Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD (2006)

15681011106

Comments

  • Reply 141 of 2106
    onlookeronlooker Posts: 5,252member
    My opinion is that the majority of the early adapters for large scale Blue-Ray DVD format is mostly for the motion picture industry. Not only is it in our own best interest for possible future in end delivery (BR-HD-DVD's), but camera manufacturers like Panasonic (panavision) needs the extra storage spaces for motion picture HD camera equipment, and mass storage. A full length movie with CG and all the goodies uncut, or before final compositing, and editing is enormous. Most of the other backers are from film (from the ground up) as well. It's a better product to begin with, but the cost effectiveness for the film industry it is immeasurable. With Terabyte storage and scale being reduced to single hard drive sizes, and in camera HD disk recording being a possible hot swap of terabyte storage away - getting the most possible space on a disk is the best possible solution.

    That being said this is where Blue ray will shine it's brightest at the early stages, and where we will get the early extra cost translated back to the consumer. In charting cost analysis in my head the motion picture industries Blue Ray usage should be able to more than pay for itself in the first year, and it's all gains above that. Keeping HD-DVD format alive being that it can use existing DVD pressing technologies is also a plus for a future Blue Ray transitions. Manufacturing both disks formats will effectively keep the market buzzing while the cost of some of the full Blue Ray transitioning comes down in the process. When it's all said and done taking half a step is more like taking a step backwards. The cost of having only HD-DVD will more than double the price that it will cost the film industry in the end. And when big business looses projected money it's bad for the little people because we don't see it, but we feel the hits that it cost them in our wallets that they translate through their other avenues of revenue. And that's not good. Look what the Oil companies, and those who profit from it did to the world.

    The last thing we need is another economic catastrophe with mostly asian, and american economic sources.



    There is my 2¢ for the day.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 142 of 2106
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,464member
    Quoting Eric Hansen is beyond silliness. What's he supposed to say "I'm heading Blu Ray but I think HD DVD is going to win?"



    It's really looking like both formats will be lucky to last 10 healthy years. The "last mile" issues of broadband will fixed, ILECS will keep running fibre until most people have access to 50Mbps broadband. iTunes is already weaning people off the need to have plastic discs for music and movies are next.



    There is nothing special about Blu Ray that changes these. At todays speeds it takes about 43 minutes to burn a 25GB disc. Double that for the DL...speed isn't Blu Rays strong suite.



    Forget seeing any real penetration in cameras. HDD and flash storage are more appealing and more rugged and the industry will move there.



    I feel for people that fall for this blatant "Marketing" disguised as meaningful discussion that Hansen offers.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 143 of 2106
    marzetta7marzetta7 Posts: 1,323member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    Quoting Eric Hansen is beyond silliness. What's he supposed to say "I'm heading Blu Ray but I think HD DVD is going to win?"



    It's really looking like both formats will be lucky to last 10 healthy years. The "last mile" issues of broadband will fixed, ILECS will keep running fibre until most people have access to 50Mbps broadband. iTunes is already weaning people off the need to have plastic discs for music and movies are next.



    There is nothing special about Blu Ray that changes these. At todays speeds it takes about 43 minutes to burn a 25GB disc. Double that for the DL...speed isn't Blu Rays strong suite.



    Forget seeing any real penetration in cameras. HDD and flash storage are more appealing and more rugged and the industry will move there.



    I feel for people that fall for this blatant "Marketing" disguised as meaningful discussion that Hansen offers.




    Kinda like quoting from Amir at Microsoft, huh.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 144 of 2106
    i wouldn't be so sure about that ps3 producing games at 1080p, not to mention using the blu-ray drive for game development.





    some hands on with the ps3.



    interesting article, nothing i haven't already said though.





    sony is always full of hot air.





    people still bite it though, its crazy.



    http://games.kikizo.com/news/200602/065_p1.asp
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 145 of 2106
    marzetta7marzetta7 Posts: 1,323member
    Ahh, now it appears AACS is now on track. However, it also looks like the first generation players from both HD DVD and Blu-ray will not have Mandatory Managed Copy capability. Hmm, there goes any early adoption for me! If they are going to have it in post generation players, I'll just wait, and just get a PS3 in the meantime.



    http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6308373.html



    Quote:

    High-def camps OK AACS

    On track for March launch, HD DVD starts promo tour

    By Paul Sweeting 2/16/2006

    FEB. 16 | A critical hurdle to the launch of both the Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD formats was cleared late Wednesday when negotiators reached agreement on an interim license for the AACS copy-protection system slated to be used by both high-definition formats, sources involved in the discussions said.



    The interim agreement will permit hardware makers and disc replicators in both format camps to obtain the secret encryption keys needed to start pressing discs and shipping players capable of reading the discs.



    Without such an agreement, it would have been nearly impossible for HD DVD backers to meet their planned late-March launch date, dealing the format a potentially devastating blow.





    Blu-ray hardware makers Samsung and Pioneer plan to start shipping players in May, a date that also would be in peril if an agreement wasn?t reached soon.



    Negotiators worked feverishly over the past several days to hammer out enough agreement to let both sides? launch plans go forward, after efforts to reach a final agreement broke down last Friday without a deal.



    On Wednesday, HD DVD?s principal developer, Toshiba Corp., unveiled plans for a 40-city retail and media tour to showcase the new format and build momentum for the launch.



    The tour kicks off Feb. 22 in New York and Paramus, N.J., followed by stops in Boston; Chicago; San Francisco; Washington, DC and Los Angeles, among other cities.



    The first HD DVD titles are slated to arrive March 28 from Warner Home Video.



    Warner officials were not immediately available for comment.



    Although both the Blu-ray Disc Assn. and the DVD Forum agreed to adopt AACS (Advanced Access Content System) as the primary copy-protection scheme for their respective high-def formats, efforts to negotiate final terms and conditions for implementing the technology have faltered, often amid bitter recriminations among AACS member companies.



    The technology was co-developed by Sony, Toshiba, Panasonic, IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Warner Bros. and the Walt Disney Co., which will jointly oversee licensing through the AACS Licensing Authority (AACS-LA).



    Although the basic workings of how the system encrypts video content and decrypts it on playback were settled fairly quickly, disagreements have arisen over issues such as the sorts of video outputs AACS-compliant players will be permitted to have and whether they must respect region coding on the discs.



    Among the more contentious issues has been implementation of the ?managed-copy? requirement for AACS-encrypted discs.



    Under rules generally agreed on by the eight members of the consortium, all AACS-encrypted discs must permit users to ?rip? the content to a hard drive under carefully controlled conditions.



    The provision is regarded as essential by Microsoft and Intel, which hope to integrate the new formats into larger digital home networks based on their technology.



    Microsoft, in particular, is keen to include managed-copy capability in Vista, the next generation of its Windows operating system expected to arrive later this year.



    Although the studios have agreed to managed copy in principal, they are concerned that it could become a tool for pirates if not carefully controlled.



    The issue was further complicated when the Blu-ray Disc Assn. agreed last year to adopt an additional layer of copy protection for its discs. Known as BD+, that additional copy protection was being aggressively promoted by 20th Century Fox.



    Although Fox is not a member of AACS, the decision to adopt BD+ split the consortium, which includes members from both camps.



    Microsoft and Intel were concerned that the operation of BD+, which is not under the jurisdiction of AACS-LA, could interfere with consumers? ability to view their high-def discs over a home network.



    Blu-ray companies have strongly disputed those claims, accusing Microsoft of concocting the issue in order to delay completion of the Blu-ray format specs.



    Microsoft has emerged as a strong backer of HD DVD and is locked in a fierce battle with Blu-ray developer Sony for dominance of the next-generation videogame market.



    Sony plans to incorporate Blu-ray technology into its PlayStation 3 game consoles, which will be pitted against Microsoft?s Xbox 360 platform. A delay in approving AACS for Blu-ray could upset Sony?s PlayStation launch plans.



    Microsoft officials declined to comment.



     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 146 of 2106
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,464member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by marzetta7

    Kinda like quoting from Amir at Microsoft, huh.



    I only quote people when they make sense. Hansen's comments were basically cheerleading. Storage space is the only advantage Blu Ray has in terms of longevity over HD DVD and frankly that's superfluous because practical use of high efficiency codecs will only get better lessening the datarate needs.



    The BDA is trying to tell me that I'm actually going to care about BD-Java games, or that quad layer discs are what I really want as a consumer. Huh? I thought I just wanted high quality movies at a decent price.



    The reality is likely that your urban and connected areas will move to downloadable movies using swarm technology within the decade.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 147 of 2106
    marzetta7marzetta7 Posts: 1,323member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison I only quote people when they make sense. Hansen's comments were basically cheerleading. Storage space is the only advantage Blu Ray has in terms of longevity over HD DVD and frankly that's superfluous because practical use of high efficiency codecs will only get better lessening the datarate needs.



    You forgot better quality picture, as I still have not heard plans for HD DVD to be more than 1080i. Blu-ray will be 1080P. You also forgot to mention better durability as HD DVD will have no extra protection provided. HD DVD will have the same protection as current DVDs which means the inevitable scratch will damage a whole lot more data. Moreover, current and/or HD DVD protection is to say the least, very weak. Blu-Ray will have Durabis or Durabis equivalent coatings which have been shown to be more durable. Oh, and you forgot the advantage of Blu-ray having more studio support. But, well, let's just say these may not make much "sense" to you. Furthermore, if we followed your logic of high efficiency codecs becoming better, lessening our datarate needs, then hell, why don't we just stick with DVD since for some reason storage isn't advantage in YOUR mind. Face it, HD DVD is a transitional technology. The HD DVD format is all about how much can the manufacturer save in terms of cost and charge the same initially high prices for discs. If you think somehow HD DVD will be passing any cost savings to the consumer, you are only fooling yourself.

    Quote:

    The BDA is trying to tell me that I'm actually going to care about BD-Java games, or that quad layer discs are what I really want as a consumer. Huh? I thought I just wanted high quality movies at a decent price.



    Your short-sightedness is mind boggling. You probably wanted the iPod to just play music too, huh? You or I don't know what the future will bring in terms of technological advancements, but one thing we do know is that more storage finds its way to always be merited and Blu-ray will provide that future-proof solution. HD DVD does not provide a future-proof solution, and I can easily see it not meeting the technological needs of a next generation HD format in the future for the many reasons we have discussed ad nauseam. By the way, we've already discussed Blu-ray disc pricing in previous posts, and I find their target price to be more than decent, especially when compared to how much DVD initially cost. Are you expecting HD DVD to undercut them? Good luck, because even if they do, Blu-ray will match them seeing how they have the majority of consumer electronics companies, studios, numerous disc replication facilities, etc., etc., etc. I hate when I have to repeat myself, but if it is repetition that will finally cut through the BS/FUD that you put up here regarding Blu-ray, then so be it.

    Quote:

    The reality is likely that your urban and connected areas will move to downloadable movies using swarm technology within the decade.



    Whose reality? Yours? Well anyways, thanks for the reality check. However, you forget the millions who aren't willing to waste the time to download movies in HD quality. Moreover, there are still those people who want something tangible when they purchase something; that is, more specifically, those who will collect movies as they do today. To assume that downloadable movies will somehow completely replace the distribution of movie content on HD-based media such as Blu-ray or HD DVD, especially within this decade, in my opinion is folly. Really, this comment just reasserts my opinion that I think you see the writing on the wall in terms of the HD DVD format (kinda like, "Well even if Blu-ray wins, both will be replaced with online distribution technologies, waaaahhhhh!") Save your backup argument, I say, for the next decade.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 148 of 2106
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    The reality is likely that your urban and connected areas will move to downloadable movies using swarm technology within the decade.



    You forget that a 50GB blu-ray disc on a 3-day FedEx shipment has an equivalent bandwidth of 1.6Mbps. And that's just one disc! If the average period time for a Netflix order is 2 weeks, and they have 1 million subscribers (they actually have more!) the average equivalent bandwidth of the Netflix network is about 350Gbps!



    It's going to be a while before on-demand 1080 HD is a reality.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 149 of 2106
    wmfwmf Posts: 1,164member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by marzetta7

    Ahh, now it appears AACS is now on track. However, it also looks like the first generation players from both HD DVD and Blu-ray will not have Mandatory Managed Copy capability.



    What would a player make a copy onto? Nothing. Only computers and maybe a PS3 with an optional massive hard drive will support managed copy.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 150 of 2106
    bitemymacbitemymac Posts: 1,147member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by wmf

    What would a player make a copy onto? Nothing. Only computers and maybe a PS3 with an optional massive hard drive will support managed copy.



    Even when you can copy to the hard drive, what are you going to do with a copy of BR HD contents on your hard drive if none of the computer at this time is HDCP compliant to play it. Copy now and playback in 6 months later on a Blu-ray Mac or after Vista rolls out which will be about a year from now? You'll need a hard drive farm to store first 20 Blu-ray DVD's. I'm sure the raid-farm will be the next hot market following blu-ray.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 151 of 2106
    remember dell's new moniter is capable of displaying resolutions much higher than 1080p. Also blu-ray...does anyone need that much space??? Devolpers are not going to spend the whole life of the PS3 making one game that fills up an entire disk...its TOO much space in my opinion...just pack in another disk and your fine. One could have multiplayer the other single. Also do you remember the "emotion engine?" It is the proccesor in the PS2. It was supposed to be absolutly amazing...like what a AMD FX-57, or at least thats what sony was marketing it off as. Even if the proccesor turns out amazing, its going to be bottlenecked by its ram. The GPU isn't quite as good as the 360's. Another advantage the 360 has is that all the parts were made to work together. The ps3 just has as good parts as they could find thrown in together. The 360 also has a lot more support, in both devolpers and in hardware/software for it to become a media hub. It will connect to vista seamlessly (or so they say, they will prolly screw it up somehow tho). The price of the PS3 is goign to be high too...if its 500 it sony will probably go bankrupt from it. Also how is 400 at minimum cheaper than the other next-gen systmes...? The revo is going to be below 300 or at it as its highest priced model...sry man the PS3 is screwed this time around.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 152 of 2106
    Quote:

    You forgot better quality picture, as I still have not heard plans for HD DVD to be more than 1080i. Blu-ray will be 1080P.



    Marzetta7 you should know by know that I don't forget things. Both formats store movie data as 1080p/24. What you are referencing is simply the output. Because there are still a relatively small number of 1080p input TVs out there it makes sense that HD DVD is supporting 1080i right now. The ideal situation would be a tv that supports 1080p/48 which would involve very little conversion. Many of the higher end 1080p sets can deinterlace their inputs to give you 1080p anyways. So in reality there are no limitation to either spec (HD DVD or Blu Ray) in this regard.



    Quote:

    You also forgot to mention better durability as HD DVD will have no extra protection provided. HD DVD will have the same protection as current DVDs which means the inevitable scratch will damage a whole lot more data.



    I have plenty of DVDs with the standard .6mm coating and they are scratch free. What you're telling me is that Blu Ray somehow is better here when the data says otherwise. Blu Ray's higher numerical aperture means smaller pits and more data storage. That's problem number 1. The only way they could reliably read the smaller pits is to decrease the distance between the lens assembly and disc problem 2. They still needed that extra wiggle room so they reduced the protection layer by a factor of 6 problem 3. Which leads us to the REQUIREMENT that BD discs have an extra protection coat applied and hence increasing costs. No one outside of the labs knows how well the coating is truly going to work. I'd have a hard time promoting it as an advantage simply because you still only have a .1mm protection layer covering smaller pits. It is Blu Ray that will be susceptible to data damage via scratches if the coating fails.



    Quote:

    Furthermore, if we followed your logic of high efficiency codecs becoming better, lessening our datarate needs, then hell, why don't we just stick with DVD since for some reason storage isn't advantage in YOUR mind. Face it, HD DVD is a transitional technology



    It's not only my logic. In fact HD DVD was "orginally" proposed to be on Red Laser DVD because of the HE Codecs. They could have done it as well by giving us bare bones discs but Hollywood wants to be able to sell with a bit more sizzle. Take the oldest DVD disc from your collection and compare it to a new disc of note qualitatively speaking. Check their bitrates...I have discs in my collection that avg 6-8Mbs that crush the older discs that have an avg that is higher. I believe that both HD DVD and Blu Ray are transitional. There's nothing in Blu Ray that will allow it to survive much longer than HD DVD. Again the extra storage means nothing because with VC-1 and AVC both formats have enough space for %95 of all movies.



    Quote:

    but one thing we do know is that more storage finds its way to always be merited and Blu-ray will provide that future-proof solution. HD DVD does not provide a future-proof solution, and I can easily see it not meeting the technological needs of a next generation HD format in the future for the many reasons we have discussed ad nauseam.



    Sure you can improve the specification of both formats slightly but radical changes aren't going to happen because once you have millions of legacy players you have to ensure support for them. Thus I don't know what future features people are trying to conjecture about and frankly neither do they because they seem to lack any specificity on just what features could be enabled. The formats are primarily a video content distribution mechanism. Trying to turn them into anything more is simply going to muddle things up.



    Quote:

    because even if they do, Blu-ray will match them seeing how they have the majority of consumer electronics companies, studios, numerous disc replication facilities, etc., etc., etc. I hate when I have to repeat myself, but if it is repetition that will finally cut through the BS/FUD that you put up here regarding Blu-ray, then so be it.



    Other than Sony's plants there are precious few replication plants. Not everyone is going to be subsidized on Blu Ray production. Smaller studios get nothing. Initially the pricing of HD DVD and Blu Ray should be the same. I've always known this because Sony has guaranteed the larger studios a target price. Studio and hardware will change over time. China still hasn't played her HD DVD hand and there will be more surprises coming.



    Quote:

    Really, this comment just reasserts my opinion that I think you see the writing on the wall in terms of the HD DVD format



    No. I'm most definitely talking about both formats. I actually think my Comcast On Demand is pretty cool and I don't hesitate to use it when I can although it is in SD. So as we write this people are already being trained to used On Demand content making the leap to HD very simple. When you look at Fibre to the Premise and DOCSIS 3 offering the potential for huge speeds you will find that the need to own that plastic disc will wane a bit. Look at DVD sales...they're already declining in the face of Netflix, On Demand and DVR's. I don't expect HD to reverse this trend that much..there will be a spike in sales for a few years and then a leveling out and decline going into the latter half of the format's first decade.



    When I look at HD DVD and Blu Ray and read Hansen say BD is developed for 15 yrs I just laugh. Perhaps it could have lasted that long pre-Internet but the next 15 years will dwarf the accomplishments of the last 15. We are truly entering a new age of power and networking and I'm not sure these guys really understand fully the impact and changes they will see.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 153 of 2106
    mellomello Posts: 555member
    Do you think that Sony will release PS3 games & movies on the same

    blu-ray disc (example: Spiderman 3 movie bundled with the the next

    Spidey PS3 game.)



    I read somewhere that Oblivion for the Xbox 360 takes up less than

    5 gigs of space on a DVD even though there is 16 square miles of areas

    plus 200+ hours of gameplay.



    There should be plenty of room on these 50gig discs plus I wouldn't

    mind the price break of buying them both simultaneously.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 154 of 2106
    yah they could bundle it together, but to take up that much space they would need like all three spidey movies, and all the games ever made...probably still wouldn't take up all that space!
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 155 of 2106
    cakecake Posts: 1,010member
    I'm not sure about bundling games and films, but Sony will include 2-4 Blu-ray discs in the box when you buy a PS3.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 156 of 2106
    mellomello Posts: 555member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Cake

    I'm not sure about bundling games and films, but Sony will include 2-4 Blu-ray discs in the box when you buy a PS3.



    Do you have a link to where you read this at? This is the first I've heard

    about Sony shipping Blu-ray discs with the PS3.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 157 of 2106
    cakecake Posts: 1,010member
    It's a natural move and one they did with the launch of the PSP by including Spider-Man 2 on UMD.



    The information comes from friends that I know within Sony.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 158 of 2106
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    Marzetta7 you should know by know that I don't forget things. Both formats store movie data as 1080p/24. What you are referencing is simply the output. Because there are still a relatively small number of 1080p input TVs out there it makes sense that HD DVD is supporting 1080i right now. The ideal situation would be a tv that supports 1080p/48 which would involve very little conversion. Many of the higher end 1080p sets can deinterlace their inputs to give you 1080p anyways. So in reality there are no limitation to either spec (HD DVD or Blu Ray) in this regard.



    Good, then you'll remember when HD DVD goes down in flames. I know full well both HD DVD and Blu-ray store in 1080P, but what does it say about a format who will sell its consumers a piece of hardware with less capability and then want those same consumers to fork over another $500-$1000 for another player that will finally have 1080P output? I thought consumers were supposed to save $$$ with HD DVD, or so they (HD DVD group) want you to think. I guess it goes along the same lines as Microsoft with their Xbox. They want you to purchase the 360 with a regular old DVD drive in it, and then fork over more cash later for a possible external HD DVD drive as an add-on. Me, I'll just practice some patience and get it right the first time by paying for a Blu-ray player, without any unnecessary add-ons, or less-featured capabilities.



    Quote:

    I have plenty of DVDs with the standard .6mm coating and they are scratch free. What you're telling me is that Blu Ray somehow is better here when the data says otherwise. Blu Ray's higher numerical aperture means smaller pits and more data storage. That's problem number 1. The only way they could reliably read the smaller pits is to decrease the distance between the lens assembly and disc problem 2. They still needed that extra wiggle room so they reduced the protection layer by a factor of 6 problem 3. Which leads us to the REQUIREMENT that BD discs have an extra protection coat applied and hence increasing costs. No one outside of the labs knows how well the coating is truly going to work. I'd have a hard time promoting it as an advantage simply because you still only have a .1mm protection layer covering smaller pits. It is Blu Ray that will be susceptible to data damage via scratches if the coating fails.



    Hehehehe. The "data says otherwise." The "data" you just provided us were engineering steps that make Blu-ray superior. Nice spin though, trying to claim them as "problems" with numbers and all. You ought to go work for MS public relations department with spin like that. Anyhow, you should have used verbage like...



    Engineering Step 1: Blu Ray's higher numerical aperture means smaller pits and more data storage.

    Engineering Step 2: Due to Blu-Ray's higher numerical aperture, the distance between the lens assembly and the disc is decreased.

    Engineering Step 3: Data is closer to the surface of the bare disc, for better stability and reliability.

    Engineering Step 4: Application of protective layer to ensure data integrity.



    A good example of the engineering that goes into a Blu-ray disc would look like this...







    It is one thing to give us "data" posed as problems hmurchison, and its another when you actually have the application of this data. That is, more specifically, the application of attempting to scratch, smudge, or otherwise thwart a player from playing a disc. I've already given you and others a look at the confirmed application of the durability of Blu-ray discs, but seeing in how you don't forget anything, here it is again anyways,



    http://news.com.com/Try+scratching+t...ml?tag=st.prev



    or here,



    http://www.cdfreaks.com/news2.php?ID=10929



    Now let's look at the application of tests above to a so called HD DVD disc...oh, you probably don't want to know the results of that, as it'll be scratched to hell since HD DVD, again, will NOT be using any other protection other than what is used today with current DVDs--which is crap.



    "I have plenty of DVDs with the standard .6mm coating and they are scratch free." -- You must not have any kids, and if you do, you do a heck of a job keeping your DVDs away from prying hands. IMHO, Blu-ray disc-type protection is a must in the next generation format and to put it bluntly, HD DVD does not have it.



    Quote:

    It's not only my logic. In fact HD DVD was "orginally" proposed to be on Red Laser DVD because of the HE Codecs. They could have done it as well by giving us bare bones discs but Hollywood wants to be able to sell with a bit more sizzle. Take the oldest DVD disc from your collection and compare it to a new disc of note qualitatively speaking. Check their bitrates...I have discs in my collection that avg 6-8Mbs that crush the older discs that have an avg that is higher. I believe that both HD DVD and Blu Ray are transitional. There's nothing in Blu Ray that will allow it to survive much longer than HD DVD. Again the extra storage means nothing because with VC-1 and AVC both formats have enough space for %95 of all movies.



    Sure you can improve the specification of both formats slightly but radical changes aren't going to happen because once you have millions of legacy players you have to ensure support for them. Thus I don't know what future features people are trying to conjecture about and frankly neither do they because they seem to lack any specificity on just what features could be enabled. The formats are primarily a video content distribution mechanism. Trying to turn them into anything more is simply going to muddle things up.



    And those who had originally proposed HD DVD on red laser discs are the same who would getting DVD (red laser) licensing kickbacks. It wasn't because HE codecs would allow so much more room on th 4-9 GB discs to accomodate HD content properly. And please, Hollywood didn't want to go with this logic because of piracy concerns, not because they wanted something with more sizzle (OK, maybe it was a tincy bit of sizzle since Blu-ray does kick HD DVD to the curb and all). Furthermore, it is precisely the storage and durability advantages that will make Blu-ray out-live HD DVD. Technology doesn't live in a vacuum, and studios will come up with things like HD interactive games, HD audio enhancements, HD video enhancements, HD extras, HD movie consolidation, networking software, and other things we may not even think about that will of course require...yep you got it, more storage. And, I'm pretty sure that is what the studios see when they look at the two formats and why the majority of studios and consumer electronics companies (80% marketshare) are going with Blu-ray. The only things getting muddled up is your agrument that storage, doesn't matter. You sound like those who didn't think we would be using gigs of memory today.

    Quote:

    Other than Sony's plants there are precious few replication plants. Not everyone is going to be subsidized on Blu Ray production. Smaller studios get nothing. Initially the pricing of HD DVD and Blu Ray should be the same. I've always known this because Sony has guaranteed the larger studios a target price. Studio and hardware will change over time. China still hasn't played her HD DVD hand and there will be more surprises coming.



    No. I'm most definitely talking about both formats. I actually think my Comcast On Demand is pretty cool and I don't hesitate to use it when I can although it is in SD. So as we write this people are already being trained to used On Demand content making the leap to HD very simple. When you look at Fibre to the Premise and DOCSIS 3 offering the potential for huge speeds you will find that the need to own that plastic disc will wane a bit. Look at DVD sales...they're already declining in the face of Netflix, On Demand and DVR's. I don't expect HD to reverse this trend that much..there will be a spike in sales for a few years and then a leveling out and decline going into the latter half of the format's first decade.



    When I look at HD DVD and Blu Ray and read Hansen say BD is developed for 15 yrs I just laugh. Perhaps it could have lasted that long pre-Internet but the next 15 years will dwarf the accomplishments of the last 15. We are truly entering a new age of power and networking and I'm not sure these guys really understand fully the impact and changes they will see.



    Pure crap. Explain to me how 80% of the consumer electonics industry, and the majority of Hollywood studios (including porn studios) all support Blu-ray, but have only "precious few replication plants." Does that sound a bit odd to anyone else? I'm calling BS. Moreover, I got a kick out of this one...



    "Initially the pricing of HD DVD and Blu Ray should be the same. I've always known this because Sony has guaranteed the larger studios a target price."



    If you knew that the pricing of HD DVD and Blu-ray would be the same, then why have you been hitting these boards claiming how Blu-ray is going to be more expensive and going to screw the consumer, blah, blah, blah? Anyways, regarding your statement concerning online HD content, you claimed that...



    "The reality is likely that your urban and connected areas will move to downloadable movies using swarm technology within the decade."



    I have a problem with your timelines as you stated above that Blu-ray and HD DVD would be eclipsed by online distribution within the decade, that is before 2010 in my mind. However, in the previous quote you mention that you expect HD to wane in the latter half of the format's decade which would be like 2016-2017. So which is it? In my opinion, there very well may be online distribution in the future, but I don't think before Blu-ray will get its foothold in the HD market as the standard.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 159 of 2106
    Quote:

    but what does it say about a format who will sell its consumers a piece of hardware with less capability and then want those same consumers to fork over another $500-$1000 for another player that will finally have 1080P output?



    Most consumers don't even have DVI/HDMI HDCP enabled HDTV sets. Whining about 1080i vs 1080p seems rather silly. By the time 1080p is a "must have" the players will be $200. Again with deinterlacing features included in the inputs of tvs this a beating the dead horse territory.



    Quote:

    A good example of the engineering that goes into a Blu-ray disc would look like this.



    cute pic. Please note that Quad layer discs are NOT part of the Blu Ray spec and the PS3 or whatever BD player you purchase this year will NOT support them.



    regarding coatings



    DVD-Rs coated with TDK's novel polymer, billed as armor plated with UV protection, currently cost $5.99 each. That's significantly more



    Hey weren't you just complaining about the extra costs incurred by HD DVD?



    Quote:

    And those who had originally proposed HD DVD on red laser discs are the same who would getting DVD (red laser) licensing kickbacks. It wasn't because HE codecs would allow so much more room on th 4-9 GB discs to accomodate HD content properly.



    Puhleeeze. You can't do HD in MPEG2 at rates lower than 17Mbps which is why ATSC is 19.4. HE Codecs do in fact matter here. Regarding kickbacks both sides have vested interests in the formats or they wouldn't be fighting to win.



    Quote:

    And please, Hollywood didn't want to go with this logic because of piracy concerns,



    Wouldn't make a difference. Just because you use Red Laser doesn't mean that the DRM could not have been added. By utilizing Red Laser the format wouldn't have become DVD by default.



    Quote:

    Furthermore, it is precisely the storage and durability advantages that will make Blu-ray out-live HD DVD. Technology doesn't live in a vacuum, and studios will come up with things like HD interactive games, HD audio enhancements, HD video enhancements, HD extras, HD movie consolidation, networking software, and other things we may not even think about that will of course require...yep you got it, more storage. And, I'm pretty sure that is what the studios see



    I don't see consumers screaming for java games. I don't see them screaming for lossless audio. Some like extras but many will admit they may watch them once and that's it. What they want is to put the disc in a player and watch the movie. The audio and video capabilities of both formats are virtually locked in. They won't be able to add new codecs without destroying backwards compatibility.



    Again I will say that HD DVD proponents and Blu Ray proponents seem to divide along technology lines.



    The typical HD DVD user just wants high quality audio and video for the best price.



    The typical Blu Ray user wants a technical tour de force. Of course it won't deliver better quality than HD DVD but hey it's sure fun to brag out spincoats and 50GB discs.





    I have nothing truly bad to say about BD other than it's perhaps a bit too ambitious. I don't need interactive games...I need good A/V.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 160 of 2106
    I think you guys need to chill. It's the same argument over and over. I don't think anyone will be able to convince murch to drop HD-DVD. Let's say HD-DVD flops miserably: murch will still own an HD-DVD and be verbal in his complaints about how there's a dearth of HD-DVD media. If Blu-ray flops, everyone on that side of the argument will just say "fuck-it" and buy an HD-DVD.



    I don't mean to be an ass, but the Blu-ray crowd is just so much more logical in their position, since their argument is more objective. People want Blu-ray to "win" because it will provide a better user experience for the time being and for years to come. This is certain. HD-DVD will not provide a better user experience. The picture and sound will not be as good, and it will not offer as much programmability. We know this to be true. Blu-ray also has made efforts to try to improve disc durability, which will more than likely help to some degree. The argument for HD-DVD is not nearly as direct. Everything is an assumption based on another assumption. If Blu-ray comes out en masse, and it's the same price (or less) than HD-DVD, then all those assumptions amount to nothing.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
Sign In or Register to comment.