And I'm calling your bluff. The last IBM notebook I used had a PII: it blew out a lot of hot air through its vents, but still got hot. The Dell notebook at my office turn on their fans within minutes of booting up because they get hot. My PB 12" gets hot.
Every notebook I have ever used, except for my retired PB 160, gets hot.
I have a 1.2GHz PIIIm Compaq N600c business notebook that doesn't get anywhere nearly so hot, such that it really is suitable for laptop use, unlike the Apple notebooks. The thickness was 1.25", 14" SXGA+ screen and weighed about 5lb, and the cpu was one of the faster notebook chips at the time, and the fastest PIIIm chip made, I think. I also haven't had a heat problem with the 866MHz notebook of same model either, or my sister's Compaq Armada 700M.
Fullscreen Browsing might be okay if you're in front of an 17 inch CRT, but do you really want Safari or Mail to cover 100% of your 30" Cinema Display? I doubt ...
That does make sense, but I would say that there may be 100 users of 17" screens for every user of a 30" screen.
And the bahavior isn't consistent, it is sometimes based on window location, if I don't like how the green button behaves, if I move the window a bit it suddenly behaves the way I thought it would have.
There often isn't a single predictable result. iTunes switches between mini-player or a size that submarines under the dock, blocking some controls. iTunes should be smarter than that.
I did just check the Finder, it appears it has been recently changed from behavior of only months ago. Before, if I had a short multi-column icon view, it would make the window to show two icon columns, going backwards from what I want.
What does this matter? Are you going to attribute my opinion to a 'oh you're just used to Windows!' type of 'argument'? That's no argument at all. Because I'm not used to Windows. I haven't used Windows in a regular fashion since Win95. I've used Linux in the meantime, and own an Apple computer since 1997.
Chucker:
Quote:
The green button resizes the windows to a size where you can comfortably interact between them (if it doesn't, your app wasn't done well).
Right, but again, when i "Zoom" a movie, I want it to cover the entire screen. I guess Apple could offer some type of preference on this issue as I see a lot of people that want that maximize function (either to replace the zoom function, wich I almost never use, or as an added option somewhere).
klg:
Quote:
but do you really want Safari or Mail to cover 100% of your 30" Cinema Display?
Yeah, and how many users have a 30" Cinema Dispaly?
But when I click on a button that is supposed to maximize the window to cover my whole screen (such as a movie playing in QuickTime.app for example), I want it to cover the entire screen because I do not want to be distracted by my Thriller desktop picture. It's simple, really. [/i]
There is simply no argument against this, no matter how hard you try. The maximize button is fucked up, it's inconsistent and just a mess. I don't know what is sader, the dumb fucks who coded the maximize button, or the people defending it. I don't know if it's a technical problem or not, but if I was on the Finder team responsible for coding it, I would be embarassed as a mother fucker.
[B]That does make sense, but I would say that there may be 100 users of 17" screens for every user of a 30" screen.
Yes, that may be.
But, as time goes on, more and more people will use large displays.
Quote:
And the bahavior isn't consistent, it is sometimes based on window location, if I don't like how the green button behaves, if I move the window a bit it suddenly behaves the way I thought it would have.
[...]
It depends on what the developer chose. I've written apps that go fullscreen (that is the default behaviour, I think), but if you do it by the book, they dont't go fullscreen but to the size to display all documents contents.
Right, but again, when i "Zoom" a movie, I want it to cover the entire screen. I guess Apple could offer some type of preference on this issue as I see a lot of people that want that maximize function (either to replace the zoom function, wich I almost never use, or as an added option somewhere).
Yes, that should be an option, I agree.
That could be implemented with a modifier key:
Click in (+): default
Click in (+) with $modifier: fullscreen
$modifier could be: shift or command or alt ...
Quote:
klg:
Yeah, and how many users have a 30" Cinema Dispaly? [/B]
More and more as the displays become cheaper and cheaper ...
I always thought of OS X as an OS waiting for the right hardware to run on ...
That means that I think OS X is developed with not only the current but also the future hardware in mind.
And how many people are using 14 inch CRT at present?
30" is an anomaly (albeit a good one) in the current market, rather than something more and more people are catching up with. It's much too expensive at this point to be normal. Nevermind the gigantic size that most people don't even need.
Noone said anything about a 14" screen. But the majority of the market either uses some 17" they got for $199 at CompUSA or some other low-resolution screen that came bundled with one of their computer purchases (somewhere in the range of 15 - 17").
How often does Apple make a "revision" to a product to fix issues, such as the heat or squeek noise? Would this be the "6th month" cycle? Or is it possible they would come out with a revision B, for example, in the next month or two?
It's interesting that this issue with the window management had never occurred to me. I can see how someone might get used to a maximize button, though I don't like it much (I am using a 20" iMac, and don't like anything maximized over the whole screen) unless working with a large photo file, or watching video. While using QT, I hit Cmd F, and I get a full screen. Front Row is great. Also, there is the F9 & F10 keys, which I use for eliminating distraction.
I have no complaints, personally. Though, other then the first couple Epson/UNIX and Atari around the house as a kid, I've only ever used Macs. I find the maximize unwanted when using Windows (When I very rarely do), and I am sure it's because I am used to what I'm used to.
It's interesting that this issue with the window management had never occurred to me. I can see how someone might get used to a maximize button, though I don't like it much (I am using a 20" iMac, and don't like anything maximized over the whole screen) unless working with a large photo file, or watching video. While using QT, I hit Cmd F, and I get a full screen. Front Row is great. Also, there is the F9 & F10 keys, which I use for eliminating distraction.
I have no complaints, personally. Though, other then the first couple Epson/UNIX and Atari around the house as a kid, I've only ever used Macs. I find the maximize unwanted when using Windows (When I very rarely do), and I am sure it's because I am used to what I'm used to.
I maximize windows a lot on my Windows XP machine at work and I like how XP smoothly maximizes the windows. In contrast, the OS X gui sucks at this - it leaves the top corners of the windows rounded and leaves the dock at the bottom of the screen, etc. I really hope Leapard's GUI is vastly overhauled when it comes out. Just my $0.02.
Right now I have 7 windows open on my 12" iMac, like the way the green button works, and have absolutely do not want it to change to a fullscreen button. The only time I find myself using fullscreen mode on the PC is when I am playing a game: fullscreen mode is way too limiting and hinders my productivity (and I don't see why some people like fullscreen mode -- I guess they are just used to it).
It's interesting that this issue with the window management had never occurred to me. I can see how someone might get used to a maximize button, though I don't like it much (I am using a 20" iMac, and don't like anything maximized over the whole screen) unless working with a large photo file, or watching video. While using QT, I hit Cmd F, and I get a full screen. Front Row is great. Also, there is the F9 & F10 keys, which I use for eliminating distraction.
There is a problem with unintuitive inconsistencies. Quicktime's full screen command is is inconsistent with iTune's video playback full screen command. I'm not sure what function the F9 and F10 keys are supposed to do, I've changed the defaults on my computer so I forget. If you mean Exposé, the I just use different "hot corners".
I just re-checked with Finder, there are definitely circumstances that hitting the "+" button shrinks the window for each successive click, until it only displays a single icon in icon view, which is the opposite of the expected effect. I think I've seen something like that happen with Preview too.
I use 21" CRTs and I still want a quick full screen command for Finder and some document editors from time to time, at least I don't want it to shrink the displayed window, even if it only grew the window successively in a quick and consistent manner, then I would be happy.
It seems that we prefer what we are used to (at least as far as we know). I think that adding a feature can't hurt as long as long as the buttons don't start piling up too much. Perhaps Apple feels that there are options with scripts, or some such thing (What is the equivalent to "QuickKeys" these days? Automator?). Perhaps instead of hiding the window when you double click on the top of it (Since the yellow button does the same) it could maximize it. There is likely a way to set it to do so now, though I am unaware of how. A long time ago I could tell you how with "ResEdit".
I maximize windows a lot on my Windows XP machine at work and I like how XP smoothly maximizes the windows. In contrast, the OS X gui sucks at this - it leaves the top corners of the windows rounded and leaves the dock at the bottom of the screen, etc. I really hope Leapard's GUI is vastly overhauled when it comes out. Just my $0.02.
I have to say, as a LONG-time Mac user, I've hated the "green-plus" from day one of Mac OS X. There's one main reason, whether you call it maximize (incorrectly), or zoom, if I have a browser window open taking up most of the screen, and click the +, it MAKES THE WINDOWS SMALLER! Seriously, what the hell kind of UI guideline is that following? It isn't maximizing, it isn't even zooming, it's SHRINKING my window.
As for the heat issues, relating to PC laptops, I've worked in IT a long time, at several big famous universities, and seen all kinds of laptops. Specific to this issue, the IBM/Lenovo T43 with single-core Pentium M running at 1.73? GHz gets AT LEAST as hot as the MacBook Pros we get in. Granted, the T43 is really small, but most of that is due to the fact that the optical drive is external, and the battery is tiny, unless you get the extended, which is literally extended out the back of the computer, as in it sticks out like a log along the hinge point. And to be clear about how hot the T43's get, I have several CD jewel cases that I've taken the fronts off of to use as "air spacers" to rest the T43's on when ghosting or using for any length of time. Don't get me wrong, I think the T43's a great little laptops, but to say the heat issues are in any way exclusive to Apple laptops, or even more pronounced on MacBooks is crazy. Yeah, the smaller and more dense a laptop, the harder it will be to cool, all other things being equal, but that goes for ALL manufacturers.
I have to say, as a LONG-time Mac user, I've hated the "green-plus" from day one of Mac OS X. There's one main reason, whether you call it maximize (incorrectly), or zoom, if I have a browser window open taking up most of the screen, and click the +, it MAKES THE WINDOWS SMALLER! Seriously, what the hell kind of UI guideline is that following? It isn't maximizing, it isn't even zooming, it's SHRINKING my window.
It's readjusting to the size you need. I'm not sure where "zoom" implies "enlarge" in your book, either.
I'm sorry, but no. I don't need an operating system to operate counterintuitively like that. That goes against what Apple and fans say about the Mac OS. To say that it is readjusting to the size that I need simply doesn't sufficiently explain it. Maybe if it cycled through various sizes that explaination would work. The current implemented behavior does not comply with any reasonable standard that I can find. Why a plus symbol would be something you'd click to make something smaller is beyond me.
You must be using a different green button to the one I've got on my Mac then. Because in nearly all applications, it toggles between two different sizes. Which is not the same as cycling between various different sizes (which implies more than two sizes).
I don't really ever use the green button, and I'd have to agree that it is horribly inconsistent. People like to say that it makes the window zoom to just the size that you need to see everything properly, but most of the time that simply isn't true.
I don't really like the idea of maximising windows, but if other people want to do it, why not let them? There could just be a modifier key (e.g. option), so if you hold it down whilst clicking the button, maximises the window. I don't see how that would hurt anyone.
Comments
Originally posted by k squared
And I'm calling your bluff. The last IBM notebook I used had a PII: it blew out a lot of hot air through its vents, but still got hot. The Dell notebook at my office turn on their fans within minutes of booting up because they get hot. My PB 12" gets hot.
Every notebook I have ever used, except for my retired PB 160, gets hot.
I have a 1.2GHz PIIIm Compaq N600c business notebook that doesn't get anywhere nearly so hot, such that it really is suitable for laptop use, unlike the Apple notebooks. The thickness was 1.25", 14" SXGA+ screen and weighed about 5lb, and the cpu was one of the faster notebook chips at the time, and the fastest PIIIm chip made, I think. I also haven't had a heat problem with the 866MHz notebook of same model either, or my sister's Compaq Armada 700M.
Originally posted by klg
Especially when it comes to large screens.
Fullscreen Browsing might be okay if you're in front of an 17 inch CRT, but do you really want Safari or Mail to cover 100% of your 30" Cinema Display? I doubt ...
That does make sense, but I would say that there may be 100 users of 17" screens for every user of a 30" screen.
And the bahavior isn't consistent, it is sometimes based on window location, if I don't like how the green button behaves, if I move the window a bit it suddenly behaves the way I thought it would have.
There often isn't a single predictable result. iTunes switches between mini-player or a size that submarines under the dock, blocking some controls. iTunes should be smarter than that.
I did just check the Finder, it appears it has been recently changed from behavior of only months ago. Before, if I had a short multi-column icon view, it would make the window to show two icon columns, going backwards from what I want.
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Gene Clean, how long have you been using Macs?
What does this matter? Are you going to attribute my opinion to a 'oh you're just used to Windows!' type of 'argument'? That's no argument at all. Because I'm not used to Windows. I haven't used Windows in a regular fashion since Win95. I've used Linux in the meantime, and own an Apple computer since 1997.
Chucker:
The green button resizes the windows to a size where you can comfortably interact between them (if it doesn't, your app wasn't done well).
Right, but again, when i "Zoom" a movie, I want it to cover the entire screen. I guess Apple could offer some type of preference on this issue as I see a lot of people that want that maximize function (either to replace the zoom function, wich I almost never use, or as an added option somewhere).
klg:
but do you really want Safari or Mail to cover 100% of your 30" Cinema Display?
Yeah, and how many users have a 30" Cinema Dispaly?
Originally posted by Gene Clean
But when I click on a button that is supposed to maximize the window to cover my whole screen (such as a movie playing in QuickTime.app for example), I want it to cover the entire screen because I do not want to be distracted by my Thriller desktop picture. It's simple, really. [/i]
There is simply no argument against this, no matter how hard you try. The maximize button is fucked up, it's inconsistent and just a mess. I don't know what is sader, the dumb fucks who coded the maximize button, or the people defending it. I don't know if it's a technical problem or not, but if I was on the Finder team responsible for coding it, I would be embarassed as a mother fucker.
Originally posted by JeffDM
[B]That does make sense, but I would say that there may be 100 users of 17" screens for every user of a 30" screen.
Yes, that may be.
But, as time goes on, more and more people will use large displays.
And the bahavior isn't consistent, it is sometimes based on window location, if I don't like how the green button behaves, if I move the window a bit it suddenly behaves the way I thought it would have.
[...]
It depends on what the developer chose. I've written apps that go fullscreen (that is the default behaviour, I think), but if you do it by the book, they dont't go fullscreen but to the size to display all documents contents.
klg
[...]
Right, but again, when i "Zoom" a movie, I want it to cover the entire screen. I guess Apple could offer some type of preference on this issue as I see a lot of people that want that maximize function (either to replace the zoom function, wich I almost never use, or as an added option somewhere).
Yes, that should be an option, I agree.
That could be implemented with a modifier key:
Click in (+): default
Click in (+) with $modifier: fullscreen
$modifier could be: shift or command or alt ...
klg:
Yeah, and how many users have a 30" Cinema Dispaly? [/B]
More and more as the displays become cheaper and cheaper ...
I always thought of OS X as an OS waiting for the right hardware to run on ...
That means that I think OS X is developed with not only the current but also the future hardware in mind.
And how many people are using 14 inch CRT at present?
klg
Noone said anything about a 14" screen. But the majority of the market either uses some 17" they got for $199 at CompUSA or some other low-resolution screen that came bundled with one of their computer purchases (somewhere in the range of 15 - 17").
I have no complaints, personally. Though, other then the first couple Epson/UNIX and Atari around the house as a kid, I've only ever used Macs. I find the maximize unwanted when using Windows (When I very rarely do), and I am sure it's because I am used to what I'm used to.
Originally posted by LotharSNL
It's interesting that this issue with the window management had never occurred to me. I can see how someone might get used to a maximize button, though I don't like it much (I am using a 20" iMac, and don't like anything maximized over the whole screen) unless working with a large photo file, or watching video. While using QT, I hit Cmd F, and I get a full screen. Front Row is great. Also, there is the F9 & F10 keys, which I use for eliminating distraction.
I have no complaints, personally. Though, other then the first couple Epson/UNIX and Atari around the house as a kid, I've only ever used Macs. I find the maximize unwanted when using Windows (When I very rarely do), and I am sure it's because I am used to what I'm used to.
I maximize windows a lot on my Windows XP machine at work and I like how XP smoothly maximizes the windows. In contrast, the OS X gui sucks at this - it leaves the top corners of the windows rounded and leaves the dock at the bottom of the screen, etc. I really hope Leapard's GUI is vastly overhauled when it comes out. Just my $0.02.
Originally posted by LotharSNL
It's interesting that this issue with the window management had never occurred to me. I can see how someone might get used to a maximize button, though I don't like it much (I am using a 20" iMac, and don't like anything maximized over the whole screen) unless working with a large photo file, or watching video. While using QT, I hit Cmd F, and I get a full screen. Front Row is great. Also, there is the F9 & F10 keys, which I use for eliminating distraction.
There is a problem with unintuitive inconsistencies. Quicktime's full screen command is is inconsistent with iTune's video playback full screen command. I'm not sure what function the F9 and F10 keys are supposed to do, I've changed the defaults on my computer so I forget. If you mean Exposé, the I just use different "hot corners".
I just re-checked with Finder, there are definitely circumstances that hitting the "+" button shrinks the window for each successive click, until it only displays a single icon in icon view, which is the opposite of the expected effect. I think I've seen something like that happen with Preview too.
I use 21" CRTs and I still want a quick full screen command for Finder and some document editors from time to time, at least I don't want it to shrink the displayed window, even if it only grew the window successively in a quick and consistent manner, then I would be happy.
Originally posted by Macvault
I maximize windows a lot on my Windows XP machine at work and I like how XP smoothly maximizes the windows. In contrast, the OS X gui sucks at this - it leaves the top corners of the windows rounded and leaves the dock at the bottom of the screen, etc. I really hope Leapard's GUI is vastly overhauled when it comes out. Just my $0.02.
I have to say, as a LONG-time Mac user, I've hated the "green-plus" from day one of Mac OS X. There's one main reason, whether you call it maximize (incorrectly), or zoom, if I have a browser window open taking up most of the screen, and click the +, it MAKES THE WINDOWS SMALLER! Seriously, what the hell kind of UI guideline is that following? It isn't maximizing, it isn't even zooming, it's SHRINKING my window.
As for the heat issues, relating to PC laptops, I've worked in IT a long time, at several big famous universities, and seen all kinds of laptops. Specific to this issue, the IBM/Lenovo T43 with single-core Pentium M running at 1.73? GHz gets AT LEAST as hot as the MacBook Pros we get in. Granted, the T43 is really small, but most of that is due to the fact that the optical drive is external, and the battery is tiny, unless you get the extended, which is literally extended out the back of the computer, as in it sticks out like a log along the hinge point. And to be clear about how hot the T43's get, I have several CD jewel cases that I've taken the fronts off of to use as "air spacers" to rest the T43's on when ghosting or using for any length of time. Don't get me wrong, I think the T43's a great little laptops, but to say the heat issues are in any way exclusive to Apple laptops, or even more pronounced on MacBooks is crazy. Yeah, the smaller and more dense a laptop, the harder it will be to cool, all other things being equal, but that goes for ALL manufacturers.
Originally posted by concentricity
I have to say, as a LONG-time Mac user, I've hated the "green-plus" from day one of Mac OS X. There's one main reason, whether you call it maximize (incorrectly), or zoom, if I have a browser window open taking up most of the screen, and click the +, it MAKES THE WINDOWS SMALLER! Seriously, what the hell kind of UI guideline is that following? It isn't maximizing, it isn't even zooming, it's SHRINKING my window.
It's readjusting to the size you need. I'm not sure where "zoom" implies "enlarge" in your book, either.
Originally posted by Chucker
It's readjusting to the size you need. I'm not sure where "zoom" implies "enlarge" in your book, either.
The sign + always implies that there's MORE of something, rather than less.
Originally posted by Gene Clean
The sign + always implies that there's MORE of something, rather than less.
So now we're down to arguing over Aqua's title bar widgets?
Originally posted by Chucker
It's readjusting to the size you need.
I'm sorry, but no. I don't need an operating system to operate counterintuitively like that. That goes against what Apple and fans say about the Mac OS. To say that it is readjusting to the size that I need simply doesn't sufficiently explain it. Maybe if it cycled through various sizes that explaination would work. The current implemented behavior does not comply with any reasonable standard that I can find. Why a plus symbol would be something you'd click to make something smaller is beyond me.
Originally posted by JeffDM
Maybe if it cycled through various sizes
Originally posted by Chucker
You must be using a different green button to the one I've got on my Mac then. Because in nearly all applications, it toggles between two different sizes. Which is not the same as cycling between various different sizes (which implies more than two sizes).
I don't really ever use the green button, and I'd have to agree that it is horribly inconsistent. People like to say that it makes the window zoom to just the size that you need to see everything properly, but most of the time that simply isn't true.
I don't really like the idea of maximising windows, but if other people want to do it, why not let them? There could just be a modifier key (e.g. option), so if you hold it down whilst clicking the button, maximises the window. I don't see how that would hurt anyone.