It seems to me that Apple is leaving it a bit late for intermediate updates. If they don't get a move on they face a greater risk. We all know that Steve said 12 months to reach 3ghz, if they don't get the 2.6's out soon many people will just hang on for the 3ghz machines.
The only way out of this would be for Apple to say that we won't now see 3ghz before January or to release some intermedate machines very soon.
[snipperdesnippersnip] It could also be argued that the PowerMac is not where current efforts need to be expended, the rest of the product line is looking rather sad.
Powermacs are still saying, "same day shipping" on the Apple Online store.\
And why wouldn't they?
It is barely six month since the RevA, IBM is only now able to produce 90nm 970s at 2Ghz. We absolutely know nothing about the maximum frequency they have achieved, but it could well be that 2Ghz is the top of the line right now. If this was the case, 2.4Gh+ could be expected only after the 90nm process is further refined - maybe April or May. Which would push 3Ghz to fall/winter.
Especially for the Power Mac, there is evidence that one has to wait until the end of March:
Quote:
G4 Trade-in Program for G5s?
"Here's a tip - don't expect new G5's before 3/26/2004. Apple Oz (Australia) have just introduced a trade up program - they give buyers A$1000.00 (appx. $775 US) tradein for a G4 (no specific model mentioned) on a new G5, The program starts today and ends 3/26/2004 so I'm guessing the new G5's are released 3/27/2004 or soon thereafter."
It is barely six month since the RevA, IBM is only now able to produce 90nm 970s at 2Ghz. We absolutely know nothing about the maximum frequency they have achieved, but it could well be that 2Ghz is the top of the line right now. If this was the case, 2.4Gh+ could be expected only after the 90nm process is further refined - maybe April or May. Which would push 3Ghz to fall/winter.
"Only now" ???? If the 90nm is soon to ship in the Xserve, it has been in production for months. I think they are doing a LOT better than that. The avg computer buyer does not care about the fab size, they want Mhz... so even though we know there is fab progress, we also know that a 2Ghz top end for six months is a bit too long- esp given what we have been told about how "amazingly scalable" the 970 is.
You have to know that if SJ made the forecast "within a year" - that he has already seen or has absolute assurance that 3Ghz is not too hard to achieve. AAPL marketing knows the damage of letting people down with statements like that.
Look at the G5 intro video - "We are already working on the next generation of PowerPC G5 processors" - that was back in what, August?
Look at the G5 intro video - "We are already working on the next generation of PowerPC G5 processors" - that was back in what, August?
"Working on" means to me: "we don't have it ready yet". If they didn't have it in August, chances are that they got the first industrial batch in Dec, leaving Jan/Feb to optimizing the process to get better yields.
For all I know:
- there has not been an official announcement from IBM concerning their revised 970 at 90nm.
- No piece running with more than 2Ghz has been sighted.
- From a IBM paper on the 970fx I have seen it was clear that it would support a bus speed of up to 1.1Ghz - translating to top speeds of 2.2Ghz.
- The XServe is not a machine that is sold in the millions. That Apple chose it to introduce the 970fx tells me that they don't have an awful lot of those chips at their disposal.
Jobs may have promised 3Ghz chips to us - but that does not mean he won't push back the delivery of machines with that frequency if the chips do not arrive in time.
Jobs may have promised 3Ghz chips to us - but that does not mean he won't push back the delivery of machines with that frequency if the chips do not arrive in time.
or sell it to us as an bto with a $4,000.00 (or more) price tag if it is available but has very low yields...
Quote:
Originally posted by Smircle
[snipperdesnip]
We absolutely know nothing about the maximum frequency they have achieved, but it could well be that 2Ghz is the top of the line right now.
[snippie]
i think at least 2.3Ghz. i don't believe such a mistake as on the canadian apple website comes out of the blue.
Remember, Apple reserves the right to cancel a promotion at any time without notice. The expiration dates they have are not set in stone. You can see what I mean, right here...
Apple reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to change, modify, add or remove portions of these Terms of Use, at any time. It is your responsibility to check these Terms of Use periodically for changes. Your continued use of the Site following the posting of changes will mean that you accept and agree to the changes. As long as you comply with these Terms of Use, Apple grants you a personal, non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited privilege to enter and use the Site.
So exactly where is this program listed.I cant find it on Apple Austrailias website.The only thing I found is the "Every mac needs .mac" promotion and it ends on March 27th. This trade in stuff doesnt even sound believable. Over 700 US dallors for ANY G4....even one I bought in 1999?
- there has not been an official announcement from IBM concerning their revised 970 at 90nm.
- No piece running with more than 2Ghz has been sighted.
- From a IBM paper on the 970fx I have seen it was clear that it would support a bus speed of up to 1.1Ghz - translating to top speeds of 2.2Ghz.
Remember that pdf was clearly "sanitized".It listed the speeds of the 970fx as "1.4 to 2.0+".In other words they aint gonna tell,by Apples request of course.So dont make too much of the 1.1 ghz bus speed-they just mean it is faster than the current model.I dont know when Apple will release new machines,very soon most likely,but a 2.2 top end doesnt seem probable.If they could only do a 10% increase they wouldnt even bother.Mac followers seem cynical enough already with out that.Smells too much like motoholer and I am not ready to believe IBM is in that boat.
Dont forget, Intel just announced a 3.4G P4 - and it will most likely get to 4GHz by about this time next year!.
I know we will get 2.4-2.6G now and 3G by June. Now I know why - I think for Apple to remained competitive in the PRO space, it may need to be shipping 3.4+ by this time next year.
Im not too worried about the PowerMacs, I guess Im more concerned that Intels chips tend to get deployed even in their low end towers. So I think this will put pressure on Apple to deploy G5's into their iMac and Powerbook lines.
Im not too worried about the PowerMacs, I guess Im more concerned that Intels chips tend to get deployed even in their low end towers. So I think this will put pressure on Apple to deploy G5's into their iMac and Powerbook lines.
Remember that pdf was clearly "sanitized".It listed the speeds of the 970fx as "1.4 to 2.0+".In other words they aint gonna tell,by Apples request of course.
Or because they are looking at a longer timespan and it reads "1.4 - 2.0Ghz right now, up to 3Ghz later".
The line between reasonable extrapolation and wishful thinking is a thin one...
Quote:
If they could only do a 10% increase they wouldnt even bother.Mac followers seem cynical enough already with out that.Smells too much like motoholer and I am not ready to believe IBM is in that boat.
Just look at the new 90nm P4 intel just announced today: it upped the max clockspeed from 3.2 to 3.4Ghz, whooptidooo, what an increase. What _is_ remarkable about the new P4 is the much longer pipeline showing they did not even try to transition to finer structures and increase the clock frequency but did the transition first and will come out with faster chips in a second stage. This way they avoided having two sources of trouble to worry about at once.
I believe IBM will do precisely the same. 2Ghz/130nm -> 2.2Ghz/90nm now, then 2.2Ghz/90nm -> 3Ghz/90nm in early fall.
Just look at the new 90nm P4 intel just announced today: it upped the max clockspeed from 3.2 to 3.4Ghz, whooptidooo, what an increase. What _is_ remarkable about the new P4 is the much longer pipeline showing they did not even try to transition to finer structures and increase the clock frequency but did the transition first and will come out with faster chips in a second stage. This way they avoided having two sources of trouble to worry about at once.
I think the pipeline went up 2 stages only with the Prescott. 28 up to 30.
The reviews so far have shown that performance gains of the chip are non existant, and indeed it performs at around the same speed as a 2.8-3 ghz P4 only! People are distinctly underwhelmed and percieve the release to be merely a marketing ghz issue at this stage...
... What _is_ remarkable about the new P4 is the much longer pipeline ...
What is really remarkable about the new P4 is that it consumes 90 to 100 watts, meaning that most, if not all, PC cabinet designs do not provide sufficient cooling. Say goodbye to Shuttle cabinets for this power hog.
Comments
The only way out of this would be for Apple to say that we won't now see 3ghz before January or to release some intermedate machines very soon.
Originally posted by wizard69
[snipperdesnippersnip] It could also be argued that the PowerMac is not where current efforts need to be expended, the rest of the product line is looking rather sad.
Dave
i agree with that
you'r a b s o l u t e l y right
Originally posted by Jubelum
For the Love of Steve, can anyone confirm the EOL-ing of the current G5s? Puuuulllleeeeeze?
ditto!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
Powermacs are still saying, "same day shipping" on the Apple Online store.
And why wouldn't they?
It is barely six month since the RevA, IBM is only now able to produce 90nm 970s at 2Ghz. We absolutely know nothing about the maximum frequency they have achieved, but it could well be that 2Ghz is the top of the line right now. If this was the case, 2.4Gh+ could be expected only after the 90nm process is further refined - maybe April or May. Which would push 3Ghz to fall/winter.
G4 Trade-in Program for G5s?
"Here's a tip - don't expect new G5's before 3/26/2004. Apple Oz (Australia) have just introduced a trade up program - they give buyers A$1000.00 (appx. $775 US) tradein for a G4 (no specific model mentioned) on a new G5, The program starts today and ends 3/26/2004 so I'm guessing the new G5's are released 3/27/2004 or soon thereafter."
From Xlr8.
Originally posted by Smircle
And why wouldn't they?
It is barely six month since the RevA, IBM is only now able to produce 90nm 970s at 2Ghz. We absolutely know nothing about the maximum frequency they have achieved, but it could well be that 2Ghz is the top of the line right now. If this was the case, 2.4Gh+ could be expected only after the 90nm process is further refined - maybe April or May. Which would push 3Ghz to fall/winter.
"Only now" ???? If the 90nm is soon to ship in the Xserve, it has been in production for months. I think they are doing a LOT better than that. The avg computer buyer does not care about the fab size, they want Mhz... so even though we know there is fab progress, we also know that a 2Ghz top end for six months is a bit too long- esp given what we have been told about how "amazingly scalable" the 970 is.
You have to know that if SJ made the forecast "within a year" - that he has already seen or has absolute assurance that 3Ghz is not too hard to achieve. AAPL marketing knows the damage of letting people down with statements like that.
Look at the G5 intro video - "We are already working on the next generation of PowerPC G5 processors" - that was back in what, August?
Originally posted by Jubelum
Look at the G5 intro video - "We are already working on the next generation of PowerPC G5 processors" - that was back in what, August?
"Working on" means to me: "we don't have it ready yet". If they didn't have it in August, chances are that they got the first industrial batch in Dec, leaving Jan/Feb to optimizing the process to get better yields.
For all I know:
- there has not been an official announcement from IBM concerning their revised 970 at 90nm.
- No piece running with more than 2Ghz has been sighted.
- From a IBM paper on the 970fx I have seen it was clear that it would support a bus speed of up to 1.1Ghz - translating to top speeds of 2.2Ghz.
- The XServe is not a machine that is sold in the millions. That Apple chose it to introduce the 970fx tells me that they don't have an awful lot of those chips at their disposal.
Jobs may have promised 3Ghz chips to us - but that does not mean he won't push back the delivery of machines with that frequency if the chips do not arrive in time.
Originally posted by Smircle
[snipperdesnip]
Jobs may have promised 3Ghz chips to us - but that does not mean he won't push back the delivery of machines with that frequency if the chips do not arrive in time.
or sell it to us as an bto with a $4,000.00 (or more) price tag if it is available but has very low yields...
Originally posted by Smircle
[snipperdesnip]
We absolutely know nothing about the maximum frequency they have achieved, but it could well be that 2Ghz is the top of the line right now.
[snippie]
i think at least 2.3Ghz. i don't believe such a mistake as on the canadian apple website comes out of the blue.
Apple reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to change, modify, add or remove portions of these Terms of Use, at any time. It is your responsibility to check these Terms of Use periodically for changes. Your continued use of the Site following the posting of changes will mean that you accept and agree to the changes. As long as you comply with these Terms of Use, Apple grants you a personal, non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited privilege to enter and use the Site.
Found here
Apple reserves the right to change the Terms and Conditions of this offer, at any time without notice.
And here
Originally posted by PB
Especially for the Power Mac, there is evidence that one has to wait until the end of March:
From Xlr8.
So exactly where is this program listed.I cant find it on Apple Austrailias website.The only thing I found is the "Every mac needs .mac" promotion and it ends on March 27th. This trade in stuff doesnt even sound believable. Over 700 US dallors for ANY G4....even one I bought in 1999?
Whats up with that?
For all I know:
- there has not been an official announcement from IBM concerning their revised 970 at 90nm.
- No piece running with more than 2Ghz has been sighted.
- From a IBM paper on the 970fx I have seen it was clear that it would support a bus speed of up to 1.1Ghz - translating to top speeds of 2.2Ghz.
Remember that pdf was clearly "sanitized".It listed the speeds of the 970fx as "1.4 to 2.0+".In other words they aint gonna tell,by Apples request of course.So dont make too much of the 1.1 ghz bus speed-they just mean it is faster than the current model.I dont know when Apple will release new machines,very soon most likely,but a 2.2 top end doesnt seem probable.If they could only do a 10% increase they wouldnt even bother.Mac followers seem cynical enough already with out that.Smells too much like motoholer and I am not ready to believe IBM is in that boat.
I know we will get 2.4-2.6G now and 3G by June. Now I know why - I think for Apple to remained competitive in the PRO space, it may need to be shipping 3.4+ by this time next year.
Im not too worried about the PowerMacs, I guess Im more concerned that Intels chips tend to get deployed even in their low end towers. So I think this will put pressure on Apple to deploy G5's into their iMac and Powerbook lines.
Just my observation.
Originally posted by hasapi
Im not too worried about the PowerMacs, I guess Im more concerned that Intels chips tend to get deployed even in their low end towers. So I think this will put pressure on Apple to deploy G5's into their iMac and Powerbook lines.
I could think of worse things to happen
Originally posted by cuneglasus
Remember that pdf was clearly "sanitized".It listed the speeds of the 970fx as "1.4 to 2.0+".In other words they aint gonna tell,by Apples request of course.
Or because they are looking at a longer timespan and it reads "1.4 - 2.0Ghz right now, up to 3Ghz later".
The line between reasonable extrapolation and wishful thinking is a thin one...
If they could only do a 10% increase they wouldnt even bother.Mac followers seem cynical enough already with out that.Smells too much like motoholer and I am not ready to believe IBM is in that boat.
Just look at the new 90nm P4 intel just announced today: it upped the max clockspeed from 3.2 to 3.4Ghz, whooptidooo, what an increase. What _is_ remarkable about the new P4 is the much longer pipeline showing they did not even try to transition to finer structures and increase the clock frequency but did the transition first and will come out with faster chips in a second stage. This way they avoided having two sources of trouble to worry about at once.
I believe IBM will do precisely the same. 2Ghz/130nm -> 2.2Ghz/90nm now, then 2.2Ghz/90nm -> 3Ghz/90nm in early fall.
Originally posted by Smircle
Just look at the new 90nm P4 intel just announced today: it upped the max clockspeed from 3.2 to 3.4Ghz, whooptidooo, what an increase. What _is_ remarkable about the new P4 is the much longer pipeline showing they did not even try to transition to finer structures and increase the clock frequency but did the transition first and will come out with faster chips in a second stage. This way they avoided having two sources of trouble to worry about at once.
I think the pipeline went up 2 stages only with the Prescott. 28 up to 30.
The reviews so far have shown that performance gains of the chip are non existant, and indeed it performs at around the same speed as a 2.8-3 ghz P4 only! People are distinctly underwhelmed and percieve the release to be merely a marketing ghz issue at this stage...
Originally posted by Smircle
... What _is_ remarkable about the new P4 is the much longer pipeline ...
What is really remarkable about the new P4 is that it consumes 90 to 100 watts, meaning that most, if not all, PC cabinet designs do not provide sufficient cooling. Say goodbye to Shuttle cabinets for this power hog.
see here for short test of new P4
Originally posted by knappa
see here for short test of new P4
Thanks!