So with no mention of the 1GHz, does that perhaps mean that even the 12" gets a 1.25GHz G4 (with the 1.3 destined for the 15" and 17" models)?
That would be great!
Only 50Mhz between high and low end? Seems to me apple will have to give the top end models something extra special in order to sell any of them. Why pay hundreds more for 50mhz?
hopefully they will have 1.42 and 1.25...but i'm just waiting for any PB update. I will gladly buy a powerbook with a high end model of 1.25ghz and low end of 1ghz. By setting my sights low, i cannot be disappointed.
Sadly Paul, I think it's going to be 1 GHZ G4 for the 12" and 1.25 for the 12 and 17 inchers. I will take the overly optimistic view any day though. Hey, afterall, Apple surprised everyone with the slot-loading SuperDrives!
With the lack of updates to the PB today (yesterday for me), and the fact that the deadline I need my PB by is now the end of Oct (it was the end of the month), I went to try cancel my BTO 12" PB order (made on the 4th Sept and with a shipping date on or before the 18th).
Except I can't, as it has already started building. D'oh.
Does building usually take very long? This could mean two things as far as I can guess:
1. Apple are still building revA 12" PBs - which suggests that the updates aren't going to be available immediately even if they are announced.
2. Apple are building revB 12"PBs - which would mean updates soon, possibly very soon!
According to LoopRumors (I know I know, it's a rumor site, but hey...what's wrong with a little bit of hope?) Steve will announce new Powerbooks at Paris. The site claims they will have more details soon. It's not the word of Apple, but it's always interesting to hear such confidence even from a rumor site. I still say just throw the damn G5s in there and down clock them to 1.3Ghz, but that's me dreamin...
Only 50Mhz between high and low end? Seems to me apple will have to give the top end models something extra special in order to sell any of them. Why pay hundreds more for 50mhz?
Well, the difference in the first line of TiBooks was only 100MHz (400 vs. 500), with a price difference of $900...
I don't know. I could see the 12" going more than 1.25. Of course, I have no proof or reasons whatsoever for this...just a gut feeling/hunch.
Seems like we deserve a bit more than 1GHz after all this crap.
Leonis' post brings something to mind: I wonder if they'll split the 15" model - as they currently do - into two distinct versions: a lower-end model with a combo drive and less VRAM than the SuperDrive 15"?
Also, the SuperDrive 15" (as it currently stands) comes with 512MB AND an AirPort card pre-installed (making for, say, $200 or so of the extra money you spend for the higher-end 15").
I wonder how closely any new aluminum 15" models will follow this type of lineup?
I sure wish there was a little more flexibility throughout the line. In other words, say you wanted a 12" BUT you wanted 64MB graphics. And on the other end, say you wanted a nice 17" PowerBook, BUT you were only interested in a combo drive and perhaps saving money by downgrading to a standard video card.
I don't know. I just hate how Apple - for years now - kinda "locks you in" to a model and seems to arbitrarily leave off this or add that or put a governor on this and downgrade that to always seem to prevent you from getting exactly what you want.
I just really wish they'd pack ALL THREE models with the goodies (DVI, FireWire 800, USB 2, L3 cache, cool keyboard, etc.) and make it easy on all us: what size screen would you like?
Sadly Paul, I think it's going to be 1 GHZ G4 for the 12" and 1.25 for the 12 and 17 inchers. I will take the overly optimistic view any day though. Hey, afterall, Apple surprised everyone with the slot-loading SuperDrives!
where then does this place the ibook , no updates to protect the PB???? most people don't feel the dif from the g3 or g4
the new pb if not g5 better have outstanding features, because the ibook at 1g is alot cheaper so .......how to place the pro line and the consumer line.
can the superdrive stay at 2x??? they got to give us more if it's not a g5
The 4% difference between 1.25 GHz and 1.3 GHz is so small that I don't even understand why Moto would make the distinction. Offhand (i.e., without giving it much thought) I can't think of any processor that offers two such closely spaced versions. I'd be pretty surprised to see both 1.25 GHz and 1.3 GHz in the same product line; more likely 1 GHz and 1.3 GHz, or maybe, by dint of some unforeseen miracle, something like 1.25 GHz and 1.4 GHz.
The 7457 Electrical Specs state that the three speed grades are 867 MHz, 1 GHz, and 1.3 GHz (all at 1.6V core voltage.) Typical power consumption for the 1 Ghz is 15.8W, and typical for the 1.3 GHz is 18.7W. Remember, just for chuckles, that the G5 consumes around 20W at 1.2 GHz, right in the same range as the 1.3 GHz part.
There is also, described here the low power version, running at 1.1V core voltage, which consumes the oft-quoted 8.3W at 1 GHz. But there is no higher speed version of this part promised. That's a fabulous processor for the 12", or even for a G4 iBook. But Apple would need to resort to the higher-power version to get the 1.3 Ghz part. The data sheet does say that the parts will be re-characterized in August, so who knows what the real poop is, or if Apple will have access to otherwise unannounced versions of the part.
Assuming the data sheets are reasonably accurate, the more I look at these numbers, the more reasonable it seems to have a dual-processor PowerBook, especially on the 17" where there should be plenty of room. Two of the low-power 1GHz parts could still be less power than the 1.3 GHz part (though L3 cache would even it up), and would make for a nicer machine. They could play the game where one processor is shut down when running on battery (or maybe a settable option?).
I don't have a clue what's really going to happen, but until the G5 PowerBook is ready there are some interesting possibilities. Unfortunately none of the single-processor G4 possibilities are particularly great, but at this point anything would be great.
I just really wish they'd pack ALL THREE models with the goodies (DVI, FireWire 800, USB 2, L3 cache, cool keyboard, etc.) and make it easy on all us: what size screen would you like?
Kinda makes sense. When the white iBooks were first introduced, the only real difference between the three models was the optical drive. It sure made a decision easier.
I have a feeling though, that the 12" model PowerBook will always have a lower power processor to keep the heat down. I also think Apple wants more bells and whistles (other than just screen size) in the bigger more expensive models to make them sell.
I just really wish they'd pack ALL THREE models with the goodies (DVI, FireWire 800, USB 2, L3 cache, cool keyboard, etc.) and make it easy on all us: what size screen would you like?
They'd all sell like CRAZY!!!
You know, I can not understand why Apple does not do this. I like the 12" model, but just don't want to make the sacrifices Apple requires. At least give options to pick and choose while maintaining the standard models. Or offer a canned 12" good, better, best, 15" good better best, etc. It seems that SJ likes 'options', but he doesn't like giving his customers options. Perhaps this is why Apple has such low market-share
Of course, maybe it is that I am in the market for the 15" model (since Apple doesn't do what pscates rightly wishes), and am getting just a little bit impatient! Must...remain...cool...8)
You know, I can not understand why Apple does not do this [give all Powerbooks equal specs, save screen size]. I like the 12" model, but just don't want to make the sacrifices Apple requires. At least give options to pick and choose while maintaining the standard models. Or offer a canned 12" good, better, best, 15" good better best, etc. It seems that SJ likes 'options', but he doesn't like giving his customers options. Perhaps this is why Apple has such low market-share
?and such high margins.
The 12" is crippled on purpose so that people will buy the more expensive and more profitable 15" and 17" models. Does it suck? Yes. Is it gonna change? No.
After reflecting on today's announcements and rumors (and a glass or two of excellent chardonnay) I have a new gut feeling/prediction for the new PBs at Paris Expo. First, a few increasingly safe assumptions:
Though today's iMac and iPod updates were relatively low-key, they have actually made a pretty big splash at apple.com. The new bold and colorful iPod graphics are quite a change to the site and I don't see them being yanked off the mainpage for the next week. So?
Steve will feature the new Powerbooks in his keynote, which means they must be more than a mere speedbump ala today's iMacs. So what, given our current understanding and limitations (thank you, Moto) makes a PB update "keynote worthy"? (Thank you, Elaine Benes.)
Answer: dual procs. It's the only rabbit Steve can pull out of his hat. The G5 is too big and hot (they'll rightly wait for the .09 revision next year) so the only way to justify the "Year of the Laptop" is another Apple first: a dual processor portable.
So without further ado, the three models we'll see at Paris:
12" Powerbook
1 GHz 7457 G4 with 1 MB L3 cache
Radeon Mobility 9000 32 MB
Combo Drive $1599
Superdrive $1799
15" Powerbook (Aluminum case, natch)
1.3 GHz 7457 G4 with 1 MB L3 cache
Radeon Mobility 9600 64 MB
Superdrive (one model only)
$2599
17" Powerbook
DUAL 1.3 GHz 7457 G4 with 1 MB L3 cache
Radeon Mobility 9600 64 MB
Airport Extreme and internal Bluetooth built in.
Superdrive
$3299
Katie bar the door, they'll sell like hotcakes! (I'll be first in line for the dualie 17".)
The 12" is crippled on purpose so that people will buy the more expensive and more profitable 15" and 17" models. Does it suck? Yes. Is it gonna change? No.
Agreed.
I actually think that Apple cripples its machines so they don't compete between lines (say the old G4 towers and the iMac), which is stupid. If the 12" had fw800, ap extreme, etc, the 15" would have totally tanked, I think. The 12" had to be "crippled" more than usual because the 15" wasn't updated (imho). But that is neither here nor there...
My point from pscates quote is that the machines are too differentiated within a line, and I really don't see why Apple makes such a distinction. If I want a small portable, does Apple really think that by kludging the 12" they will make me buy the 15"? No, I don't want the 15", I want a 12". They have only stopped me from buying an Apple portable, not for upgrading to a different model. I think the single feature set, different screen sizes is fine. But as you say, it is not gonna change...
ahem...yes, well, to keep this on topic: the 15" is coming soon.
Answer: dual procs. It's the only rabbit Steve can pull out of his hat.
Unlikely. Apple will have to consider the move to G5 in the future. Going dual G4 now and to a single G5 in half a year would not look so good. And I cannot see dual G5 (even with the shrink to 90nm) in the PB since the whole architecture of the G5 is rather power-consuming.
I still believe it's either G5 time (to hell with battery life, give the customers all the shiny new stuff right now) with speeds of 1.0 to 1.3 Ghz or we'll see a rather underwhelming G4 "tide us over" release with speeds from 1.0 to 1.33 Ghz. If you consider it, a 33% speedup is nothing too bad, just the idea of another round of G4s is no longer sexy.
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver Though today's iMac and iPod updates were relatively low-key, they have actually made a pretty big splash at apple.com. The new bold and colorful iPod graphics are quite a change to the site and I don't see them being yanked off the mainpage for the next week. So?
Well, don't forget: Apple can (and, in the past, HAS) set their front page up to "rotate" different products. They could easily do the colorful new iPod thing AND new PowerBooks (and even Panther, if, by some miracle, it too was announced in Paris next week).
Nothing would have to be "yanked". You'd just see a different front page every time you refreshed or revisited the site. They've done it quite a bit over the past couple of years, actually.
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver So without further ado, the three models we'll see at Paris:
12" Powerbook
1 GHz 7457 G4 with 1 MB L3 cache
Radeon Mobility 9000 32 MB
Combo Drive $1599
Superdrive $1799
15" Powerbook (Aluminum case, natch)
1.3 GHz 7457 G4 with 1 MB L3 cache
Radeon Mobility 9600 64 MB
Superdrive (one model only)
$2599
So they're going to leave this huge, whopping hole between $1799 and $2599 and NOT offer a popular, high-selling Combo Drive-equipped 15" PowerBook?
I don't THINK so! They'd be pretty much killing 15" PowerBook sales because a) not everyone wants/needs a SuperDrive and b) not everyone has $2600 laying around, but they could swing $1999 or so.
I would really love to find out what the story is on the Powerbooks for the past year. Going back to last Nov and the release of the 1GHz 15", then shortly thereafter releasing two totally new models - strange, that. Why didn't they just release the three models together (meaning the 15" Al model)? Now the long span between updates in the year of the PB (yes, I know, SJ is prone to marketing hyperbole). Maybe Moto screwed up, or maybe they had planned to go to the G5, but couldn't do that...who knows.
Now consider the immediate future...what if this update is minor bump to 1.25GHz (and Al, of course)? The PB will get killed in the press (9+ month wait for that?!?), and I would guess sales will drop as everyone waits for the G5. Not too good. I think that Ensign Pulver's specs are very respectable (but doubt that dual at the top), and I would probably go out and get the 15" model, since I do need to upgrade. Of course, I dream that Apple just bit the bullet, and puts a 1-1.25GHz G5 in the top end models at least. Should be an interesting keynote, too bad it wont be streamed...
Comments
Originally posted by pscates
So with no mention of the 1GHz, does that perhaps mean that even the 12" gets a 1.25GHz G4 (with the 1.3 destined for the 15" and 17" models)?
That would be great!
Only 50Mhz between high and low end? Seems to me apple will have to give the top end models something extra special in order to sell any of them. Why pay hundreds more for 50mhz?
hopefully they will have 1.42 and 1.25...but i'm just waiting for any PB update. I will gladly buy a powerbook with a high end model of 1.25ghz and low end of 1ghz. By setting my sights low, i cannot be disappointed.
Except I can't, as it has already started building. D'oh.
Does building usually take very long? This could mean two things as far as I can guess:
1. Apple are still building revA 12" PBs - which suggests that the updates aren't going to be available immediately even if they are announced.
2. Apple are building revB 12"PBs - which would mean updates soon, possibly very soon!
Originally posted by Cosmo
Only 50Mhz between high and low end? Seems to me apple will have to give the top end models something extra special in order to sell any of them. Why pay hundreds more for 50mhz?
Well, the difference in the first line of TiBooks was only 100MHz (400 vs. 500), with a price difference of $900...
1GHz 12" Mini Me
1GHz 15" Ai
1.3GHz 15" Ai
1.3GHz Lapzilla
Seems like we deserve a bit more than 1GHz after all this crap.
Leonis' post brings something to mind: I wonder if they'll split the 15" model - as they currently do - into two distinct versions: a lower-end model with a combo drive and less VRAM than the SuperDrive 15"?
Also, the SuperDrive 15" (as it currently stands) comes with 512MB AND an AirPort card pre-installed (making for, say, $200 or so of the extra money you spend for the higher-end 15").
I wonder how closely any new aluminum 15" models will follow this type of lineup?
I sure wish there was a little more flexibility throughout the line. In other words, say you wanted a 12" BUT you wanted 64MB graphics. And on the other end, say you wanted a nice 17" PowerBook, BUT you were only interested in a combo drive and perhaps saving money by downgrading to a standard video card.
I don't know. I just hate how Apple - for years now - kinda "locks you in" to a model and seems to arbitrarily leave off this or add that or put a governor on this and downgrade that to always seem to prevent you from getting exactly what you want.
I just really wish they'd pack ALL THREE models with the goodies (DVI, FireWire 800, USB 2, L3 cache, cool keyboard, etc.) and make it easy on all us: what size screen would you like?
They'd all sell like CRAZY!!!
Originally posted by DHagan4755
Sadly Paul, I think it's going to be 1 GHZ G4 for the 12" and 1.25 for the 12 and 17 inchers. I will take the overly optimistic view any day though. Hey, afterall, Apple surprised everyone with the slot-loading SuperDrives!
where then does this place the ibook , no updates to protect the PB???? most people don't feel the dif from the g3 or g4
the new pb if not g5 better have outstanding features, because the ibook at 1g is alot cheaper so .......how to place the pro line and the consumer line.
can the superdrive stay at 2x??? they got to give us more if it's not a g5
Originally posted by BrunoBruin
Well, the difference in the first line of TiBooks was only 100MHz (400 vs. 500), with a price difference of $900...
but at that time the top end was 25% faster than the cheaper model. 50mhz would make the top end only 4% faster
this is all talking about processor speed alone.
The 7457 Electrical Specs state that the three speed grades are 867 MHz, 1 GHz, and 1.3 GHz (all at 1.6V core voltage.) Typical power consumption for the 1 Ghz is 15.8W, and typical for the 1.3 GHz is 18.7W. Remember, just for chuckles, that the G5 consumes around 20W at 1.2 GHz, right in the same range as the 1.3 GHz part.
There is also, described here the low power version, running at 1.1V core voltage, which consumes the oft-quoted 8.3W at 1 GHz. But there is no higher speed version of this part promised. That's a fabulous processor for the 12", or even for a G4 iBook. But Apple would need to resort to the higher-power version to get the 1.3 Ghz part. The data sheet does say that the parts will be re-characterized in August, so who knows what the real poop is, or if Apple will have access to otherwise unannounced versions of the part.
Assuming the data sheets are reasonably accurate, the more I look at these numbers, the more reasonable it seems to have a dual-processor PowerBook, especially on the 17" where there should be plenty of room. Two of the low-power 1GHz parts could still be less power than the 1.3 GHz part (though L3 cache would even it up), and would make for a nicer machine. They could play the game where one processor is shut down when running on battery (or maybe a settable option?).
I don't have a clue what's really going to happen, but until the G5 PowerBook is ready there are some interesting possibilities. Unfortunately none of the single-processor G4 possibilities are particularly great, but at this point anything would be great.
Other than that, it looks to be 12" city, baby! (MAYBE 15" if the spec
Originally posted by pscates
I just really wish they'd pack ALL THREE models with the goodies (DVI, FireWire 800, USB 2, L3 cache, cool keyboard, etc.) and make it easy on all us: what size screen would you like?
Kinda makes sense. When the white iBooks were first introduced, the only real difference between the three models was the optical drive. It sure made a decision easier.
I have a feeling though, that the 12" model PowerBook will always have a lower power processor to keep the heat down. I also think Apple wants more bells and whistles (other than just screen size) in the bigger more expensive models to make them sell.
Originally posted by pscates
I'd happily buy the 17" if they made it dual processor...and sold it for about $2299.
I would happily pay the current $3299 for a dual processor 17" Powerbook.
I bet a lot of other people would too.
Originally posted by pscates
I just really wish they'd pack ALL THREE models with the goodies (DVI, FireWire 800, USB 2, L3 cache, cool keyboard, etc.) and make it easy on all us: what size screen would you like?
They'd all sell like CRAZY!!!
You know, I can not understand why Apple does not do this. I like the 12" model, but just don't want to make the sacrifices Apple requires. At least give options to pick and choose while maintaining the standard models. Or offer a canned 12" good, better, best, 15" good better best, etc. It seems that SJ likes 'options', but he doesn't like giving his customers options. Perhaps this is why Apple has such low market-share
Of course, maybe it is that I am in the market for the 15" model (since Apple doesn't do what pscates rightly wishes), and am getting just a little bit impatient! Must...remain...cool...8)
[edit] a little clarity required
Originally posted by Thai Moof
You know, I can not understand why Apple does not do this [give all Powerbooks equal specs, save screen size]. I like the 12" model, but just don't want to make the sacrifices Apple requires. At least give options to pick and choose while maintaining the standard models. Or offer a canned 12" good, better, best, 15" good better best, etc. It seems that SJ likes 'options', but he doesn't like giving his customers options. Perhaps this is why Apple has such low market-share
?and such high margins.
The 12" is crippled on purpose so that people will buy the more expensive and more profitable 15" and 17" models. Does it suck? Yes. Is it gonna change? No.
Though today's iMac and iPod updates were relatively low-key, they have actually made a pretty big splash at apple.com. The new bold and colorful iPod graphics are quite a change to the site and I don't see them being yanked off the mainpage for the next week. So?
Steve will feature the new Powerbooks in his keynote, which means they must be more than a mere speedbump ala today's iMacs. So what, given our current understanding and limitations (thank you, Moto) makes a PB update "keynote worthy"? (Thank you, Elaine Benes.)
Answer: dual procs. It's the only rabbit Steve can pull out of his hat. The G5 is too big and hot (they'll rightly wait for the .09 revision next year) so the only way to justify the "Year of the Laptop" is another Apple first: a dual processor portable.
So without further ado, the three models we'll see at Paris:
12" Powerbook
1 GHz 7457 G4 with 1 MB L3 cache
Radeon Mobility 9000 32 MB
Combo Drive $1599
Superdrive $1799
15" Powerbook (Aluminum case, natch)
1.3 GHz 7457 G4 with 1 MB L3 cache
Radeon Mobility 9600 64 MB
Superdrive (one model only)
$2599
17" Powerbook
DUAL 1.3 GHz 7457 G4 with 1 MB L3 cache
Radeon Mobility 9600 64 MB
Airport Extreme and internal Bluetooth built in.
Superdrive
$3299
Katie bar the door, they'll sell like hotcakes! (I'll be first in line for the dualie 17".)
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
?and such high margins.
The 12" is crippled on purpose so that people will buy the more expensive and more profitable 15" and 17" models. Does it suck? Yes. Is it gonna change? No.
Agreed.
I actually think that Apple cripples its machines so they don't compete between lines (say the old G4 towers and the iMac), which is stupid. If the 12" had fw800, ap extreme, etc, the 15" would have totally tanked, I think. The 12" had to be "crippled" more than usual because the 15" wasn't updated (imho). But that is neither here nor there...
My point from pscates quote is that the machines are too differentiated within a line, and I really don't see why Apple makes such a distinction. If I want a small portable, does Apple really think that by kludging the 12" they will make me buy the 15"? No, I don't want the 15", I want a 12". They have only stopped me from buying an Apple portable, not for upgrading to a different model. I think the single feature set, different screen sizes is fine. But as you say, it is not gonna change...
ahem...yes, well, to keep this on topic: the 15" is coming soon.
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
Answer: dual procs. It's the only rabbit Steve can pull out of his hat.
Unlikely. Apple will have to consider the move to G5 in the future. Going dual G4 now and to a single G5 in half a year would not look so good. And I cannot see dual G5 (even with the shrink to 90nm) in the PB since the whole architecture of the G5 is rather power-consuming.
I still believe it's either G5 time (to hell with battery life, give the customers all the shiny new stuff right now) with speeds of 1.0 to 1.3 Ghz or we'll see a rather underwhelming G4 "tide us over" release with speeds from 1.0 to 1.33 Ghz. If you consider it, a 33% speedup is nothing too bad, just the idea of another round of G4s is no longer sexy.
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver Though today's iMac and iPod updates were relatively low-key, they have actually made a pretty big splash at apple.com. The new bold and colorful iPod graphics are quite a change to the site and I don't see them being yanked off the mainpage for the next week. So?
Well, don't forget: Apple can (and, in the past, HAS) set their front page up to "rotate" different products. They could easily do the colorful new iPod thing AND new PowerBooks (and even Panther, if, by some miracle, it too was announced in Paris next week).
Nothing would have to be "yanked". You'd just see a different front page every time you refreshed or revisited the site. They've done it quite a bit over the past couple of years, actually.
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver So without further ado, the three models we'll see at Paris:
12" Powerbook
1 GHz 7457 G4 with 1 MB L3 cache
Radeon Mobility 9000 32 MB
Combo Drive $1599
Superdrive $1799
15" Powerbook (Aluminum case, natch)
1.3 GHz 7457 G4 with 1 MB L3 cache
Radeon Mobility 9600 64 MB
Superdrive (one model only)
$2599
So they're going to leave this huge, whopping hole between $1799 and $2599 and NOT offer a popular, high-selling Combo Drive-equipped 15" PowerBook?
I don't THINK so! They'd be pretty much killing 15" PowerBook sales because a) not everyone wants/needs a SuperDrive and b) not everyone has $2600 laying around, but they could swing $1999 or so.
I ain't agreein' with this AT ALL.
Now consider the immediate future...what if this update is minor bump to 1.25GHz (and Al, of course)? The PB will get killed in the press (9+ month wait for that?!?), and I would guess sales will drop as everyone waits for the G5. Not too good. I think that Ensign Pulver's specs are very respectable (but doubt that dual at the top), and I would probably go out and get the 15" model, since I do need to upgrade. Of course, I dream that Apple just bit the bullet, and puts a 1-1.25GHz G5 in the top end models at least. Should be an interesting keynote, too bad it wont be streamed...