Yeah - you know, if it turns out that this rescue operation was bungled, not because of racism - but because Fema and Homeland are really a bunch of fucking morons - then I would be pretty worried if I was living in L.A. when the "big one hit" or in NewYork during a chemical or biological weapon attack.
Right. Not that the pure raw power of nature is anything to worry about there or the threat that the Big one might hit any day.
It's a moot point because FEMA and the federal Homeland Security Department were tasked with coordinating the federal response and were aware of what their role was supposed to be even before katrina hit land.
Who coordinate the city and state response? Why was it so late in coming?
Most of you here have NO idea how complex emergency management is. If you had even the faintest clue of how many people below the politicians actually are involved in the process, you'd be amazed that decisions were made as quickly as there were. Before, during, and after a disaster, it's a fallible system. Because of the very nature of how many people are involved and how complex an undertaking it is, added to the fact that the politicians aren't REALLY the ones implementing the plan, there are imperfections in the system.
Once you see it all from the inside, behind the scenes, you allow yourself to be a little more lenient in your criticism of the system. Do I think there have been major faults in the response to Katrina? Of course. Do I think everyone involved -- from the emergency management level up -- did the best they could with what they'd planned for? Most of the time.
So the question is, who do I blame for the poor response? I blame the system. Emergency preparedness in this country is such a convoluted system that I'm amazed it works as well as it does. There are so many layers of emergency responders, jurisdictional departments, emergency managers, jurisdictional law, politicians, agencies, etc. etc. that all this stuff has to go through that it's really amazing that anything gets done at all. If you'd like, we could play the "How Did the 9 Million MREs get to New Orleans?" game.
Who coordinate the city and state response? Why was it so late in coming?
Cities and states coordinate their response. In this scenario, I think most of New Orleans' city services (police, fire, power dept., etc.) were all crippled by the hurricane and subsequent flooding. On the state level, they have emergency managers and can coordinate mutual aid from other local jurisdictions, but they're mostly paper pushers, interacting with the feds. The governor obviously has the ability to activate the national guard, but that's assuming they're available (i.e. not in Iraq or not wiped out themselves by the storm).
It seems to me that local and state officials here were caught with their pants down. I bet that everything they'd planned for was disabled, leaving them with very little usable resources. Once that occurred, they probably looked at the feds and went, "Uh, we've got nothing. Help. Now."
We need to all get together on all of this. We shouid celebrate the fact that people are being rescued and that help is being provided. Pointing fingers gets absolutely nothing at all accomplished.
I think we should all "ask not what your country can do for you: Ask what you can do for your country". This is a time to unite.
Let's knock this crap off. I'm done with this, let's help this get solved.
This was the Federal Government's responsibility, in particular, the Department of Homeland Security. 9/11 supposedly "changed everything," and this was the one thing - an attack/natural disaster - that the feds should have gotten right.
In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort.
1) Unless you know anything more than what you may have read or heard in the last week about Mayor Ray Nagin don't bother trying to place blame on him because it makes you look foolish. This is a genuinely great man doing everything he can with the resources he has.
2) When this is all said and done and the situation has been assessed I predict more than 15,000 people to have fallen victim to this disaster. Many will be from the downtown area, but many will be from St. Bernard, St. Tammany, and especially Plaquemines parishes. While the population of Orleans Parish is along the order of 67% black (hence the large numbers of blacks who were being sheltered in the superdome) you will find the casualties in the other parishes surrounding the immediate metro area to be distributed without any racial bias, however nobody is talking about this on the news. It seems to be "an obvious racial issue" because all that people see are the "poor blacks" downtown. Honestly most people here feel like if thats what it takes to get aid here so be it, but what you dont see on the media (listen up Kanye West) are the hundreds of White AND blacks dieing in their attics all over the city.
3) There is no one person to place this blame on nor is their one decision that put us in this situation. For years and years people here have talked about this scenario and how bad it would be. Our state representatives (both Dem. & Rep.) have been begging and pleading to get much needed funding to prevent coastal erosion here. This may seem like a seperate issue but it is not. The fact of the matter is that Louisiana has long been ignored when it comes to funding. This was a HUGE factor when trying to assess the innitial damage after the storm. The local government up to the mayor (notice I leave the governor out of this equation) were as prepared as they could have been with the resources they had. When it was all said and done the mayor was screaming and cussing on the radio here, which is all we've had for most of the last week that we need help! This is a situation where most of the blame falls on the government from top to bottom. If you have any doubt that Louisiana doesnt pull it's end of the economic rope then go to your local gas station and watch the prices rise. This is simply a matter of neglect and misjudgment at many levels. It has little if anything at all to do with race or poverty.
That is a little overly dramatic - all of the businesses and most of the people will be reimbursed by their insurance, and they will re-build a cleaner, newer version of New Orleans. Since morgage lenders require home insurance, the only people that lose everything are ones that rent without insurance, or own their home outright without insurance - the second category would be very few people.
I was wrong on this one - insured losses are estimated at $26 billion, and uninsured losses are estimated at $50 billion, according to CNN.
And playmaker - I doubt that you are right about the even distribution of black and white casulties. White people are richer on average than black people, and the rich got out.
yeah e#, even though Playmaker LIVES IN NEW ORLEANS, you know more about the demographics of the local population than he does....
He does not know who is in their attic any more than you or I do. I think that it is very strange to suggest that there will not be a black-white bias on the pre-hurricane evacuations - because I guarenteee you that there is a difference in income and asset distribution between the races.
There will be an even greater bias in the death toll, because rich people will have a stronger house, higher up on the hill, and have more food stored, even if they were foolish enough to stay.
70% of the people evacuated - the rest are either foolish or very poor. Foolishness is not racially weighted, but poverty is.
I was wrong on this one - insured losses are estimated at $26 billion, and uninsured losses are estimated at $50 billion, according to CNN.
And playmaker - I doubt that you are right about the even distribution of black and white casulties. White people are richer on average than black people, and the rich got out.
I am right about it because I live here and I know from first hand knowledge. I really dont want to carry on with you over the race issue because I think it's already far too exploited as is. All I was trying to say is that the media and people like kanye west and jessie jackson love to throw a race card by telling you half truths or maybe it's just plain ignorance. Yes New Orleans metro area is 67% black and a large portion of the entire city (again mostly black) are poor. This does not explain why the people living in Chalmette, St Bernard, Slidell, Plaquemines, and even on into the Mississippi & Alabama gulf coast (who are prodominantly white are not getting the supplies they need or in many cases being rescued quickly either). The fact is this is a logistical disaster of epic proportions and it was vastly underestimated in terms the initial damage caused. It is not a race issue but whatever you and the hatred filled others want to believe is fine. You just keep an eye out for the people doing the rescuing and the people who have been stuck in the hospitals working around the clock to save peoples lives and risking their own because they come in all colors.
I can assure you of this however my best friend since childhood made it back to town today and he lives, wait excuse me LIVED in St. Tammany Parish and lost everything (I mean everything). He is one of many that I know who lost all of their possessions and NO the insurance even flood insurance does not cover rising water it only covers you if there is damage to your home and water gets in as a result. No need to argue here I know the facts and I have a devistated friend who can explain it all to you. Whatever FEMA and other organazations do to help out remains to be seen but it's really sad to loose everything you own in a house that is a little over a year old...have no compensation for it, but yet you still have a mortgage. So if you wanna talk about just the poor thats fine but at least they lost everything and are without a mortgage.
Race is an excuse that is being fed to people by the ignorant and people with an adgenda looking to get people fired up. Thats the facts.
Cities and states coordinate their response. In this scenario, I think most of New Orleans' city services (police, fire, power dept., etc.) were all crippled by the hurricane and subsequent flooding. [/b/
Why weren't they ready for a complete failure of the levees? It was only a matter of time so they should have been better prepared.
Quote:
On the state level, they have emergency managers and can coordinate mutual aid from other local jurisdictions, but they're mostly paper pushers, interacting with the feds. The governor obviously has the ability to activate the national guard, but that's assuming they're available (i.e. not in Iraq or not wiped out themselves by the storm).[/B]
only like 10% of the state's NG is in Iraq.
Quote:
It seems to me that local and state officials here were caught with their pants down. I bet that everything they'd planned for was disabled, leaving them with very little usable resources. Once that occurred, they probably looked at the feds and went, "Uh, we've got nothing. Help. Now."
What happened in NO was text book. Levee breaks, city floods. They should have been better prepared. I like to keep blame close to the source. That's the mayor and the governor.
Anyway think about this. The Hospital back up generators were below flood level. Even if they had diesel they couldn't run. What kind of city, living below sea level on a water way, has it's hospital back up generators below the flood level? That one mistake alone lead to many deaths.
The fact is this is a logistical disaster of epic proportions and it was vastly underestimated in terms the initial damage caused.
Absolutely.
It's warmed my heart to see the convoys coming in, but the fact remains that people were left without food and water for what, five/six days? As Nagin said, it's too little, too late, but at least things are getting done now.
But we're thinking about y'all. I told my students the other day that America is about to get a crash course in how important Louisiana is to the US economy.
Comments
Originally posted by the cool gut
Yeah - you know, if it turns out that this rescue operation was bungled, not because of racism - but because Fema and Homeland are really a bunch of fucking morons - then I would be pretty worried if I was living in L.A. when the "big one hit" or in NewYork during a chemical or biological weapon attack.
Right. Not that the pure raw power of nature is anything to worry about there or the threat that the Big one might hit any day.
That post was sad.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Right. Not that the pure raw power of nature is anything to worry about there or the threat that the Big one might hit any day.
That post was sad.
What " Big one " is that?
Originally posted by giant
It's a moot point because FEMA and the federal Homeland Security Department were tasked with coordinating the federal response and were aware of what their role was supposed to be even before katrina hit land.
Who coordinate the city and state response? Why was it so late in coming?
Once you see it all from the inside, behind the scenes, you allow yourself to be a little more lenient in your criticism of the system. Do I think there have been major faults in the response to Katrina? Of course. Do I think everyone involved -- from the emergency management level up -- did the best they could with what they'd planned for? Most of the time.
So the question is, who do I blame for the poor response? I blame the system. Emergency preparedness in this country is such a convoluted system that I'm amazed it works as well as it does. There are so many layers of emergency responders, jurisdictional departments, emergency managers, jurisdictional law, politicians, agencies, etc. etc. that all this stuff has to go through that it's really amazing that anything gets done at all. If you'd like, we could play the "How Did the 9 Million MREs get to New Orleans?" game.
Originally posted by PBook12
Who coordinate the city and state response? Why was it so late in coming?
State responses = National Guard = In Iraq under Pentagon leadership (owing to war time situation).
Local response = uh the cops were trying to help people...
Originally posted by PBook12
Who coordinate the city and state response? Why was it so late in coming?
Cities and states coordinate their response. In this scenario, I think most of New Orleans' city services (police, fire, power dept., etc.) were all crippled by the hurricane and subsequent flooding. On the state level, they have emergency managers and can coordinate mutual aid from other local jurisdictions, but they're mostly paper pushers, interacting with the feds. The governor obviously has the ability to activate the national guard, but that's assuming they're available (i.e. not in Iraq or not wiped out themselves by the storm).
It seems to me that local and state officials here were caught with their pants down. I bet that everything they'd planned for was disabled, leaving them with very little usable resources. Once that occurred, they probably looked at the feds and went, "Uh, we've got nothing. Help. Now."
We need to all get together on all of this. We shouid celebrate the fact that people are being rescued and that help is being provided. Pointing fingers gets absolutely nothing at all accomplished.
I think we should all "ask not what your country can do for you: Ask what you can do for your country". This is a time to unite.
Let's knock this crap off. I'm done with this, let's help this get solved.
From the Department of Homeland Security's web page :
In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort.
1) Unless you know anything more than what you may have read or heard in the last week about Mayor Ray Nagin don't bother trying to place blame on him because it makes you look foolish. This is a genuinely great man doing everything he can with the resources he has.
2) When this is all said and done and the situation has been assessed I predict more than 15,000 people to have fallen victim to this disaster. Many will be from the downtown area, but many will be from St. Bernard, St. Tammany, and especially Plaquemines parishes. While the population of Orleans Parish is along the order of 67% black (hence the large numbers of blacks who were being sheltered in the superdome) you will find the casualties in the other parishes surrounding the immediate metro area to be distributed without any racial bias, however nobody is talking about this on the news. It seems to be "an obvious racial issue" because all that people see are the "poor blacks" downtown. Honestly most people here feel like if thats what it takes to get aid here so be it, but what you dont see on the media (listen up Kanye West) are the hundreds of White AND blacks dieing in their attics all over the city.
3) There is no one person to place this blame on nor is their one decision that put us in this situation. For years and years people here have talked about this scenario and how bad it would be. Our state representatives (both Dem. & Rep.) have been begging and pleading to get much needed funding to prevent coastal erosion here. This may seem like a seperate issue but it is not. The fact of the matter is that Louisiana has long been ignored when it comes to funding. This was a HUGE factor when trying to assess the innitial damage after the storm. The local government up to the mayor (notice I leave the governor out of this equation) were as prepared as they could have been with the resources they had. When it was all said and done the mayor was screaming and cussing on the radio here, which is all we've had for most of the last week that we need help! This is a situation where most of the blame falls on the government from top to bottom. If you have any doubt that Louisiana doesnt pull it's end of the economic rope then go to your local gas station and watch the prices rise. This is simply a matter of neglect and misjudgment at many levels. It has little if anything at all to do with race or poverty.
Originally posted by e1618978
That is a little overly dramatic - all of the businesses and most of the people will be reimbursed by their insurance, and they will re-build a cleaner, newer version of New Orleans. Since morgage lenders require home insurance, the only people that lose everything are ones that rent without insurance, or own their home outright without insurance - the second category would be very few people.
I was wrong on this one - insured losses are estimated at $26 billion, and uninsured losses are estimated at $50 billion, according to CNN.
And playmaker - I doubt that you are right about the even distribution of black and white casulties. White people are richer on average than black people, and the rich got out.
Originally posted by FormerLurker
yeah e#, even though Playmaker LIVES IN NEW ORLEANS, you know more about the demographics of the local population than he does....
He does not know who is in their attic any more than you or I do. I think that it is very strange to suggest that there will not be a black-white bias on the pre-hurricane evacuations - because I guarenteee you that there is a difference in income and asset distribution between the races.
There will be an even greater bias in the death toll, because rich people will have a stronger house, higher up on the hill, and have more food stored, even if they were foolish enough to stay.
70% of the people evacuated - the rest are either foolish or very poor. Foolishness is not racially weighted, but poverty is.
In the surrounding parishes (more suburban and even rural), the poor are white just as much as black.
Originally posted by e1618978
I was wrong on this one - insured losses are estimated at $26 billion, and uninsured losses are estimated at $50 billion, according to CNN.
And playmaker - I doubt that you are right about the even distribution of black and white casulties. White people are richer on average than black people, and the rich got out.
I am right about it because I live here and I know from first hand knowledge. I really dont want to carry on with you over the race issue because I think it's already far too exploited as is. All I was trying to say is that the media and people like kanye west and jessie jackson love to throw a race card by telling you half truths or maybe it's just plain ignorance. Yes New Orleans metro area is 67% black and a large portion of the entire city (again mostly black) are poor. This does not explain why the people living in Chalmette, St Bernard, Slidell, Plaquemines, and even on into the Mississippi & Alabama gulf coast (who are prodominantly white are not getting the supplies they need or in many cases being rescued quickly either). The fact is this is a logistical disaster of epic proportions and it was vastly underestimated in terms the initial damage caused. It is not a race issue but whatever you and the hatred filled others want to believe is fine. You just keep an eye out for the people doing the rescuing and the people who have been stuck in the hospitals working around the clock to save peoples lives and risking their own because they come in all colors.
I can assure you of this however my best friend since childhood made it back to town today and he lives, wait excuse me LIVED in St. Tammany Parish and lost everything (I mean everything). He is one of many that I know who lost all of their possessions and NO the insurance even flood insurance does not cover rising water it only covers you if there is damage to your home and water gets in as a result. No need to argue here I know the facts and I have a devistated friend who can explain it all to you. Whatever FEMA and other organazations do to help out remains to be seen but it's really sad to loose everything you own in a house that is a little over a year old...have no compensation for it, but yet you still have a mortgage. So if you wanna talk about just the poor thats fine but at least they lost everything and are without a mortgage.
Race is an excuse that is being fed to people by the ignorant and people with an adgenda looking to get people fired up. Thats the facts.
Originally posted by CosmoNut
Cities and states coordinate their response. In this scenario, I think most of New Orleans' city services (police, fire, power dept., etc.) were all crippled by the hurricane and subsequent flooding. [/b/
Why weren't they ready for a complete failure of the levees? It was only a matter of time so they should have been better prepared.
On the state level, they have emergency managers and can coordinate mutual aid from other local jurisdictions, but they're mostly paper pushers, interacting with the feds. The governor obviously has the ability to activate the national guard, but that's assuming they're available (i.e. not in Iraq or not wiped out themselves by the storm).[/B]
only like 10% of the state's NG is in Iraq.
It seems to me that local and state officials here were caught with their pants down. I bet that everything they'd planned for was disabled, leaving them with very little usable resources. Once that occurred, they probably looked at the feds and went, "Uh, we've got nothing. Help. Now."
What happened in NO was text book. Levee breaks, city floods. They should have been better prepared. I like to keep blame close to the source. That's the mayor and the governor.
Originally posted by PBook12
only like 10% of the state's NG is in Iraq.
[/B]
Yeah, but so is 90% of the money.
Anyway think about this. The Hospital back up generators were below flood level. Even if they had diesel they couldn't run. What kind of city, living below sea level on a water way, has it's hospital back up generators below the flood level? That one mistake alone lead to many deaths.
Originally posted by Playmaker
The fact is this is a logistical disaster of epic proportions and it was vastly underestimated in terms the initial damage caused.
Absolutely.
It's warmed my heart to see the convoys coming in, but the fact remains that people were left without food and water for what, five/six days? As Nagin said, it's too little, too late, but at least things are getting done now.
But we're thinking about y'all. I told my students the other day that America is about to get a crash course in how important Louisiana is to the US economy.
God bless, Playmaker. Stay safe.