Intel Viiv platform. Hardware tuned to multimedia.
Nvidia and ATI support for HDMI and HDCP A/V I/O
BTX motherboards- ideal for smaller cases
[/B]
Other than making a formalized standard, I don't see anything special about VIIV except for branding, a marketing campaign and a document that establishes what parts are in a VIIV system. I'm not sure how PCs can be any more "tuned" to multimedia. I would liken it to an HTPC version of Centrino, the parts are good but what makes it successful as basically marketing.
With Vista, I figure HDCP is pretty much a given expectation.
There have been numerous compact case standards over the years, none have really caught on, I don't see what's special about the various BTX form factors that will change that other than just being the latest to come around, assuming it catches.
.....Hell I'm beginning to think that need for a HD-DVD and Blu-Ray STB player is waning. Imagine slapping in a Blu-Ray and HD-DVD player into a Silverstone HTPC case backed up by a full computer platform. Easily done for under $1500 and you have the ability to play games, DVR, general computing and everything else inbetween on one box. That's where I'm headed folks. All with one HDMI connection to my Pre-Amp and racked power amps. Voila! Viva La Revolutione ....
sounds good although hope you don't run into any of that HDCP problemas \ i don't know much about HDCP at the moment but i'm scared
edit:
playing HalfLife2 on a 42" or more 16:9 plasma/lcd would be teh rock !!11!!11
sounds good although hope you don't run into any of that HDCP problemas \ i don't know much about HDCP at the moment but i'm scared
edit:
playing HalfLife2 on a 42" or more 16:9 plasma/lcd would be teh rock !!11!!11
Well it's going to happen. HDMI is coming to the PC. Version 1.2 adds support for 1bit signaling(SACD) and RGP and YUV flavors that allow for computer display support. ATI and NVIDIA are on their way with product.
Quote:
Other than making a formalized standard, I don't see anything special about VIIV except for branding, a marketing campaign and a document that establishes what parts are in a VIIV system.
Agreed. Intel hasn't given much information on it but I do believe they will have more info forthcoming and that ViiV will tie into BTX.
BTX should have better
Thermal characteristics
More logical motherboard placement
Structural improvement
Flexible motherboard sizes beyond FlexATX, MATX and ATX.
I'm sure it's a worthy change. I remember when people complained about ATX. The PC hates change because it costs more money.
BTX will allow PC makers to be more Apple like in their designs however.
well, hdmi, btx, etc... while i loathe the arrival of HDCP i look forward to what companies like amd, asus, zalman, coolermaster and ati/nvidia bring to the table. while regular pc manufacturers will try to keep cash flow going without having to do to much, the upper-tier companies know that they have to differentiate themselves away from commodity chinese/taiwanese pc companies and "supply innovation" to stay in the game...
an example where this comes together is the amd-nforce4-asus8n-SLI-premium motherboard which has passive cooling throughout the motherboard (except of course for the cpu heatsink+fan) but in this case northbridge and southbridge cooling is quiet `n cool.
so btx and hdmi will give these companies a chance to innovate and drive adoption at the same time, if they focus on the stuff consumers are after: a faster, cooler, quiter, easier, richer experience.
of course, increased use of copper, liquid cooling, and amd/intel high performance/watt ratios should make for an interesting scenario.
what's fascinating here is apple is going to sit on the sidelines, watch how the market plays out, and use the very same components that all these other cats (intel, asus, etc) develop and put a shine and polish and take all of them to skool in the meantime we'll all be here whining about how we can make the same stuff for half the price ourselves, how the iHome is only updated twice a year, or how the iHome may suddenly be upgraded for the same price without one knowing....
Blu-ray: $400 player (PS3) + let's say $35 per movie
HD-DVD: $1,000 player + let's say $30 per movie
2. Apple shipped HD-DVD support in May... but the HD-DVD spec changes every month. So those discs created with DVDSP probably won't play in real HD-DVD players.
3. BD-J vs. iHD: You can compile XML+JS into Java, but not vice versa.
Having said that, I don't care who wins any more; the two formats are too similar.
sounds good although hope you don't run into any of that HDCP problemas \ i don't know much about HDCP at the moment but i'm scared
Just remember two things:
- do the research before buying
- if you don't like it, don't buy it because it encourages them to make more
The way I see it, people who will be hit hardest by HDCP are the totally law-abiding, paying consumers and TV watchers who will one program at a time be denied timeshifting, recording, replaying *anything*. The content owners will milk these folks for money as long as someone pays.
In contrast, copyright infringing content is just pixels and sound, so HDCP has no way of recognizing it, and the peglegged gentleman-adventurers of the Internet are not affected in any shape or form.
The sooner we see reasonably priced HDCP-noHDCP adapters (made with the same HDCP codes than most popular TV's to make bans impossible), the better. Some adapters turned up in Germany already, but they're 350e apiece.
[Next lets discuss an area that people are forgetting. HTPC. The ingredients are beginning to come together and soon they will congeal into a powerhouse platform.
Hardware
Intel Viiv platform. Hardware tuned to multimedia.
Nvidia and ATI support for HDMI and HDCP A/V I/O
BTX motherboards- ideal for smaller cases
Software
Microsoft's Media Center PC
I still don't think that Media Center PCs will be a big hit.
I shudder whenever I see some of the new Media Center PCs. They consist of several hardware parts from different vendors assembled by Dell, HP or other PC makers.
And why do we need a full version of Windows underneath with some Media Center software tagged on? What about virus, spyware and so on? The underlying tech is too complex for the average user.
They are not even cheap and should at most be compared to other all-in-one home theater solutions.
For the same money as some of the Media Center PCs I've seen I can buy a much better amp and a much better DVD player with a hard drive (let's say from Denon). They don't need to be restarted and they don't suddenly crash - they just work.
It's a shame that HAVI seems to have gone nowhere, but instead of making a Media Center copy, Apple should instead introduce a video version of AirPort Express, where you can see you photos, watch your movies and control iTunes on your TV using a remote.
A future iTVS will fit in there too.
That's the big difference between Apple and Microsoft. Microsoft will try to shoehorn Windows into everything and Apple will focus on hardware not necessarily relying on Mac OS X.
Disc Capacity - HD-DVD wins (NO 50G BRD's at launch)
interactivity - HD-DVD wins. As a seasoned DVD author I can tell you that the facilities in the HD-DVD are an easily understood dream for somebody like me. The BRD's Java implementation is an absolute bloody nightmare and I want nothing to do with it.
Managed copy - equal
Cost of new BR pressing plant - millions
Cost of HD-DVD plant conversion - thousands
From a commercial point of view I want to be authoring HD content discs as soon and as cheaply as possible. This is only going to be viable with HD-DVD.
I think both systems will survive in the marketplace but I believe that just the same as with Beta and DAT, BlueRay will become a professional video/data archiving format whereas HD-DVD will be the high-street winner.
I wish the Blu-Ray association had addressed the cost issue. I really can't say cost of upgrading the production lines is really an issue, $2M for a production line that would probably press billions of discs is pocket change, and well worth it for the disc capacity increase.
They really didn't say enough about the MS/Intel claims of problems producing dual layer BRDs either.
Disc Capacity - HD-DVD wins (NO 50G BRD's at launch)
interactivity - HD-DVD wins. As a seasoned DVD author I can tell you that the facilities in the HD-DVD are an easily understood dream for somebody like me. The BRD's Java implementation is an absolute bloody nightmare and I want nothing to do with it.
Managed copy - equal
Cost of new BR pressing plant - millions
Cost of HD-DVD plant conversion - thousands
From a commercial point of view I want to be authoring HD content discs as soon and as cheaply as possible. This is only going to be viable with HD-DVD.
I think both systems will survive in the marketplace but I believe that just the same as with Beta and DAT, BlueRay will become a professional video/data archiving format whereas HD-DVD will be the high-street winner.
Did you read the above link?? My emphasis-
Quote:
Capacity: Blu-ray Disc's capacity is 50GB. This will be available at launch for BD-ROM, BD-R, and BD-RE. This is 67% more than HD DVD's 30GB ROM capacity and 150% more than its recordable storage capacity - a critical issue for computer users.
HD DVD is proven to deliver 30GB capacity today, with the potential to deliver even greater capacity. The 50GB claim for BD-ROM discs is unproven and will not be available for many years to come, based on discussions with major Japanese and US replicators. Replicators not only do not have test lines running, they cannot even pre-order the equipment to begin evaluating this disc. They cannot judge the cost of these discs, or even whether they can be manufactured at all. Major replicators can mass manufacture 30GB HD DVD discs today and it?s well understood that these discs will cost significantly less to manufacture than the lower-capacity 25GB BD discs.
So who do you believe, the actual disk replicators, or the BDA?
That's not Blu-Rays response that some marketing boob from HP. They conveniently left out a lot of information.
Quote:
They really didn't say enough about the MS/Intel claims of problems producing dual layer BRDs either.
You're right. MS and Intel aren't refuting that 50GB DL isn't a part of the initial BD spec. They're saying that it's unlikely that there will be any content that actually uses the discs due to manufacturing difficulties thus a "working" 30GB DL HD-DVD is larger than the 25GB SL BDROM disc that they see being the only disc being used for movies.
My guess is that 30GB DL HD-DVD proves to be much easier to manufacture than 50GB DL BDROM. We'll see what happens but I don't see many pressing plants jumping up and down with glee over Blu-Ray costs.
Quote:
So who do you believe, the actual disk replicators, or the BDA?
Count me in with the replicators and other industry vets who are looking at Blu-Ray and forcasting a debacle coming.
oh no... another piece of thingy for fanboys to fill up forums about
my 2 cents though since we ARE on the topic is that HD-DVD seems to have a lot of movie (read: content is king) studios lined up. but that's just one piece of the pizzle... i mean puzlle... um i mean... puzzle.
my 2 cents though since we ARE on the topic is that HD-DVD seems to have a lot of movie (read: content is king) studios lined up. but that's just one piece of the pizzle... i mean puzlle... um i mean... puzzle.
Both sides seem to have equal numbers of movie studios behind them, and I don't think Sony/MGM's catalog should be taken lightly.
so Fox, Sony and MGM is formidable but NewLine, Paramount, Universal, and WarnerBros bring quite a bit to the table.
Yes, they do, but something I read several months ago said that Sony/CTS/MGM and Fox combined account for over 50% of the DVD market in terms of copies sold and in terms of number of titles available.
Quote:
the winner will be those that make bluray-hddvd combo-drives
I'm hoping the matter will be settled before then.
My main interest in the format is not in the movies but recordables. I'd prefer to have a large capacity without resorting to a second layer, because I really don't trust dual layer optical recordable media yet. Though one thing left out of the exchanges is that there is a dual layer (re)writable standard currenty in BRD, but not really in HD-DVD.
I also want high definition video as well on the same format rather than splitting BRD for backups and HD-DVD for the set-top box, so I'm hoping the issues with BRD are fixed.
yeah i hope they sort out this mess too, although right now where i am living DVDs cost $60 a piece in local currency so high defs will be about $100 a piece initially.... with a rather limited title selection. so i've got one or two years
yeah i see your dilemma with the recording side. for me, the viewing the titles side, fox and sony has a good range of blockbusters plus tv shows from their current 720p cable line-up. but new line has lord of the rings, wb has matrix, etc... so in terms of seeing those big highdef blockbusters yeah i hope they can standardise on one format.
but fair points mate, i'm just looking at my resident evil 1 dvd (superbit) and that's columbia/tristar - which is sony. hmm....
Comments
Originally posted by hmurchison
Hardware
Intel Viiv platform. Hardware tuned to multimedia.
Nvidia and ATI support for HDMI and HDCP A/V I/O
BTX motherboards- ideal for smaller cases
[/B]
Other than making a formalized standard, I don't see anything special about VIIV except for branding, a marketing campaign and a document that establishes what parts are in a VIIV system. I'm not sure how PCs can be any more "tuned" to multimedia. I would liken it to an HTPC version of Centrino, the parts are good but what makes it successful as basically marketing.
With Vista, I figure HDCP is pretty much a given expectation.
There have been numerous compact case standards over the years, none have really caught on, I don't see what's special about the various BTX form factors that will change that other than just being the latest to come around, assuming it catches.
Originally posted by hmurchison
.....Hell I'm beginning to think that need for a HD-DVD and Blu-Ray STB player is waning. Imagine slapping in a Blu-Ray and HD-DVD player into a Silverstone HTPC case backed up by a full computer platform. Easily done for under $1500 and you have the ability to play games, DVR, general computing and everything else inbetween on one box. That's where I'm headed folks. All with one HDMI connection to my Pre-Amp and racked power amps. Voila! Viva La Revolutione ....
sounds good
edit:
playing HalfLife2 on a 42" or more 16:9 plasma/lcd would be teh rock !!11!!11
Originally posted by sunilraman
sounds good
edit:
playing HalfLife2 on a 42" or more 16:9 plasma/lcd would be teh rock !!11!!11
Well it's going to happen. HDMI is coming to the PC. Version 1.2 adds support for 1bit signaling(SACD) and RGP and YUV flavors that allow for computer display support. ATI and NVIDIA are on their way with product.
Other than making a formalized standard, I don't see anything special about VIIV except for branding, a marketing campaign and a document that establishes what parts are in a VIIV system.
Agreed. Intel hasn't given much information on it but I do believe they will have more info forthcoming and that ViiV will tie into BTX.
BTX should have better
Thermal characteristics
More logical motherboard placement
Structural improvement
Flexible motherboard sizes beyond FlexATX, MATX and ATX.
I'm sure it's a worthy change. I remember when people complained about ATX. The PC hates change because it costs more money.
BTX will allow PC makers to be more Apple like in their designs however.
an example where this comes together is the amd-nforce4-asus8n-SLI-premium motherboard which has passive cooling throughout the motherboard (except of course for the cpu heatsink+fan) but in this case northbridge and southbridge cooling is quiet `n cool.
so btx and hdmi will give these companies a chance to innovate and drive adoption at the same time, if they focus on the stuff consumers are after: a faster, cooler, quiter, easier, richer experience.
of course, increased use of copper, liquid cooling, and amd/intel high performance/watt ratios should make for an interesting scenario.
what's fascinating here is apple is going to sit on the sidelines, watch how the market plays out, and use the very same components that all these other cats (intel, asus, etc) develop and put a shine and polish and take all of them to skool
1. Cost:
Blu-ray: $400 player (PS3) + let's say $35 per movie
HD-DVD: $1,000 player + let's say $30 per movie
2. Apple shipped HD-DVD support in May... but the HD-DVD spec changes every month. So those discs created with DVDSP probably won't play in real HD-DVD players.
3. BD-J vs. iHD: You can compile XML+JS into Java, but not vice versa.
Having said that, I don't care who wins any more; the two formats are too similar.
Originally posted by sunilraman
sounds good
Just remember two things:
- do the research before buying
- if you don't like it, don't buy it because it encourages them to make more
The way I see it, people who will be hit hardest by HDCP are the totally law-abiding, paying consumers and TV watchers who will one program at a time be denied timeshifting, recording, replaying *anything*. The content owners will milk these folks for money as long as someone pays.
In contrast, copyright infringing content is just pixels and sound, so HDCP has no way of recognizing it, and the peglegged gentleman-adventurers of the Internet are not affected in any shape or form.
The sooner we see reasonably priced HDCP-noHDCP adapters (made with the same HDCP codes than most popular TV's to make bans impossible), the better. Some adapters turned up in Germany already, but they're 350e apiece.
Originally posted by hmurchison
[Next lets discuss an area that people are forgetting. HTPC. The ingredients are beginning to come together and soon they will congeal into a powerhouse platform.
Hardware
Intel Viiv platform. Hardware tuned to multimedia.
Nvidia and ATI support for HDMI and HDCP A/V I/O
BTX motherboards- ideal for smaller cases
Software
Microsoft's Media Center PC
I still don't think that Media Center PCs will be a big hit.
I shudder whenever I see some of the new Media Center PCs. They consist of several hardware parts from different vendors assembled by Dell, HP or other PC makers.
And why do we need a full version of Windows underneath with some Media Center software tagged on? What about virus, spyware and so on? The underlying tech is too complex for the average user.
They are not even cheap and should at most be compared to other all-in-one home theater solutions.
For the same money as some of the Media Center PCs I've seen I can buy a much better amp and a much better DVD player with a hard drive (let's say from Denon). They don't need to be restarted and they don't suddenly crash - they just work.
It's a shame that HAVI seems to have gone nowhere, but instead of making a Media Center copy, Apple should instead introduce a video version of AirPort Express, where you can see you photos, watch your movies and control iTunes on your TV using a remote.
A future iTVS will fit in there too.
That's the big difference between Apple and Microsoft. Microsoft will try to shoehorn Windows into everything and Apple will focus on hardware not necessarily relying on Mac OS X.
http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews...27_190208.html
Originally posted by sloanlo
Tom's hardware ran a nice roundup of the 6 reasons Microsoft and Intel went for HD-DVD.
http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews...27_190208.html
Hmm...and here is Blu-Ray's response...
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4135071&EDATE=
hybrid disc...gone
disc capacity...gone
interactivity...gone
managed copy...gone
HD-DVD possibly winning...gone
Thanks for coming out...
Originally posted by marzetta7
There goes some of your arguments HD-DVD fans...
hybrid disc...gone
disc capacity...gone
interactivity...gone
managed copy...gone
HD-DVD possibly winning...gone
Thanks for coming out...
Hybrid disc - equal
Disc Capacity - HD-DVD wins (NO 50G BRD's at launch)
interactivity - HD-DVD wins. As a seasoned DVD author I can tell you that the facilities in the HD-DVD are an easily understood dream for somebody like me. The BRD's Java implementation is an absolute bloody nightmare and I want nothing to do with it.
Managed copy - equal
Cost of new BR pressing plant - millions
Cost of HD-DVD plant conversion - thousands
From a commercial point of view I want to be authoring HD content discs as soon and as cheaply as possible. This is only going to be viable with HD-DVD.
I think both systems will survive in the marketplace but I believe that just the same as with Beta and DAT, BlueRay will become a professional video/data archiving format whereas HD-DVD will be the high-street winner.
Originally posted by marzetta7
There goes some of your arguments HD-DVD fans...
hybrid disc...gone
disc capacity...gone
interactivity...gone
managed copy...gone
HD-DVD possibly winning...gone
Thanks for coming out...
I wish the Blu-Ray association had addressed the cost issue. I really can't say cost of upgrading the production lines is really an issue, $2M for a production line that would probably press billions of discs is pocket change, and well worth it for the disc capacity increase.
They really didn't say enough about the MS/Intel claims of problems producing dual layer BRDs either.
Originally posted by vinney57
Hybrid disc - equal
Disc Capacity - HD-DVD wins (NO 50G BRD's at launch)
interactivity - HD-DVD wins. As a seasoned DVD author I can tell you that the facilities in the HD-DVD are an easily understood dream for somebody like me. The BRD's Java implementation is an absolute bloody nightmare and I want nothing to do with it.
Managed copy - equal
Cost of new BR pressing plant - millions
Cost of HD-DVD plant conversion - thousands
From a commercial point of view I want to be authoring HD content discs as soon and as cheaply as possible. This is only going to be viable with HD-DVD.
I think both systems will survive in the marketplace but I believe that just the same as with Beta and DAT, BlueRay will become a professional video/data archiving format whereas HD-DVD will be the high-street winner.
Did you read the above link?? My emphasis-
Capacity: Blu-ray Disc's capacity is 50GB. This will be available at launch for BD-ROM, BD-R, and BD-RE. This is 67% more than HD DVD's 30GB ROM capacity and 150% more than its recordable storage capacity - a critical issue for computer users.
Originally posted by KidRed
Did you read the above link?? My emphasis-
And then read this article
From the article:
HD DVD is proven to deliver 30GB capacity today, with the potential to deliver even greater capacity. The 50GB claim for BD-ROM discs is unproven and will not be available for many years to come, based on discussions with major Japanese and US replicators. Replicators not only do not have test lines running, they cannot even pre-order the equipment to begin evaluating this disc. They cannot judge the cost of these discs, or even whether they can be manufactured at all. Major replicators can mass manufacture 30GB HD DVD discs today and it?s well understood that these discs will cost significantly less to manufacture than the lower-capacity 25GB BD discs.
So who do you believe, the actual disk replicators, or the BDA?
Originally posted by marzetta7
Hmm...and here is Blu-Ray's response...
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4135071&EDATE=
That's not Blu-Rays response that some marketing boob from HP. They conveniently left out a lot of information.
They really didn't say enough about the MS/Intel claims of problems producing dual layer BRDs either.
You're right. MS and Intel aren't refuting that 50GB DL isn't a part of the initial BD spec. They're saying that it's unlikely that there will be any content that actually uses the discs due to manufacturing difficulties thus a "working" 30GB DL HD-DVD is larger than the 25GB SL BDROM disc that they see being the only disc being used for movies.
My guess is that 30GB DL HD-DVD proves to be much easier to manufacture than 50GB DL BDROM. We'll see what happens but I don't see many pressing plants jumping up and down with glee over Blu-Ray costs.
So who do you believe, the actual disk replicators, or the BDA?
Count me in with the replicators and other industry vets who are looking at Blu-Ray and forcasting a debacle coming.
my 2 cents though since we ARE on the topic is that HD-DVD seems to have a lot of movie (read: content is king) studios lined up. but that's just one piece of the pizzle... i mean puzlle... um i mean... puzzle.
Originally posted by sunilraman
my 2 cents though since we ARE on the topic is that HD-DVD seems to have a lot of movie (read: content is king) studios lined up. but that's just one piece of the pizzle... i mean puzlle... um i mean... puzzle.
Both sides seem to have equal numbers of movie studios behind them, and I don't think Sony/MGM's catalog should be taken lightly.
20th Century Fox
Buena Vista Home Entertainment
MGM Studios
Sony Pictures Entertainment
The Walt Disney Company
here's hd-dvd*:
Buena Vista Home Entertainment
New Line Cinema
Paramount Pictures
The Walt Disney Company
Universal Studios
Warner Bros
hmmm... okay, so disney is on both camps...
so Fox, Sony and MGM is formidable but NewLine, Paramount, Universal, and WarnerBros bring quite a bit to the table.
*from:
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000623059130/
Originally posted by sunilraman
hmmm... okay, so disney is on both camps...
so Fox, Sony and MGM is formidable but NewLine, Paramount, Universal, and WarnerBros bring quite a bit to the table.
Yes, they do, but something I read several months ago said that Sony/CTS/MGM and Fox combined account for over 50% of the DVD market in terms of copies sold and in terms of number of titles available.
I'm hoping the matter will be settled before then.
My main interest in the format is not in the movies but recordables. I'd prefer to have a large capacity without resorting to a second layer, because I really don't trust dual layer optical recordable media yet. Though one thing left out of the exchanges is that there is a dual layer (re)writable standard currenty in BRD, but not really in HD-DVD.
I also want high definition video as well on the same format rather than splitting BRD for backups and HD-DVD for the set-top box, so I'm hoping the issues with BRD are fixed.
yeah i see your dilemma with the recording side. for me, the viewing the titles side, fox and sony has a good range of blockbusters plus tv shows from their current 720p cable line-up. but new line has lord of the rings, wb has matrix, etc... so in terms of seeing those big highdef blockbusters yeah i hope they can standardise on one format.
but fair points mate, i'm just looking at my resident evil 1 dvd (superbit) and that's columbia/tristar - which is sony. hmm....