There's no doubt that Lucas didn't bother with any of the more esoteric details in the original trilogy, they were too busy having fun and blowing things up.
But in keeping with Joseph Campbell's influences (he was a deep admirer of Buddhism in particular) it's not likely that he "just made this up one afternoon" during writing (if I can call it that) Phantom Menace. I'm sure he had a sketch of how he wanted a contemplative kind of Buddhism-lite for the Jedi, mixed with a tangible acknowledgment of the physical properties that do indeed make up life.
The world has gotten smarter about DNA/quantum physics etc. since the original trilogy, and adding this reference is only a nod to how the Force isn't merely abstract hocus pocus, but it has physical manifestations/implications, in the same way that Buddhism (for example) doesn't deny the physical (it's not mere nihilism) so much as it teaches you to reach beyond preconceptions to get closer to the true nature of things as they are, through first hand experience and investigation.
Lucas is eternally indebted to Tolkein, Campbell, Kurosawa (Peace Be Upon Them). Lucas did his homework on the myth stuff, I can't believe he just plopped the midi-chlorian thing in nilly-willy. It does strike a blow against this being a pure fantasy and makes it more science fiction-ish. But really there should be a balance between the physical and metaphysical. Otherwise it's just pure Fantasy with a capital EFF and we wouldn't need the spaceships.
eh... my exposure to hinduism/buddhism must be off on a different (wrong?) tangent... because i've only been exposed to the more metaphysical aspects of those, not much physical tie in.
i thought also it's weird that there are this midicholrians that actually "control" us in some way, risking idolising the midicholrians as god or something??
\ i have a cold now *sniffle* so brain not in gear, ignore the above if you like
fucking hell (there nebagakid you happy ??!!?) that is so wrong. it doesn't make sense. the 'sprits' at the end of the ROTJ are yoda, OLD obiwan and obviously it follows OLD Anakin, not HC Anakin ???? what an utterly pointless waste of special effects money ~ what a bloody cheap Lucas trick to link the old movies with the new ones by cutting and pasting young Anakin in there....
*sigh*
if my dad's old Laserdisc player still worked.... and if i had the star wars ep. 4,5,6, laserdiscs, untouched by Lucas' digital molestations...
sorry I'm confused - where do you see old hologram Anakin?
would this be in return of the jedi? after vadar dies, he returns to the good side?
Sorta. More like, the 'good in him' was awakened when he sees luke about to kill him, and he recognizes that luke is on the verge of turning to the dark side, and he sees luke refuse. Then he kills palpatine to redeem himself. More or less, it can be made more convoluted or less convoluted if you want. heh.
Right, in Jedi, Anakin kills the Emperor and brings balance to the force. Luke was a helpful distraction, to tempt the Emperor to think Luke would make a good replacement for Vader as the Emperor's new apprentice. (Remember, this was Vader offering that in Empire). This let Vader get Luke as close to the Emperor as possible. Vader knew Luke was good and powerful and would not kill his own father. This let Vader kill the Emperor himself when he was weakened/distracted.
The prophecy was right, it just took a while to happen.
It was my theory for years that Vader was actually good throughout the old trilogy. He killed plenty of fellow Imperials, and only a few odd rebels in the heat of battle (had to maintain a credible image for the Emperor).
Right, in Jedi, Anakin kills the Emperor and brings balance to the force. Luke was a helpful distraction, to tempt the Emperor to think Luke would make a good replacement for Vader as the Emperor's new apprentice. (Remember, this was Vader offering that in Empire). This let Vader get Luke as close to the Emperor as possible. Vader knew Luke was good and powerful and would not kill his own father. This let Vader kill the Emperor himself when he was weakened/distracted.
The prophecy was right, it just took a while to happen.
It was my theory for years that Vader was actually good throughout the old trilogy. He killed plenty of fellow Imperials, and only a few odd rebels in the heat of battle (had to maintain a credible image for the Emperor).
I'm going to have to diagree with that. Blowing up an entire planet (Alderan) is a bit more than maintaining a credible image.
Overall I thought the movie was very well done. The dialogue was a bit "meh", it never seemed to flow. It was as if everyone had their own thoughts, and just would say what they wanted, never replying to the previous comment. But the aciton scenes were spectacular. Artoo kicked much robotic ass. Also, I beleive it is in RoTJ, Leia speaks of her mother looked beautiful but sad. I always thought she spoke of Padme, but she was obviously speaking of her adopted parents. But I think old Georgie boy did a pretty good job with this one.
But one more thing. The whole Qui Gon Jin thing. If he learned how to become one with the force and communicate after death, howcome his body didn't dissolve upon his death?
well if 1 and 2 were so crappy what do you all suggest should be changed in them? I think they are pretty good and they all lead up to episode 3 nicely. they are essentially the beginning of the whole thing and have to get some explaining out of the way so you can get the whole idea.
You see his face when Luke takes his helmet off after killing the Emperor.
And not only do you see his face, George Lucas REMOVED HIS EYEBROWS on the DVD's! Where does it end. He had Vader's eyebrows removed because he was burned badly in EP3.
And not only do you see his face, George Lucas REMOVED HIS EYEBROWS on the DVD's! Where does it end. He had Vader's eyebrows removed because he was burned badly in EP3.
oh man... over the next 10 years the nerds are all going to have a field day keeping track of what details were changed where...
Right, in Jedi, Anakin kills the Emperor and brings balance to the force. Luke was a helpful distraction, to tempt the Emperor to think Luke would make a good replacement for Vader as the Emperor's new apprentice. (Remember, this was Vader offering that in Empire). This let Vader get Luke as close to the Emperor as possible. Vader knew Luke was good and powerful and would not kill his own father. This let Vader kill the Emperor himself when he was weakened/distracted.
The prophecy was right, it just took a while to happen.
It was my theory for years that Vader was actually good throughout the old trilogy. He killed plenty of fellow Imperials, and only a few odd rebels in the heat of battle (had to maintain a credible image for the Emperor).
i agree with you that now i realise how the prophecy was fulfilled. as the old republic crumbled, the dark side grew very very strong with palpatine... his 20+ year manipulations (not counting his apprenticeship to the dark side and killing of his master) made the force imbalanced.
edit: only Yoda and ObiWan really sensed this, so well and good that they were the only Jedi that 'survived' in the time of the Empire. the rest of the Jedi were clueless and deserved what they got
edit: well it was a long time of dark side imbalance, with him dismantling the old republic over 20+years, the 20+ year rule of the Empire, etc..
yup, it took a while, anakin had to go over to the dark side, then eventually kill the emperor in return of the jedi, and balance is restored to the force. prophecy fulfilled, just that obiwan and yoda gave up on the prophecy a little early (just like morpheus in the matrix, but keanu.. er i mean Neo eventually delivered the goods)
i think Vader did not do this in a very conscious way, eg. blowing up a whole planet... the thing is though that he had to journey through the darkness to see the light and restore balance (this parallels with non-dualism concepts of spirituality in our galaxy... or i mean solar system )
Vader had to journey through the very depths of the dark side to understand it and return the balance
pre-Vader, anakin was confused about what was right and wrong, and only through Vader did he gain confidence and clarity, albeit in one brief second
admittedly in the time of the Empire there might have been flickers of regret/ guilt about being so evil and stuff in Vader.
And not only do you see his face, George Lucas REMOVED HIS EYEBROWS on the DVD's! Where does it end. He had Vader's eyebrows removed because he was burned badly in EP3.
umm.. hello Lucas? if there is so much technology to restore someone badly burnt by LAVA, with their ARM AND LEGS CHOPPED OFF, with one cybernetic arm left,
shurely cosmetic surgery techniques in the star wars universe can handle eyebrows?? we know that Vader does ocassionally take his helmet off in his special chamber (ep 4, 5 or 6...) perhaps one time he decided, hey, i want some eyebrows
.....And by the way, Midi-chlorians is not a cop-out. It only adds realism to the otherwise mystical/magical-only Force. In real life, "mitochondria" and "chloroplast" fulfill the same role essentially. .....
omigod and to think i actually have a honours degree in molecular biology
i just got it... Midi-chlorian is a combination of both the words "mitochondria" and "chloroplast". mitochondria being oxygen-consuming endosymbionts (in this galaxy) and chloroplasts being oxygen-releasing endosymbionts (also in this galaxy... well on earth anyway)...
hence a midichlorian as a unit of the force can handle both the
"dark side"
(energy consuming mitochondrions as we understand it now)
"light side"
(energy-producing chloroplasts which harvest energy from the sun)
or vice versa, depending on your interpretation
i have a bit more respect now for the whole midichlorian concept now that i more fully grasp (thanks to you johnq..! ) the duality of the midichlorian and it's modern-day-biology references
Comments
Originally posted by johnq
There's no doubt that Lucas didn't bother with any of the more esoteric details in the original trilogy, they were too busy having fun and blowing things up.
But in keeping with Joseph Campbell's influences (he was a deep admirer of Buddhism in particular) it's not likely that he "just made this up one afternoon" during writing (if I can call it that) Phantom Menace. I'm sure he had a sketch of how he wanted a contemplative kind of Buddhism-lite for the Jedi, mixed with a tangible acknowledgment of the physical properties that do indeed make up life.
The world has gotten smarter about DNA/quantum physics etc. since the original trilogy, and adding this reference is only a nod to how the Force isn't merely abstract hocus pocus, but it has physical manifestations/implications, in the same way that Buddhism (for example) doesn't deny the physical (it's not mere nihilism) so much as it teaches you to reach beyond preconceptions to get closer to the true nature of things as they are, through first hand experience and investigation.
Lucas is eternally indebted to Tolkein, Campbell, Kurosawa (Peace Be Upon Them). Lucas did his homework on the myth stuff, I can't believe he just plopped the midi-chlorian thing in nilly-willy. It does strike a blow against this being a pure fantasy and makes it more science fiction-ish. But really there should be a balance between the physical and metaphysical. Otherwise it's just pure Fantasy with a capital EFF and we wouldn't need the spaceships.
eh... my exposure to hinduism/buddhism must be off on a different (wrong?) tangent... because i've only been exposed to the more metaphysical aspects of those, not much physical tie in.
i thought also it's weird that there are this midicholrians that actually "control" us in some way, risking idolising the midicholrians as god or something??
Originally posted by sunilraman
fucking hell (there nebagakid you happy ??!!?) that is so wrong. it doesn't make sense. the 'sprits' at the end of the ROTJ are yoda, OLD obiwan and obviously it follows OLD Anakin, not HC Anakin ???? what an utterly pointless waste of special effects money ~ what a bloody cheap Lucas trick to link the old movies with the new ones by cutting and pasting young Anakin in there....
*sigh*
if my dad's old Laserdisc player still worked.... and if i had the star wars ep. 4,5,6, laserdiscs, untouched by Lucas' digital molestations...
sorry I'm confused - where do you see old hologram Anakin?
Originally posted by MacCrazy
sorry I'm confused - where do you see old hologram Anakin?
At the end of ROTJ in pre EP 1, 2 and 3 days, Luke sees yoda, Obi-Wan, and then the old anakin shows up.
Now, Hayden C. shows up and the old Anakin is no more.
Originally posted by aplnub
At the end of ROTJ in pre EP 1, 2 and 3 days, Luke sees yoda, Obi-Wan, and then the old anakin shows up.
Now, Hayden C. shows up and the old Anakin is no more.
I don't remember that.
Originally posted by MacCrazy
I don't remember that.
Well, then it obviously didn't really happen.
Originally posted by Wrong Robot
Well, then it obviously didn't really happen.
it didn't in my copy! when did this actually happen - after Vader dies?
Originally posted by MacCrazy
it didn't in my copy! when did this actually happen - after Vader dies?
At the Ewok ceremony, after Luke has burned Vader alone and returns to the party, he sees Ben, Yoda and old Anakin's spirits.
Perhaps the fullscreen version doesn't show all of the picture? </guessing>
Originally posted by ragingloogie
would this be in return of the jedi? after vadar dies, he returns to the good side?
Sorta. More like, the 'good in him' was awakened when he sees luke about to kill him, and he recognizes that luke is on the verge of turning to the dark side, and he sees luke refuse. Then he kills palpatine to redeem himself. More or less, it can be made more convoluted or less convoluted if you want. heh.
The prophecy was right, it just took a while to happen.
It was my theory for years that Vader was actually good throughout the old trilogy. He killed plenty of fellow Imperials, and only a few odd rebels in the heat of battle (had to maintain a credible image for the Emperor).
Originally posted by johnq
Right, in Jedi, Anakin kills the Emperor and brings balance to the force. Luke was a helpful distraction, to tempt the Emperor to think Luke would make a good replacement for Vader as the Emperor's new apprentice. (Remember, this was Vader offering that in Empire). This let Vader get Luke as close to the Emperor as possible. Vader knew Luke was good and powerful and would not kill his own father. This let Vader kill the Emperor himself when he was weakened/distracted.
The prophecy was right, it just took a while to happen.
It was my theory for years that Vader was actually good throughout the old trilogy. He killed plenty of fellow Imperials, and only a few odd rebels in the heat of battle (had to maintain a credible image for the Emperor).
I'm going to have to diagree with that. Blowing up an entire planet (Alderan) is a bit more than maintaining a credible image.
Overall I thought the movie was very well done. The dialogue was a bit "meh", it never seemed to flow. It was as if everyone had their own thoughts, and just would say what they wanted, never replying to the previous comment. But the aciton scenes were spectacular. Artoo kicked much robotic ass. Also, I beleive it is in RoTJ, Leia speaks of her mother looked beautiful but sad. I always thought she spoke of Padme, but she was obviously speaking of her adopted parents. But I think old Georgie boy did a pretty good job with this one.
But one more thing. The whole Qui Gon Jin thing. If he learned how to become one with the force and communicate after death, howcome his body didn't dissolve upon his death?
Originally posted by johnq
At the Ewok ceremony, after Luke has burned Vader alone and returns to the party, he sees Ben, Yoda and old Anakin's spirits.
Perhaps the fullscreen version doesn't show all of the picture? </guessing>
OK - how was one supposed to know that was Vader - we never see his face! I think it's good to change it to HC
Originally posted by MacCrazy
OK - how was one supposed to know that was Vader - we never see his face! I think it's good to change it to HC
You see his face when Luke takes his helmet off after killing the Emperor.
Originally posted by rageous
You see his face when Luke takes his helmet off after killing the Emperor.
I think it's subtle so the SW geeks can be proud because it's pretty messed up!
Originally posted by rageous
You see his face when Luke takes his helmet off after killing the Emperor.
And not only do you see his face, George Lucas REMOVED HIS EYEBROWS on the DVD's! Where does it end.
Originally posted by aplnub
And not only do you see his face, George Lucas REMOVED HIS EYEBROWS on the DVD's! Where does it end.
oh man... over the next 10 years the nerds are all going to have a field day keeping track of what details were changed where...
.......
Originally posted by johnq
Right, in Jedi, Anakin kills the Emperor and brings balance to the force. Luke was a helpful distraction, to tempt the Emperor to think Luke would make a good replacement for Vader as the Emperor's new apprentice. (Remember, this was Vader offering that in Empire). This let Vader get Luke as close to the Emperor as possible. Vader knew Luke was good and powerful and would not kill his own father. This let Vader kill the Emperor himself when he was weakened/distracted.
The prophecy was right, it just took a while to happen.
It was my theory for years that Vader was actually good throughout the old trilogy. He killed plenty of fellow Imperials, and only a few odd rebels in the heat of battle (had to maintain a credible image for the Emperor).
i agree with you that now i realise how the prophecy was fulfilled. as the old republic crumbled, the dark side grew very very strong with palpatine... his 20+ year manipulations (not counting his apprenticeship to the dark side and killing of his master) made the force imbalanced.
edit: only Yoda and ObiWan really sensed this, so well and good that they were the only Jedi that 'survived' in the time of the Empire. the rest of the Jedi were clueless and deserved what they got
edit: well it was a long time of dark side imbalance, with him dismantling the old republic over 20+years, the 20+ year rule of the Empire, etc..
yup, it took a while, anakin had to go over to the dark side, then eventually kill the emperor in return of the jedi, and balance is restored to the force. prophecy fulfilled, just that obiwan and yoda gave up on the prophecy a little early (just like morpheus in the matrix, but keanu.. er i mean Neo eventually delivered the goods)
i think Vader did not do this in a very conscious way, eg. blowing up a whole planet... the thing is though that he had to journey through the darkness to see the light and restore balance (this parallels with non-dualism concepts of spirituality in our galaxy... or i mean solar system
Vader had to journey through the very depths of the dark side to understand it and return the balance
pre-Vader, anakin was confused about what was right and wrong, and only through Vader did he gain confidence and clarity, albeit in one brief second
admittedly in the time of the Empire there might have been flickers of regret/ guilt about being so evil and stuff in Vader.
Originally posted by aplnub
And not only do you see his face, George Lucas REMOVED HIS EYEBROWS on the DVD's! Where does it end.
umm.. hello Lucas? if there is so much technology to restore someone badly burnt by LAVA, with their ARM AND LEGS CHOPPED OFF, with one cybernetic arm left,
shurely cosmetic surgery techniques in the star wars universe can handle eyebrows?? we know that Vader does ocassionally take his helmet off in his special chamber (ep 4, 5 or 6...)
Originally posted by johnq
.....And by the way, Midi-chlorians is not a cop-out. It only adds realism to the otherwise mystical/magical-only Force. In real life, "mitochondria" and "chloroplast" fulfill the same role essentially. .....
omigod and to think i actually have a honours degree in molecular biology
i just got it... Midi-chlorian is a combination of both the words "mitochondria" and "chloroplast". mitochondria being oxygen-consuming endosymbionts (in this galaxy) and chloroplasts being oxygen-releasing endosymbionts (also in this galaxy... well on earth anyway)...
hence a midichlorian as a unit of the force can handle both the
"dark side"
(energy consuming mitochondrions as we understand it now)
"light side"
(energy-producing chloroplasts which harvest energy from the sun)
or vice versa, depending on your interpretation
i have a bit more respect now for the whole midichlorian concept now that i more fully grasp (thanks to you johnq..!