this bureaucratic bullshit is exactly why america has sucked in response to this disaster. never in my life would i have expected bureaucracy and politics to become the barrier of life and death for thousands in america
this bureaucratic bullshit is exactly why america has sucked in response to this disaster. never in my life would i have expected bureaucracy and politics to become the barrier of life and death for thousands in america
I pretty much agree.
Well, I wouldn't say it's "all" the fault of the bureaucratic bullshit, but the bureaucratic bullshit definitely makes things much worse.
And, of course, the bureaucratic bullshit refuses to accept responsibility for that.
The very first thing I posted was the EMERGENCY declaration, which as my post plainly shows (with bold type, even!!!) was on Saturday, BEFORE the hurricane actually hit. In other words, she DID start the process before the Hurricane.
You tried to shoot that down by saying you meant Disaster and not Emergency, so I made a second post with the date of THAT declaration.
Which is why both you and pbook are completely wrong.
Mayor Ray Nagin, who on Thursday night had scathing remarks for the federal government's response to the crisis, praised President Bush after Bush's trip through the region Friday.
Nagin said Bush was "very serious" and "very engaging" during his time in New Orleans.
"He was brutally honest. He wanted to know the truth," Nagin said. "... And we talked turkey. I think we're in a good spot now."
I was happy to read this.
Quote:
Nine stockpiles of fire-and-rescue equipment strategically placed around the country to be used in the event of a catastrophe still have not been pressed into service in New Orleans, five days after Hurricane Katrina, CNN has learned.
Another problem you have with Bush, is that he has become a lame duck president earlier than usual. The long vacations and banjo playing proved that, and so does his response to this disaster.
Frustration about the federal response to Hurricane Katrina has reached Chicago City Hall, as Mayor Richard Daley today noted a tepid response by federal officials to the city's offers of disaster aid.
The city is willing to send hundreds of personnel, including firefighters and police, and dozens of vehicles to assist on the storm-battered Gulf Coast, but so far the Federal Emergency Management Agency has requested only a single tank truck, Daley said.
"I was shocked," he said.
"We are ready to provide considerably more help than they have requested," the mayor said, barely able to contain his anger during a City Hall news conference. "We are just waiting for the call."
As someone who's seen emergency preparedness planning from the "inside," I feel like I see things very differently than many of you. I work for a city government and have been involved in table-top exercises, crisis communication training, etc. Before we point fingers, we need to look at all the unforeseens that happened in NO.
First, I don't think anyone on the local or state level anticipated a nearly complete failure of communications. I'm not talking about this guy not telling this other guy what he's doing, but the fact that radios, cell phones and telephones ALL went down. In those situations, HAM operators have often been charged with the duty of supplying a communications backbone on which to rely. It sounds to me like they were crippled or non-existent after Katrina moved through. You all have to realize that communications are SO incredibly vital in disasters, and I would say that the majority of response failures occurred because communications were disabled.
Second, I suspect that local and state officials -- after Katrina moved slightly east and downgraded to a Cat 4 -- assumed that the levees were going to hold. Remember that they didn't break until nearly a DAY after Katrina hit landfall. The amount of destruction on Monday was far less significant than the destruction on Tuesday. Call it human nature or bad science, but somebody just got it wrong about the levees.
Dealing with disasters is an interesting beast, because it all goes from the bottom up. Our emergency preparedness manager consistently tell us that if we have a disaster in our city, we need to start getting information to the state. Anything that goes to the federal level has to go through the state first. That's every state in the union. So the NO officials knew that they had certain procedures that they needed to follow. Now for whatever reason, there were delays going from local to state and state to federal.
Without stretching this post out too much longer, I definitely think a lot of good will come out of everything bad that has happened. You have to realize that emergency planners all over the nation plan the best they can for the worst to happen. But very honestly, it's hard to know what the worst could actually be, and you can't drill the worst possible scenario because of logistics, funding, etc. So you get everything you know how to into place and hope your planning was good enough.
And unfortunately this nation has a history of more efficient planning through hindsight. We have to experience something worse to be able to plan better. That's just how things work. It sucks, I know. Funding is still a major issue. It's all well and good to say that we needed to have better plans, but who's paying for it? How MUCH are we willing to devote to planning/preparing for the absolute worst that could happen, even though we don't know if or when it will ever happen again? I'll almost guarantee you that NOBODY spent enough money to plan for this. What happened in NO is not a scenario that local or state emergency planners expect to ever escalate to. It might be something that the feds have provisions for, but folks, this was on the level of an atomic bomb detonation.* It goes back to planning as best you can based on what you know, but even that isn't good enough sometimes.
I GUARANTEE you that emergency planners all over the world will look at this situation and develop better plans for the future based on what we now know. It's cliched to say, but this amount and speed of response won't happen again because we'll be better next time. More funding will be released on all levels of government to take this type of disaster into account and better prepare for it.
* - Speaking of atomic bomb detonations, I would almost guarantee you that the no level of government has enough provisions in place in case of an atomic bomb detonation, let alone multiple detonations. The feds might, but local and state officials are at the mercy of hope that an a-bomb is not going to happen.
Second, I suspect that local and state officials -- after Katrina moved slightly east and downgraded to a Cat 4 -- assumed that the levees were going to hold. Remember that they didn't break until nearly a DAY after Katrina hit landfall. The amount of destruction on Monday was far less significant than the destruction on Tuesday. Call it human nature or bad science, but somebody just got it wrong about the levees.
I'm sorry, but that's about where I stopped reading. Computer simulations had been run for years, and people knew exactly what was going to happen. The levees where built to withstand >Cat 3< - you would have to be a bit of an idiot to think they would survive Cat 4.
Secondly - you have proof on video that Federal officials didn't give a shit. You have the director of fema LYING on CNN, and you have BUSH playing the Banjo on the weekend right before the storm.
Third - it really doesn't matter if the storm weakened on Monday - Federal officials weren't prepared anyway. Are you trying to tell me that as of Sunday night - they had proper emergency responses in place - but after the storm weakend on Monday - they cancelled everything?
Quote:
I GUARANTEE you that emergency planners all over the world will look at this situation and develop better plans for the future based on what we now know.
Uh -NO, they are in complete shock and disbelief. 3rd world countries have already proven to be far more capable in handling disasters - by far. They are learning nothing from this - they are just shaking their heads.
Please tell me - what it is that you think we know now, that we didn't before? That if you do absolutely nothing after a natural disaster, that more people will die and suffer needlessly? BRAVO!!
That's what I've been saying - It produces no results to place blame on anyone
That's not what you've been saying at all. You've been spending post after post blaming state and local responses while trying to downplay the federal response.
I trust that the people of Louisiana will deal their officials, it's my job as a resident of illinois to deal the federal ones.
The performance of Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco in the first days after the Katrina disaster has some wondering whether she's up to the daunting task of guiding her state as its largest city struggles to recover.
It goes on to show hoe she has completely dropped the ball here. A weak link in the leadership chain.
New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson offered Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco help from his state's National Guard on Sunday, the day before Hurricane Katrina hit Louisiana. Blanco accepted, but paperwork needed to get the troops en route didn't come from Washington until late Thursday.
Since communication is required for proper response for major catastrophies, which include loss of power and local infrastructure, Satellite communications or mobile communication vehicles are required. Of course they might already have them or lack the funding for them. I would expect FEMA to have these and stationed for fast responce to emergencies. I also agree that we are good about revising plans after the fact. Hopefully we will do better the next time.
That's what I've been saying - It produces no results to place blame on anyone
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
There have been questions of Blanco's ability to coordinate this thing form day ... It goes on to show hoe she has completely dropped the ball here. A weak link in the leadership chain.
Sometimes I wonder if you are even capable of going more than two posts without totally contradicting yourself.
The big problem with the FEMA and Homeland Security response is that it's national, it affects all of us and it's current state is wholly due to decisions by one administration.
The big problem with the FEMA and Homeland Security response is that it's national, it affects all of us and it's current state is wholly due to decisions by one administration.
Yeah - you know, if it turns out that this rescue operation was bungled, not because of racism - but because Fema and Homeland are really a bunch of fucking morons - then I would be pretty worried if I was living in L.A. when the "big one hit" or in NewYork during a chemical or biological weapon attack.
Comments
Originally posted by Bronxite
this bureaucratic bullshit is exactly why america has sucked in response to this disaster. never in my life would i have expected bureaucracy and politics to become the barrier of life and death for thousands in america
I pretty much agree.
Well, I wouldn't say it's "all" the fault of the bureaucratic bullshit, but the bureaucratic bullshit definitely makes things much worse.
And, of course, the bureaucratic bullshit refuses to accept responsibility for that.
As always.
Originally posted by FormerLurker
The very first thing I posted was the EMERGENCY declaration, which as my post plainly shows (with bold type, even!!!) was on Saturday, BEFORE the hurricane actually hit. In other words, she DID start the process before the Hurricane.
You tried to shoot that down by saying you meant Disaster and not Emergency, so I made a second post with the date of THAT declaration.
Which is why both you and pbook are completely wrong.
See? That wasn't so hard.
See you tomorrow fellow floridian.
It will be clearer when the sun comes up.
Originally posted by NaplesX
See you tomorrow fellow floridian.
It will be clearer when the sun comes up.
of that I have no doubt.
Insomnia sucks.
Originally posted by FormerLurker
of that I have no doubt.
Insomnia sucks.
Good discussion. Good night.
not to mention zebra
Mayor Ray Nagin, who on Thursday night had scathing remarks for the federal government's response to the crisis, praised President Bush after Bush's trip through the region Friday.
Nagin said Bush was "very serious" and "very engaging" during his time in New Orleans.
"He was brutally honest. He wanted to know the truth," Nagin said. "... And we talked turkey. I think we're in a good spot now."
I was happy to read this.
Nine stockpiles of fire-and-rescue equipment strategically placed around the country to be used in the event of a catastrophe still have not been pressed into service in New Orleans, five days after Hurricane Katrina, CNN has learned.
I was not so happy to read that.
Frustration about the federal response to Hurricane Katrina has reached Chicago City Hall, as Mayor Richard Daley today noted a tepid response by federal officials to the city's offers of disaster aid.
The city is willing to send hundreds of personnel, including firefighters and police, and dozens of vehicles to assist on the storm-battered Gulf Coast, but so far the Federal Emergency Management Agency has requested only a single tank truck, Daley said.
"I was shocked," he said.
"We are ready to provide considerably more help than they have requested," the mayor said, barely able to contain his anger during a City Hall news conference. "We are just waiting for the call."
First, I don't think anyone on the local or state level anticipated a nearly complete failure of communications. I'm not talking about this guy not telling this other guy what he's doing, but the fact that radios, cell phones and telephones ALL went down. In those situations, HAM operators have often been charged with the duty of supplying a communications backbone on which to rely. It sounds to me like they were crippled or non-existent after Katrina moved through. You all have to realize that communications are SO incredibly vital in disasters, and I would say that the majority of response failures occurred because communications were disabled.
Second, I suspect that local and state officials -- after Katrina moved slightly east and downgraded to a Cat 4 -- assumed that the levees were going to hold. Remember that they didn't break until nearly a DAY after Katrina hit landfall. The amount of destruction on Monday was far less significant than the destruction on Tuesday. Call it human nature or bad science, but somebody just got it wrong about the levees.
Dealing with disasters is an interesting beast, because it all goes from the bottom up. Our emergency preparedness manager consistently tell us that if we have a disaster in our city, we need to start getting information to the state. Anything that goes to the federal level has to go through the state first. That's every state in the union. So the NO officials knew that they had certain procedures that they needed to follow. Now for whatever reason, there were delays going from local to state and state to federal.
Without stretching this post out too much longer, I definitely think a lot of good will come out of everything bad that has happened. You have to realize that emergency planners all over the nation plan the best they can for the worst to happen. But very honestly, it's hard to know what the worst could actually be, and you can't drill the worst possible scenario because of logistics, funding, etc. So you get everything you know how to into place and hope your planning was good enough.
And unfortunately this nation has a history of more efficient planning through hindsight. We have to experience something worse to be able to plan better. That's just how things work. It sucks, I know. Funding is still a major issue. It's all well and good to say that we needed to have better plans, but who's paying for it? How MUCH are we willing to devote to planning/preparing for the absolute worst that could happen, even though we don't know if or when it will ever happen again? I'll almost guarantee you that NOBODY spent enough money to plan for this. What happened in NO is not a scenario that local or state emergency planners expect to ever escalate to. It might be something that the feds have provisions for, but folks, this was on the level of an atomic bomb detonation.* It goes back to planning as best you can based on what you know, but even that isn't good enough sometimes.
I GUARANTEE you that emergency planners all over the world will look at this situation and develop better plans for the future based on what we now know. It's cliched to say, but this amount and speed of response won't happen again because we'll be better next time. More funding will be released on all levels of government to take this type of disaster into account and better prepare for it.
* - Speaking of atomic bomb detonations, I would almost guarantee you that the no level of government has enough provisions in place in case of an atomic bomb detonation, let alone multiple detonations. The feds might, but local and state officials are at the mercy of hope that an a-bomb is not going to happen.
Not only that nearlyu 1/3 of the local police force turned tail and ran AND DID NOT COME BACK.
A whole series of falures happened and thus the delay.
That's what I've been saying - It produces no results to place blame on anyone
Originally posted by CosmoNut
Second, I suspect that local and state officials -- after Katrina moved slightly east and downgraded to a Cat 4 -- assumed that the levees were going to hold. Remember that they didn't break until nearly a DAY after Katrina hit landfall. The amount of destruction on Monday was far less significant than the destruction on Tuesday. Call it human nature or bad science, but somebody just got it wrong about the levees.
I'm sorry, but that's about where I stopped reading. Computer simulations had been run for years, and people knew exactly what was going to happen. The levees where built to withstand >Cat 3< - you would have to be a bit of an idiot to think they would survive Cat 4.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4210674.stm
Secondly - you have proof on video that Federal officials didn't give a shit. You have the director of fema LYING on CNN, and you have BUSH playing the Banjo on the weekend right before the storm.
Third - it really doesn't matter if the storm weakened on Monday - Federal officials weren't prepared anyway. Are you trying to tell me that as of Sunday night - they had proper emergency responses in place - but after the storm weakend on Monday - they cancelled everything?
I GUARANTEE you that emergency planners all over the world will look at this situation and develop better plans for the future based on what we now know.
Uh -NO, they are in complete shock and disbelief. 3rd world countries have already proven to be far more capable in handling disasters - by far. They are learning nothing from this - they are just shaking their heads.
Please tell me - what it is that you think we know now, that we didn't before? That if you do absolutely nothing after a natural disaster, that more people will die and suffer needlessly? BRAVO!!
Originally posted by NaplesX
That's what I've been saying - It produces no results to place blame on anyone
That's not what you've been saying at all. You've been spending post after post blaming state and local responses while trying to downplay the federal response.
I trust that the people of Louisiana will deal their officials, it's my job as a resident of illinois to deal the federal ones.
There have been questions of Blanco's ability to coordinate this thing form day 2:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2...1/105333.shtml
The performance of Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco in the first days after the Katrina disaster has some wondering whether she's up to the daunting task of guiding her state as its largest city struggles to recover.
It goes on to show hoe she has completely dropped the ball here. A weak link in the leadership chain.
New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson offered Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco help from his state's National Guard on Sunday, the day before Hurricane Katrina hit Louisiana. Blanco accepted, but paperwork needed to get the troops en route didn't come from Washington until late Thursday.
reg
Originally posted by NaplesX
That's what I've been saying - It produces no results to place blame on anyone
Originally posted by NaplesX
There have been questions of Blanco's ability to coordinate this thing form day ... It goes on to show hoe she has completely dropped the ball here. A weak link in the leadership chain.
Sometimes I wonder if you are even capable of going more than two posts without totally contradicting yourself.
Originally posted by giant
The big problem with the FEMA and Homeland Security response is that it's national, it affects all of us and it's current state is wholly due to decisions by one administration.
Yeah - you know, if it turns out that this rescue operation was bungled, not because of racism - but because Fema and Homeland are really a bunch of fucking morons - then I would be pretty worried if I was living in L.A. when the "big one hit" or in NewYork during a chemical or biological weapon attack.