but the Blu-ray crowd is just so much more logical in their position, since their argument is more objective. People want Blu-ray to "win" because it will provide a better user experience for the time being and for years to come.
I think this is actually counter to the truth. If both formats can hold %95 of todays feature length films then I find it rather illogical that I should somehow pine for more storage. Even Blu Ray Disney supported iHD as their interactivity layer of choice over Java as well as Apple. Sony may ship 1st generation movies in MPEG2 on Single Layer discs (with a few releases on DL). Thus as a person who is reasonably informed about both formats I will rebuke the claims that Blu Ray's featureset gives them a substantive advantage qualitatively. Not from spite but simply from the reality that if the codecs are the same down to audio.
I'll own both formats and whoever wins out will be chosen by the people hopefully.
I think this is actually counter to the truth. If both formats can hold %95 of todays feature length films then I find it rather illogical that I should somehow pine for more storage.
Again, you are assuming that nothing will change and also that everyone else is like you. Who knows what creative uses there are for the extra space? (other than supporting the other 5% of feature films) Having more than enough is what propmts developers to get creative. Having just enough or less than enough *forces* engineers to get creative.
If both formats can hold %95 of todays feature length films then I find it rather illogical that I should somehow pine for more storage.
When a company begins the process of figuring out what to include on a DVD, what it all comes down to is something called the Bit Budget.
There are many added value extras, alternate versions, additional DTS streams and even languages that get dropped from a title because there isn't enough room in the Bit Budget.
If we had more capacity today, we'd see much different discs than the ones being released.
I dunno. The moment I look at that picture, my mind says "Bang & Olufsen." With all due respect to B&O, they're all show and very little go. Very pretty, but very expensive and not very well designed in terms of function.
If Dell are going to put Blu-Ray into all their PC's then Microsoft don't really have a choice.
Dell, Apple and all Playstations in the world are going to have Blu-Ray. That's a guaranteed user base of a few hundred million before selling a single stand alone Blu-Ray player.
HD-DVD is the computing equivalent of Monty Pythons Dead Parrot.
I just came back from the HD-XA1 demo at the PC Richards in NYC. I came into the demo with mixed opinions because I have not always liked Toshiba products, but this experience changed my perspective.
Some of the movies off of the HD-DVD player were so-so, i.e. 40 yr old virgin. But Dukes of Hazard and especially KING KONG blew me away. There was such crystal clear realism. Loved it. This player was truley a step in the right direction in my opinion.
Best of all, I walked away with a free Toshiba HD-DVD pen. That sold me.
PC Richards is taking pre-orders so I may call them up later.
The only thing that I was wondering was when these HD-DVD players do come out, the Advanced Navigation wont be available just yet, i.e. Enhanced Menu, Fast search. you will need a firmware upgrade. Is this true?
Just as I thought. Both formats will indeed look great. I'm stoked but I think I'll hold out until second generation HD DVD and wait for any kinks in the PS3 to be worked out. I'll focus on getting a capable 50-55 inch screen.
Again, you are assuming that nothing will change and also that everyone else is like you. Who knows what creative uses there are for the extra space? (other than supporting the other 5% of feature films) Having more than enough is what propmts developers to get creative. Having just enough or less than enough *forces* engineers to get creative.
Agreed. Not to mention that TV shows are now selling like hotcakes on DVD. The more individual shows you can fit onto a single disc the better. This means less total discs which equals less cost, less hastle and smaller packaging. Plus, for computing uses, dont tell me you couldnt use an extra 10GB of space for backups!
Before the Blu-ray association decided to support AVC (h.264) I was leaning toward favoring HD-DVD, as you could theoretically hold more video content on a single disc. Plus, there are manufacturing advantages to HD-DVD, which in the end could mean HD-DVDs are cheaper than Blu-ray (at least cost to the content providers, marketing strategies will ultimately dictate pricing). But now that AVC is supported on Blu-ray, I am leaning in that direction.
Regardless, I dont plan on purchasing either player until one of them dies. I am not going to plop down hundreds of dollars for a player and movies that may one day be defunct. I think many consumers will have similar feelings.
The truth of the matter is that this war could go on for quite some time. The first DVD players in 1997 (or was it 96?) didnt take off to a stellar start. And it wasnt until about Christmas 2000 that DVD sales overtook VHS sales, thats almost 4 years. On top of that, there will certainly be market confusion between standard DVDs and HD-DVDs and Blu-ray. Remember, DVDs were easily distinguished from VHS tapes. There will be less descernment between the next-gen DVDs and current ones. I think many people will ask "This one costs less and it looks good anyway, so why should I pay the extra money for a similar product?" This is similar to the HDTV situation, and it has certainly taken some time (and pricing reductions) for consumers to buy into the HD craze.
At any rate, I am not looking forward to this problem. I can only hope I am wrong, and one of the two dies and quick and painless death...
BTW, I havent read about the differences in interactivity capabilities between Blu-ray and HD-DVD. Anyone have any good links?
Agreed. Not to mention that TV shows are now selling like hotcakes on DVD. The more individual shows you can fit onto a single disc the better. This means less total discs which equals less cost, less hastle and smaller packaging. Plus, for computing uses, dont tell me you couldnt use an extra 10GB of space for backups!
Before the Blu-ray association decided to support AVC (h.264) I was leaning toward favoring HD-DVD, as you could theoretically hold more video content on a single disc. Plus, there are manufacturing advantages to HD-DVD, which in the end could mean HD-DVDs are cheaper than Blu-ray (at least cost to the content providers, marketing strategies will ultimately dictate pricing). But now that AVC is supported on Blu-ray, I am leaning in that direction.
Regardless, I dont plan on purchasing either player until one of them dies. I am not going to plop down hundreds of dollars for a player and movies that may one day be defunct. I think many consumers will have similar feelings.
The truth of the matter is that this war could go on for quite some time. The first DVD players in 1997 (or was it 96?) didnt take off to a stellar start. And it wasnt until about Christmas 2000 that DVD sales overtook VHS sales, thats almost 4 years. On top of that, there will certainly be market confusion between standard DVDs and HD-DVDs and Blu-ray. Remember, DVDs were easily distinguished from VHS tapes. There will be less descernment between the next-gen DVDs and current ones. I think many people will ask "This one costs less and it looks good anyway, so why should I pay the extra money for a similar product?" This is similar to the HDTV situation, and it has certainly taken some time (and pricing reductions) for consumers to buy into the HD craze.
At any rate, I am not looking forward to this problem. I can only hope I am wrong, and one of the two dies and quick and painless death...
BTW, I havent read about the differences in interactivity capabilities between Blu-ray and HD-DVD. Anyone have any good links?
Totally agree with your logic pertaining to TV shows and the like that would be more convenient when consolidation was implemented by using a medium that has more storage like the Blu-ray disc. Also, can't agree with you more about the capabilities for backup with Blu-ray.
Here is a link about the interactive capabilities or either format. Blu-ray will be using BD-J (Java) and HD DVD will be using iHD (XML based and developed by Microsoft)...
The Blu-Ray versus HD-DVD war is spilling over into nearby fields, including Java, thanks to the fact that Blu-Ray uses Java to provide its interactive features. Consider the following quote from an article from EE Times, in which HP's general manager for personal storage says HP compared Blu-Ray Java to the Microsoft-created iHD interactive standard in the HD-DVD and "found Java in Blu-ray was much more mature and robust with complete test suites. In contrast, we found many holes in Microsoft's proprietary iHD."
Then tell me how it is that last week, HP called for Blu-Ray to adopt iHD?
If you want to stop here for a quick recap, a good source for information on the Java spec for Blu-Ray, BD-J, is the JavaOne 2005 session "Java Technology Goes to the Movies: Java Technology in Next- Generation Optical Disc Formats", which is available from JavaOne Online. BD-J is a J2ME Personal Basis Profile with API's borrowed from interactive television (DVB with the broadcast stuff taken out), HAVI (for a consumer electronics oriented GUI), plus the previously-moribund JavaTV API (for the concept of an Xlet) and Java Media Framework (for reasons unstated... perhaps pity). The resulting platform claims to offer deep programmability, including layering of graphics, video, and background, synchronization with video (either in a tight frame-accurate style or a looser callback scheme), and more.
Details on iHD have been somewhat harder to come by. I did find a general description in the article HP requests feature additions to Blu-ray disc technology, in which Microsoft's director of technology strategy for Windows Digital Media says the idea behind iHD is to "use Web-like tools such as XML, and that would make it very easy for a creative person that did not need to be a software programmer, to be able to create interactivity menus and applications for optical media," adding "the vast majority of studios prefer iHD over BDJ, because it's easier to author, you can have your creative people involved, it's cheaper, [and] it's got all these benefits."
OK, seriously, we're still comparing markup and executable languages? This is like saying that HTML is better than C because it's easier.
Oh, I know, context: easier for the content developer. No kidding. As the JavaOne session says: "Most content will probably be written with high-level tools" and that "opportunities exist in tool building". Clearly, the expectation is that simple markup environments can and will be written on top of BD-J, quite possibly including iHD, but the fact that the standard is the executable allows these environments to compete, and doesn't close the door on functionality advancements. The interactivity can get better as developers discover new ways to exploit BD-J. Plus, nobody's writing "bonus" games for the kids with a markup language, at least not one that will be interesting for more than two minutes.
The big picture is that this remains a consumer electronics versus PC's battle and the consumer electronics side is winning. Forrester says Blu-Ray will win, and Warner Bros adopted Blu-Ray and joined its board last week. Blu-ray certainly has immense advantages, not the least of which is the fact that it will be on the PlayStation 3, set to launch early next year. The PS3 makes the scenario more interesting by including internet connectivity as standard equipment -- internet connectivity is part of the BD-J spec, and if Sony's implementation chooses to implement it, then there are tremendous opportunities for fundamentally new kinds of content, with material available and updated even after the disc is stamped and sold, to say nothing of e-commerce plays (every movie can have its own online store, accessed from the disc).
A particular bullet of interest in the article above...
Quote:
? Interactivity: Blu-ray disc is built on BD-Java, which leverages years of industry investment and experience in the set-top box, PC, and cell phone industries. BD-JavaTM provides a mature, robust platform for authoring and delivering unprecedented interactive capabilities to the user for movies, music, and games. BD-Java was selected over iHD, the developmental Microsoft technology used in HD-DVD. The BDA carefully compared both iHD and BD-J, and concluded that iHD didn't go far enough in providing a compelling feature set beyond DVD, while BD-J offered studios a much richer palette for providing a compelling interactive HD experience for consumers, particularly when a player is connected to a network.
Also, in the above link a interesting quote by Weber before HP was forced by Microsoft (somehow) to also support HD DVD too...
Quote:
"From a PC end-user perspective, Blu-ray is a superior format. It offers 67-150% more storage capacity, higher transfer rates, slim-line notebook compatibility, broadband connectivity and a proven interactive layer with BD- Java," said Maureen Weber, General Manager of Hewlett Packard's Personal Storage Business in the press release. "The technical merits and consumer benefits of Blu-ray Disc make it the ideal solution for HP's customers."
And finally, the five reasons why Blu-ray will win the format war...
Also, can't agree with you more about the capabilities for backup with Blu-ray.
Which means clearly you haven't a clue about the current trends in backup. Hint, neither HD DVD or Blu Ray have much of a chance outside of the basic home user. Today people want Continuous Protection which is generally being back up to a HDD based storage device and then archived to tape which holds 320GB for $40-50 and is faster than both formats. BD isn't even in the ballpark regarding cost/gigabyte and won't be for some time.
Quoting articles from Oct of last year is a bit silly. Adam really didn't delve into anything substantive. iHD is going to be native in Vista. Java will not. iHD doesn't require recompiles...Java does. iHD is XML based with nice synchonization features. iHD supported PiP before the BDA rushed to add it later to the spec. There is very little debugging needed in iHD as well because it's not a programming language. What's the hottest web interactivity format right now? AJAX...javascript combined with XML. iHD is far closer to a nice lightweight tool like AJAX than Java will ever be.
LOL
You keep posting marketing drivel as though that's something special. I'm not even sure you really understand the Pros and Cons Marzetta7. Try and find your own voice a bit more.
Today I will be going to the Video Only in Tukwila WA. They have the HD DVD player setup and playing trailers from King Kong and others. I hear KK is phenomenal in quality. Maybe I can find the bitrate of the better looking trailers and report back.
Let me once again reiterate my feelings on the formats.
I'm an HD DVD proponent because I believe it has the ability to give me the best cost/performance ratio.
I will STILL be a Blu Ray purchaser(PS3)
I argue strongly for HD DVD because I'm a movie lover who just wants to watch high quality movies. I don't care about gaming on my player. I don't care about how many player models are on the format. I don't get caught up in pipe dreams about quad layers and backup capabilities.
I simply want a low cost HD playback system that doesn't cost me an undue amount of money. HD DVD is who i've hitched my hopes to but whatever format that wins ..has earned it in my book.
[B]Which means clearly you haven't a clue about the current trends in backup. Hint, neither HD DVD or Blu Ray have much of a chance outside of the basic home user. Today people want Continuous Protection which is generally being back up to a HDD based storage device and then archived to tape which holds 320GB for $40-50 and is faster than both formats. BD isn't even in the ballpark regarding cost/gigabyte and won't be for some time.
Yawwwwn. Oh, were you saying something I haven't heard already from you...? Ignoring certain markets, that is the home user market, doesn't strengthen your argument one bit. Did you see me mention the business market as pertains to backup at all? Nope, sure didn't. I know quite well that what you state here is the norm for business, but as a home user, Blu-ray will be a definite viable backup medium. Blu-ray may even find itself viable in small businesses, as it pertains to a backup medium.
Quote:
Quoting articles from Oct of last year is a bit silly. Adam really didn't delve into anything substantive. iHD is going to be native in Vista. Java will not. iHD doesn't require recompiles...Java does. iHD is XML based with nice synchonization features. iHD supported PiP before the BDA rushed to add it later to the spec. There is very little debugging needed in iHD as well because it's not a programming language. What's the hottest web interactivity format right now? AJAX...javascript combined with XML. iHD is far closer to a nice lightweight tool like AJAX than Java will ever be.
LOL
You keep posting marketing drivel as though that's something special. I'm not even sure you really understand the Pros and Cons Marzetta7. Try and find your own voice a bit more.
That's because I'm just downright silly. Honestly, if you want to be completely accurate, there isn't much to go off on for either interactivity software that delves into anything substantial, BD-J or iHD. So, finding an article that happens to be written back in October (only like 3 months ago) somehow doesn't apply and is deemed silly by you? Whatever. Our friend here asked about interactivity software, so I gave him some information on it. Should I've consulted Amir over at Microsoft for his FUD on BD-J?
Who cares if Java requires recompiles? Doesn't make it any less useful or technologically inferior. Regarding pros and cons, I've programmed in Java, have you? Moreover, I've also written many a file with XML and understand how it works and forsee myself writing more of it once Vista rolls out as many OS configurations will be solely in XML. Furthermore, just because iHD is native in Vista doesn't mean we have to bring Microsoft's crap into our living room experience. You make it sound as if anything Microsoft blesses or deems worthy must go into our future HD format. No thanks.
Yes, iHD is XML based, and XML needs an interpreter/engine to process and/or define the XML's custom tags. What is the XML engine built from? Not XML,...but most likely from C# or .NET. It will be proprietary to Micorosoft, you won't be able to change it, and you won't have much flexiblity in deciding what parts of the XML you can use and can't and how you can implement them and can't as this will be Microsoft's call. It is their software, and not to mention, when was the last time Microsoft was 100% compliant in terms of web-based technology? See where I'm getting at?
Java makes much more sense in that it is much more flexible from a programming standpoint, and is already being used out in the electronics industry for cell phones and other devices. Cost? Will iHD be cheaper to use? I strongly doubt it since I haven't really seen Microsoft historically lower their prices once given a majority in a market. I can see them charging significant fees if they were to have iHD implemented on the next format.
So, in summary, I don't see any added benefits iHD can possibly offer in terms of flexibility, speed (in terms of processing, not in the creation of menus, etc.), functionality, or cost (sure they're marketing it as cheaper now, but if they get it implemented, will it continue to be cheaper?). I think clearly Java is the better decision, but for MS fanboys, probably not.
Quote:
Today I will be going to the Video Only in Tukwila WA. They have the HD DVD player setup and playing trailers from King Kong and others. I hear KK is phenomenal in quality. Maybe I can find the bitrate of the better looking trailers and report back.
Let me once again reiterate my feelings on the formats.
I'm an HD DVD proponent because I believe it has the ability to give me the best cost/performance ratio.
I will STILL be a Blu Ray purchaser(PS3)
I argue strongly for HD DVD because I'm a movie lover who just wants to watch high quality movies. I don't care about gaming on my player. I don't care about how many player models are on the format. I don't get caught up in pipe dreams about quad layers and backup capabilities.
I simply want a low cost HD playback system that doesn't cost me an undue amount of money. HD DVD is who i've hitched my hopes to but whatever format that wins ..has earned it in my book.
TTFN
Spoken like a true man cognisant that HD DVD is DOA, yet not willing to admit it, and giving himself an out when it does fail. Pipe dreams? There's that word again you like to use. How you use the word "pipe dream" to describe quad layered discs when manufacturers like TDK have already showcased 100GB discs back in January is just strange.
I think we all want a low cost HD playback system that doesn't cost an undue amount of money, and we'll get it with Blu-ray as economies of scale will provide this shortly. You base your cost argument for formats that have just been released, and we all know new technology is initially more expensive. HD DVD is currently cheaper, as they are desperate, and realize that the economies of scale and a superior format are against them.
I recommend you find your own voice, a voice of reason based on logic and not "feelings" as you so eloquently noted above. In the meantime, enjoy the HD DVD rollout while it lasts. Heck, even pickup a HD DVD player, I'm sure it will make a good paper weight in the future.
Blu-ray may even find itself viable in small businesses, as it pertains to a backup medium.
It may but the chances are highly unlikely. Just being honest. It offers nothing special in storage capacity or speed compared to what we have now.
No I haven't programmed Java and frankly don't want to for menu creation. iHD is obviously enticing to more companies than just Microsoft. Disney is a co-creator and Apple supported iHD. HP switched their stance on iHD as well after learning more. Never met a phone interface I thought was truly special. Looking for better things from iHD or other XML based markup.
Quad layer discs aren't part of the BD-ROM spec so it's strictly a "Lab creation" right now that hasn't been mass produced.
Sony is subsidizing production costs or you'd see a difference in media costs. What happens when the subsidy is gone? I've chosen the best format for me. If others disagree that's fine we all are going to make our own decision. It's just when I see the hubris of some people I speak out against it. Not you in particular Marzetta7 but some others.
iHD is going to be native in Vista. Java will not.
That's not saying much. Java isn't native in any version of Windows, yet it has done pretty well so far. Even without Microsoft's support, it's on nearly every system I've ever worked with. On the other hand, there are plenty of things native in Windows that are inferior technology and haven't done well despite Microsoft's backing.
Quote:
I will STILL be a Blu Ray purchaser(PS3)
(snip)
I simply want a low cost HD playback system that doesn't cost me an undue amount of money.
Sounds like an interesting contradiction to me. You want the cheapest system but you'll buy them both, which in my eye would cost more.
It?s really interesting reading the posts from murch and marzetta to see how many different ways they can say the same thing over and over again.
Someone, marzetta?, said that DVD sales are declining. If that statement is true it?s not because DVDs are no longer the flavor of the month; it?s because those people who buy DVDs have matured their collection and are only buying new releases that catch their fancy or some gem that has somehow escaped from deep within a media company?s vault. Disney?where?s Song of the South?
I can really see media companies shooting themselves in the foot when HD/BR discs are released by charging a premium and keeping prices artificially high like they did with CDs for so long. This is especially true if new releases are a combo HD/regular DVD. If that happens my DVD buying days are over and I?ll restart my Netflix membership.
I?m still unsure in my own mind whether HD/BR will have enough of a wow factor to convince the Walmart consumer to part with their money for new equipment and discs or whether it will be a niche product like laserdiscs were during the VHS days. Right now I?m leaning towards the latter, at least for the next 3-4 years. There?s a real potential here for some media and manufacturing companies to bleed a bunch of red ink.
Murch, I believe, mentioned highspeed downloads and fiber optics as a movie delivery method. Come on, get real. How many people think that fiber optics to your doorstep will be a reality in the next 10-years except to a few certain select areas. And getting movies on demand from Comcast, one of the most hated companies in America, one who raises rates every year for non-existent ?improvements in service?? Oh, boy!
From what little I know about the competing standards, I much prefer Blu-Ray, primarily for the increased storage. As a home user I back up my computer to an external hard drive, but I also burn my data files to DVD for off-site storage. The extra capacity of Blu-Ray is very attractive for this purpose. So what if it?s slow, start it copying when you go to bed and let it chug away overnight. A BR read/write machine, at a $400-500 price point, would be great as part of my home entertainment system to archive those programs in HD that I record to my HD set top DVR. Another sore point with me is that even though all but the cheapest receivers come with 7.1 capability, present day DVDs usually have DD 5.1 or, if you?re lucky, DTS 5.1. I can think of only one disc in my collection that breaks this mold, Gladiator, which is DTS 6.1. The added capacity of BR should allow for both better sound and more special features.
It?ll be interesting to see how this all plays out in the coming months.
Blu-ray drives cost up to 75 percent more than HD-DVD drives, according to Maureen Weber, the general manager of the personal storage group at Hewlett-Packard and a former spokeswoman for the Blu-ray coalition. "There's not a lot of elbow room," she said of the thin profit margins on computers. "The economics of HD-DVD make a lot more sense for us. I'm starting to wonder about the manufacturing ability of Blu-ray."
Doesn't sound like Amir to me.
This was one of the better articles out there. It seems neither pro BD or HD-DVD. Looking forward to the HD DVD tour hitting Washington on March 8th so that I can see more.
I don't know. It seems the article really makes it sound like Blu-ray has taken a major hit because "the needed technology was still being worked out." From everything I've seen, it's AACS that needs to be worked out, and any AACS delay affects HD-DVD as well as Blu-ray. If AACS is not yet finalized right now, it's highly doubtful that Toshiba can get their first players onto shelves in March (which begins only two days from now). Maybe the AACS delay may work in Blu-ray's favor. They have time to work out these supposed bugs while Toshiba's "first to market" advantage evaporates. Of course, the longer Sony holds back PS3, the bigger toehold Xbox 360 gets.
Comments
but the Blu-ray crowd is just so much more logical in their position, since their argument is more objective. People want Blu-ray to "win" because it will provide a better user experience for the time being and for years to come.
I think this is actually counter to the truth. If both formats can hold %95 of todays feature length films then I find it rather illogical that I should somehow pine for more storage. Even Blu Ray Disney supported iHD as their interactivity layer of choice over Java as well as Apple. Sony may ship 1st generation movies in MPEG2 on Single Layer discs (with a few releases on DL). Thus as a person who is reasonably informed about both formats I will rebuke the claims that Blu Ray's featureset gives them a substantive advantage qualitatively. Not from spite but simply from the reality that if the codecs are the same down to audio.
I'll own both formats and whoever wins out will be chosen by the people hopefully.
Originally posted by hmurchison
I think this is actually counter to the truth. If both formats can hold %95 of todays feature length films then I find it rather illogical that I should somehow pine for more storage.
Again, you are assuming that nothing will change and also that everyone else is like you. Who knows what creative uses there are for the extra space? (other than supporting the other 5% of feature films) Having more than enough is what propmts developers to get creative. Having just enough or less than enough *forces* engineers to get creative.
Originally posted by hmurchison
If both formats can hold %95 of todays feature length films then I find it rather illogical that I should somehow pine for more storage.
When a company begins the process of figuring out what to include on a DVD, what it all comes down to is something called the Bit Budget.
There are many added value extras, alternate versions, additional DTS streams and even languages that get dropped from a title because there isn't enough room in the Bit Budget.
If we had more capacity today, we'd see much different discs than the ones being released.
With extra capacity we get more options.
Originally posted by Kolchak
I dunno. The moment I look at that picture, my mind says "Bang & Olufsen." With all due respect to B&O, they're all show and very little go. Very pretty, but very expensive and not very well designed in terms of function.
If Dell are going to put Blu-Ray into all their PC's then Microsoft don't really have a choice.
Dell, Apple and all Playstations in the world are going to have Blu-Ray. That's a guaranteed user base of a few hundred million before selling a single stand alone Blu-Ray player.
HD-DVD is the computing equivalent of Monty Pythons Dead Parrot.
Here is post describing one event
I just came back from the HD-XA1 demo at the PC Richards in NYC. I came into the demo with mixed opinions because I have not always liked Toshiba products, but this experience changed my perspective.
Some of the movies off of the HD-DVD player were so-so, i.e. 40 yr old virgin. But Dukes of Hazard and especially KING KONG blew me away. There was such crystal clear realism. Loved it. This player was truley a step in the right direction in my opinion.
Best of all, I walked away with a free Toshiba HD-DVD pen. That sold me.
PC Richards is taking pre-orders so I may call them up later.
The only thing that I was wondering was when these HD-DVD players do come out, the Advanced Navigation wont be available just yet, i.e. Enhanced Menu, Fast search. you will need a firmware upgrade. Is this true?
Just as I thought. Both formats will indeed look great. I'm stoked but I think I'll hold out until second generation HD DVD and wait for any kinks in the PS3 to be worked out. I'll focus on getting a capable 50-55 inch screen.
Originally posted by Splinemodel
Again, you are assuming that nothing will change and also that everyone else is like you. Who knows what creative uses there are for the extra space? (other than supporting the other 5% of feature films) Having more than enough is what propmts developers to get creative. Having just enough or less than enough *forces* engineers to get creative.
Agreed. Not to mention that TV shows are now selling like hotcakes on DVD. The more individual shows you can fit onto a single disc the better. This means less total discs which equals less cost, less hastle and smaller packaging. Plus, for computing uses, dont tell me you couldnt use an extra 10GB of space for backups!
Before the Blu-ray association decided to support AVC (h.264) I was leaning toward favoring HD-DVD, as you could theoretically hold more video content on a single disc. Plus, there are manufacturing advantages to HD-DVD, which in the end could mean HD-DVDs are cheaper than Blu-ray (at least cost to the content providers, marketing strategies will ultimately dictate pricing). But now that AVC is supported on Blu-ray, I am leaning in that direction.
Regardless, I dont plan on purchasing either player until one of them dies. I am not going to plop down hundreds of dollars for a player and movies that may one day be defunct. I think many consumers will have similar feelings.
The truth of the matter is that this war could go on for quite some time. The first DVD players in 1997 (or was it 96?) didnt take off to a stellar start. And it wasnt until about Christmas 2000 that DVD sales overtook VHS sales, thats almost 4 years. On top of that, there will certainly be market confusion between standard DVDs and HD-DVDs and Blu-ray. Remember, DVDs were easily distinguished from VHS tapes. There will be less descernment between the next-gen DVDs and current ones. I think many people will ask "This one costs less and it looks good anyway, so why should I pay the extra money for a similar product?" This is similar to the HDTV situation, and it has certainly taken some time (and pricing reductions) for consumers to buy into the HD craze.
At any rate, I am not looking forward to this problem. I can only hope I am wrong, and one of the two dies and quick and painless death...
BTW, I havent read about the differences in interactivity capabilities between Blu-ray and HD-DVD. Anyone have any good links?
Originally posted by 4fx
Agreed. Not to mention that TV shows are now selling like hotcakes on DVD. The more individual shows you can fit onto a single disc the better. This means less total discs which equals less cost, less hastle and smaller packaging. Plus, for computing uses, dont tell me you couldnt use an extra 10GB of space for backups!
Before the Blu-ray association decided to support AVC (h.264) I was leaning toward favoring HD-DVD, as you could theoretically hold more video content on a single disc. Plus, there are manufacturing advantages to HD-DVD, which in the end could mean HD-DVDs are cheaper than Blu-ray (at least cost to the content providers, marketing strategies will ultimately dictate pricing). But now that AVC is supported on Blu-ray, I am leaning in that direction.
Regardless, I dont plan on purchasing either player until one of them dies. I am not going to plop down hundreds of dollars for a player and movies that may one day be defunct. I think many consumers will have similar feelings.
The truth of the matter is that this war could go on for quite some time. The first DVD players in 1997 (or was it 96?) didnt take off to a stellar start. And it wasnt until about Christmas 2000 that DVD sales overtook VHS sales, thats almost 4 years. On top of that, there will certainly be market confusion between standard DVDs and HD-DVDs and Blu-ray. Remember, DVDs were easily distinguished from VHS tapes. There will be less descernment between the next-gen DVDs and current ones. I think many people will ask "This one costs less and it looks good anyway, so why should I pay the extra money for a similar product?" This is similar to the HDTV situation, and it has certainly taken some time (and pricing reductions) for consumers to buy into the HD craze.
At any rate, I am not looking forward to this problem. I can only hope I am wrong, and one of the two dies and quick and painless death...
BTW, I havent read about the differences in interactivity capabilities between Blu-ray and HD-DVD. Anyone have any good links?
Totally agree with your logic pertaining to TV shows and the like that would be more convenient when consolidation was implemented by using a medium that has more storage like the Blu-ray disc. Also, can't agree with you more about the capabilities for backup with Blu-ray.
Here is a link about the interactive capabilities or either format. Blu-ray will be using BD-J (Java) and HD DVD will be using iHD (XML based and developed by Microsoft)...
http://www.oreillynet.com/mac/blog/2...ts_perfec.html
We Love Blu-Ray Java! It's Perfect! Now Change.
Thursday October 27, 2005 1:27PM
by Chris Adamson
The Blu-Ray versus HD-DVD war is spilling over into nearby fields, including Java, thanks to the fact that Blu-Ray uses Java to provide its interactive features. Consider the following quote from an article from EE Times, in which HP's general manager for personal storage says HP compared Blu-Ray Java to the Microsoft-created iHD interactive standard in the HD-DVD and "found Java in Blu-ray was much more mature and robust with complete test suites. In contrast, we found many holes in Microsoft's proprietary iHD."
Then tell me how it is that last week, HP called for Blu-Ray to adopt iHD?
If you want to stop here for a quick recap, a good source for information on the Java spec for Blu-Ray, BD-J, is the JavaOne 2005 session "Java Technology Goes to the Movies: Java Technology in Next- Generation Optical Disc Formats", which is available from JavaOne Online. BD-J is a J2ME Personal Basis Profile with API's borrowed from interactive television (DVB with the broadcast stuff taken out), HAVI (for a consumer electronics oriented GUI), plus the previously-moribund JavaTV API (for the concept of an Xlet) and Java Media Framework (for reasons unstated... perhaps pity). The resulting platform claims to offer deep programmability, including layering of graphics, video, and background, synchronization with video (either in a tight frame-accurate style or a looser callback scheme), and more.
Details on iHD have been somewhat harder to come by. I did find a general description in the article HP requests feature additions to Blu-ray disc technology, in which Microsoft's director of technology strategy for Windows Digital Media says the idea behind iHD is to "use Web-like tools such as XML, and that would make it very easy for a creative person that did not need to be a software programmer, to be able to create interactivity menus and applications for optical media," adding "the vast majority of studios prefer iHD over BDJ, because it's easier to author, you can have your creative people involved, it's cheaper, [and] it's got all these benefits."
OK, seriously, we're still comparing markup and executable languages? This is like saying that HTML is better than C because it's easier.
Oh, I know, context: easier for the content developer. No kidding. As the JavaOne session says: "Most content will probably be written with high-level tools" and that "opportunities exist in tool building". Clearly, the expectation is that simple markup environments can and will be written on top of BD-J, quite possibly including iHD, but the fact that the standard is the executable allows these environments to compete, and doesn't close the door on functionality advancements. The interactivity can get better as developers discover new ways to exploit BD-J. Plus, nobody's writing "bonus" games for the kids with a markup language, at least not one that will be interesting for more than two minutes.
The big picture is that this remains a consumer electronics versus PC's battle and the consumer electronics side is winning. Forrester says Blu-Ray will win, and Warner Bros adopted Blu-Ray and joined its board last week. Blu-ray certainly has immense advantages, not the least of which is the fact that it will be on the PlayStation 3, set to launch early next year. The PS3 makes the scenario more interesting by including internet connectivity as standard equipment -- internet connectivity is part of the BD-J spec, and if Sony's implementation chooses to implement it, then there are tremendous opportunities for fundamentally new kinds of content, with material available and updated even after the disc is stamped and sold, to say nothing of e-commerce plays (every movie can have its own online store, accessed from the disc).
Here's another one...
http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/7066/
A particular bullet of interest in the article above...
? Interactivity: Blu-ray disc is built on BD-Java, which leverages years of industry investment and experience in the set-top box, PC, and cell phone industries. BD-JavaTM provides a mature, robust platform for authoring and delivering unprecedented interactive capabilities to the user for movies, music, and games. BD-Java was selected over iHD, the developmental Microsoft technology used in HD-DVD. The BDA carefully compared both iHD and BD-J, and concluded that iHD didn't go far enough in providing a compelling feature set beyond DVD, while BD-J offered studios a much richer palette for providing a compelling interactive HD experience for consumers, particularly when a player is connected to a network.
Also, in the above link a interesting quote by Weber before HP was forced by Microsoft (somehow) to also support HD DVD too...
"From a PC end-user perspective, Blu-ray is a superior format. It offers 67-150% more storage capacity, higher transfer rates, slim-line notebook compatibility, broadband connectivity and a proven interactive layer with BD- Java," said Maureen Weber, General Manager of Hewlett Packard's Personal Storage Business in the press release. "The technical merits and consumer benefits of Blu-ray Disc make it the ideal solution for HP's customers."
And finally, the five reasons why Blu-ray will win the format war...
http://www.engadget.com/2005/10/06/t...-ray-will-win/
Also, can't agree with you more about the capabilities for backup with Blu-ray.
Which means clearly you haven't a clue about the current trends in backup. Hint, neither HD DVD or Blu Ray have much of a chance outside of the basic home user. Today people want Continuous Protection which is generally being back up to a HDD based storage device and then archived to tape which holds 320GB for $40-50 and is faster than both formats. BD isn't even in the ballpark regarding cost/gigabyte and won't be for some time.
Quoting articles from Oct of last year is a bit silly. Adam really didn't delve into anything substantive. iHD is going to be native in Vista. Java will not. iHD doesn't require recompiles...Java does. iHD is XML based with nice synchonization features. iHD supported PiP before the BDA rushed to add it later to the spec. There is very little debugging needed in iHD as well because it's not a programming language. What's the hottest web interactivity format right now? AJAX...javascript combined with XML. iHD is far closer to a nice lightweight tool like AJAX than Java will ever be.
LOL
You keep posting marketing drivel as though that's something special. I'm not even sure you really understand the Pros and Cons Marzetta7. Try and find your own voice a bit more.
Today I will be going to the Video Only in Tukwila WA. They have the HD DVD player setup and playing trailers from King Kong and others. I hear KK is phenomenal in quality. Maybe I can find the bitrate of the better looking trailers and report back.
Let me once again reiterate my feelings on the formats.
I'm an HD DVD proponent because I believe it has the ability to give me the best cost/performance ratio.
I will STILL be a Blu Ray purchaser(PS3)
I argue strongly for HD DVD because I'm a movie lover who just wants to watch high quality movies. I don't care about gaming on my player. I don't care about how many player models are on the format. I don't get caught up in pipe dreams about quad layers and backup capabilities.
I simply want a low cost HD playback system that doesn't cost me an undue amount of money. HD DVD is who i've hitched my hopes to but whatever format that wins ..has earned it in my book.
TTFN
Originally posted by hmurchison
[B]Which means clearly you haven't a clue about the current trends in backup. Hint, neither HD DVD or Blu Ray have much of a chance outside of the basic home user. Today people want Continuous Protection which is generally being back up to a HDD based storage device and then archived to tape which holds 320GB for $40-50 and is faster than both formats. BD isn't even in the ballpark regarding cost/gigabyte and won't be for some time.
Yawwwwn. Oh, were you saying something I haven't heard already from you...? Ignoring certain markets, that is the home user market, doesn't strengthen your argument one bit. Did you see me mention the business market as pertains to backup at all? Nope, sure didn't. I know quite well that what you state here is the norm for business, but as a home user, Blu-ray will be a definite viable backup medium. Blu-ray may even find itself viable in small businesses, as it pertains to a backup medium.
Quoting articles from Oct of last year is a bit silly. Adam really didn't delve into anything substantive. iHD is going to be native in Vista. Java will not. iHD doesn't require recompiles...Java does. iHD is XML based with nice synchonization features. iHD supported PiP before the BDA rushed to add it later to the spec. There is very little debugging needed in iHD as well because it's not a programming language. What's the hottest web interactivity format right now? AJAX...javascript combined with XML. iHD is far closer to a nice lightweight tool like AJAX than Java will ever be.
LOL
You keep posting marketing drivel as though that's something special. I'm not even sure you really understand the Pros and Cons Marzetta7. Try and find your own voice a bit more.
That's because I'm just downright silly. Honestly, if you want to be completely accurate, there isn't much to go off on for either interactivity software that delves into anything substantial, BD-J or iHD. So, finding an article that happens to be written back in October (only like 3 months ago) somehow doesn't apply and is deemed silly by you? Whatever. Our friend here asked about interactivity software, so I gave him some information on it. Should I've consulted Amir over at Microsoft for his FUD on BD-J?
Who cares if Java requires recompiles? Doesn't make it any less useful or technologically inferior. Regarding pros and cons, I've programmed in Java, have you? Moreover, I've also written many a file with XML and understand how it works and forsee myself writing more of it once Vista rolls out as many OS configurations will be solely in XML. Furthermore, just because iHD is native in Vista doesn't mean we have to bring Microsoft's crap into our living room experience. You make it sound as if anything Microsoft blesses or deems worthy must go into our future HD format. No thanks.
Yes, iHD is XML based, and XML needs an interpreter/engine to process and/or define the XML's custom tags. What is the XML engine built from? Not XML,...but most likely from C# or .NET. It will be proprietary to Micorosoft, you won't be able to change it, and you won't have much flexiblity in deciding what parts of the XML you can use and can't and how you can implement them and can't as this will be Microsoft's call. It is their software, and not to mention, when was the last time Microsoft was 100% compliant in terms of web-based technology? See where I'm getting at?
Java makes much more sense in that it is much more flexible from a programming standpoint, and is already being used out in the electronics industry for cell phones and other devices. Cost? Will iHD be cheaper to use? I strongly doubt it since I haven't really seen Microsoft historically lower their prices once given a majority in a market. I can see them charging significant fees if they were to have iHD implemented on the next format.
So, in summary, I don't see any added benefits iHD can possibly offer in terms of flexibility, speed (in terms of processing, not in the creation of menus, etc.), functionality, or cost (sure they're marketing it as cheaper now, but if they get it implemented, will it continue to be cheaper?). I think clearly Java is the better decision, but for MS fanboys, probably not.
Today I will be going to the Video Only in Tukwila WA. They have the HD DVD player setup and playing trailers from King Kong and others. I hear KK is phenomenal in quality. Maybe I can find the bitrate of the better looking trailers and report back.
Let me once again reiterate my feelings on the formats.
I'm an HD DVD proponent because I believe it has the ability to give me the best cost/performance ratio.
I will STILL be a Blu Ray purchaser(PS3)
I argue strongly for HD DVD because I'm a movie lover who just wants to watch high quality movies. I don't care about gaming on my player. I don't care about how many player models are on the format. I don't get caught up in pipe dreams about quad layers and backup capabilities.
I simply want a low cost HD playback system that doesn't cost me an undue amount of money. HD DVD is who i've hitched my hopes to but whatever format that wins ..has earned it in my book.
TTFN
Spoken like a true man cognisant that HD DVD is DOA, yet not willing to admit it, and giving himself an out when it does fail. Pipe dreams? There's that word again you like to use. How you use the word "pipe dream" to describe quad layered discs when manufacturers like TDK have already showcased 100GB discs back in January is just strange.
http://news.techwhack.com/2889/tdk-s...-blu-ray-disc/
I think we all want a low cost HD playback system that doesn't cost an undue amount of money, and we'll get it with Blu-ray as economies of scale will provide this shortly. You base your cost argument for formats that have just been released, and we all know new technology is initially more expensive. HD DVD is currently cheaper, as they are desperate, and realize that the economies of scale and a superior format are against them.
I recommend you find your own voice, a voice of reason based on logic and not "feelings" as you so eloquently noted above. In the meantime, enjoy the HD DVD rollout while it lasts. Heck, even pickup a HD DVD player, I'm sure it will make a good paper weight in the future.
Blu-ray may even find itself viable in small businesses, as it pertains to a backup medium.
It may but the chances are highly unlikely. Just being honest. It offers nothing special in storage capacity or speed compared to what we have now.
No I haven't programmed Java and frankly don't want to for menu creation. iHD is obviously enticing to more companies than just Microsoft. Disney is a co-creator and Apple supported iHD. HP switched their stance on iHD as well after learning more. Never met a phone interface I thought was truly special. Looking for better things from iHD or other XML based markup.
Quad layer discs aren't part of the BD-ROM spec so it's strictly a "Lab creation" right now that hasn't been mass produced.
Sony is subsidizing production costs or you'd see a difference in media costs. What happens when the subsidy is gone? I've chosen the best format for me. If others disagree that's fine we all are going to make our own decision. It's just when I see the hubris of some people I speak out against it. Not you in particular Marzetta7 but some others.
pretty sweet to buy a movie trilogy that could fit on one disc or an
entire season of the Simpsons on two discs. (I think that the current
DVD versions have 4-5 discs for each season.)
Originally posted by hmurchison
iHD is going to be native in Vista. Java will not.
That's not saying much. Java isn't native in any version of Windows, yet it has done pretty well so far. Even without Microsoft's support, it's on nearly every system I've ever worked with. On the other hand, there are plenty of things native in Windows that are inferior technology and haven't done well despite Microsoft's backing.
I will STILL be a Blu Ray purchaser(PS3)
(snip)
I simply want a low cost HD playback system that doesn't cost me an undue amount of money.
Sounds like an interesting contradiction to me. You want the cheapest system but you'll buy them both, which in my eye would cost more.
Someone, marzetta?, said that DVD sales are declining. If that statement is true it?s not because DVDs are no longer the flavor of the month; it?s because those people who buy DVDs have matured their collection and are only buying new releases that catch their fancy or some gem that has somehow escaped from deep within a media company?s vault. Disney?where?s Song of the South?
I can really see media companies shooting themselves in the foot when HD/BR discs are released by charging a premium and keeping prices artificially high like they did with CDs for so long. This is especially true if new releases are a combo HD/regular DVD. If that happens my DVD buying days are over and I?ll restart my Netflix membership.
I?m still unsure in my own mind whether HD/BR will have enough of a wow factor to convince the Walmart consumer to part with their money for new equipment and discs or whether it will be a niche product like laserdiscs were during the VHS days. Right now I?m leaning towards the latter, at least for the next 3-4 years. There?s a real potential here for some media and manufacturing companies to bleed a bunch of red ink.
Murch, I believe, mentioned highspeed downloads and fiber optics as a movie delivery method. Come on, get real. How many people think that fiber optics to your doorstep will be a reality in the next 10-years except to a few certain select areas. And getting movies on demand from Comcast, one of the most hated companies in America, one who raises rates every year for non-existent ?improvements in service?? Oh, boy!
From what little I know about the competing standards, I much prefer Blu-Ray, primarily for the increased storage. As a home user I back up my computer to an external hard drive, but I also burn my data files to DVD for off-site storage. The extra capacity of Blu-Ray is very attractive for this purpose. So what if it?s slow, start it copying when you go to bed and let it chug away overnight. A BR read/write machine, at a $400-500 price point, would be great as part of my home entertainment system to archive those programs in HD that I record to my HD set top DVR. Another sore point with me is that even though all but the cheapest receivers come with 7.1 capability, present day DVDs usually have DD 5.1 or, if you?re lucky, DTS 5.1. I can think of only one disc in my collection that breaks this mold, Gladiator, which is DTS 6.1. The added capacity of BR should allow for both better sound and more special features.
It?ll be interesting to see how this all plays out in the coming months.
NY TImes Article
Originally posted by wilco
Here's some more ammo for this ongoing nerd war:
NY TImes Article
Hmm, Amir. Let's just say his reputation proceeds himself.
Blu-ray drives cost up to 75 percent more than HD-DVD drives, according to Maureen Weber, the general manager of the personal storage group at Hewlett-Packard and a former spokeswoman for the Blu-ray coalition. "There's not a lot of elbow room," she said of the thin profit margins on computers. "The economics of HD-DVD make a lot more sense for us. I'm starting to wonder about the manufacturing ability of Blu-ray."
Doesn't sound like Amir to me.
This was one of the better articles out there. It seems neither pro BD or HD-DVD. Looking forward to the HD DVD tour hitting Washington on March 8th so that I can see more.
Originally posted by Guartho
Whichever format Wal*Mart decides to sell will be the winner. Therefore it'll probably be whichever is cheapest out the gate.
Unlikely. Early adopters don't tend to shop at Walmart, nor do the quality driven.