Blu-ray vs. HD DVD (2007)

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  • Reply 181 of 4650
    shetlineshetline Posts: 4,695member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post


    A reasonable individual can conclude that the durability is indeed in Blu-ray's favor.



    Which is more durable? A wooden crate full of ceramic coffee mugs or a steel crate full of crystal wine glasses? You let yourself get all impressed by how magnificently protective this hard coat is supposed to be, forgetting that Blu-Ray needs that kind of protection much more than HD DVD does.



    Besides, durability and reliability are not always the same thing. As I'd said before, no one has made it clear how well the hard coat "resists smudges from fingerprints", or resists clinging dust. Surface defects -- be they permanent scratches or temporary contamination -- are going to be much harder for a Blu-Ray player to overcome. It's easier for smaller defects to corrupt proper reading of the raw data on a Blu-Ray disc, throwing you back on the need to rely on error correction.
  • Reply 182 of 4650
    shetlineshetline Posts: 4,695member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    It seems like the author is reaching there, speculating about durability. No?



    This is more about reliability than durability, which, as I pointed out in the last post I just made, are related but not the same. Nothing beats hard data, which is in short supply, but the physics of what's being discussed is pretty straight forward -- surface defects, be they permanent damage or just temporary glop, will certainly be a greater obstacle for Blu-Ray than for HD DVD. How well Blu-Ray error correction compensates for this, and how well this works out in real-world disc handling and usage, is yet to be seen.
  • Reply 183 of 4650
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    Beyond that stupid console bickering, we should get back to the topic at hand.







    I tend to think that the "console wars" are very relevant to the HD "format wars."



    Three consoles;



    Wii ($250 MSRP, no HD (Hi-Def player))

    Xbox 360 ($300 MSRP, $200 addon HD-DVD)

    PS3 ($500 MSRP, HD Blu-Ray included)



    Of the three, the Wii (cheapest) is "flying of the shelves," perhaps it's the price?

    Of the three, Xbox 360 got the head start and now has an installed base (and significantly more titles) of ~6M units (September 2006), and estimated at ~10M now(?).

    Of the three, PS3 is the most expensive and MAY be having slow sales, perhaps it's the price?



    If the $200 Toshiba HD-DVD rumor at CES next week is true, if the PS3 rumors of slow sales are true, then the PS3 may just be "A Bridge Too Far."



    Don't get me wrong, IMHO Blu-Ray has the better specifications, but the consumer is fickle, faddish, and cost consious. If the MSM plays up the PS3's poor sales angle, if the rumors have even a little credence, it could all be over rather quickly.



    The whole point of discussing consoles at all, WRT the PS3, is an "economics of scale" argument, the more Blu-Ray mechs that are made, the lower their unit cost will be, the more cost competitive Blu-Ray players become WRT HD-DVD players. Selling alot pf PS3's can only help the Blu-Ray format, not selling alot of PS3's MAY hurt the Blu-Ray format.



  • Reply 184 of 4650
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by shetline View Post


    Which is more durable? A wooden crate full of ceramic coffee mugs or a steel crate full of crystal wine glasses? You let yourself get all impressed by how magnificently protective this hard coat is supposed to be, forgetting that Blu-Ray needs that kind of protection much more than HD DVD does.



    Besides, durability and reliability are not always the same thing. As I'd said before, no one has made it clear how well the hard coat "resists smudges from fingerprints", or resists clinging dust. Surface defects -- be they permanent scratches or temporary contamination -- are going to be much harder for a Blu-Ray player to overcome. It's easier for smaller defects to corrupt proper reading of the raw data on a Blu-Ray disc, throwing you back on the need to rely on error correction.







    It's fairly trivial to remove dust and smudges/fingerprint oils, it's not fairly trivial to remove scratches. Both formats have improved ECC, both formats need improved ECC to offset the smaller pitch/size of the pits, of the two I'd take the one that was more scratch resistant.



  • Reply 185 of 4650
    guarthoguartho Posts: 1,208member
    Anybody here getting BluRay discs from Netflix? I've had a lot of DVDs from Netflix that looked horribly scuffed etc, but played beautifully. The only ones I had that wouldn't play right were physically cracked all the way through.



    I imagine if BluRay discs can survive NetFlix they'll have good home reliability.
  • Reply 186 of 4650
    shetlineshetline Posts: 4,695member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Guartho View Post


    Anybody here getting BluRay discs from Netflix?



    I have two HD DVDs from Netflix -- my first Netflix discs of any kind -- waiting to be viewed this weekend after showing up in the mail this week. It'll be interesting to see what shape they're in and how well they play too.
  • Reply 187 of 4650
    shetlineshetline Posts: 4,695member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by franksargent View Post


    It's fairly trivial to remove dust and smudges/fingerprint oils, it's not fairly trivial to remove scratches.



    True, but if you find your movie viewing frequently interrupted by the need to pop a disc out and clean it because some trivial smudge or dust fleck you didn't notice when you put it in, and/or you have to ritually clean your Blu-Ray discs before every playing, like an audiophile playing vinyl, in order to avoid such interruptions, it would detract from the enjoyment of the format.
  • Reply 188 of 4650
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by shetline View Post


    True, but if you find your movie viewing frequently interrupted by the need to pop a disc out and clean it because some trivial smudge or dust fleck you didn't notice when you put it in, and/or you have to ritually clean your Blu-Ray discs before every playing, like an audiophile playing vinyl, in order to avoid such interruptions, it would detract from the enjoyment of the format.







    IMHO, both formats will suffer the same dust/oil issues, both formats will need some handling care, both HD formats will have to pass the rugrat "tests."



    IMHO, playability due to lack of scratching potential appears to favor Blu-Ray. In my own rugrat testing of DVD's, it's the animations that get hit hardest, and I can always remove the dust/oils, but for some reason I can't easily remove the 10's of thousands of sub-hairline scratches that occurs when draged across a carpet.



  • Reply 189 of 4650
    bitemymacbitemymac Posts: 1,147member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Guartho View Post




    Lurking in these threads I've gotten a bit confused.. (imagine that) Can BluRay players play DVD or not? Or is it an option that the manufacturer decides whether or not to include? I think I've heard/read it both ways. If not then there's a pretty big "could win" for HD.



    When I go HD I'll start buying HD, but there are plenty of my current titles that aren't worth re-buying, especially if my new player is any good at upscaling.



    Any standalone BD or HD-DVD players would do a good job upscalling SD-DVD's, however, PS3 does not. The PS3 SD-DVD playback is known to be as good as PS2, which means it is terrible SD-DVD player, however xbox360 HD-DVD add on does great job upscaling SD-DVD's to 1080p via VGA.



    Anyway, 2nd Gen HD-XA2 was just released and is supposed to be king of all optical players. It's equipped with HQV REON video processor under the hood and have been very well received and have had claims that it even improves HD-DVD performance as well as top notch SD-DVD upscalling playback. The MSRP is $999, but the street price is currently running around $799 to $899. Hehe.... hopefully, I can find a shelf space for this toy.
  • Reply 190 of 4650
    bitemymacbitemymac Posts: 1,147member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by franksargent View Post






    IMHO, both formats will suffer the same dust/oil issues, both formats will need some handling care, both HD formats will have to pass the rugrat "tests."



    IMHO, playability due to lack of scratching potential appears to favor Blu-Ray. In my own rugrat testing of DVD's, it's the animations that get hit hardest, and I can always remove the dust/oils, but for some reason I can't easily remove the 10's of thousands of sub-hairline scratches that occurs when draged across a carpet.







    Haha.... you just need a player that can play even the dirt....



    I have tons of DVD's with such abuse from my little one and Oppo and $120 Pioneer DV-578A still plays them. It's funny that alot more expansive Denon won't.
  • Reply 191 of 4650
    shetlineshetline Posts: 4,695member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by franksargent View Post


    IMHO, both formats will suffer the same dust/oil issues, both formats will need some handling care, both HD formats will have to pass the rugrat "tests."



    This is all guesswork here with a lack of hard data on real-world performance. While both formats will suffer from both issues, my guess is that Blu-Ray will suffer more from dust and smudges than HD DVD will suffer those things. HD DVD, while not as scratch resistant, will be able to shrug off light scratching, whereas if something does manage to scratch the hard coat of a Blu-Ray disc, the disc will be toast. HD DVD stands a much better chance of being salvageable by polishing out those scratches which can't immediately be shrugged off -- it should be fairly close to DVD in this regard, and on a handful of occasions I've gotten passed scratched DVD rentals with a little gentle application of toothpaste to polish out scratches.
  • Reply 192 of 4650
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bitemymac View Post


    Haha.... you just need a player that can play even the dirt....



    I have tons of DVD's with such abuse from my little one and Oppo and $120 Pioneer DV-578A still plays them. It's funny that alot more expansive Denon won't.







    There is definitely some truth there, I've owned 5 DVD stand alone players, and some are much better at playing "damaged" discs.



  • Reply 193 of 4650
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by shetline View Post


    This is all guesswork here with a lack of hard data on real-world performance. While both formats will suffer from both issues, my guess is that Blu-Ray will suffer more from dust and smudges than HD DVD will suffer those things. HD DVD, while not as scratch resistant, will be able to shrug off light scratching, whereas if something does manage to scratch the hard coat of a Blu-Ray disc, the disc will be toast. HD DVD stands a much better chance of being salvageable by polishing out those scratches which can't immediately be shrugged off -- it should be fairly close to DVD in this regard, and on a handful of occasions I've gotten passed scratched DVD rentals with a little gentle application of toothpaste to polish out scratches.







    Changing the subject "slightly," that's one reason I'm against DRM (in general) and for the "fair use" principle, make copies, give the rugrats the copy, let them have at it. Another reason that I don't like the current HD formats, I can't make copies.



    PS - I've never had much success removing scratches from DVD's, coatings don't work and polishing seems to take forever, but I've never tried toothpaste, I'll give that a go the next time I have a scratch related playability issue.



  • Reply 194 of 4650
    marzetta7marzetta7 Posts: 1,323member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Guartho View Post


    Anybody here getting BluRay discs from Netflix? I've had a lot of DVDs from Netflix that looked horribly scuffed etc, but played beautifully. The only ones I had that wouldn't play right were physically cracked all the way through.



    I imagine if BluRay discs can survive NetFlix they'll have good home reliability.



    Here are some experiences with Blu-ray discs with Netflix...



    http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread....hlight=netflix



    You'll also notice that an aquaintance of one of the posters seems to have had a lot of trouble with the playability of the HD DVD discs while the Blu-ray discs appear to all playback flawlessly.
  • Reply 195 of 4650
    marzetta7marzetta7 Posts: 1,323member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by shetline View Post


    This is all guesswork here with a lack of hard data on real-world performance. While both formats will suffer from both issues, my guess is that Blu-Ray will suffer more from dust and smudges than HD DVD will suffer those things. HD DVD, while not as scratch resistant, will be able to shrug off light scratching, whereas if something does manage to scratch the hard coat of a Blu-Ray disc, the disc will be toast. HD DVD stands a much better chance of being salvageable by polishing out those scratches which can't immediately be shrugged off -- it should be fairly close to DVD in this regard, and on a handful of occasions I've gotten passed scratched DVD rentals with a little gentle application of toothpaste to polish out scratches.



    It's hard to say what the heck you are going to scratch your disc with worse than a screwdriver, but if Blu-ray discs can still have flawless playback after a determined attack from such, I'd say a good hypothesis is that Blu-ray stands a much better chance in terms of reliability and durability than HD DVD which again employs the same protection as DVD (so much for technical innovation)...



    http://news.com.com/Try+scratching+t...3-5455621.html



    Furthermore, I'd say smudges, fingerprints, dust, and in the above case, ink, don't appear to give Blu-ray any playback problems so I'd say it is the least of you worries as compared to scratches.
  • Reply 196 of 4650
    marzetta7marzetta7 Posts: 1,323member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by franksargent View Post






    Changing the subject "slightly," that's one reason I'm against DRM (in general) and for the "fair use" principle, make copies, give the rugrats the copy, let them have at it. Another reason that I don't like the current HD formats, I can't make copies.



    Yet...hopefully Blu-ray and HD DVD will start to employ Mandatory Managed copy that would allow us to make copies for our rugrats... I think the first to incorporate this feature would definitely help their cause.
  • Reply 197 of 4650
    shetlineshetline Posts: 4,695member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post


    http://news.com.com/Try+scratching+t...3-5455621.html



    Furthermore, I'd say smudges, fingerprints, dust, and in the above case, ink, don't appear to give Blu-ray any playback problems so I'd say it is the least of you worries as compared to scratches.



    From what I can tell, they torture tested a DVD using the same coating that will go onto Blu-Ray disc. That's not the same as torture testing a Blu-Ray disc, however, not by far. That DVD looks far from being unmarked by the onslaught it suffered. Just because data can still be read which is 0.6 mm below that mucked-up surface doesn't mean that Blu-Ray's much smaller data pits, resting only 0.1 mm below such a mess, could be read.



    The depth of the data surface for DVD (which is the same for HD DVD) allows the playback laser to be very broad where it strikes the surface of the disc, often shining around mild scratches, dust, and dirt, coming to a sharp focus on the much smaller data pits after passing surface obstacles.



    With Blu-Ray's data so close to the discs surface at 0.1 mm, it's much harder for a laser to "look around" surface defects at the data layer which is so much closer to those defects.



    Show me similar torture tests done to an actual Blu-Ray disc, and I'll be much more impressed.
  • Reply 198 of 4650
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,026member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bitemymac View Post


    Any standalone BD or HD-DVD players would do a good job upscalling SD-DVD's, however, PS3 does not. The PS3 SD-DVD playback is known to be as good as PS2, which means it is terrible SD-DVD player, however xbox360 HD-DVD add on does great job upscaling SD-DVD's to 1080p via VGA.



    Anyway, 2nd Gen HD-XA2 was just released and is supposed to be king of all optical players. It's equipped with HQV REON video processor under the hood and have been very well received and have had claims that it even improves HD-DVD performance as well as top notch SD-DVD upscalling playback. The MSRP is $999, but the street price is currently running around $799 to $899. Hehe.... hopefully, I can find a shelf space for this toy.



    I don't know about SDs, but PS3 is apparently supposed to have superb picture quality for Blu-Ray movies.
  • Reply 199 of 4650
    bitemymacbitemymac Posts: 1,147member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    I don't know about SDs, but PS3 is apparently supposed to have superb picture quality for Blu-Ray movies.



    Only when it outputs 1080i or 1080p from 1080p24 source on the BD. It does not scale well up or down. Some 768p or 720p displays have decent deinterlacer and scaler to manage 1080i, but many older sets do not and will be an issue if they can tell.
  • Reply 200 of 4650
    glossgloss Posts: 506member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by shetline View Post


    I have two HD DVDs from Netflix -- my first Netflix discs of any kind -- waiting to be viewed this weekend after showing up in the mail this week. It'll be interesting to see what shape they're in and how well they play too.



    Netflix is magic. You'll like it.
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