I don't think marketing will decide what chip goes in the powerbook. Whether it's a dual g4 or a g5 will be decided by what is available, has the best performance and best power useage, etc.
Marketing comes after the fact. If you think about it what is the difference (for the average person) between a g4 and a g5? One is a little bigger than the other? You have internalized previous marketing to make the difference a vast and improtant one. All we (normal people) want is faster cheaper better.
... From Think Secret in November and December last year: also explicitly refers to a third low-power chip that will top out at 2GHz for laptop use. ...
Pip pip!
What ho, Sir Henry, cast your mind back to 2003. Recall all the juicy stuff we had on the 970 then? Pretty much exhaustive technical information? Specs on blade products, and so on? The photos with feathers? If the low-power 970 were real, and going into machines this year, we'd know a lot more about it than we do at this point.
The Cell is the bee's knees, but it would seem a bit ambitious to expect Apple to bung it into their Books at this early juncture. In sum, then, Sir, my expectation is 7448s for the notebooks across the board for the nonce. Apple will have words to say about Cell at WWDC, but likely in connection with PowerMacs. The G5 moniker will surely stay, I should think.
You guys keep forgetting that Apple revealed PowerBook G5s in that plist file in 10.3.5. Remember PowerBook 7,1 and PowerBook 7,2?
Maybe it was added so we wouldn't know when a PowerBook G5 really came out!
As for a WWDC launch of PowerBooks - not likely. I think Paris will see PowerBook updates and depending on the plan iBooks before or after - they do need an upgrade though. If I'm honest I think Apple will update both PowerBooks and iBooks before MWSF. Then give them a bigger update then.
Just because the GUI doesn't run 64-bit doesn't mean that it doesn't control a 64-bit program. There is nothing that requires "64-bit" as far as the GUI - the G5 runs seamlessly 64-bit and 32-bit programs, whereas the wintel universe does not. That's why the wintel gui has to be 64-bit also.
Lets see you create a 64bit gui program? Lets see you create a program in cocoa or carbon library... using objective-c, objective-c++, c, java... whatever your choices... and use 64bit encoding. Lets see you access more than 4gb memory with this gui app. IT CANT BE DONE. THERE AREN'T ANY 64BIT GUI LIBRARIES FOR OS X!
You can't make the argument that they run side by side because they don't. They don't even exist. They can't exist. OS X doesn't allow them to exist. I am a firm believer that they will some day. And that they will run side by side. But currently there is NO 64bit GUI support. I'm not calling the Finder a GUI... i'm calling any program you run with a Graphical User Interface being gui. IE... any cocoa or carbon app. No 64bit support.
But I do (still) have a memory that goes back more than a few days. Here and here. From Think Secret in November and December last year: also explicitly refers to a third low-power chip that will top out at 2GHz for laptop use. The second article could be construed to imply that the MP could find its way into a laptop as well. If TS is right - and they're worth suing, after all - Apple apparently has choices...
Pip pip!
Where in there does it say they were sampled last year? Only thing I could find is this: "However, sources continue to report that IBM is working to develop other low-power 970-series processors topping out around 2GHz that could find their way into future PowerBooks instead."... Nothing about sampling the processor.
Maybe it was added so we wouldn't know when a PowerBook G5 really came out!
As for a WWDC launch of PowerBooks - not likely. I think Paris will see PowerBook updates and depending on the plan iBooks before or after - they do need an upgrade though. If I'm honest I think Apple will update both PowerBooks and iBooks before MWSF. Then give them a bigger update then.
iBooks have to be updated WAY before MWSF... There are a lot of people in the boat of not buying a laptop because the graphics solutions in the iBooks aren't Core compatible, and the graphics card in the 12" powerbook is a little too weak. This stuff does matter to people. The iBooks were last updated in OCT... so they HAVE to be updated before then at the VERY least. Otherwise they would have ran over a year update cycle... I still haven't witnessed that process from apple, though I wouldn't put anything past them when it comes to computer refreshes.
I'd expect WWDC to be the last opportunity for an iBook update. Anything passed that is out of line.
iBooks have to be updated WAY before MWSF... There are a lot of people in the boat of not buying a laptop because the graphics solutions in the iBooks aren't Core compatible, and the graphics card in the 12" powerbook is a little too weak. This stuff does matter to people. The iBooks were last updated in OCT... so they HAVE to be updated before then at the VERY least. Otherwise they would have ran over a year update cycle... I still haven't witnessed that process from apple, though I wouldn't put anything past them when it comes to computer refreshes.
I'd expect WWDC to be the last opportunity for an iBook update. Anything passed that is out of line.
I meant an update to both any time now (iBooks first) and then a major upgrade at MWSF. The iBooks need an upgrade now - although Apple wants the G5 out so it can upgrade the iBooks by more!
I meant an update to both any time now (iBooks first) and then a major upgrade at MWSF. The iBooks need an upgrade now - although Apple wants the G5 out so it can upgrade the iBooks by more!
Yah I'm actually extremely surprised that the iBooks haven't been updated yet. I expected it to be updated in late april.
There are a lot of people in the boat of not buying a laptop because the graphics solutions in the iBooks aren't Core compatible...
I too think iBooks are going to be updated soon.
But I would think most people are NOT UNWILLING to purchase a current iBook because it's NOT CORE compatible. My hunch is that the person who is in the market for an iBook is a lot like me: grossly ignorant about what seems to be clear to more savvy types. They're not even really cognizant of what a video card is. You could stop them at the register in the Apple Store and tell them it's not CORE compatible but they would scratch their heads and say what's a core? Believe me, I'm one step from being such a person. Look at amazon.com: the best selling laptop on there is the 12" iBook. In fact it seems to be selling better than PC desktops, if you can believe it. The rankings are alledgedly updated hourly. In anycase, it's selling like crazy even though it's not 100% Tiger compatible. Why? Marketing presumably, for one. And for two, the ibook consumer doesn't know and/or care that he should be getting more for his money.
That being said, sales will not continue at this pitch indefinitely; Jobs will pre-empt a slump by refreshing the line. Of course Apple, not me, knows better from a business standpoint when to do this. iBooks introduced at WWDC seems ludicrous but not impossible considering the purpose of the venue. I'm no developer (if that isn't obvious already) but if I were, I wouldn't want much more than 10 seconds of my time at WWDC hearing about a new iBook.
I for one, will purchase the first new Apple laptop to come out, be it the iBook or the Powerbook, simply because I feel like for once purchasing at the beginning of a cycle rather at the end, which is when I got my first two Apple computers.
So bring on the G5 PB or the Dual G4 PB or a faster PB or faster iBook, whatever, anything so my investment will not be devalued in two weeks.
Lets see you create a 64bit gui program? ...snip...
But I can't see why you need to do that?
Any project large and complex enough to need 64-bit addressing is likely to be split into a number of components - and a 32-bit GUI can happily be one of those components.
MVC - Model - View - Controller. The GUI itself doesn't need to address anything above 32-bit - it's just a representation and a stimulus of the underlying. The actual 64-bit (such as a large database) application is connected to the GUI via a pipe, and is controlled or returns results through the pipe.
32-bit and 64-bit applications can run side-by-side on G5s - it's a feature.
With MVC, yes you can have a 64bit back end for data... but that doesn't help processing. Programs like Photoshop or Cinema or Maya or Mathmatica... any programs that need hard core processing need the libraries to be included with the cocoa / carbon apis. So it can use 64bit registers and processes them in once clock cycle.
I think you're confused when I say GUI 64bit library. I'm not saying the UI needs the 64bit library separately. I'm saying the carbon or cocoa api needs the 64bit library. Which does not exist. Therefore, NO carbon or cocoa application can use 64bit processing without inline assembly programming. No one is going to jump on that feature. No 64bit cocoa or carbon (GUI apps)applications can exist, this is my point.... Processing is lost in the 64bit world. PPC has the power to run in 32bit and 64bit mode, so OSX can always run both without being tied to one or the other. Its going to be a matter of time before we'll see 64bit cocoa / carbon applications. You can't consider an application with a 64bit data backend a 64bit application. Because no 64bit processing is going on except retrieving data... which is still going to take the 32bit amount of clockcycles to retrieve the data... so no speed is really being gained anyways.
The whole point is apple isn't attacking 64bit harder than anyone (as stated above), so there isn't a HUGE need for a g5 powerbook, since it can't even support 64bit cocoa / carbon applications. Since this isn't supported yet, a g4mp would be much appreciated.
One of the things that holds me back from getting a laptop is the fact that there is only one core. I'd rather have a dual 800 than a 1.67 single. That dual cpu saves your bacon more. Multiprocessing is a great feature since not all cpu processes are optimized and can hog a cpu if they desire, if you're doing something else at the same time that 2nd cpu kicks in and takes care of that for you. After using the 1.67ghz Powerbook, I was very disappointed. I saw the cpu max out way too much during my use of using it.
With traveling this summer, i'm going to have to get a laptop anyways, so I have to live with whats available after WWDC.
With MVC, yes you can have a 64bit back end for data... but that doesn't help processing. Programs like Photoshop or Cinema or Maya or Mathmatica... any programs that need hard core processing need the libraries to be included with the cocoa / carbon apis. So it can use 64bit registers and processes them in once clock cycle.
Ooo, a discussion of software architecture on AI - Who'da thunk it :-)
Anyways, when I'm architecting a 64-bit application, I would absolutely try to use some form of decoupling between the GUI and the 64-bit parts of the code - why bog the GUI down when you don't need to?
The use of low level mechanisms like "pipes" or other distributed mechanisms is a very, very good idea in a 64-bit GUI app, especially on a Mach based O/S where these kinds of mechanisms are supported at the kernel level for extremely high performance - much of Mach communicates via "ports" between threads and processes.
What I don't know is if Tiger supports separation into 32 and 64 bit by process or by thread. The former is easier to do from the OS perspective, but there is a loss of performance when the GUI sends something to the back end - requiring a context switch in the O/S.
As far as Photoshop is concerned, the MVC model is actually a very good one - the filter or whatever you want to apply is dispatched to the 64-bit part of the app, executes and the screen gets updated. Not so good for painting for example, but you're not going to get a big advantage with 64-bit there anyway.
Similarly for video and audio applications - dispatch the request to a 64-bit process with a pointer to where the data lives in virtual memory, and have at it.
What ho, Sir Henry, cast your mind back to 2003. Recall all the juicy stuff we had on the 970 then? Pretty much exhaustive technical information? Specs on blade products, and so on? The photos with feathers? If the low-power 970 were real, and going into machines this year, we'd know a lot more about it than we do at this point.
Indeed, but Apple seems to be a lot more paranoid about leaked info these days, and if Apple is the only customer for a chip then they can (and do) demand complete secrecy. We do know a fair bit about the MP and GX - perhaps they'll find their way into IBM blades...
Quote:
Originally posted by cubist
The Cell is the bee's knees, but it would seem a bit ambitious to expect Apple to bung it into their Books at this early juncture. In sum, then, Sir, my expectation is 7448s for the notebooks across the board for the nonce. Apple will have words to say about Cell at WWDC, but likely in connection with PowerMacs. The G5 moniker will surely stay, I should think.
Tinkerty-tonk!
Ah - I don't think "Cell", as in the chip going into the Playstation, will ever appear in an Apple laptop, but the components of a cell design might well. IBM has made it clear that it allows customers to pick'n'mix from all sorts of CPU goodness. The components in the current cell architecture have been worked on over the last four years at least. Apple, as an IBM customer, will surely have been aware of what was going on, even if it played no part in the actual design process. If - and it is a big if - Apple bought into the whole Cell thing early enough, then they could have requested their own PPE + XXX chip. I think they probably have, but agree with you that to expect it to be announced next week is stretching things...
But a PowerBook G5? Will happen sooner rather than later.
Photoshop has every need to go 64 bit. Apparently you haven't worked with composites of 1920 x 1080 576dpi images. Doing filters on these images takes a lot out of cpu processing. Granted... altivec helps during this... If 64bit registers were usable for this it would considerably increase the speed.
Comments
Marketing comes after the fact. If you think about it what is the difference (for the average person) between a g4 and a g5? One is a little bigger than the other? You have internalized previous marketing to make the difference a vast and improtant one. All we (normal people) want is faster cheaper better.
Originally posted by DHagan4755
You guys keep forgetting that Apple revealed PowerBook G5s in that plist file in 10.3.5. Remember PowerBook 7,1 and PowerBook 7,2?
Yeah, but we also keep remembering.
Originally posted by DHagan4755
You guys keep forgetting that Apple revealed PowerBook G5s in that plist file in 10.3.5. Remember PowerBook 7,1 and PowerBook 7,2?
And since when has 7 == G5? O_o
Originally posted by T'hain Esh Kelch
And since when has 7 == G5? O_o
When it's in a set of extensions for G5 processors.
Originally posted by Bucolic Old Sir Henry
... From Think Secret in November and December last year: also explicitly refers to a third low-power chip that will top out at 2GHz for laptop use. ...
Pip pip!
What ho, Sir Henry, cast your mind back to 2003. Recall all the juicy stuff we had on the 970 then? Pretty much exhaustive technical information? Specs on blade products, and so on? The photos with feathers? If the low-power 970 were real, and going into machines this year, we'd know a lot more about it than we do at this point.
The Cell is the bee's knees, but it would seem a bit ambitious to expect Apple to bung it into their Books at this early juncture. In sum, then, Sir, my expectation is 7448s for the notebooks across the board for the nonce. Apple will have words to say about Cell at WWDC, but likely in connection with PowerMacs. The G5 moniker will surely stay, I should think.
Tinkerty-tonk!
Originally posted by DHagan4755
You guys keep forgetting that Apple revealed PowerBook G5s in that plist file in 10.3.5. Remember PowerBook 7,1 and PowerBook 7,2?
Maybe it was added so we wouldn't know when a PowerBook G5 really came out!
As for a WWDC launch of PowerBooks - not likely. I think Paris will see PowerBook updates and depending on the plan iBooks before or after - they do need an upgrade though. If I'm honest I think Apple will update both PowerBooks and iBooks before MWSF. Then give them a bigger update then.
Originally posted by jwdawso
Just because the GUI doesn't run 64-bit doesn't mean that it doesn't control a 64-bit program. There is nothing that requires "64-bit" as far as the GUI - the G5 runs seamlessly 64-bit and 32-bit programs, whereas the wintel universe does not. That's why the wintel gui has to be 64-bit also.
Lets see you create a 64bit gui program? Lets see you create a program in cocoa or carbon library... using objective-c, objective-c++, c, java... whatever your choices... and use 64bit encoding. Lets see you access more than 4gb memory with this gui app. IT CANT BE DONE. THERE AREN'T ANY 64BIT GUI LIBRARIES FOR OS X!
You can't make the argument that they run side by side because they don't. They don't even exist. They can't exist. OS X doesn't allow them to exist. I am a firm believer that they will some day. And that they will run side by side. But currently there is NO 64bit GUI support. I'm not calling the Finder a GUI... i'm calling any program you run with a Graphical User Interface being gui. IE... any cocoa or carbon app. No 64bit support.
Originally posted by Bucolic Old Sir Henry
You want proof! I'm not Mr Jobs, y'know...
But I do (still) have a memory that goes back more than a few days. Here and here. From Think Secret in November and December last year: also explicitly refers to a third low-power chip that will top out at 2GHz for laptop use. The second article could be construed to imply that the MP could find its way into a laptop as well. If TS is right - and they're worth suing, after all - Apple apparently has choices...
Pip pip!
Where in there does it say they were sampled last year? Only thing I could find is this: "However, sources continue to report that IBM is working to develop other low-power 970-series processors topping out around 2GHz that could find their way into future PowerBooks instead."... Nothing about sampling the processor.
Originally posted by MacCrazy
Maybe it was added so we wouldn't know when a PowerBook G5 really came out!
As for a WWDC launch of PowerBooks - not likely. I think Paris will see PowerBook updates and depending on the plan iBooks before or after - they do need an upgrade though. If I'm honest I think Apple will update both PowerBooks and iBooks before MWSF. Then give them a bigger update then.
iBooks have to be updated WAY before MWSF... There are a lot of people in the boat of not buying a laptop because the graphics solutions in the iBooks aren't Core compatible, and the graphics card in the 12" powerbook is a little too weak. This stuff does matter to people. The iBooks were last updated in OCT... so they HAVE to be updated before then at the VERY least. Otherwise they would have ran over a year update cycle... I still haven't witnessed that process from apple, though I wouldn't put anything past them when it comes to computer refreshes.
I'd expect WWDC to be the last opportunity for an iBook update. Anything passed that is out of line.
Originally posted by emig647
iBooks have to be updated WAY before MWSF... There are a lot of people in the boat of not buying a laptop because the graphics solutions in the iBooks aren't Core compatible, and the graphics card in the 12" powerbook is a little too weak. This stuff does matter to people. The iBooks were last updated in OCT... so they HAVE to be updated before then at the VERY least. Otherwise they would have ran over a year update cycle... I still haven't witnessed that process from apple, though I wouldn't put anything past them when it comes to computer refreshes.
I'd expect WWDC to be the last opportunity for an iBook update. Anything passed that is out of line.
I meant an update to both any time now (iBooks first) and then a major upgrade at MWSF. The iBooks need an upgrade now - although Apple wants the G5 out so it can upgrade the iBooks by more!
Originally posted by MacCrazy
I meant an update to both any time now (iBooks first) and then a major upgrade at MWSF. The iBooks need an upgrade now - although Apple wants the G5 out so it can upgrade the iBooks by more!
Yah I'm actually extremely surprised that the iBooks haven't been updated yet. I expected it to be updated in late april.
Originally posted by emig647
There are a lot of people in the boat of not buying a laptop because the graphics solutions in the iBooks aren't Core compatible...
I too think iBooks are going to be updated soon.
But I would think most people are NOT UNWILLING to purchase a current iBook because it's NOT CORE compatible. My hunch is that the person who is in the market for an iBook is a lot like me: grossly ignorant about what seems to be clear to more savvy types. They're not even really cognizant of what a video card is. You could stop them at the register in the Apple Store and tell them it's not CORE compatible but they would scratch their heads and say what's a core? Believe me, I'm one step from being such a person. Look at amazon.com: the best selling laptop on there is the 12" iBook. In fact it seems to be selling better than PC desktops, if you can believe it. The rankings are alledgedly updated hourly. In anycase, it's selling like crazy even though it's not 100% Tiger compatible. Why? Marketing presumably, for one. And for two, the ibook consumer doesn't know and/or care that he should be getting more for his money.
That being said, sales will not continue at this pitch indefinitely; Jobs will pre-empt a slump by refreshing the line. Of course Apple, not me, knows better from a business standpoint when to do this. iBooks introduced at WWDC seems ludicrous but not impossible considering the purpose of the venue. I'm no developer (if that isn't obvious already) but if I were, I wouldn't want much more than 10 seconds of my time at WWDC hearing about a new iBook.
I for one, will purchase the first new Apple laptop to come out, be it the iBook or the Powerbook, simply because I feel like for once purchasing at the beginning of a cycle rather at the end, which is when I got my first two Apple computers.
So bring on the G5 PB or the Dual G4 PB or a faster PB or faster iBook, whatever, anything so my investment will not be devalued in two weeks.
Originally posted by emig647
Lets see you create a 64bit gui program? ...snip...
But I can't see why you need to do that?
Any project large and complex enough to need 64-bit addressing is likely to be split into a number of components - and a 32-bit GUI can happily be one of those components.
Originally posted by jwdawso
No need to shout
MVC - Model - View - Controller. The GUI itself doesn't need to address anything above 32-bit - it's just a representation and a stimulus of the underlying. The actual 64-bit (such as a large database) application is connected to the GUI via a pipe, and is controlled or returns results through the pipe.
32-bit and 64-bit applications can run side-by-side on G5s - it's a feature.
With MVC, yes you can have a 64bit back end for data... but that doesn't help processing. Programs like Photoshop or Cinema or Maya or Mathmatica... any programs that need hard core processing need the libraries to be included with the cocoa / carbon apis. So it can use 64bit registers and processes them in once clock cycle.
I think you're confused when I say GUI 64bit library. I'm not saying the UI needs the 64bit library separately. I'm saying the carbon or cocoa api needs the 64bit library. Which does not exist. Therefore, NO carbon or cocoa application can use 64bit processing without inline assembly programming. No one is going to jump on that feature. No 64bit cocoa or carbon (GUI apps)applications can exist, this is my point.... Processing is lost in the 64bit world. PPC has the power to run in 32bit and 64bit mode, so OSX can always run both without being tied to one or the other. Its going to be a matter of time before we'll see 64bit cocoa / carbon applications. You can't consider an application with a 64bit data backend a 64bit application. Because no 64bit processing is going on except retrieving data... which is still going to take the 32bit amount of clockcycles to retrieve the data... so no speed is really being gained anyways.
Originally posted by krispie
But I can't see why you need to do that?
The whole point is apple isn't attacking 64bit harder than anyone (as stated above), so there isn't a HUGE need for a g5 powerbook, since it can't even support 64bit cocoa / carbon applications. Since this isn't supported yet, a g4mp would be much appreciated.
One of the things that holds me back from getting a laptop is the fact that there is only one core. I'd rather have a dual 800 than a 1.67 single. That dual cpu saves your bacon more. Multiprocessing is a great feature since not all cpu processes are optimized and can hog a cpu if they desire, if you're doing something else at the same time that 2nd cpu kicks in and takes care of that for you. After using the 1.67ghz Powerbook, I was very disappointed. I saw the cpu max out way too much during my use of using it.
With traveling this summer, i'm going to have to get a laptop anyways, so I have to live with whats available after WWDC.
Originally posted by emig647
With MVC, yes you can have a 64bit back end for data... but that doesn't help processing. Programs like Photoshop or Cinema or Maya or Mathmatica... any programs that need hard core processing need the libraries to be included with the cocoa / carbon apis. So it can use 64bit registers and processes them in once clock cycle.
Ooo, a discussion of software architecture on AI - Who'da thunk it :-)
Anyways, when I'm architecting a 64-bit application, I would absolutely try to use some form of decoupling between the GUI and the 64-bit parts of the code - why bog the GUI down when you don't need to?
The use of low level mechanisms like "pipes" or other distributed mechanisms is a very, very good idea in a 64-bit GUI app, especially on a Mach based O/S where these kinds of mechanisms are supported at the kernel level for extremely high performance - much of Mach communicates via "ports" between threads and processes.
What I don't know is if Tiger supports separation into 32 and 64 bit by process or by thread. The former is easier to do from the OS perspective, but there is a loss of performance when the GUI sends something to the back end - requiring a context switch in the O/S.
As far as Photoshop is concerned, the MVC model is actually a very good one - the filter or whatever you want to apply is dispatched to the 64-bit part of the app, executes and the screen gets updated. Not so good for painting for example, but you're not going to get a big advantage with 64-bit there anyway.
Similarly for video and audio applications - dispatch the request to a 64-bit process with a pointer to where the data lives in virtual memory, and have at it.
Originally posted by cubist
What ho, Sir Henry, cast your mind back to 2003. Recall all the juicy stuff we had on the 970 then? Pretty much exhaustive technical information? Specs on blade products, and so on? The photos with feathers? If the low-power 970 were real, and going into machines this year, we'd know a lot more about it than we do at this point.
Indeed, but Apple seems to be a lot more paranoid about leaked info these days, and if Apple is the only customer for a chip then they can (and do) demand complete secrecy. We do know a fair bit about the MP and GX - perhaps they'll find their way into IBM blades...
Originally posted by cubist
The Cell is the bee's knees, but it would seem a bit ambitious to expect Apple to bung it into their Books at this early juncture. In sum, then, Sir, my expectation is 7448s for the notebooks across the board for the nonce. Apple will have words to say about Cell at WWDC, but likely in connection with PowerMacs. The G5 moniker will surely stay, I should think.
Tinkerty-tonk!
Ah - I don't think "Cell", as in the chip going into the Playstation, will ever appear in an Apple laptop, but the components of a cell design might well. IBM has made it clear that it allows customers to pick'n'mix from all sorts of CPU goodness. The components in the current cell architecture have been worked on over the last four years at least. Apple, as an IBM customer, will surely have been aware of what was going on, even if it played no part in the actual design process. If - and it is a big if - Apple bought into the whole Cell thing early enough, then they could have requested their own PPE + XXX chip. I think they probably have, but agree with you that to expect it to be announced next week is stretching things...
But a PowerBook G5? Will happen sooner rather than later.
Pip pip!
Originally posted by krispie
Photoshop has no need to go 64 bit.
Photoshop has every need to go 64 bit. Apparently you haven't worked with composites of 1920 x 1080 576dpi images. Doing filters on these images takes a lot out of cpu processing. Granted... altivec helps during this... If 64bit registers were usable for this it would considerably increase the speed.