hmurchison- I know you like HD-DVD, but now Intel is backing away from their support. I'm sorry, but M$ and a few electronic makers will not beat out BRD if this jumping ship continues, regardless of cost.
Intel has the weakest of influence. Microsoft's impact dwarfs Intel's but I like the fact that they are holding out for Managed Copy.
Paramount suprised me and it's definitely a gamble. I'd like to see a BD content provider do the same because what Paramount could be doing is either helping the cause or really screwing things up.
I will have both formats because I don't want limitations with my movie choice but HD-DVD is clearly the format that intrudes the least upon my fair use rights. I don't really value the extra space of Blu-Ray and I don't trust the skimpy spincoat to prevent scratches.
Blu-Ray appeals to the worst in content providers to whom the consumer is an afterthought as well as the Geek that views "more" as synonomous with better.
Simply give me HD 1080p capability with 3 hours of video per disc and I'm a happy camper. Both formats exceed that requirement so price is the next issue and HD-DVD is going to be cheaper.
30GB DL HD-DVD= 4.76 hours of HD content. 3 hrs easy with Dolby or DTS lossles audio. Put the extras on a second disc or hybrid DVD side.
Triple Layer 45GB will be there for 2nd generation HD-DVD barring any production problems. I wouldn't be surprised to see TL 45GB and BD DL 50GB ship within 6 months of each other in volume.
I hate how DVDs put bonus material on a second disk or even a third disk...or how Lord of the Rings Extended Edition is split into 2 disks.
I want 1 disk for everything...swapping reminds me of the Mac 128k days.
50GB should be good enough for 3+ hours of 1080p and 2 hours of bonus footage. 30GB wouldn't be sufficient for more than a full length HD movie.
I'd be extremely disappointed if HD-DVD won and didn't solve the current problem that DVDs are facing.
While I agree that it would be really annoying to have to switch discs in order to view an entire movie, I don't think it matters if the bonus materials are on a different disk.
Besides, what are you watching that even has worthwhile bonus material? I've seen the bonuses off maybe 20 disks (both run-of-the-mill discs and so-called "special editions"), and none of the extras was worth the time that went into watching them.
Triple Layer 45GB will be there for 2nd generation HD-DVD barring any production problems.
There won't be a second generation, because it would create compatibility problems. Once the first player hits the market in the US, the format is frozen and can't realistically be changed for 8-10 years.
AACS content copy protection has a featured called Managed Copy that would allow you to store your HD films on a hard drive with the proper rights. This would ameliorate any disc switching problems.
The hangup.....HD-DVD is in...the BDA is still non-committal on Managed Copy. I believe support should be mandatory.
We have to look at 5 years from now when the average home will have a 2TB Network Storage device serving out media. Do we really want to kill this wonderful opportunity in its infancy?
if the first HD-DVD discs that come out are "only" 720p and then bluRay pops onto the market a few months later (with PS3 debut) supporting full 1080p, that would be the "flawless victory" type finishing blow to HD-DVD. just some random thoughts and memories of mortal kombat on sega. FINISH HIM !!!
if the first HD-DVD discs that come out are "only" 720p and then bluRay pops onto the market a few months later (with PS3 debut) supporting full 1080p, that would be the "flawless victory" type finishing blow to HD-DVD. just some random thoughts and memories of mortal kombat on sega. FINISH HIM !!!
720p won't be supported in either format. You're going to get 1080i/p or 480i from component outputs.
Quote:
There won't be a second generation, because it would create compatibility problems. Once the first player hits the market in the US, the format is frozen and can't realistically be changed for 8-10 years.
That's a distinct possibility. I would like to see them get it into the 1st generation but there may not even be a need for a TL disc. AVC and VC-1 truly look great at bitrates as low as 12. As much as I like extras I'd prefer the whole disc be used for the best mix of video and audio. If the extras warrant it put it on a second disc.
You're going to get 1080i/p or 480i from component outputs.
I would expect that there won't be 1080p/i or 720p from component outputs unless someone hacks the player.
I personally would expect that the players be able to rescale the image to the display's native resolution, so there's no need to include a 720p data stream if a 1080p datastream is available.
While I'm glad there's going to be early adopters like hmurchison, I think I'll sit the HD/BR battle out until there's a clear winner, assuming that most consumers will even move from the well established "good-enough" DVD standard.
Please pardon my ignorance on this, but this brings up a question: how are the content providers going to try and force HD/BD down consumers' throats? Will new movies only be released in a hybrid disk, which I'm assuming will contain both HD and stardard DVD, with I'm also sure a coresponding price increase of say $5.00-10.00, or will there be both an HD and a seperate DVD release?
As long as what ever format wins or even both, don't get thrown into some obscure corner of the store like SACD/DVDA, then they'll have a chance eventually.
Both formats will be niche markets for at least 2-3 years. Look at DVD, how long did that take to win over from VHS? THe advantage here are the hybrid disks containing both formats and players being backwards compatible. Those with 300+ DVD collections won't be out in the cold. They can gradually build up a HD collection. Or if you have an older DVD in the other room, you don't need to buy two copies of the same movie.
However, does that mean you buy either regular DVD, or hybrid DVDs? Whatever format wins, they should just go solely/exclusively with hybrids (dropping current 480p DVDs). Make every DVD that comes out with 480p and 1080i versions. Hell, if there's room, put a 480p 4:3 version as well. I'd keep prices the same.
I will be an early adapter once PS3 comes out. I will not be buying a player without a clear winner. AND I will not be buying a player or enormous amount of disks until the format has planted itself permanently. My SACD/DVDA disks are collecting dust.
Thanks for the correction. I should have checked my sources. I don't think we have to worry about 720p version 1080i/p because I doubt you will see discs recorded at 720p. The internal scaler will likely just scale the output to 720p if that is all your display will handle.
As long as what ever format wins or even both, don't get thrown into some obscure corner of the store like SACD/DVDA, then they'll have a chance eventually.
Exactly! This is the point that I bring up whenever someone uses the phrase "whichever format ends up winning."
It wouldn't be too much of a suprise if neither format "wins". I'm not predicting that both will be failures... but it certainly isn't out of the question.
Copy prevention schema is what I think will determine industry support as well as consumer adoption rates.
I wonder how these two technologies will fare regionally.
Japan: A first adopter nation. They'll buy what is available first, are not very cost conscious, and do not wait for massive amount of content before buying players. They are a Sony stronghold, and if a HD XBox comes out I think it'll face the same wall than XBox has. Furthermore, the Japanese are historically fine with not using the same technology with rest of the world. I'd bet on Blu-Ray winning here and that the Japanese will continue to use it for quite a while even if the rest of the world happened to lean in the HD-DVD direction.
Finland: Our total-flop digital television initiative is molded around screwy "interactivity" - apparently the decisionmakers never heard of the Internet. HD is not even on the list of their concerns. No idea if we'll have HD television even five years from now. This means there is little motivation to buy HD screens, and consequently little motivation to buy HD players. On the other hand this means we'll go with whatever has won by then. On the other hand it means HD in consoles matters more. When a person doesn't have a HD screen, they definitely won't buy a HD player, but they will buy the consoles. So when HD screen market penetration goes over the critical limit, the vast majority of existing HD players on the market will be consoles.
Rest of Europe: No idea, but if they also have no HD television or poor HD television, the same arguments apply than with Finland.
I wonder how these two technologies will fare regionally.
Good point.
In the states, minidisc is almost non-existant and is considered a complete 100% failure. Yet, travelling abroad I came to realize that this isn't the case everywhere.
It's possible that we'll see a geographic splintering between the two camps.
In the states, minidisc is almost non-existant and is considered a complete 100% failure. Yet, travelling abroad I came to realize that this isn't the case everywhere.
It's possible that we'll see a geographic splintering between the two camps.
Not only that - we might see areas that we would otherwise assume to be level playing grounds fall to one side due to influence of another area where that technology has an advantage.
Comments
Originally posted by KidRed
hmurchison- I know you like HD-DVD, but now Intel is backing away from their support. I'm sorry, but M$ and a few electronic makers will not beat out BRD if this jumping ship continues, regardless of cost.
Intel has the weakest of influence. Microsoft's impact dwarfs Intel's but I like the fact that they are holding out for Managed Copy.
Paramount suprised me and it's definitely a gamble. I'd like to see a BD content provider do the same because what Paramount could be doing is either helping the cause or really screwing things up.
I will have both formats because I don't want limitations with my movie choice but HD-DVD is clearly the format that intrudes the least upon my fair use rights. I don't really value the extra space of Blu-Ray and I don't trust the skimpy spincoat to prevent scratches.
Blu-Ray appeals to the worst in content providers to whom the consumer is an afterthought as well as the Geek that views "more" as synonomous with better.
Simply give me HD 1080p capability with 3 hours of video per disc and I'm a happy camper. Both formats exceed that requirement so price is the next issue and HD-DVD is going to be cheaper.
I hate how DVDs put bonus material on a second disk or even a third disk...or how Lord of the Rings Extended Edition is split into 2 disks.
I want 1 disk for everything...swapping reminds me of the Mac 128k days.
50GB should be good enough for 3+ hours of 1080p and 2 hours of bonus footage. 30GB wouldn't be sufficient for more than a full length HD movie.
I'd be extremely disappointed if HD-DVD won and didn't solve the current problem that DVDs are facing.
Say VC-1/AVC is VBR 14Mbps
14Mbps * 60 seconds= 840Mbps per minute
840Mbps * 60 minutes = 50400 Mbps per hour
50400 / 8= 6300 MB per hour
assuming they use 1GB= 1000MB
6.3GB per hour
30GB DL HD-DVD= 4.76 hours of HD content. 3 hrs easy with Dolby or DTS lossles audio. Put the extras on a second disc or hybrid DVD side.
Triple Layer 45GB will be there for 2nd generation HD-DVD barring any production problems. I wouldn't be surprised to see TL 45GB and BD DL 50GB ship within 6 months of each other in volume.
Hey I'll take both formats if the price is right.
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Is 3 hours per disk sufficient?
I hate how DVDs put bonus material on a second disk or even a third disk...or how Lord of the Rings Extended Edition is split into 2 disks.
I want 1 disk for everything...swapping reminds me of the Mac 128k days.
50GB should be good enough for 3+ hours of 1080p and 2 hours of bonus footage. 30GB wouldn't be sufficient for more than a full length HD movie.
I'd be extremely disappointed if HD-DVD won and didn't solve the current problem that DVDs are facing.
While I agree that it would be really annoying to have to switch discs in order to view an entire movie, I don't think it matters if the bonus materials are on a different disk.
Besides, what are you watching that even has worthwhile bonus material? I've seen the bonuses off maybe 20 disks (both run-of-the-mill discs and so-called "special editions"), and none of the extras was worth the time that went into watching them.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Triple Layer 45GB will be there for 2nd generation HD-DVD barring any production problems.
There won't be a second generation, because it would create compatibility problems. Once the first player hits the market in the US, the format is frozen and can't realistically be changed for 8-10 years.
AACS content copy protection has a featured called Managed Copy that would allow you to store your HD films on a hard drive with the proper rights. This would ameliorate any disc switching problems.
The hangup.....HD-DVD is in...the BDA is still non-committal on Managed Copy. I believe support should be mandatory.
We have to look at 5 years from now when the average home will have a 2TB Network Storage device serving out media. Do we really want to kill this wonderful opportunity in its infancy?
Warner Near Closing Deal to Support Blu-ray
Originally posted by sunilraman
if the first HD-DVD discs that come out are "only" 720p and then bluRay pops onto the market a few months later (with PS3 debut) supporting full 1080p, that would be the "flawless victory" type finishing blow to HD-DVD. just some random thoughts and memories of mortal kombat on sega. FINISH HIM !!!
720p won't be supported in either format. You're going to get 1080i/p or 480i from component outputs.
There won't be a second generation, because it would create compatibility problems. Once the first player hits the market in the US, the format is frozen and can't realistically be changed for 8-10 years.
That's a distinct possibility. I would like to see them get it into the 1st generation but there may not even be a need for a TL disc. AVC and VC-1 truly look great at bitrates as low as 12. As much as I like extras I'd prefer the whole disc be used for the best mix of video and audio. If the extras warrant it put it on a second disc.
Originally posted by hmurchison
720p won't be supported in either format. You're going to get 1080i/p or 480i from component outputs.
Are you sure about that?
http://www.digital-digest.com/highde...aq.html#faq306
"There is also 720p resolution (1280x720, progressive), which is the current native resolution of many home theatre displays"
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Section-13627/Index.html
"All consumer video resolutions are available:
- 1920 x 1080 HD (50i, 60i and 24p)
- 1280 x 720 HD (50p, 60p and 24p)
- 720 x 576/480 SD (50i or 60i)"
Originally posted by hmurchison
You're going to get 1080i/p or 480i from component outputs.
I would expect that there won't be 1080p/i or 720p from component outputs unless someone hacks the player.
I personally would expect that the players be able to rescale the image to the display's native resolution, so there's no need to include a 720p data stream if a 1080p datastream is available.
Please pardon my ignorance on this, but this brings up a question: how are the content providers going to try and force HD/BD down consumers' throats? Will new movies only be released in a hybrid disk, which I'm assuming will contain both HD and stardard DVD, with I'm also sure a coresponding price increase of say $5.00-10.00, or will there be both an HD and a seperate DVD release?
Both formats will be niche markets for at least 2-3 years. Look at DVD, how long did that take to win over from VHS? THe advantage here are the hybrid disks containing both formats and players being backwards compatible. Those with 300+ DVD collections won't be out in the cold. They can gradually build up a HD collection. Or if you have an older DVD in the other room, you don't need to buy two copies of the same movie.
However, does that mean you buy either regular DVD, or hybrid DVDs? Whatever format wins, they should just go solely/exclusively with hybrids (dropping current 480p DVDs). Make every DVD that comes out with 480p and 1080i versions. Hell, if there's room, put a 480p 4:3 version as well. I'd keep prices the same.
I will be an early adapter once PS3 comes out. I will not be buying a player without a clear winner. AND I will not be buying a player or enormous amount of disks until the format has planted itself permanently. My SACD/DVDA disks are collecting dust.
Thanks for the correction. I should have checked my sources. I don't think we have to worry about 720p version 1080i/p because I doubt you will see discs recorded at 720p. The internal scaler will likely just scale the output to 720p if that is all your display will handle.
http://www.panasonic.co.jp/corp/news...n051005-3.html
Originally posted by KidRed
As long as what ever format wins or even both, don't get thrown into some obscure corner of the store like SACD/DVDA, then they'll have a chance eventually.
Exactly! This is the point that I bring up whenever someone uses the phrase "whichever format ends up winning."
It wouldn't be too much of a suprise if neither format "wins". I'm not predicting that both will be failures... but it certainly isn't out of the question.
Copy prevention schema is what I think will determine industry support as well as consumer adoption rates.
Japan: A first adopter nation. They'll buy what is available first, are not very cost conscious, and do not wait for massive amount of content before buying players. They are a Sony stronghold, and if a HD XBox comes out I think it'll face the same wall than XBox has. Furthermore, the Japanese are historically fine with not using the same technology with rest of the world. I'd bet on Blu-Ray winning here and that the Japanese will continue to use it for quite a while even if the rest of the world happened to lean in the HD-DVD direction.
Finland: Our total-flop digital television initiative is molded around screwy "interactivity" - apparently the decisionmakers never heard of the Internet. HD is not even on the list of their concerns. No idea if we'll have HD television even five years from now. This means there is little motivation to buy HD screens, and consequently little motivation to buy HD players. On the other hand this means we'll go with whatever has won by then. On the other hand it means HD in consoles matters more. When a person doesn't have a HD screen, they definitely won't buy a HD player, but they will buy the consoles. So when HD screen market penetration goes over the critical limit, the vast majority of existing HD players on the market will be consoles.
Rest of Europe: No idea, but if they also have no HD television or poor HD television, the same arguments apply than with Finland.
US: No idea.
Originally posted by Gon
I wonder how these two technologies will fare regionally.
Good point.
In the states, minidisc is almost non-existant and is considered a complete 100% failure. Yet, travelling abroad I came to realize that this isn't the case everywhere.
It's possible that we'll see a geographic splintering between the two camps.
Originally posted by dfiler
Good point.
In the states, minidisc is almost non-existant and is considered a complete 100% failure. Yet, travelling abroad I came to realize that this isn't the case everywhere.
It's possible that we'll see a geographic splintering between the two camps.
Not only that - we might see areas that we would otherwise assume to be level playing grounds fall to one side due to influence of another area where that technology has an advantage.
My pal has a portable minidisc player.
I'm your man for failed formats.
Minidisc owner x2 and DCC owner x2.
If either BR or HD-DVD fail I'll add to the list hehehe.