt and the PA. Go take them to task.
Originally posted by Scott
So does Egypt and the PA. Go take them to task.
Not like Israel. And last time I checked, the folks determining US policy were zionists (Perle & Feith, for example), not egyptians.
Originally posted by segovius
No let's not screw it - I'm too sexed-up already, let's get your 'facts' under the microscope instead.
Examples please - Solid historical academically accepted ones: shouldn't be hard if you really know what you're talking about.
Google isn't necessarily your friend.
Oh god where to start? Um, the entire country of Saudi Arabia. That was easier than I though.
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Sondjata I believe people can forgive and reason together. I will always believe such.
Fellowship
But you did not answer the question. The question was:
if someone came into your house and removed you and your family to the garage, would you forgive them and consign yourself to living in the garage.
simple yes or no would suffice.
Originally posted by segovius
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.....
Let's see, Scott thinks "a large part of the arab muslim world has been practicing overt religious bigotry basically forever", when asked to expand, his proof is "Saudi Arabia".
But wait...could there be a flaw in the logic ?
Saudi is not a 'large part' of the Arab world.
isn't it? Geographically, it is one of the larger muslim countries. It is also, 'large' in a religious sense, given the location of two pretty important cities for islam.
Originally posted by segovius
Saudi hasn't been around 'forever' - 1926 in fact.
But has practiced overt racism for it's entire modern history. Try getting a jew permission to buy property over there.
Originally posted by segovius
Saudi is run by a minority (but extremely vocal) Islamic sect the Wahabis who are recognized as an heterodox abberation by 80-90% of the worlds muslims.
Wahabiism has not even existed 'forever' - 1740.
Wahabi may be new, but that is pretty irrelevant to the discussion of racism. Iran is not predominatly wahabi, yet that didn't stop the recent edict that any jews who buy property in Iraq should be killed.
Originally posted by segovius
It's all gone horribly wrong hasn't it ?
Btw: I think you mean Muslim not Arab. Unlesss you want to make your comment even more ridiculous. They are not interchangeable words - there are Christian Arabs, Jewish Arabs...
I would give you another shot at this but I think it's a hopeless case...
Do you think scott may have been refering to something like the charter of Omar? Omar, caliph after Muhammad, codified the 12 laws underwhich we non-believers may live amongst Muslims. If we fail to follow these laws, our lives are forfeit.
Perhaps he meant Muhammad's pronouncement "Two religions may not dwell together on the Arabian Peninsula.", before the mass slaughter of jewish cities and settlements in Arabia.
I am not trying to say that muslims or arabs or more racist than other groups. After all, Muhammad wrote in the qur'an: 17:104 : And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter (wa3?dul akhirati) cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations. which seems a pretty strong reason for followers of Islam to respect and allow Israel to exist today.
To deny appearant racism in Islam and it's history is as vain as trying to deny a racist history in christian history or american history. It's a fact that it is a part of it's history and to some degree a part of it's present.
Originally posted by Sondjata
But you did not answer the question. The question was:
if someone came into your house and removed you and your family to the garage, would you forgive them and consign yourself to living in the garage.
simple yes or no would suffice.
And would you forgive a person who blew up a bus carrying your wife anbd children? No? Great, let's all continue killing each other.
If it were not for people like Fellowship, who at least strive to attain a level of forgiveness that can transend hatred and bigotry, no conflicts would ever really end, until oneside wiped the other out completely.
You on the other hand seem to see forgiveness as an ideal as something to be mocked and ignored.
Originally posted by Tulkas
And would you forgive a person who blew up a bus carrying your wife anbd children? No? Great, let's all continue killing each other.
If it were not for people like Fellowship, who at least strive to attain a level of forgiveness that can transend hatred and bigotry, no conflicts would ever really end, until oneside wiped the other out completely.
You on the other hand seem to see forgiveness as an ideal as something to be mocked and ignored.
Good point.