What I find interesting is that you assume this is a market where all things should be equal. It has been said for a long time, including by the major manufacturers, the death of HD-DVD is going to be by its lack of support. It lacks support from movie studios and it lacks support from CE companies and there are no signs that is going to change and increasingly it looks that following December's launch of products by the major players Blu-Ray's position is becoming more solid.
The reasons for that don't matter at the end of the day if you buy into HD-DVD you are buying into a format that is less supported.
Sure there are no signs that the lack of CE support is going to change. At CES 2007 The HD DVD Promotions group only announced the plans of 4 vendors to deliver HD DVD product.
Meridian joins the HD DVD Promotions group to work on high end HD DVD product.
Onkyo announces plans to deliver a HD DVD player in North America
Shinco announces plans to deliver a HD DVD player
Alco announces plans to deliver a HD DVD player
ED Digital announces plans to deliver a HD DVD player
Lite On announces plans to deliver a HD DVD player.
Funai mulls over adding HD DVD to their plans of shipping a BD player.
"We've seen strong sales of HD DVD players and movies so far, but using this new platform, companies can produce HD DVD players in record time, resulting in more choices for consumers," said Amir Majidimehr, corporate vice president of the Consumer Media Technology Group at Microsoft. "The power and high integration of BCM7440, combined with the Windows CE 6.0 HD DVD platform, results in even lower cost players for consumers than the high value products already in the market."
The first players incorporating the new platform are expected from manufacturers in the second quarter of this year.
I'll admit that Blu-ray is doing well but let's be honest the Blu-ray movie sales ratios were created in a HD DVD movie vacuum. I believe Blu-ray is firmly in the lead but the goal really is to reduce player pricing and meet the 2 million world wide player sales that HD DVD needs to survive.
Meridian joins the HD DVD Promotions group to work on high end HD DVD product.
Meridian has a history of backing the wrong horse - they didn't support SACD or DVD-A either, but had a third 2nd generation audio format. Also, since their entire product line is based on PCM (their speakers have built in D/A converters) they stand to lose a lot of SACD makes any headway, so they always pick whatever format is opposed to Sony.
Ah.... sound of desperation. If you can't have an open discussion bouncing opposing reasons back and forth without throwing a jab on every opportunity, this is a sign of a pre-adolescent.
yet
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison
You're too busy cheeleading for one side and the only casualty is your character.
my character is brought into question by someone so BLIND from the truth it goes beyond belief.
he also gets away with calling people IDIOTS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison
In the battle of "Lesser of two evils" I choose HD DVD as the format that is best for consumers.
so BOTH the formats are EVIL now......... ok...
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison
Argueing with you folks is pointless really. You all care about being right more than anything.
erm... check the thread title again there...
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison
Kolchak won't buy a HD DVD at any price so says he. What kind of idiot blocks themselves from content in a turf battle they have no vested stake in?
what kind of idiot eh? mmm.. on the one hand you say "lesser of two evils" so neither format is any good REALLY... but ONE of them is worse... so you block yourself off from it... but then to give yourself room to back out, you say you will get a PS3 ANYWAY...
do you have shares in Tosh? i mean what ARE you gonna loose? or gain?
if you want to talk about "IDIOTS" answer this.... why WOULD -ANYONE- invest money into a format at this point, that there is less studio support for, less players AVALIBLE for, is selling LESS movies for and yet COSTS MORE per disc??
when, as has been said before, it is most likely that the hold out studio.. you know, the one distributing BD in other countries, will give in and, at the very LEAST offer movies in BD format, after all im sure with their distribution activities elsewhere they are gaining some interesting data RE sales figures....
still havent refuted that, have you?
and really, for YOU to call the kettle black Re Cheerleading...
you REALLY DO love an argument for arguments sake dont you
why is there no point in arguing with you? because at this point, you REALLY need the wiggle room, its looking like harrasment. i plan on stopping, but then you go and insult people by calling them idiots and implying they have something wrong with their character...
if nothing else this thread is a good laugh, where else can you see the TRUTH twisted so out of shape? well... appart form governments the world over
Blu-ray with its protective covers is more 3 year old resistant than HD-DVD. This is is of no importance to the "HD loving consumer" if there is no cost difference. Given that there is no consumer price difference the advantage is with Blu-ray.
So long as Blu-ray players play DVDs and CDs and are the same cost as HD-DVD players this is a non-issue for "HD loving consumers". Given this will be the case moving forward - no advantage.
So long as Blu-ray discs the same cost as HD-DVD discs this is a non-issue for "HD loving consumers". Given this is the case - no advantage.
PIP and other features will be mandatory after June with Profile 1.1. When Profile 2.0 is mandatory you'll also have network connectivity.
All Blu-ray players have 64KB of storage under Profile 1.0 and 256MB under Profile 1.1.
Currently HD-DVD has an advantage until June 2007. However the majority of Blu-ray players (the PS3) can be upgraded to Profile 2.0.
"Mandatory" 2 ch TrueHD is useless for movie playback.
Given that both HD-DVD and Blu-ray discs will require QA to make sure the interactivity features work this is a non-issue for "HD loving consumers" as the end result is debugged, compiled code or debugged working scripts and XML. Java is likely going to offer more interactivity features than HDi in the long run.
Either no advantage or advantage Blu-Ray.
25k players purchased by early adoptors who know the score. So what? Presumably they did so in order to watch Blu-ray exclusive movies before everyone else.
In any case, for your 5 criteria only 1 is a HD-DVD advantage and that one only temporary for the "HD loving consumer". The long term advantages of hard coat far outweighs that. If the Java advantages that Gosling postulates pans out that's a long term advantage for HD consumers as well.
So your "reasons" are bunk. Your other points "less DRM" and "no region coding" might have merit for the consumer except that the HD-DVD Forum is looking at region coding (excuse me...Region Protection Coding) and both have managed copy. At least Blu-Ray is down to 3 regions. IIRC the HD-DVD forum will move to implement RPC this year.
Vinea
I've usually qualified my statements about cost with statements about Sony's subsidy on disc production for the Majors. Smallers studios don't get this subsidy and this is why Digital Playground and many other Adult studios have gone HD DVD .
Reports from the adult industry exhibition in Las Vegas suggest that all the major adult movie studios are standardising on HD-DVD, citing the lower costs of production as the primary driver ...
But Joone found that no manufacturer would take his content, citing fears that Sony would cancel production licences with any facility printing pornography.
BD pressing plants are limited and honestly if you have a backlog of Majors wanting to pump out thousands of titles do you want to do a "short run" of Adult Films. Cost is a factor here because of hardware and time.
But CEOs should be wary, because what the BDA does not sufficiently address is what lies behind those assertions. The numbers are stark: manufacturing BD discs will require an estimated US$1.7 million cost per manufacturing line. Per line!
Then, each major manufacturing facility would require the implementation of a minimum of two mastering systems, at a minimum cost of US$2 million per system. DVD, at the height of its success, resulted in an estimated 600 manufacturing lines globally. Even allowing for a decline in systems costs over time as the manufacturing base expanded, the tab for radically overhauling the media manufacturing industry would approach a billion dollars worldwide or more. Already-beleaguered CFOs will be challenged to raise?and risk?this significant amount of capital.
Compare this to the estimated cost of retooling for the HD DVD format compared to BD. HD DVD is able to utilize virtually the entire existing manufacturing infrastructure. The cost of upgrading an existing DVD line is about US$150,000?less than a tenth the cost of a BD line. A DVD mastering system can be upgraded for US$145,000. Basically, HD DVD is a DVD-9?a version of DVD we have enormous manufacturing experience with already?with a denser pit structure.
Clearly sans subsidy HD DVD is the more sensible solution if costs ar taken in to account. Just because I can buy a subsidized BD50 from Warner doesn't mean I'll have the same option for a non Major studios. That's important to me because the Sony subsidy will sunset in a few years and if HD DVD is dead you will most likely see this sunsetting result in higher disc prices.
Profile 1.1 players. Vinea that's great that a new profile is coming with specification that are more aligned with HD DVD players that shipped 9 months ago. How ironic..I was frequently told that Blu-ray is superior in EVERY area yet now they have new profiles coming that will obsolete many of the $1000 1st generation standalones. This new profile merely pulls BD hardware up to the point where HD DVD has always been. Don't you find that a bit odd?
TrueHD is useless now for movie playback in 2-channel form. Ok I can understand that but I'm glad it's there and quite honestly supporting 5.1 TrueHD is probably a zero cost feature over 2-channel TrueHD support. Even if a player stuck with 2-channel playback it would make for nice music discs.
HDi vs BD Java- Java has been around how long? Sony is basically using GEM which is already in use in some STB for cable providers yet the level of interactivity on BD titles is poor in comparison to HDi which is a new. Tell me what features you want that can only be done in Java? I know a guy at Microsoft that works on this. I'll be honest ..I don't know the limitation of HDi but I'm not going assume as you have that BD Java by default has more functionality. HDi is working right now fairly well. You'll have to show me what I'm missing or will miss.
25k people with hardware they told was superior and your answer is "So what". That's not a rebuttal that's ignorance. If I had a 1st generation HD DVD player I would still be able to take advantage of ALL interactive discs and the future Networked movies that Universal is working on. And I paid half the price of the standalone Blu-ray. If my logic is off please tell me because I thought that consumers would want to pay less and get a player that lasts longer with more support. Maybe I'm the silly one.
DRM and Region Encoding- RE in HD DVD is relatively futile. By years end there will 2 million players floating around that don't support it. Amir said that these players cannot be retrofitted for RE support. Only new players can have it added. He also said there's little motivation for adding it in the DVD Forum. This, quite honestly, has probably drawn the ire of Disney and Fox which like RE as well as the extra BD+ and ROM Mark of BD. Those are features that don't help me as a consumer enjoy HD movies so they are not a plus in my book. YMMV
Meridian has a history of backing the wrong horse - they didn't support SACD or DVD-A either, but had a third 2nd generation audio format. Also, since their entire product line is based on PCM (their speakers have built in D/A converters) they stand to lose a lot of SACD makes any headway, so they always pick whatever format is opposed to Sony.
And their stuff does not sound that good either.
Excuse me? DVD-A "is" Meridian. Where do you think the codec for DVD-A came from? Does MLP ring a bell? Meridian Lossless Packet.
As for Sony as DSD (Direct Stream Digital) it's dead. Sony doesn't push it in audio mastering suites anymore and it's not showing up in new places. MLP is the basis for Dolby TrueHD so MLP lives on. I'm ecstatic about having Meridian help with HD DVD.
I was wrong from taking my argument and lacing it with personal attacks. Once that happens the ability to effectively debate ends. You guys are certainly not idiots nor do you have poor character. I enjoy debating this subject with you and I will tone down my hyperbole. Thank you for bringing this to light.
Ah.... sound of desperation. If you can't have an open discussion bouncing opposing reasons back and forth without throwing a jab on every opportunity, this is a sign of a pre-adolescent.
Looking back few of your posts just show how angry you are and just ready to argue at every point instead of reasoning and replying in the form of a debate. So, your friends are fifth-graders?(no disrespect intended, just need to clear the status)
The anger is in your own mind. I was stating a straight fact. And, of course, it's a straight fact that you instantly took it to the absurd extreme by saying my knowing one fifth grader means my friends are fifth graders. Par for the course, I guess, after making the unprovable claim that someone is a pre-adolescent. Reductio ad absurdum does not become you. But what else can one expect from a user with the nym, "bitemymac"? That has anger written all over it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison
I've usually qualified my statements about cost with statements about Sony's subsidy on disc production for the Majors. Smallers studios don't get this subsidy and this is why Digital Playground and many other Adult studios have gone HD DVD .
Strange that you make a claim that lack of subsidies is driving away the porn vendors then back it up with an article that claims the reason is porn was "banned from Blu-ray" and makes no mention of subsidies. A ban that was debunked a day after that article.
As for Sony as DSD (Direct Stream Digital) it's dead. Sony doesn't push it in audio mastering suites anymore and it's not showing up in new places. MLP is the basis for Dolby TrueHD so MLP lives on. I'm ecstatic about having Meridian help with HD DVD.
Ah - you are right, Meridian was DVD-A, it was Muse that had the 3rd format. But after sinking money into DVD-A and losing, I question their wisdom about going after HD-DVD. The high end audio market is in the process of dying along with the baby boomers, and tons of high-end audio businesses are going under - Meridian can't have the cash flow for unlimited experiments like this.
Ah - you are right, Meridian was DVD-A, it was Muse that had the 3rd format. But after sinking money into DVD-A and losing, I question their wisdom about going after HD-DVD. The high end audio market is in the process of dying along with the baby boomers, and tons of high-end audio businesses are going under - Meridian can't have the cash flow for unlimited experiments like this.
Agreed. I think Meridian want to help with design (probably the audio areas) but they've shown a reluctance to flat out commit to a player. That makes sense in this battle that looks like it can be potentially fruitless for many companies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak
Strange that you make a claim that lack of subsidies is driving away the porn vendors then back it up with an article that claims the reason is porn was "banned from Blu-ray" and makes no mention of subsidies. A ban that was debunked a day after that article.
I don't agree with the "banned" stuff coming from Joone of DP. This is why I put my own commentary about the Majors taking precedence at the available facilities. I find that it's a business decision for pressing plants. I've never read a Sony or Major studio employee like Paidgeek or CJplay from AVS refute the subsidy. I don't feel the subsidy is wrong. I do worry about the effect on disc pricing when it is gone.
When HD DVD launched I was prepared for it to look inferior. I had read the "reports" from CES 2005 about HD DVD looking smeared and bleeding colors. Then they delivered the players and the first movies looked pretty damn good. It was then that I realized that the more expensive solution wasn't all that necessary. I knew that codecs like VC-1 and AVC would only get better. Good looking movies like Serenity only used 20GB out of the 30. Both platforms can get to lower pricing given enough sales. I just believe that HD DVD gets to where I'd like to see player and movie pricing faster by design.
The anger is in your own mind. I was stating a straight fact. And, of course, it's a straight fact that you instantly took it to the absurd extreme by saying my knowing one fifth grader means my friends are fifth graders. Par for the course, I guess, after making the unprovable claim that someone is a pre-adolescent. Reductio ad absurdum does not become you. But what else can one expect from a user with the nym, "bitemymac"? That has anger written all over it.
This just proves my point. Thanks you. Please, I would be honored to be placed on your ignore list.
Clearly sans subsidy HD DVD is the more sensible solution if costs ar taken in to account. Just because I can buy a subsidized BD50 from Warner doesn't mean I'll have the same option for a non Major studios. That's important to me because the Sony subsidy will sunset in a few years and if HD DVD is dead you will most likely see this sunsetting result in higher disc prices.
Possibly but doubtful since the real competitor is DVD and by that time costs will naturally drop anyway. And the cost issue doesn't seem to affect National Geographic or BBC Video on low volume productions like Relentless Enemies and Planet Earth...both the same price for Blu-ray and HD-DVD (both pretty high too).
Porn producers have been turned away by Blu-ray...so its not just a cost issue as much as a "we don't want your business" issue.
Quote:
Profile 1.1 players. Vinea that's great that a new profile is coming with specification that are more aligned with HD DVD players that shipped 9 months ago. How ironic..I was frequently told that Blu-ray is superior in EVERY area yet now they have new profiles coming that will obsolete many of the $1000 1st generation standalones. This new profile merely pulls BD hardware up to the point where HD DVD has always been. Don't you find that a bit odd?
Not ironic at all. Only the uninformed would assume that thier 1st gen player will stand the test of time. How many folks still use their 1st generation $1000 DVD player? Progressive scan made all of those obsolecent within two years. Even the Sony S7000, which was the very best of the 1st gen players, was stuck at 480i and no DTS in very short order. Many soldiered on given their excellent video quality (longevity was not a trait not shared by the Toshiba 1st gen).
In any case we're still in a transition phase with HDMI moving to 1.3 and from 5.1 to 7.1. Every player today will be obsolecent moving forward (with the possible exception of the PS3) given that the end state will be HDMI 1.3 players sending 7.1 encodes to HDMI 1.3 receivers that can handle 1080p switching from multiple HD sources (which we expect later this year at semi-reasonable prices).
What we have today is a mish-mash of capabilities on both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray side and folks should understand that we're in the same boat as 1996-7.
Quote:
TrueHD is useless now for movie playback in 2-channel form. Ok I can understand that but I'm glad it's there and quite honestly supporting 5.1 TrueHD is probably a zero cost feature over 2-channel TrueHD support. Even if a player stuck with 2-channel playback it would make for nice music discs.
For music discs who cares? TrueHD will sound no different than 2ch Linear PCM. The only advantage is 7.1 vs 5.1 which will be fleeting.
Quote:
HDi vs BD Java- Java has been around how long? Sony is basically using GEM which is already in use in some STB for cable providers yet the level of interactivity on BD titles is poor in comparison to HDi which is a new.
The power or lack thereof of BD-J wont become apparent until Profile 1.1. Profile 1.0 machines can have pretty meager memory. The difference between BJ-J and HDi is roughly the same as that between Java applets and DHTML. ECMAscript has been around since June of 1997.
While neither is particularly new technology the use in this environment is new and BD-J has teething issues. But it doesn't matter for the long haul.
Quote:
Tell me what features you want that can only be done in Java? I know a guy at Microsoft that works on this. I'll be honest ..I don't know the limitation of HDi but I'm not going assume as you have that BD Java by default has more functionality. HDi is working right now fairly well. You'll have to show me what I'm missing or will miss.
I can't which is why I say its a wash or possibly an advantage for Blu-ray based on the differences between applets and DHTML. The devil is in the details and the capabilities of either technology is limited in the long term ability to update either the VM in the case of BD-J or the "browser" for HDi. I haven't looked at the HDi personally so I don't know how much it differs from its Javascript heritage.
But thick client technology has traditionally been richer than thin client technology. At worst it should be a wash. At best BDJ will have the traditional thick vs thin advantage.
Quote:
25k people with hardware they told was superior and your answer is "So what". That's not a rebuttal that's ignorance. If I had a 1st generation HD DVD player I would still be able to take advantage of ALL interactive discs and the future Networked movies that Universal is working on.
Given the history of digital technology your trust in the longevity of your 1st gen hardware is misplaced. 25K people measured against the millions of eventual users isn't really relevant. Especially since all of these are in the early adoptor market segment well aware of the dangers of buying 1st gen anything.
That's not ignorance but reality.
Quote:
And I paid half the price of the standalone Blu-ray. If my logic is off please tell me because I thought that consumers would want to pay less and get a player that lasts longer with more support. Maybe I'm the silly one.
Because they prefer Blu-ray titles? And given the past history of digital devices your confidence in your 1st gen device lasting any significant time seems misplaced. Sure you can make it soldier on...at the cost of new features, better quality at a lower cost for a new device. Toshiba is NOT a in the same league as Sony or Pioneer Elite...not that these two are too great either for Blu-ray at the moment.
Quote:
DRM and Region Encoding- RE in HD DVD is relatively futile. By years end there will 2 million players floating around that don't support it.
A figure not supported by anything in particular but Toshiba projections and no certainty that later 2007 models won't be able to support RE with a firmware upgrade.
Quote:
Those are features that don't help me as a consumer enjoy HD movies so they are not a plus in my book. YMMV
Of course not, but it will also NOT be a HD-DVD advantage over Blu-ray moving past 2007.
So there are in effect no consumer advantages for HD-DVD over Blu-ray while Blu-ray has more studio support and is more durable.
Get'em while they're hot. It's not just Fox but there are a lot of Fox titles that are finally affordable.
Nice find. I'd want to pick up "50 first dates" because my wife would like it, but this means I have to buy PS3 8 months too early. I'll pass, but it's definately a great deal.
So, when can we expect HD-DVD studios to do something this nice for us?... I'm jealous.
My goodness....you guys need to stop talking about this subject. There is no point.....even if you do "win" the argument its not gonna do anything. Just buy what you like.....and support what you like. They both work or they wouldn't be on the market. Just get over it and stop arguing cause its really not important.
My goodness....you guys need to stop talking about this subject. There is no point.....even if you do "win" the argument its not gonna do anything. Just buy what you like.....and support what you like. They both work or they wouldn't be on the market. Just get over it and stop arguing cause its really not important.
I agree but such actions would not be conducive to the health of this messageboard. A bit of verbal jousting makes us all better. If we never articulated out loud why we preferred a particular product then we'd never hear any counterpoints or new ways of viewing.
I've learned something valuable from every poster in this thread and although I may not give them credit I am a better and more informed person because of it.
Mark my words: Both formats will go the way of DivX because their DRM is just as repressive. History has shown that consumers always reject ononerous DRM schemes, even when it appears they have little choice in the matter.
In my opinion Blu Ray is gonna win because not only does it have the backing of Sony, Dell (hell) and apple, its featured in a 600 dollar console(half the price of standalong BD players), and just the sheer amount of memory it can hold.
now, this dosent mean its going to be a massive blow out by blu ray. Look at the hinders its recieved. The ps3 got off to an extremly slow start. Only selling 500,000+ consoles in 3 months. Also the price of the disks, and the lack of good titles, sure it has the backing of hundreds of companys, but the format is lacking good titles. Also HD dvd is hella cheaper, and would apeal more to people because it does have the trusted DVD name in it.
But HD DVD does have its flaws. It has 19gb of storage, but there only so far being used on movies. There arent any games coming out that are on hd dvd. Also there arent hd dvd drives for you computer like blu ray. While there is that external one that M$ has for there awesome 360. But its pretty tricky to use on your desktop
Comments
What I find interesting is that you assume this is a market where all things should be equal. It has been said for a long time, including by the major manufacturers, the death of HD-DVD is going to be by its lack of support. It lacks support from movie studios and it lacks support from CE companies and there are no signs that is going to change and increasingly it looks that following December's launch of products by the major players Blu-Ray's position is becoming more solid.
The reasons for that don't matter at the end of the day if you buy into HD-DVD you are buying into a format that is less supported.
Sure there are no signs that the lack of CE support is going to change. At CES 2007 The HD DVD Promotions group only announced the plans of 4 vendors to deliver HD DVD product.
Meridian joins the HD DVD Promotions group to work on high end HD DVD product.
Onkyo announces plans to deliver a HD DVD player in North America
Shinco announces plans to deliver a HD DVD player
Alco announces plans to deliver a HD DVD player
ED Digital announces plans to deliver a HD DVD player
Lite On announces plans to deliver a HD DVD player.
Funai mulls over adding HD DVD to their plans of shipping a BD player.
http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0114/t.1827.html
Microsoft and Broadcom announce a reference platform based on the Win CE 6.0 and Broadcom BCM7440 chipset.
http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=950071
"We've seen strong sales of HD DVD players and movies so far, but using this new platform, companies can produce HD DVD players in record time, resulting in more choices for consumers," said Amir Majidimehr, corporate vice president of the Consumer Media Technology Group at Microsoft. "The power and high integration of BCM7440, combined with the Windows CE 6.0 HD DVD platform, results in even lower cost players for consumers than the high value products already in the market."
The first players incorporating the new platform are expected from manufacturers in the second quarter of this year.
I'll admit that Blu-ray is doing well but let's be honest the Blu-ray movie sales ratios were created in a HD DVD movie vacuum. I believe Blu-ray is firmly in the lead but the goal really is to reduce player pricing and meet the 2 million world wide player sales that HD DVD needs to survive.
Meridian joins the HD DVD Promotions group to work on high end HD DVD product.
Meridian has a history of backing the wrong horse - they didn't support SACD or DVD-A either, but had a third 2nd generation audio format. Also, since their entire product line is based on PCM (their speakers have built in D/A converters) they stand to lose a lot of SACD makes any headway, so they always pick whatever format is opposed to Sony.
And their stuff does not sound that good either.
Ah.... sound of desperation. If you can't have an open discussion bouncing opposing reasons back and forth without throwing a jab on every opportunity, this is a sign of a pre-adolescent.
yet
You're too busy cheeleading for one side and the only casualty is your character.
my character is brought into question by someone so BLIND from the truth it goes beyond belief.
he also gets away with calling people IDIOTS.
In the battle of "Lesser of two evils" I choose HD DVD as the format that is best for consumers.
so BOTH the formats are EVIL now......... ok...
Argueing with you folks is pointless really. You all care about being right more than anything.
erm... check the thread title again there...
Kolchak won't buy a HD DVD at any price so says he. What kind of idiot blocks themselves from content in a turf battle they have no vested stake in?
what kind of idiot eh? mmm.. on the one hand you say "lesser of two evils" so neither format is any good REALLY... but ONE of them is worse... so you block yourself off from it... but then to give yourself room to back out, you say you will get a PS3 ANYWAY...
do you have shares in Tosh? i mean what ARE you gonna loose? or gain?
if you want to talk about "IDIOTS" answer this.... why WOULD -ANYONE- invest money into a format at this point, that there is less studio support for, less players AVALIBLE for, is selling LESS movies for and yet COSTS MORE per disc??
when, as has been said before, it is most likely that the hold out studio.. you know, the one distributing BD in other countries, will give in and, at the very LEAST offer movies in BD format, after all im sure with their distribution activities elsewhere they are gaining some interesting data RE sales figures....
still havent refuted that, have you?
and really, for YOU to call the kettle black Re Cheerleading...
you REALLY DO love an argument for arguments sake dont you
why is there no point in arguing with you? because at this point, you REALLY need the wiggle room, its looking like harrasment. i plan on stopping, but then you go and insult people by calling them idiots and implying they have something wrong with their character...
if nothing else this thread is a good laugh, where else can you see the TRUTH twisted so out of shape? well... appart form governments the world over
Blu-ray with its protective covers is more 3 year old resistant than HD-DVD. This is is of no importance to the "HD loving consumer" if there is no cost difference. Given that there is no consumer price difference the advantage is with Blu-ray.
So long as Blu-ray players play DVDs and CDs and are the same cost as HD-DVD players this is a non-issue for "HD loving consumers". Given this will be the case moving forward - no advantage.
So long as Blu-ray discs the same cost as HD-DVD discs this is a non-issue for "HD loving consumers". Given this is the case - no advantage.
PIP and other features will be mandatory after June with Profile 1.1. When Profile 2.0 is mandatory you'll also have network connectivity.
All Blu-ray players have 64KB of storage under Profile 1.0 and 256MB under Profile 1.1.
Currently HD-DVD has an advantage until June 2007. However the majority of Blu-ray players (the PS3) can be upgraded to Profile 2.0.
"Mandatory" 2 ch TrueHD is useless for movie playback.
Given that both HD-DVD and Blu-ray discs will require QA to make sure the interactivity features work this is a non-issue for "HD loving consumers" as the end result is debugged, compiled code or debugged working scripts and XML. Java is likely going to offer more interactivity features than HDi in the long run.
Either no advantage or advantage Blu-Ray.
25k players purchased by early adoptors who know the score. So what? Presumably they did so in order to watch Blu-ray exclusive movies before everyone else.
In any case, for your 5 criteria only 1 is a HD-DVD advantage and that one only temporary for the "HD loving consumer". The long term advantages of hard coat far outweighs that. If the Java advantages that Gosling postulates pans out that's a long term advantage for HD consumers as well.
So your "reasons" are bunk. Your other points "less DRM" and "no region coding" might have merit for the consumer except that the HD-DVD Forum is looking at region coding (excuse me...Region Protection Coding) and both have managed copy. At least Blu-Ray is down to 3 regions. IIRC the HD-DVD forum will move to implement RPC this year.
Vinea
I've usually qualified my statements about cost with statements about Sony's subsidy on disc production for the Majors. Smallers studios don't get this subsidy and this is why Digital Playground and many other Adult studios have gone HD DVD .
http://www.pcauthority.com.au/news.aspx?CIaNID=44325
Reports from the adult industry exhibition in Las Vegas suggest that all the major adult movie studios are standardising on HD-DVD, citing the lower costs of production as the primary driver ...
But Joone found that no manufacturer would take his content, citing fears that Sony would cancel production licences with any facility printing pornography.
BD pressing plants are limited and honestly if you have a backlog of Majors wanting to pump out thousands of titles do you want to do a "short run" of Adult Films. Cost is a factor here because of hardware and time.
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paed...xt-gen-dvd.ars
But CEOs should be wary, because what the BDA does not sufficiently address is what lies behind those assertions. The numbers are stark: manufacturing BD discs will require an estimated US$1.7 million cost per manufacturing line. Per line!
Then, each major manufacturing facility would require the implementation of a minimum of two mastering systems, at a minimum cost of US$2 million per system. DVD, at the height of its success, resulted in an estimated 600 manufacturing lines globally. Even allowing for a decline in systems costs over time as the manufacturing base expanded, the tab for radically overhauling the media manufacturing industry would approach a billion dollars worldwide or more. Already-beleaguered CFOs will be challenged to raise?and risk?this significant amount of capital.
Compare this to the estimated cost of retooling for the HD DVD format compared to BD. HD DVD is able to utilize virtually the entire existing manufacturing infrastructure. The cost of upgrading an existing DVD line is about US$150,000?less than a tenth the cost of a BD line. A DVD mastering system can be upgraded for US$145,000. Basically, HD DVD is a DVD-9?a version of DVD we have enormous manufacturing experience with already?with a denser pit structure.
Clearly sans subsidy HD DVD is the more sensible solution if costs ar taken in to account. Just because I can buy a subsidized BD50 from Warner doesn't mean I'll have the same option for a non Major studios. That's important to me because the Sony subsidy will sunset in a few years and if HD DVD is dead you will most likely see this sunsetting result in higher disc prices.
Profile 1.1 players. Vinea that's great that a new profile is coming with specification that are more aligned with HD DVD players that shipped 9 months ago. How ironic..I was frequently told that Blu-ray is superior in EVERY area yet now they have new profiles coming that will obsolete many of the $1000 1st generation standalones. This new profile merely pulls BD hardware up to the point where HD DVD has always been. Don't you find that a bit odd?
TrueHD is useless now for movie playback in 2-channel form. Ok I can understand that but I'm glad it's there and quite honestly supporting 5.1 TrueHD is probably a zero cost feature over 2-channel TrueHD support. Even if a player stuck with 2-channel playback it would make for nice music discs.
HDi vs BD Java- Java has been around how long? Sony is basically using GEM which is already in use in some STB for cable providers yet the level of interactivity on BD titles is poor in comparison to HDi which is a new. Tell me what features you want that can only be done in Java? I know a guy at Microsoft that works on this. I'll be honest ..I don't know the limitation of HDi but I'm not going assume as you have that BD Java by default has more functionality. HDi is working right now fairly well. You'll have to show me what I'm missing or will miss.
25k people with hardware they told was superior and your answer is "So what". That's not a rebuttal that's ignorance. If I had a 1st generation HD DVD player I would still be able to take advantage of ALL interactive discs and the future Networked movies that Universal is working on. And I paid half the price of the standalone Blu-ray. If my logic is off please tell me because I thought that consumers would want to pay less and get a player that lasts longer with more support. Maybe I'm the silly one.
DRM and Region Encoding- RE in HD DVD is relatively futile. By years end there will 2 million players floating around that don't support it. Amir said that these players cannot be retrofitted for RE support. Only new players can have it added. He also said there's little motivation for adding it in the DVD Forum. This, quite honestly, has probably drawn the ire of Disney and Fox which like RE as well as the extra BD+ and ROM Mark of BD. Those are features that don't help me as a consumer enjoy HD movies so they are not a plus in my book. YMMV
Meridian has a history of backing the wrong horse - they didn't support SACD or DVD-A either, but had a third 2nd generation audio format. Also, since their entire product line is based on PCM (their speakers have built in D/A converters) they stand to lose a lot of SACD makes any headway, so they always pick whatever format is opposed to Sony.
And their stuff does not sound that good either.
Excuse me? DVD-A "is" Meridian. Where do you think the codec for DVD-A came from? Does MLP ring a bell? Meridian Lossless Packet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD_Audio read the encoding method on the right side of the page.
As for Sony as DSD (Direct Stream Digital) it's dead. Sony doesn't push it in audio mastering suites anymore and it's not showing up in new places. MLP is the basis for Dolby TrueHD so MLP lives on. I'm ecstatic about having Meridian help with HD DVD.
I was wrong from taking my argument and lacing it with personal attacks. Once that happens the ability to effectively debate ends. You guys are certainly not idiots nor do you have poor character. I enjoy debating this subject with you and I will tone down my hyperbole. Thank you for bringing this to light.
Ah.... sound of desperation. If you can't have an open discussion bouncing opposing reasons back and forth without throwing a jab on every opportunity, this is a sign of a pre-adolescent.
Looking back few of your posts just show how angry you are and just ready to argue at every point instead of reasoning and replying in the form of a debate. So, your friends are fifth-graders?(no disrespect intended, just need to clear the status)
The anger is in your own mind. I was stating a straight fact. And, of course, it's a straight fact that you instantly took it to the absurd extreme by saying my knowing one fifth grader means my friends are fifth graders. Par for the course, I guess, after making the unprovable claim that someone is a pre-adolescent. Reductio ad absurdum does not become you. But what else can one expect from a user with the nym, "bitemymac"? That has anger written all over it.
I've usually qualified my statements about cost with statements about Sony's subsidy on disc production for the Majors. Smallers studios don't get this subsidy and this is why Digital Playground and many other Adult studios have gone HD DVD .
http://www.pcauthority.com.au/news.aspx?CIaNID=44325
Strange that you make a claim that lack of subsidies is driving away the porn vendors then back it up with an article that claims the reason is porn was "banned from Blu-ray" and makes no mention of subsidies. A ban that was debunked a day after that article.
Excuse me? DVD-A "is" Meridian. Where do you think the codec for DVD-A came from? Does MLP ring a bell? Meridian Lossless Packet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD_Audio read the encoding method on the right side of the page.
As for Sony as DSD (Direct Stream Digital) it's dead. Sony doesn't push it in audio mastering suites anymore and it's not showing up in new places. MLP is the basis for Dolby TrueHD so MLP lives on. I'm ecstatic about having Meridian help with HD DVD.
Ah - you are right, Meridian was DVD-A, it was Muse that had the 3rd format. But after sinking money into DVD-A and losing, I question their wisdom about going after HD-DVD. The high end audio market is in the process of dying along with the baby boomers, and tons of high-end audio businesses are going under - Meridian can't have the cash flow for unlimited experiments like this.
Ah - you are right, Meridian was DVD-A, it was Muse that had the 3rd format. But after sinking money into DVD-A and losing, I question their wisdom about going after HD-DVD. The high end audio market is in the process of dying along with the baby boomers, and tons of high-end audio businesses are going under - Meridian can't have the cash flow for unlimited experiments like this.
Agreed. I think Meridian want to help with design (probably the audio areas) but they've shown a reluctance to flat out commit to a player. That makes sense in this battle that looks like it can be potentially fruitless for many companies.
Strange that you make a claim that lack of subsidies is driving away the porn vendors then back it up with an article that claims the reason is porn was "banned from Blu-ray" and makes no mention of subsidies. A ban that was debunked a day after that article.
I don't agree with the "banned" stuff coming from Joone of DP. This is why I put my own commentary about the Majors taking precedence at the available facilities. I find that it's a business decision for pressing plants. I've never read a Sony or Major studio employee like Paidgeek or CJplay from AVS refute the subsidy. I don't feel the subsidy is wrong. I do worry about the effect on disc pricing when it is gone.
When HD DVD launched I was prepared for it to look inferior. I had read the "reports" from CES 2005 about HD DVD looking smeared and bleeding colors. Then they delivered the players and the first movies looked pretty damn good. It was then that I realized that the more expensive solution wasn't all that necessary. I knew that codecs like VC-1 and AVC would only get better. Good looking movies like Serenity only used 20GB out of the 30. Both platforms can get to lower pricing given enough sales. I just believe that HD DVD gets to where I'd like to see player and movie pricing faster by design.
Dave
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right... Oh sorry... Did I say that out-loud?
Dave
You sure did
Sometimes we all play the fool.
The anger is in your own mind. I was stating a straight fact. And, of course, it's a straight fact that you instantly took it to the absurd extreme by saying my knowing one fifth grader means my friends are fifth graders. Par for the course, I guess, after making the unprovable claim that someone is a pre-adolescent. Reductio ad absurdum does not become you. But what else can one expect from a user with the nym, "bitemymac"? That has anger written all over it.
This just proves my point. Thanks you. Please, I would be honored to be placed on your ignore list.
Clearly sans subsidy HD DVD is the more sensible solution if costs ar taken in to account. Just because I can buy a subsidized BD50 from Warner doesn't mean I'll have the same option for a non Major studios. That's important to me because the Sony subsidy will sunset in a few years and if HD DVD is dead you will most likely see this sunsetting result in higher disc prices.
Possibly but doubtful since the real competitor is DVD and by that time costs will naturally drop anyway. And the cost issue doesn't seem to affect National Geographic or BBC Video on low volume productions like Relentless Enemies and Planet Earth...both the same price for Blu-ray and HD-DVD (both pretty high too).
Porn producers have been turned away by Blu-ray...so its not just a cost issue as much as a "we don't want your business" issue.
Profile 1.1 players. Vinea that's great that a new profile is coming with specification that are more aligned with HD DVD players that shipped 9 months ago. How ironic..I was frequently told that Blu-ray is superior in EVERY area yet now they have new profiles coming that will obsolete many of the $1000 1st generation standalones. This new profile merely pulls BD hardware up to the point where HD DVD has always been. Don't you find that a bit odd?
Not ironic at all. Only the uninformed would assume that thier 1st gen player will stand the test of time. How many folks still use their 1st generation $1000 DVD player? Progressive scan made all of those obsolecent within two years. Even the Sony S7000, which was the very best of the 1st gen players, was stuck at 480i and no DTS in very short order. Many soldiered on given their excellent video quality (longevity was not a trait not shared by the Toshiba 1st gen).
In any case we're still in a transition phase with HDMI moving to 1.3 and from 5.1 to 7.1. Every player today will be obsolecent moving forward (with the possible exception of the PS3) given that the end state will be HDMI 1.3 players sending 7.1 encodes to HDMI 1.3 receivers that can handle 1080p switching from multiple HD sources (which we expect later this year at semi-reasonable prices).
What we have today is a mish-mash of capabilities on both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray side and folks should understand that we're in the same boat as 1996-7.
TrueHD is useless now for movie playback in 2-channel form. Ok I can understand that but I'm glad it's there and quite honestly supporting 5.1 TrueHD is probably a zero cost feature over 2-channel TrueHD support. Even if a player stuck with 2-channel playback it would make for nice music discs.
For music discs who cares? TrueHD will sound no different than 2ch Linear PCM. The only advantage is 7.1 vs 5.1 which will be fleeting.
HDi vs BD Java- Java has been around how long? Sony is basically using GEM which is already in use in some STB for cable providers yet the level of interactivity on BD titles is poor in comparison to HDi which is a new.
The power or lack thereof of BD-J wont become apparent until Profile 1.1. Profile 1.0 machines can have pretty meager memory. The difference between BJ-J and HDi is roughly the same as that between Java applets and DHTML. ECMAscript has been around since June of 1997.
While neither is particularly new technology the use in this environment is new and BD-J has teething issues. But it doesn't matter for the long haul.
Tell me what features you want that can only be done in Java? I know a guy at Microsoft that works on this. I'll be honest ..I don't know the limitation of HDi but I'm not going assume as you have that BD Java by default has more functionality. HDi is working right now fairly well. You'll have to show me what I'm missing or will miss.
I can't which is why I say its a wash or possibly an advantage for Blu-ray based on the differences between applets and DHTML. The devil is in the details and the capabilities of either technology is limited in the long term ability to update either the VM in the case of BD-J or the "browser" for HDi. I haven't looked at the HDi personally so I don't know how much it differs from its Javascript heritage.
But thick client technology has traditionally been richer than thin client technology. At worst it should be a wash. At best BDJ will have the traditional thick vs thin advantage.
25k people with hardware they told was superior and your answer is "So what". That's not a rebuttal that's ignorance. If I had a 1st generation HD DVD player I would still be able to take advantage of ALL interactive discs and the future Networked movies that Universal is working on.
Given the history of digital technology your trust in the longevity of your 1st gen hardware is misplaced. 25K people measured against the millions of eventual users isn't really relevant. Especially since all of these are in the early adoptor market segment well aware of the dangers of buying 1st gen anything.
That's not ignorance but reality.
And I paid half the price of the standalone Blu-ray. If my logic is off please tell me because I thought that consumers would want to pay less and get a player that lasts longer with more support. Maybe I'm the silly one.
Because they prefer Blu-ray titles? And given the past history of digital devices your confidence in your 1st gen device lasting any significant time seems misplaced. Sure you can make it soldier on...at the cost of new features, better quality at a lower cost for a new device. Toshiba is NOT a in the same league as Sony or Pioneer Elite...not that these two are too great either for Blu-ray at the moment.
DRM and Region Encoding- RE in HD DVD is relatively futile. By years end there will 2 million players floating around that don't support it.
A figure not supported by anything in particular but Toshiba projections and no certainty that later 2007 models won't be able to support RE with a firmware upgrade.
Those are features that don't help me as a consumer enjoy HD movies so they are not a plus in my book. YMMV
Of course not, but it will also NOT be a HD-DVD advantage over Blu-ray moving past 2007.
So there are in effect no consumer advantages for HD-DVD over Blu-ray while Blu-ray has more studio support and is more durable.
Vinea
http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.htm...cId=1000062781
Get'em while they're hot. It's not just Fox but there are a lot of Fox titles that are finally affordable.
Heads up if you have Blu-ray and you hate Fox's 27 buck price they have about 47 titles available for %50
http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.htm...cId=1000062781
Get'em while they're hot. It's not just Fox but there are a lot of Fox titles that are finally affordable.
Nice find. I'd want to pick up "50 first dates" because my wife would like it, but this means I have to buy PS3 8 months too early. I'll pass, but it's definately a great deal.
So, when can we expect HD-DVD studios to do something this nice for us?... I'm jealous.
My goodness....you guys need to stop talking about this subject. There is no point.....even if you do "win" the argument its not gonna do anything. Just buy what you like.....and support what you like. They both work or they wouldn't be on the market. Just get over it and stop arguing cause its really not important.
I agree but such actions would not be conducive to the health of this messageboard. A bit of verbal jousting makes us all better. If we never articulated out loud why we preferred a particular product then we'd never hear any counterpoints or new ways of viewing.
I've learned something valuable from every poster in this thread and although I may not give them credit I am a better and more informed person because of it.
now, this dosent mean its going to be a massive blow out by blu ray. Look at the hinders its recieved. The ps3 got off to an extremly slow start. Only selling 500,000+ consoles in 3 months. Also the price of the disks, and the lack of good titles, sure it has the backing of hundreds of companys, but the format is lacking good titles. Also HD dvd is hella cheaper, and would apeal more to people because it does have the trusted DVD name in it.
But HD DVD does have its flaws. It has 19gb of storage, but there only so far being used on movies. There arent any games coming out that are on hd dvd. Also there arent hd dvd drives for you computer like blu ray. While there is that external one that M$ has for there awesome 360. But its pretty tricky to use on your desktop