... Let me give you a quick example of why I was dismayed to find out about one-button mice. My option boxes can be set positively or negatively. To set positively, left-click. Negatively, right-click. Left-click to clear. Very quick, very user-friendly. ...
Not user-friendly at all. This usage is completely nonstandard in any environment, even Windows. Listen, RainbowGuy: GUIs are defined by consistency. The user should know what to expect, and the programmer should program in a way that meets the user's expectation. I know you think you're being clever, but forget it. When it comes to user interfaces, cleverness is bad, consistency is all-important. Reread that last sentence until it sticks.
Finally, if anyone ever wants to meet a whole bunch of people who have not gotten "right click" in ten years of Windows use, I'd be happy to introduce you.
A
You must know a whole bunch of...I want to watch my word selection here...totaly computer illiterate people...
The consept is great, If I had to live with a one button mouse, I would seriously consider getting out of the computer field, A two button setup really just makes sence, or as Apple is so fond of saying, it just works, holding down a key whilst clicking seems good, till you use the right mouse button for ten years, and reallise that it is soooo much more natural, plus the scroll wheel, man, I dont think I have used those little scroll arrows for like 3 years (eccept when testing the occasional VB app) I am just glad that Apple plays nice with 2-button mice, and I would love to see a two button powerbook track pad, maybe that could set the powerbook and the iBook apart...
It would have been nice if Apple made it a no cost option when she bought her $1500 computer instead of having to put it in the trash and buy at additional cost a two button mouse.
You can get options when you buy from Apple. They should have options for people with disabilites rather than trying to carry on a tradition of the one button mouse.
Apple includes a goodly number of technologies in the OS to support the disabled, but extending that to specialized hardware isn't good business sense - the cost is high, the benefit low, and it only is something that's going to be used by a tiny fraction of the market. Of course, a two-button mouse isn't exactly specialized hardware, and there's a case to be made to have it be a build to order option, but I still think that the UI consistency issues will continue to overwhelm the discussion at Apple.
You must know a whole bunch of...I want to watch my word selection here...totaly computer illiterate people...
The consept is great, If I had to live with a one button mouse, I would seriously consider getting out of the computer field, A two button setup really just makes sence, or as Apple is so fond of saying, it just works, holding down a key whilst clicking seems good, till you use the right mouse button for ten years, and reallise that it is soooo much more natural, plus the scroll wheel, man, I dont think I have used those little scroll arrows for like 3 years (eccept when testing the occasional VB app) I am just glad that Apple plays nice with 2-button mice, and I would love to see a two button powerbook track pad, maybe that could set the powerbook and the iBook apart...
My friends are pretty much computer enthusiasts, every one of them, but my parents and most of the people *they* know would never right click. I'm not sure if they use the scroll wheel.
One button mouse wouldn't kill me, certainly not get me to leave computers (haha...). Games mostly need the second button. The scroll wheel would be the bigger loss in productive use.
If I had to go entirely without mouse and manage with keyboard only, OS X would be intolerable. (Why they have left keyboard support so awful, I dunno.) I'd revert to Windows which I can actually use without mouse.
In a laptop trackpad I find the difference between 1 and 2 buttons matters less because ctrl is closer.. by the way, is there a way to do a 3rd button click on the trackpad for those X11 software running people?
Apple must realize that not all users have two arm. I have a client that lost one arm as a child and there is no way she can hold ctrl and use a mouse.....
What must she do with ctrl+clicking (in the Finder) that can't be done by using a menu (or other means)?
I've never understood the arguments about one button mice vs two (or more) button mice or trackballs.
It's not that I don't understand the difference, because I use an MS Optical Trackball with four buttons and a clickable scroll wheel, and a Logitech trackball with two buttons and a clickable scrollwheel.
Rather, I don't understand why people who prefer a two button mouse don't just go and spend the $15 and get one instead of making such a big deal about it. People actually waste time arguing about this instead of doing something useful-like getting one.
If $15 stops someone from getting a Mac, then that's their real problem. It's nonsense.
I had this problem here in the NYC Bd of Ed. I'm a technical consultant (unpaid). I've helped train the trainers. A bunch of them over the years came from the PC world, and were now training on Macs, and complaining loudly about it. Most of their complaints revolved around the "Apple doesn't have a two button mouse!" childishness.
So I would plug a two button mouse in. It's amazing what expressions adults are capable of when they don't know that they are being watched.
You can get options when you buy from Apple. They should have options for people with disabilites rather than trying to carry on a tradition of the one button mouse.
I'm disabled and I can't use a 2 button mouse. I own and love Macs because I can use everything with 1 button. Apple gives me options and choices, and they start those options at 1 button.
I've no objection to multi-button mice, and even agree the Pro line should have a BTO option, but the lowest common denominator needs to stay 1.
I've no objection to multi-button mice, and even agree the Pro line should have a BTO option, but the lowest common denominator needs to stay 1.
Fully agree here. May be one of the reasons Apple is shipping only one-button mice is to force developers to use it as the lowest common denominator.
As far as I know mac OS X automatically interprets right-click as control-click but I am not sure it works in the other direction: if the programmer assigns an action for the right-click will it automatically work for control-click?
Fully agree here. May be one of the reasons Apple is shipping only one-button mice is to force developers to use it as the lowest common denominator.
As far as I know mac OS X automatically interprets right-click as control-click but I am not sure it works in the other direction: if the programmer assigns an action for the right-click will it automatically work for control-click?
I'm a developer too. Yes, providing you code nicely using Apples APIs, it all works both ways.
Fully agree here. May be one of the reasons Apple is shipping only one-button mice is to force developers to use it as the lowest common denominator.
As far as I know mac OS X automatically interprets right-click as control-click but I am not sure it works in the other direction: if the programmer assigns an action for the right-click will it automatically work for control-click?
Here again how does one control + click if you have only one arm.
Use ones nose. That would really be pecking on a keyboard...............
Here again how does one control + click if you have only one arm.
One arm, choose a 2 button mouse, or simply don't do it. I've never found a place you have to.
But one arm isn't a good example as it doesn't effect mouse use. There are many many disabilities (MS, CP, MD, MND, SMA - I have SMA) that make mouse use hard generally.
My own solution is a Kensington trackball and Discover Switch from Don Johnson, plus Mouseki for typing. Every other disabled person will have their own preferred solution.
Apple can't provide the right solution for everybody, but the 1 button base and nice APIs make finding one easy.
...the flipside is how does one right click in Windows if they only have one finger?
There isn't an equivalent CTRL-click that I can see...
Exactly!
I physically can't use Windows for exactly this reason. The OS itself isn't too bad as there are other ways but 3rd party apps are a lottery as far as usability goes. I don't think MS enforce a style like Apple.
Mac OS X is easier too. It doesn't ask you "Are you sure?", "Click Next to continue...", "Agree?" for everything. Don't even start me in Windows tabbed Control Panels!
A thing that between the creation of this thread and now is that Apple announce their switch to INTEL processor.
I really think that this will accelerate the move toward a 2 buttons Apple mouse (and a more standard international keyboard layout).
This two little details are a common ennoyment for switchers. Those users will want to boot on Windows from time to time and will need a 2 button mouse.
Yes a third party mouse will work fine (I use one myself) but it will not be with the "Apple touch". There is no consistance with the other peripherals.
I sure Apple will come with a two button mouse before, during or after the INTEL transition. Now it make even more sense than before.
I'm also sure that more and more Apple peripheral will be billed with the "Mac + PC" notation (screen, keyboard, mouse, iPod (already), iSight (no notation but it works on a PC), AirPort Express (already)).
I've never understood the arguments about one button mice vs two (or more) button mice or trackballs.
It's not that I don't understand the difference, because I use an MS Optical Trackball with four buttons and a clickable scroll wheel, and a Logitech trackball with two buttons and a clickable scrollwheel.
Rather, I don't understand why people who prefer a two button mouse don't just go and spend the $15 and get one instead of making such a big deal about it. People actually waste time arguing about this instead of doing something useful-like getting one.
If $15 stops someone from getting a Mac, then that's their real problem. It's nonsense.
I had this problem here in the NYC Bd of Ed. I'm a technical consultant (unpaid). I've helped train the trainers. A bunch of them over the years came from the PC world, and were now training on Macs, and complaining loudly about it. Most of their complaints revolved around the "Apple doesn't have a two button mouse!" childishness.
So I would plug a two button mouse in. It's amazing what expressions adults are capable of when they don't know that they are being watched.
I think part of the appeal of a Mac is that beautful design. What a bummer to not have the option of a matching apple 2-button mouse. How much more R&D does apple need to do to make a Mac-matching 2 button mouse + scroll wheel?
I think part of the appeal of a Mac is that beautful design. What a bummer to not have the option of a matching apple 2-button mouse. How much more R&D does apple need to do to make a Mac-matching 2 button mouse + scroll wheel?
So, you won't buy a Mac because there isn't an integrated ,looking two button mouse from Apple?
Other companies have been making multi buttom mice that are at least as nice and integrated as Apple's are. Just look!
There is no reason why Apple has to do that. They are not selling the Mac as a Windows machine.
I'll say it again, if you want a two button mouse go out and spend the $15 to get one.
Why do we have to waste time on something like this? This has got to be one of the LEAST important subjects to have ever come up here.
Yes, there is a reason. All arguments aside, it boils down to this: Apple wants market share, and that market share could only be achieved by luring Windows/Linux users. What are Linux/Windows users accustomed to? Why two button mice! (or more..)
The point is; if you want more switchers, don't force them to adjust to you. You have to adjust to them. It doesn't really matter wether it's ergonomic or not; the market has decided, they want 2 or more buttons in mice, and that's all there is too it.
It's not a big deal if they don't offer one, but if they do, they'd be listening to their customers. And that's how success is achieved.
Yes, there is a reason. All arguments aside, it boils down to this: Apple wants market share, and that market share could only be achieved by luring Windows/Linux users. What are Linux/Windows users accustomed to? Why two button mice! (or more..)
The point is; if you want more switchers, don't force them to adjust to you. You have to adjust to them. It doesn't really matter wether it's ergonomic or not; the market has decided, they want 2 or more buttons in mice, and that's all there is too it.
It's not a big deal if they don't offer one, but if they do, they'd be listening to their customers. And that's how success is achieved.
Linux users, certainly, are sophisticated enough to know what the score is, and they just have to plug their mouse in. That's not a good reason.
As far as Windows switchers go, they might express surprise when they see a Mac in a store, with something like; "A Mac uses a one button mouse?" To which the answer would be; " Well, if you really prefer the two button one, you can get this for $15." The response to that, as has been told to me by several switchers is; "Ok, I'll try Apple's and if I don't like I'll come back and get that."
Comments
Originally posted by RainbowGuy
... Let me give you a quick example of why I was dismayed to find out about one-button mice. My option boxes can be set positively or negatively. To set positively, left-click. Negatively, right-click. Left-click to clear. Very quick, very user-friendly. ...
Not user-friendly at all. This usage is completely nonstandard in any environment, even Windows. Listen, RainbowGuy: GUIs are defined by consistency. The user should know what to expect, and the programmer should program in a way that meets the user's expectation. I know you think you're being clever, but forget it. When it comes to user interfaces, cleverness is bad, consistency is all-important. Reread that last sentence until it sticks.
Originally posted by Amorph
Finally, if anyone ever wants to meet a whole bunch of people who have not gotten "right click" in ten years of Windows use, I'd be happy to introduce you.
A
You must know a whole bunch of...I want to watch my word selection here...totaly computer illiterate people...
The consept is great, If I had to live with a one button mouse, I would seriously consider getting out of the computer field, A two button setup really just makes sence, or as Apple is so fond of saying, it just works, holding down a key whilst clicking seems good, till you use the right mouse button for ten years, and reallise that it is soooo much more natural, plus the scroll wheel, man, I dont think I have used those little scroll arrows for like 3 years (eccept when testing the occasional VB app) I am just glad that Apple plays nice with 2-button mice, and I would love to see a two button powerbook track pad, maybe that could set the powerbook and the iBook apart...
Originally posted by camrahn
It would have been nice if Apple made it a no cost option when she bought her $1500 computer instead of having to put it in the trash and buy at additional cost a two button mouse.
You can get options when you buy from Apple. They should have options for people with disabilites rather than trying to carry on a tradition of the one button mouse.
Apple includes a goodly number of technologies in the OS to support the disabled, but extending that to specialized hardware isn't good business sense - the cost is high, the benefit low, and it only is something that's going to be used by a tiny fraction of the market. Of course, a two-button mouse isn't exactly specialized hardware, and there's a case to be made to have it be a build to order option, but I still think that the UI consistency issues will continue to overwhelm the discussion at Apple.
Originally posted by a_greer
You must know a whole bunch of...I want to watch my word selection here...totaly computer illiterate people...
Yes, they're called 'average users'. Seriously.
Originally posted by a_greer
You must know a whole bunch of...I want to watch my word selection here...totaly computer illiterate people...
The consept is great, If I had to live with a one button mouse, I would seriously consider getting out of the computer field, A two button setup really just makes sence, or as Apple is so fond of saying, it just works, holding down a key whilst clicking seems good, till you use the right mouse button for ten years, and reallise that it is soooo much more natural, plus the scroll wheel, man, I dont think I have used those little scroll arrows for like 3 years (eccept when testing the occasional VB app) I am just glad that Apple plays nice with 2-button mice, and I would love to see a two button powerbook track pad, maybe that could set the powerbook and the iBook apart...
My friends are pretty much computer enthusiasts, every one of them, but my parents and most of the people *they* know would never right click. I'm not sure if they use the scroll wheel.
One button mouse wouldn't kill me, certainly not get me to leave computers (haha...). Games mostly need the second button. The scroll wheel would be the bigger loss in productive use.
If I had to go entirely without mouse and manage with keyboard only, OS X would be intolerable. (Why they have left keyboard support so awful, I dunno.) I'd revert to Windows which I can actually use without mouse.
In a laptop trackpad I find the difference between 1 and 2 buttons matters less because ctrl is closer.. by the way, is there a way to do a 3rd button click on the trackpad for those X11 software running people?
Originally posted by camrahn
Apple must realize that not all users have two arm. I have a client that lost one arm as a child and there is no way she can hold ctrl and use a mouse.....
What must she do with ctrl+clicking (in the Finder) that can't be done by using a menu (or other means)?
It's not that I don't understand the difference, because I use an MS Optical Trackball with four buttons and a clickable scroll wheel, and a Logitech trackball with two buttons and a clickable scrollwheel.
Rather, I don't understand why people who prefer a two button mouse don't just go and spend the $15 and get one instead of making such a big deal about it. People actually waste time arguing about this instead of doing something useful-like getting one.
If $15 stops someone from getting a Mac, then that's their real problem. It's nonsense.
I had this problem here in the NYC Bd of Ed. I'm a technical consultant (unpaid
So I would plug a two button mouse in. It's amazing what expressions adults are capable of when they don't know that they are being watched.
Originally posted by camrahn
You can get options when you buy from Apple. They should have options for people with disabilites rather than trying to carry on a tradition of the one button mouse.
I'm disabled and I can't use a 2 button mouse. I own and love Macs because I can use everything with 1 button. Apple gives me options and choices, and they start those options at 1 button.
I've no objection to multi-button mice, and even agree the Pro line should have a BTO option, but the lowest common denominator needs to stay 1.
Originally posted by Blackcat
I've no objection to multi-button mice, and even agree the Pro line should have a BTO option, but the lowest common denominator needs to stay 1.
Fully agree here. May be one of the reasons Apple is shipping only one-button mice is to force developers to use it as the lowest common denominator.
As far as I know mac OS X automatically interprets right-click as control-click but I am not sure it works in the other direction: if the programmer assigns an action for the right-click will it automatically work for control-click?
Originally posted by shadow
Fully agree here. May be one of the reasons Apple is shipping only one-button mice is to force developers to use it as the lowest common denominator.
As far as I know mac OS X automatically interprets right-click as control-click but I am not sure it works in the other direction: if the programmer assigns an action for the right-click will it automatically work for control-click?
I'm a developer too. Yes, providing you code nicely using Apples APIs, it all works both ways.
Originally posted by shadow
Fully agree here. May be one of the reasons Apple is shipping only one-button mice is to force developers to use it as the lowest common denominator.
As far as I know mac OS X automatically interprets right-click as control-click but I am not sure it works in the other direction: if the programmer assigns an action for the right-click will it automatically work for control-click?
Here again how does one control + click if you have only one arm.
Use ones nose. That would really be pecking on a keyboard...............
Originally posted by camrahn
Here again how does one control + click if you have only one arm.
One arm, choose a 2 button mouse, or simply don't do it. I've never found a place you have to.
But one arm isn't a good example as it doesn't effect mouse use. There are many many disabilities (MS, CP, MD, MND, SMA - I have SMA) that make mouse use hard generally.
My own solution is a Kensington trackball and Discover Switch from Don Johnson, plus Mouseki for typing. Every other disabled person will have their own preferred solution.
Apple can't provide the right solution for everybody, but the 1 button base and nice APIs make finding one easy.
There isn't an equivalent CTRL-click that I can see...
I've been around enough people that are just terrified of computers, and the single button makes their life much less terrifying.
As many have already said, any two-button mouse made in the last five years works without issue in Mac OS X allowing for choices that work.
Why does everyone get so bent out of shape over this? It's not like there isn't right-click functionality?
Originally posted by Laughingboy
...the flipside is how does one right click in Windows if they only have one finger?
There isn't an equivalent CTRL-click that I can see...
Exactly!
I physically can't use Windows for exactly this reason. The OS itself isn't too bad as there are other ways but 3rd party apps are a lottery as far as usability goes. I don't think MS enforce a style like Apple.
Mac OS X is easier too. It doesn't ask you "Are you sure?", "Click Next to continue...", "Agree?" for everything. Don't even start me in Windows tabbed Control Panels!
I really think that this will accelerate the move toward a 2 buttons Apple mouse (and a more standard international keyboard layout).
This two little details are a common ennoyment for switchers. Those users will want to boot on Windows from time to time and will need a 2 button mouse.
Yes a third party mouse will work fine (I use one myself) but it will not be with the "Apple touch". There is no consistance with the other peripherals.
I sure Apple will come with a two button mouse before, during or after the INTEL transition. Now it make even more sense than before.
I'm also sure that more and more Apple peripheral will be billed with the "Mac + PC" notation (screen, keyboard, mouse, iPod (already), iSight (no notation but it works on a PC), AirPort Express (already)).
Originally posted by melgross
I've never understood the arguments about one button mice vs two (or more) button mice or trackballs.
It's not that I don't understand the difference, because I use an MS Optical Trackball with four buttons and a clickable scroll wheel, and a Logitech trackball with two buttons and a clickable scrollwheel.
Rather, I don't understand why people who prefer a two button mouse don't just go and spend the $15 and get one instead of making such a big deal about it. People actually waste time arguing about this instead of doing something useful-like getting one.
If $15 stops someone from getting a Mac, then that's their real problem. It's nonsense.
I had this problem here in the NYC Bd of Ed. I'm a technical consultant (unpaid
So I would plug a two button mouse in. It's amazing what expressions adults are capable of when they don't know that they are being watched.
I think part of the appeal of a Mac is that beautful design. What a bummer to not have the option of a matching apple 2-button mouse. How much more R&D does apple need to do to make a Mac-matching 2 button mouse + scroll wheel?
I'll say it again, if you want a two button mouse go out and spend the $15 to get one.
Why do we have to waste time on something like this? This has got to be one of the LEAST important subjects to have ever come up here.
Originally posted by Kishan
I think part of the appeal of a Mac is that beautful design. What a bummer to not have the option of a matching apple 2-button mouse. How much more R&D does apple need to do to make a Mac-matching 2 button mouse + scroll wheel?
So, you won't buy a Mac because there isn't an integrated ,looking two button mouse from Apple?
Other companies have been making multi buttom mice that are at least as nice and integrated as Apple's are. Just look!
Originally posted by melgross
There is no reason why Apple has to do that. They are not selling the Mac as a Windows machine.
I'll say it again, if you want a two button mouse go out and spend the $15 to get one.
Why do we have to waste time on something like this? This has got to be one of the LEAST important subjects to have ever come up here.
Yes, there is a reason. All arguments aside, it boils down to this: Apple wants market share, and that market share could only be achieved by luring Windows/Linux users. What are Linux/Windows users accustomed to? Why two button mice! (or more..)
The point is; if you want more switchers, don't force them to adjust to you. You have to adjust to them. It doesn't really matter wether it's ergonomic or not; the market has decided, they want 2 or more buttons in mice, and that's all there is too it.
It's not a big deal if they don't offer one, but if they do, they'd be listening to their customers. And that's how success is achieved.
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Yes, there is a reason. All arguments aside, it boils down to this: Apple wants market share, and that market share could only be achieved by luring Windows/Linux users. What are Linux/Windows users accustomed to? Why two button mice! (or more..)
The point is; if you want more switchers, don't force them to adjust to you. You have to adjust to them. It doesn't really matter wether it's ergonomic or not; the market has decided, they want 2 or more buttons in mice, and that's all there is too it.
It's not a big deal if they don't offer one, but if they do, they'd be listening to their customers. And that's how success is achieved.
Linux users, certainly, are sophisticated enough to know what the score is, and they just have to plug their mouse in. That's not a good reason.
As far as Windows switchers go, they might express surprise when they see a Mac in a store, with something like; "A Mac uses a one button mouse?" To which the answer would be; " Well, if you really prefer the two button one, you can get this for $15." The response to that, as has been told to me by several switchers is; "Ok, I'll try Apple's and if I don't like I'll come back and get that."
Yup, that's a tough one all right.