I will back frank up on this one 100%. Sony has a FLAWED history with media. I understand his PoV completely. I believe I brought this up in the 2006 thread.
Wow...that really sucks. HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, I want neither to try to sell me stuff. I'm not thrilled with the sometimes non-optional previews on DVDs either. That's not "extra content"...that's an extra revenue stream that annoys the heck out of me.
I will back frank up on this one 100%. Sony has a FLAWED history with media. I understand his PoV completely. I believe I brought this up in the 2006 thread.
Betamax - failure
Betacam - big success (pro format)
Compact disc (w/ Phillips) - huge success
DAT - failure in consumer market, huge success in pro market
DVD (part of large group of companies) - huge success
Minidisk - huge failure, except in Japan where it was popular
SACD - all formats failed in this format war for high end audio
memory sticks - only used in Sony products, but they make money
UMD - failure outside of PSP games
Blu-ray - likely to win current format war.
I would say that they have a pretty good track record, just not a perfect one.
DAT - failure in consumer market, huge success in pro market
DVD (part of large group of companies) - huge success
Minidisk - huge failure, except in Japan where it was popular
SACD - all formats failed in this format war for high end audio
memory sticks - only used in Sony products, but they make money
UMD - failure outside of PSP games
Blu-ray - likely to win current format war.
I would say that they have a pretty good track record, just not a perfect one.
Sony can hardly take a huge part of credit for CD. Were they early on board? Yes. But that's like saying Panasonic's blu-ray were a huge success. Panasonic didn't create / own the rights to Blu-ray and Sony didn't create / own the rights to CD. They were just there to make players early on. They didn't own the IP to it.
Same goes with DVD.
And memorystick???? LOLOLOLOL that was a nice attempted swing. It is ONLY used in Sony products. The only reason it is semi popular is because Sony puts out a lot of products. Prices and form factor it fails on multiple levels.
So the new updated list wiht JUST Sony products:
Betamax - failure
Betacam - big success (pro format)
DAT - failure in consumer market, huge success in pro market
Minidisk - huge failure, except in Japan where it was popular
SACD - all formats failed in this format war for high end audio
memory sticks - Failed compared to other media (CF, SD, MiniSD, etc)
UMD - failure outside of PSP games
Blu-ray - might win current format war, could co-exist with HD-DVD.
That leaves 1 success in their history for media THEY created. And that was a success in a PRO market. Not a consumer one. Again I back frank up on his claims 100%.
I wonder why their first poster child for this technology isn't Fight Club and the scene detailing the furniture in the apartment..
The more I think it over, I think it might be a smart move.
Evan A. isn't a blockbuster, and should serve nicely as a proof-of-concept vehicle to see how this kind of thing will work in the real world. They need to strike a balance between having the feature available, and messing up the movie experience.
Once that's analysed, the next studio to put out a Jennifer Aniston film will make a bundle selling every outfit she wears to women.
Hitachi has revealed that they have developed a four-layer Blu-ray disc capable of storing 100GB of data. While this has been successfully proven in the laboratories by other companies, Hitachi claims that current Blu-ray drives would only require a firmware upgrade to be compatible, rather than a specialized drive other companies are promoting.
They are still working on stabilizing the signal quality further before releasing the product to the public, but a consumer ready product may not be far off. The company is also working on an eight-layer disc using the same technique, but is having difficulty with the laser penetrating each layer. The reflective quality of each layer diffuses the laser, making it difficult to read top layers. They are currently working on a solution they hope will rectify that issue.
100GB. Perfect for home movie archiving, and a perfect compliment to those TV series being sold on Blu-ray.
I'll take a break from beating on Sony to make a few points:
1. This war has been very good for consumers. Without the high stakes one-upmanship being practices by both sides, we'd be nowhere near 100GB in capacity. And J6P hasn't bought in to either format, so no one outside of the early adopter set has actually lost any money.
2. Apple has been right to stay out of the game so far. If this Hitachi news is true, they may even stay out till this is ready. MWSF may not offer integrated drives after all.
3. BD-100 is good news because it doesn't require a revamp of the production line. Assuming this actually emerges from the labs and goes into production, HD-DVD will need to respond.
Seems like a mixed, and mostly negative result for consumers to me.
I'm guessing we'd be seeing a whole lot more HD movies titles available by now, and a lot more player penetration into consumers' homes, if there had been one clear, undisputed standard. The computer data storage market could have taken care of providing an incentive to push for higher data capacities, even with only one basic format in play.
I'll take a break from beating on Sony to make a few points:
1. This war has been very good for consumers. Without the high stakes one-upmanship being practices by both sides, we'd be nowhere near 100GB in capacity. And J6P hasn't bought in to either format, so no one outside of the early adopter set has actually lost any money.
While I agree with you that the relatively quick drop in prices can be attibuted to the competition between Blu-ray and HD DVD, I do not agree in that this has somehow has forced Blu-ray to make technological advances in the form of 100 GB discs. Blu-ray has had working 100 GB prototype discs for quite some time--First TDK and now Hitachi. TDK has even had working 200GB discs as well for a while. So, I think your are trying to give HD DVD more credit than it really deserves, as Blu-ray was already had these high capacity discs for quite some time, despite the the high stakes of one-upmanship recently.
Quote:
2. Apple has been right to stay out of the game so far. If this Hitachi news is true, they may even stay out till this is ready. MWSF may not offer integrated drives after all.
Why would they stay out of the game longer if a firmware upgrade is all that is needed to read such discs? I still think Apple will be MFDing come January.
Quote:
3. BD-100 is good news because it doesn't require a revamp of the production line. Assuming this actually emerges from the labs and goes into production, HD-DVD will need to respond.
I agree it is good news. The only thing HD DVD is capable of responding with is TL51...and they have yet to showcase even a working prototype of this disc.
BTW, just to add some more news, TDK, Hitachi, and Panasonic have this news in regards to Blu-ray technology, improved write speeds, etc...
Prototypes of TDK's new BD-R discs capable of recording at the 6x speed, reading of 100GB BD-Rs as well as new laser diodes for 8x BD-R recording were exhibited at CEATEC 2007.
TDK's 100 Quad-layer BD-R
TDK showcased a new BD-Rs at its booth, featuring four layers and capacities of 100GB.
Instead of phase-change or a dye layer, TDK has applied a Cu/Si bilayer as a recording medium for the new discs. Under the impact of the laser pulse while disc recording, the two layers will mix, thus creating a recorded mark having a reflectivity that differs markedly from its non-irradiated environment. TDK claims that the new disc features good overall optical characteristics and that the introduced jitter is low enough (<6.5%) to allow for safe recording at 6x. Note that the physical limit for the BD-R recording speed is the 12x, mainly defined by the maximum rotational speed of the disc (10800 rpm).
Recording at 6x means that 25GB of data will be stored on a BD-R disc in less than 16 minutes.
Although the Blu-Ray Disc Association has not yet included the 6x recording speed for Blu-Ray, TDK said that the new 6x BD-R media is at the final stage of their engineering development.
Multi-layer BD-R reproduction by Hitachi
At the same event, Hitachi showcased a prototype optical disc device capable of reading 4-layer Blu-Ray discs (100GB). Hitachi said, that developing this technology required a drive capable of detecting which layer to read. The company has not specified how the pickup lens actually detects the readout layer, but reportedly explored a wide variety of methods including a very basic way, in which the pickup lens finds a targeted layer by scanning each layer in order of shorter distance from the optical head.
Multi-layer discs are harder to read since the information is stored on stacked recording layers, limiting the amplitude of the reflective/penetrable signal required for reading/recording. As a result, the laser light that reaches the photo detector of a reader for example, is very weak to allow for accurate retrieving of the stored data.
For future devices that read multi-layered Blu-Ray discs, the Japanese company examines the possibility to use an optical system that is able to amplify the read-back signal of a optical disc, allowing the efficient reproduction. To solve this issue, Hitachi technology allows for recovering and amplifying the weak optical signal that includes the data information in the reading process of a multi-layer optical disc. Hitachi said that the technology amplifies the reading signal by 10 times. As a result, up to 4~8 layers can be read/recorded, which means that a disc with a capacity of 100~200 GB can become a reality when using a purple/blue wavelength.
Hitachi said that it will be able to commercialize the new optical technology in 2009.
Panasonic Laser Diode For 8x BD Recording
Panasonic showcased the basic components of a future 8x Blu-Ray burner, including a 405nm, 250 mW Blue laser diode capable of offering recordings on Blu-Ray media at 8x. The company said that an 8x Blu-Ray burner is under development followed by a 12x one in the future.
Would you buy it at $10-20/disc as a writable storage media if it's availabe today?
Why not? it would be cost-competitive with current hard drives at $20 for 100GB since 500GB drives are $100. It would be an even better deal at half that. So it would be a little slow. I can do my backups overnight.
Regardless of any histories and hypotheses of things to come, at the local BestBuy I noticed that they offered Blu-ray players from Samsung, Sony, and LG, but only Toshiba was offered for HD-DVD. The prices, as I'm sure we all know, aren't too far apart.
I know many people here have partisan views on this -- frankly, it stopped mattering to me a few months ago -- but take it for what it is. Over the last few months the Blu-ray principals definitely have managed to develop a superior sales-channel for their hardware.
^^^Despite the day and date release of knocked up, Blu-ray was able to still maintain the lead for another week. I think Transformers is HD DVD best week to actually win one week in 07, unless the BDA has something up their sleeve.
^^^Despite the day and date release of knocked up, Blu-ray was able to still maintain the lead for another week. I think Transformers is HD DVD best week to actually win one week in 07, unless the BDA has something up their sleeve.
At this juncture, I'm hoping that both formats can maintain a 40% or greater sales share indefinitely, in which case combo players will become the answer.
Comments
I'm cool with the former (Microsoft messing with the PS3 strategy)
In other words, you have an irrational and insurmountable hatred of Sony, just as Marzetta said.
Looks like HD-DVD has decided to embrace this whole 'Internet' thing.
Wow, that's going to suck.
I wonder why their first poster child for this technology isn't Fight Club and the scene detailing the furniture in the apartment..
Looks like HD-DVD has decided to embrace this whole 'Internet' thing.
Wow...that really sucks. HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, I want neither to try to sell me stuff. I'm not thrilled with the sometimes non-optional previews on DVDs either. That's not "extra content"...that's an extra revenue stream that annoys the heck out of me.
I will back frank up on this one 100%. Sony has a FLAWED history with media. I understand his PoV completely. I believe I brought this up in the 2006 thread.
Betamax - failure
Betacam - big success (pro format)
Compact disc (w/ Phillips) - huge success
DAT - failure in consumer market, huge success in pro market
DVD (part of large group of companies) - huge success
Minidisk - huge failure, except in Japan where it was popular
SACD - all formats failed in this format war for high end audio
memory sticks - only used in Sony products, but they make money
UMD - failure outside of PSP games
Blu-ray - likely to win current format war.
I would say that they have a pretty good track record, just not a perfect one.
Betamax - failure
Betacam - big success (pro format)
Compact disc (w/ Phillips) - huge success
DAT - failure in consumer market, huge success in pro market
DVD (part of large group of companies) - huge success
Minidisk - huge failure, except in Japan where it was popular
SACD - all formats failed in this format war for high end audio
memory sticks - only used in Sony products, but they make money
UMD - failure outside of PSP games
Blu-ray - likely to win current format war.
I would say that they have a pretty good track record, just not a perfect one.
Sony can hardly take a huge part of credit for CD. Were they early on board? Yes. But that's like saying Panasonic's blu-ray were a huge success. Panasonic didn't create / own the rights to Blu-ray and Sony didn't create / own the rights to CD. They were just there to make players early on. They didn't own the IP to it.
Same goes with DVD.
And memorystick???? LOLOLOLOL that was a nice attempted swing. It is ONLY used in Sony products. The only reason it is semi popular is because Sony puts out a lot of products. Prices and form factor it fails on multiple levels.
So the new updated list wiht JUST Sony products:
Betamax - failure
Betacam - big success (pro format)
DAT - failure in consumer market, huge success in pro market
Minidisk - huge failure, except in Japan where it was popular
SACD - all formats failed in this format war for high end audio
memory sticks - Failed compared to other media (CF, SD, MiniSD, etc)
UMD - failure outside of PSP games
Blu-ray - might win current format war, could co-exist with HD-DVD.
That leaves 1 success in their history for media THEY created. And that was a success in a PRO market. Not a consumer one. Again I back frank up on his claims 100%.
Wow, that's going to suck.
I wonder why their first poster child for this technology isn't Fight Club and the scene detailing the furniture in the apartment..
The more I think it over, I think it might be a smart move.
Evan A. isn't a blockbuster, and should serve nicely as a proof-of-concept vehicle to see how this kind of thing will work in the real world. They need to strike a balance between having the feature available, and messing up the movie experience.
Once that's analysed, the next studio to put out a Jennifer Aniston film will make a bundle selling every outfit she wears to women.
http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=559&page=1
Hitachi has revealed that they have developed a four-layer Blu-ray disc capable of storing 100GB of data. While this has been successfully proven in the laboratories by other companies, Hitachi claims that current Blu-ray drives would only require a firmware upgrade to be compatible, rather than a specialized drive other companies are promoting.
They are still working on stabilizing the signal quality further before releasing the product to the public, but a consumer ready product may not be far off. The company is also working on an eight-layer disc using the same technique, but is having difficulty with the laser penetrating each layer. The reflective quality of each layer diffuses the laser, making it difficult to read top layers. They are currently working on a solution they hope will rectify that issue.
1. This war has been very good for consumers. Without the high stakes one-upmanship being practices by both sides, we'd be nowhere near 100GB in capacity. And J6P hasn't bought in to either format, so no one outside of the early adopter set has actually lost any money.
2. Apple has been right to stay out of the game so far. If this Hitachi news is true, they may even stay out till this is ready. MWSF may not offer integrated drives after all.
3. BD-100 is good news because it doesn't require a revamp of the production line. Assuming this actually emerges from the labs and goes into production, HD-DVD will need to respond.
This war has been very good for consumers.
Seems like a mixed, and mostly negative result for consumers to me.
I'm guessing we'd be seeing a whole lot more HD movies titles available by now, and a lot more player penetration into consumers' homes, if there had been one clear, undisputed standard. The computer data storage market could have taken care of providing an incentive to push for higher data capacities, even with only one basic format in play.
I'll take a break from beating on Sony to make a few points:
1. This war has been very good for consumers. Without the high stakes one-upmanship being practices by both sides, we'd be nowhere near 100GB in capacity. And J6P hasn't bought in to either format, so no one outside of the early adopter set has actually lost any money.
While I agree with you that the relatively quick drop in prices can be attibuted to the competition between Blu-ray and HD DVD, I do not agree in that this has somehow has forced Blu-ray to make technological advances in the form of 100 GB discs. Blu-ray has had working 100 GB prototype discs for quite some time--First TDK and now Hitachi. TDK has even had working 200GB discs as well for a while. So, I think your are trying to give HD DVD more credit than it really deserves, as Blu-ray was already had these high capacity discs for quite some time, despite the the high stakes of one-upmanship recently.
2. Apple has been right to stay out of the game so far. If this Hitachi news is true, they may even stay out till this is ready. MWSF may not offer integrated drives after all.
Why would they stay out of the game longer if a firmware upgrade is all that is needed to read such discs? I still think Apple will be MFDing come January.
3. BD-100 is good news because it doesn't require a revamp of the production line. Assuming this actually emerges from the labs and goes into production, HD-DVD will need to respond.
I agree it is good news. The only thing HD DVD is capable of responding with is TL51...and they have yet to showcase even a working prototype of this disc.
BTW, just to add some more news, TDK, Hitachi, and Panasonic have this news in regards to Blu-ray technology, improved write speeds, etc...
http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News...x?NewsId=21537
Prototypes of TDK's new BD-R discs capable of recording at the 6x speed, reading of 100GB BD-Rs as well as new laser diodes for 8x BD-R recording were exhibited at CEATEC 2007.
TDK's 100 Quad-layer BD-R
TDK showcased a new BD-Rs at its booth, featuring four layers and capacities of 100GB.
Instead of phase-change or a dye layer, TDK has applied a Cu/Si bilayer as a recording medium for the new discs. Under the impact of the laser pulse while disc recording, the two layers will mix, thus creating a recorded mark having a reflectivity that differs markedly from its non-irradiated environment. TDK claims that the new disc features good overall optical characteristics and that the introduced jitter is low enough (<6.5%) to allow for safe recording at 6x. Note that the physical limit for the BD-R recording speed is the 12x, mainly defined by the maximum rotational speed of the disc (10800 rpm).
Recording at 6x means that 25GB of data will be stored on a BD-R disc in less than 16 minutes.
Although the Blu-Ray Disc Association has not yet included the 6x recording speed for Blu-Ray, TDK said that the new 6x BD-R media is at the final stage of their engineering development.
Multi-layer BD-R reproduction by Hitachi
At the same event, Hitachi showcased a prototype optical disc device capable of reading 4-layer Blu-Ray discs (100GB). Hitachi said, that developing this technology required a drive capable of detecting which layer to read. The company has not specified how the pickup lens actually detects the readout layer, but reportedly explored a wide variety of methods including a very basic way, in which the pickup lens finds a targeted layer by scanning each layer in order of shorter distance from the optical head.
Multi-layer discs are harder to read since the information is stored on stacked recording layers, limiting the amplitude of the reflective/penetrable signal required for reading/recording. As a result, the laser light that reaches the photo detector of a reader for example, is very weak to allow for accurate retrieving of the stored data.
For future devices that read multi-layered Blu-Ray discs, the Japanese company examines the possibility to use an optical system that is able to amplify the read-back signal of a optical disc, allowing the efficient reproduction. To solve this issue, Hitachi technology allows for recovering and amplifying the weak optical signal that includes the data information in the reading process of a multi-layer optical disc. Hitachi said that the technology amplifies the reading signal by 10 times. As a result, up to 4~8 layers can be read/recorded, which means that a disc with a capacity of 100~200 GB can become a reality when using a purple/blue wavelength.
Hitachi said that it will be able to commercialize the new optical technology in 2009.
Panasonic Laser Diode For 8x BD Recording
Panasonic showcased the basic components of a future 8x Blu-Ray burner, including a 405nm, 250 mW Blue laser diode capable of offering recordings on Blu-Ray media at 8x. The company said that an 8x Blu-Ray burner is under development followed by a 12x one in the future.
Cost??? 50gb are already an arm and a leg and most blu-ray movies are on 25gb... Cost???
the real requestion is....... who is this for?....the BD100
bragging rights on the vaporeware or is it going to materialize and be offered to the consumers at realistic prices....
Would you buy it at $10-20/disc as a writable storage media if it's availabe today?
Would you buy it at $10-20/disc as a writable storage media if it's availabe today?
Why not? it would be cost-competitive with current hard drives at $20 for 100GB since 500GB drives are $100. It would be an even better deal at half that. So it would be a little slow. I can do my backups overnight.
I know many people here have partisan views on this -- frankly, it stopped mattering to me a few months ago -- but take it for what it is. Over the last few months the Blu-ray principals definitely have managed to develop a superior sales-channel for their hardware.
the real requestion is....... who is this for?....the BD100
bragging rights on the vaporeware or is it going to materialize and be offered to the consumers at realistic prices....
Would you buy it at $10-20/disc as a writable storage media if it's availabe today?
Whats the 51GB TL HD-DVD for? bragging rights? its more vaporeware than BDs 50BG discs that ARE SHIPPING.
Fairly good price as pointed out, in comparison to HDD prices, and the cost of the discs will only fall!
the real requestion is....... who is this for?....the BD100
bragging rights on the vaporeware or is it going to materialize and be offered to the consumers at realistic prices....
Would you buy it at $10-20/disc as a writable storage media if it's availabe today?
Cost of the BD100 will go down significantly over time. It's promising to see that 100GB is possible for the future of the format.
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/ques...0707/index.php
WE: BD-54% HDD-46% YTD: BD-66% HDD-34% SI: BD-61% HDD-39%
^^^Despite the day and date release of knocked up, Blu-ray was able to still maintain the lead for another week. I think Transformers is HD DVD best week to actually win one week in 07, unless the BDA has something up their sleeve.
Nielsen/VideoScan Numbers ending September 30th
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/ques...0707/index.php
WE: BD-54% HDD-46% YTD: BD-66% HDD-34% SI: BD-61% HDD-39%
^^^Despite the day and date release of knocked up, Blu-ray was able to still maintain the lead for another week. I think Transformers is HD DVD best week to actually win one week in 07, unless the BDA has something up their sleeve.
At this juncture, I'm hoping that both formats can maintain a 40% or greater sales share indefinitely, in which case combo players will become the answer.