This should be interesting on a broader mega-scale. Europe (and the rest of the world) enjoyng the recent cuff of American hiccups and until now there has not been a recent paradigm of sufficient scale to simplify the line of demarcation between Yankee know-how and the "come-uppance" factor relished by her foes.
Now we have Apple, an unbelievably arrogant (read that American) company who dares to come onto foreign soil and strike the former posture of the Ugly American visiting overseas, insisting everyone speak English.
I had to chuckle at the words ". . . no matter how 'hot' the product" - as if Sony or Erikson or anyone else could leap frog Apple (read that American) technology and offer a reasonable alternative.
No, I am afraid these so-called European operators are about to get a good dose of the very thing they and their ilk have never understood - hegemony has its good aspects as well as its bad. And it takes a good businessman to know the difference and capitalize on the oportunity when his competition is still saying how Apple's demands "simply cannot be justified."
Its either this or just another example where the rest of the world will bite off its nose to spite its face, being iPhoneless - and we who were born on soil outside the U.S. wil once again have our noses pressed up against the candy store window, telling ourselves that we are doing just fine.
But if the iPhone becomes regarded as seriously cool after it's release, the ultra face/hip/cool/techie/status conscious youth of Asia will be all over it like flies on road kill - perceived arrogance or not.
I guess you didn't bother to read my original post (#9, for your reference), where I said: ".....if and when its numbers grow, the service providers will find it in their interest to deal with Apple."
And that's not even true, as that can be done on the phone itself instead of network side.
The only theories I have is that Apple either has features upcoming that they require network support for (and so 'bought' them with iPhone exclusivity) or that the iPhone really costs 500+ dollars to make and so AT&T is indeed subsidizing the iPhone.
It's not like Apple has complete control over the iPhone experience or anything with AT&T, it wouldn't be that much worse if they offered contract free iPhones.
Yes, what of Japan? One can only hope the likes of Apple can negotiate a deal that will finally bring Japan into the 21st century with regard to prepaid and pay-per-use SIM card services. As it stands now, Docomo, AU, SoftBank and the rest of the carriers here refuse to offer SIMs for sale at all. It's a silly money grab to lock people into long term contracts, and the Japanese are so passive (and ignorant of services outside Japan) that they refuse to complain in droves to invoke change here. So as ususual, it will take intense pressure from some entity outside the country before things in Japan change for the better.
Yes, what of Japan? One can only hope the likes of Apple can negotiate a deal that will finally bring Japan into the 21st century with regard to prepaid and pay-per-use SIM card services. As it stands now, Docomo, AU, SoftBank and the rest of the carriers here refuse to offer SIMs for sale at all. It's a silly money grab to lock people into long term contracts, and the Japanese are so passive (and ignorant of services outside Japan) that they refuse to complain in droves to invoke change here. So as ususual, it will take intense pressure from some entity outside the country before things in Japan change for the better.
They'll rent you a SIM .
A top flight Japanese phone[1] costs 600 or more USD just to make. One of the prices you pay for living in the world's most advanced mobile phone market.
However operators believe that customers will not pay $800 for a phone (counting margins, and the like) and so they subsidize them massively.
This means that a) they want that customer locked into them for a couple years via contract (with the advent of number portability) and b) they need to recoup their collective 16 billion USD/year subsidy cost via higher price plans.
The operators hate this, because each phone they sell costs them 600-800 USD (note that current release phones go for a couple hundred USD with contract but current release minus one are free[ish]?and only 4-6 months old).
The manufacturers hate this because the operators not only tell them exactly how to make their phone, but pay virtually nothing above cost to them (the manufacturers are stuck because none of them have managed to market outside Japan and so are forced to rely on the operators).
The people dislike this because they get stuck with plans that cost a lot of money.
Therefore for a pay-as-you-go system to work you'd have to be willing to pay $800 USD for a phone. Are you?
The alternative, and the one that might actually happen, is something like Sweden where you either buy whatever phone/SIM you want outright via pay-as-you-go (expensive, but lets you do whatever you want) or you buy a plan and a phone?and the phone's price is paid monthly as an add-on to your bill.
Upside: Operators get to stop subsidizing phones, manufacturers might actually make money and be able to operate outside Japan, and plans go down in price.
Downside: Phone will cost you a lot, either upfront or via a monthly payment plan added to your mobile bill.
[1] i.e. Mobile TV, GPS chip, mobile wallet, 3G, GSM (for some, and expanding), small (which costs), high res screens, and the like.
Therefore for a pay-as-you-go system to work you'd have to be willing to pay $800 USD for a phone. Are you?
I paid that much in to NTT back in 1994 to get my own telephone number here in Japan. You still have to buy these silly phone bonds for about that much even now. That's why many young people forgo the land land in lieu of a cell phone. And now that you can switch carriers without losing your cell number (a new law made this possible), many more people are ditching the bonds. Yet others still want to have the land line and they pay through the nose for it.
The fact is that the Japanese are willing to pay more than people in any other country for something they really want. Gas is over $5 per gallon thanks to taxes, and melons can cost between $20-$50 each here! So you would be surprised how many would be upwards of $800 for a cell phone, especially the likes of what Apple is producing.
I have one of the most cutting edge SoftBank cell phones that came out just this year. But it's still non-intuitive and extremely limiting compared to what the iPhone promises to be. Sure, my phone is more compact than the iPhone, but I could really get some serious use out of the iPhone versus these low-tech phones we have now in Japan. Yeah, yeah, I can here some people talk about 5MP cameras in phones to try to say how existing phones are better than the iPhone, but that's missing the point. Besides, I've never see any cell phone take good pictures (even the 5MP ones).
Another reason I loath the lack of prepaid and pay-per-use SIMs is that my company is not able to enter the GSM security business because of it. We can build GSM systems for every country but Japan. Sure, the technology will allow us to make a GSM alarm for sale here, but the average Japanese doesn't want to pay a monthly fee for a security system. So we aren't going to manufacture something we know won't be a hit. Hence, we await such a time that we can at long last release a GSM security system that sends an SMS email when the alarm is triggered and the user is only charge one for that one SMS email -- no monthly fees. And even if that one SMS email alone cost an outrageous $5 for only two lines of text, it would still be much cheaper than $5 per month, 12 times per year, every single year! But again, such is only possible when carriers here finally allow SIM card solutions like most other countries.
I also fully agree with you on the user interface (Japanese mobiles suck just as much as everybody else's), but the iPhone lacks GPS, 3G, Mobile TV, over-the-air song downloads, and e-cash?all features that are pretty big motivators in buying a new phone (via What Japan Thinks most recent mobile phone survey) in Japan.
To be fair I suspect both GPS and 3G will be in revision B of the iPhone, over-the-air downloads is a software update away, and a near-field contact e-cash chip would cheap enough to add that it wouldn't matter that no one outside Japan used it.
As for GSM, well Japan doesn't have GSM. I suppose you mean USIM's on NTT DoCoMo or Softbank?. It does kinda suck for you though.
Europe is made up of over 30 countries each with different network providers. Why make it sound like one big country! Apple may think it can dominate the European market with the iPhone but we have far much choice and freedom with our cell networks.
I would never switch networks for the iPhone but as long as Apple want to sell it, they'll have to play by Europe's rules and offer removable SIMs.
That said, I can see it being very popular as long as we aren't treated like the usual 2nd Class customers from US tech companies.
Yes, what of Japan? One can only hope the likes of Apple can negotiate a deal that will finally bring Japan into the 21st century with regard to prepaid and pay-per-use SIM card services. As it stands now, Docomo, AU, SoftBank and the rest of the carriers here refuse to offer SIMs for sale at all. It's a silly money grab to lock people into long term contracts, and the Japanese are so passive (and ignorant of services outside Japan) that they refuse to complain in droves to invoke change here. So as ususual, it will take intense pressure from some entity outside the country before things in Japan change for the better.
If Europe is in the 21st century (and the US, in the 20th) vis-a-vis how mobile companies have consumers by the b411s, Japan -- in my experience as a visitor -- is still stuck in the 19th century.
I am not surprised that Apple has not even mentioned Japan by name, just "Asia" generically.
A top flight Japanese phone[1] costs 600 or more USD just to make. One of the prices you pay for living in the world's most advanced mobile phone market.
However operators believe that customers will not pay $800 for a phone (counting margins, and the like) and so they subsidize them massively.
This means that a) they want that customer locked into them for a couple years via contract (with the advent of number portability) and b) they need to recoup their collective 16 billion USD/year subsidy cost via higher price plans.
The operators hate this, because each phone they sell costs them 600-800 USD (note that current release phones go for a couple hundred USD with contract but current release minus one are free[ish]?and only 4-6 months old).
The manufacturers hate this because the operators not only tell them exactly how to make their phone, but pay virtually nothing above cost to them (the manufacturers are stuck because none of them have managed to market outside Japan and so are forced to rely on the operators).
The people dislike this because they get stuck with plans that cost a lot of money.
Therefore for a pay-as-you-go system to work you'd have to be willing to pay $800 USD for a phone. Are you?
The alternative, and the one that might actually happen, is something like Sweden where you either buy whatever phone/SIM you want outright via pay-as-you-go (expensive, but lets you do whatever you want) or you buy a plan and a phone?and the phone's price is paid monthly as an add-on to your bill.
Upside: Operators get to stop subsidizing phones, manufacturers might actually make money and be able to operate outside Japan, and plans go down in price.
Downside: Phone will cost you a lot, either upfront or via a monthly payment plan added to your mobile bill.
[1] i.e. Mobile TV, GPS chip, mobile wallet, 3G, GSM (for some, and expanding), small (which costs), high res screens, and the like.
The answer to your question is YES! People will pay £800, or equivalent, for a pre paid service as they do already in the UK. You can buy nearly any phone on pre paid as long as you are willing to buy the phone outright. Some people just can't commit to long term contracts so simply buy the phone for a one off fee.
In my experience, people will pay a lot of money for a phone they really want.
My suggestion to Apple: Look at the current European markets and try to integrate smoothly. Locking in contracts or SIMS will not work outside the US.
And that's not even true, as that can be done on the phone itself instead of network side.
Not true, unless you expect the iPhone to auto-download the audio to the iPhone's Flash and then use the corresponding spoken phone numbers to either associate the voicemail with a contact from your address book or display the phone number if no contact current exists.
While I can understand the complaints about being tied to a carrier and having a contract, the simple solution is to not purchase the iPhone. This is a service Apple wanted to offer and it's one that requires interactive work both the carrier and the phone's OS developers.
I can't believe we've gone this long without being able to view and chose our cell phone messages like we can our SMS and email messages. It seems like an obvious inclusion after the fact. I look forward to other innovations between AT&T and Apple, as well as other efforts from other carriers finally working with cell manufacturers. The iPhone will benefit everyone who uses a cell phone, regardless of chosen carrier or hardware vendor
I've been toying with the idea of buying an iPhone is the US as it's quad-band capabilty would allow it to work on the UK GSM networks, but the major thing stands in the way and I'm almost sure of the answer - it's not likely that they're going to allow US customers to buy iPhone SIM-free is it?! Even for silly amounts of money? If they do, I'm there, but sadly I can see myself having to wait until the UK release to grab myself one. Because all I ever here is "compulsory" two-year contract, which kinda poops on the idea and answers the question for me, kinda.
I've been toying with the idea of buying an iPhone is the US as it's quad-band capabilty would allow it to work on the UK GSM networks, but the major thing stands in the way and I'm almost sure of the answer - it's not likely that they're going to allow US customers to buy iPhone SIM-free is it?! Even for silly amounts of money? If they do, I'm there, but sadly I can see myself having to wait until the UK release to grab myself one. Because all I ever here is "compulsory" two-year contract, which kinda poops on the idea and answers the question for me, kinda.
Are you nuts?
Let the Mercans work out the bugs for us. By the time it lands here it might work.
Besides, I've never see any cell phone take good pictures (even the 5MP ones).
Could you please explain your criteria for 'good' because I have taken photos with my SE K750i which I consider to be excellent so I would like to know what you mean.
Could you please explain your criteria for 'good' because I have taken photos with my SE K750i which I consider to be excellent so I would like to know what you mean.
I would imagine it would depend upon your expectations.
Comments
Word. I am so *over*...
Stopped reading...
This should be interesting on a broader mega-scale. Europe (and the rest of the world) enjoyng the recent cuff of American hiccups and until now there has not been a recent paradigm of sufficient scale to simplify the line of demarcation between Yankee know-how and the "come-uppance" factor relished by her foes.
Now we have Apple, an unbelievably arrogant (read that American) company who dares to come onto foreign soil and strike the former posture of the Ugly American visiting overseas, insisting everyone speak English.
I had to chuckle at the words ". . . no matter how 'hot' the product" - as if Sony or Erikson or anyone else could leap frog Apple (read that American) technology and offer a reasonable alternative.
No, I am afraid these so-called European operators are about to get a good dose of the very thing they and their ilk have never understood - hegemony has its good aspects as well as its bad. And it takes a good businessman to know the difference and capitalize on the oportunity when his competition is still saying how Apple's demands "simply cannot be justified."
Its either this or just another example where the rest of the world will bite off its nose to spite its face, being iPhoneless - and we who were born on soil outside the U.S. wil once again have our noses pressed up against the candy store window, telling ourselves that we are doing just fine.
Very interesting perspectives!
But if the iPhone becomes regarded as seriously cool after it's release, the ultra face/hip/cool/techie/status conscious youth of Asia will be all over it like flies on road kill - perceived arrogance or not.
I guess you didn't bother to read my original post (#9, for your reference), where I said: ".....if and when its numbers grow, the service providers will find it in their interest to deal with Apple."
Stopped reading...
I know... What's worse, I'm not even American, my old chap, what...
The iPhone should've been released contract free worldwide.
You know it. I know it. Everybody knows it.
And that's not even true, as that can be done on the phone itself instead of network side.
The only theories I have is that Apple either has features upcoming that they require network support for (and so 'bought' them with iPhone exclusivity) or that the iPhone really costs 500+ dollars to make and so AT&T is indeed subsidizing the iPhone.
It's not like Apple has complete control over the iPhone experience or anything with AT&T, it wouldn't be that much worse if they offered contract free iPhones.
It depends on who is trying to help the consumer
You are kidding right?!?!
Dave
Yes, what of Japan? One can only hope the likes of Apple can negotiate a deal that will finally bring Japan into the 21st century with regard to prepaid and pay-per-use SIM card services. As it stands now, Docomo, AU, SoftBank and the rest of the carriers here refuse to offer SIMs for sale at all. It's a silly money grab to lock people into long term contracts, and the Japanese are so passive (and ignorant of services outside Japan) that they refuse to complain in droves to invoke change here. So as ususual, it will take intense pressure from some entity outside the country before things in Japan change for the better.
They'll rent you a SIM
A top flight Japanese phone[1] costs 600 or more USD just to make. One of the prices you pay for living in the world's most advanced mobile phone market.
However operators believe that customers will not pay $800 for a phone (counting margins, and the like) and so they subsidize them massively.
This means that a) they want that customer locked into them for a couple years via contract (with the advent of number portability) and b) they need to recoup their collective 16 billion USD/year subsidy cost via higher price plans.
The operators hate this, because each phone they sell costs them 600-800 USD (note that current release phones go for a couple hundred USD with contract but current release minus one are free[ish]?and only 4-6 months old).
The manufacturers hate this because the operators not only tell them exactly how to make their phone, but pay virtually nothing above cost to them (the manufacturers are stuck because none of them have managed to market outside Japan and so are forced to rely on the operators).
The people dislike this because they get stuck with plans that cost a lot of money.
Therefore for a pay-as-you-go system to work you'd have to be willing to pay $800 USD for a phone. Are you?
The alternative, and the one that might actually happen, is something like Sweden where you either buy whatever phone/SIM you want outright via pay-as-you-go (expensive, but lets you do whatever you want) or you buy a plan and a phone?and the phone's price is paid monthly as an add-on to your bill.
Upside: Operators get to stop subsidizing phones, manufacturers might actually make money and be able to operate outside Japan, and plans go down in price.
Downside: Phone will cost you a lot, either upfront or via a monthly payment plan added to your mobile bill.
[1] i.e. Mobile TV, GPS chip, mobile wallet, 3G, GSM (for some, and expanding), small (which costs), high res screens, and the like.
Therefore for a pay-as-you-go system to work you'd have to be willing to pay $800 USD for a phone. Are you?
I paid that much in to NTT back in 1994 to get my own telephone number here in Japan. You still have to buy these silly phone bonds for about that much even now. That's why many young people forgo the land land in lieu of a cell phone. And now that you can switch carriers without losing your cell number (a new law made this possible), many more people are ditching the bonds. Yet others still want to have the land line and they pay through the nose for it.
The fact is that the Japanese are willing to pay more than people in any other country for something they really want. Gas is over $5 per gallon thanks to taxes, and melons can cost between $20-$50 each here! So you would be surprised how many would be upwards of $800 for a cell phone, especially the likes of what Apple is producing.
I have one of the most cutting edge SoftBank cell phones that came out just this year. But it's still non-intuitive and extremely limiting compared to what the iPhone promises to be. Sure, my phone is more compact than the iPhone, but I could really get some serious use out of the iPhone versus these low-tech phones we have now in Japan. Yeah, yeah, I can here some people talk about 5MP cameras in phones to try to say how existing phones are better than the iPhone, but that's missing the point. Besides, I've never see any cell phone take good pictures (even the 5MP ones).
Another reason I loath the lack of prepaid and pay-per-use SIMs is that my company is not able to enter the GSM security business because of it. We can build GSM systems for every country but Japan. Sure, the technology will allow us to make a GSM alarm for sale here, but the average Japanese doesn't want to pay a monthly fee for a security system. So we aren't going to manufacture something we know won't be a hit. Hence, we await such a time that we can at long last release a GSM security system that sends an SMS email when the alarm is triggered and the user is only charge one for that one SMS email -- no monthly fees. And even if that one SMS email alone cost an outrageous $5 for only two lines of text, it would still be much cheaper than $5 per month, 12 times per year, every single year! But again, such is only possible when carriers here finally allow SIM card solutions like most other countries.
This Business Week article is a pretty decent summary.
I also fully agree with you on the user interface (Japanese mobiles suck just as much as everybody else's), but the iPhone lacks GPS, 3G, Mobile TV, over-the-air song downloads, and e-cash?all features that are pretty big motivators in buying a new phone (via What Japan Thinks most recent mobile phone survey) in Japan.
To be fair I suspect both GPS and 3G will be in revision B of the iPhone, over-the-air downloads is a software update away, and a near-field contact e-cash chip would cheap enough to add that it wouldn't matter that no one outside Japan used it.
As for GSM, well Japan doesn't have GSM. I suppose you mean USIM's on NTT DoCoMo or Softbank?. It does kinda suck for you though.
I would never switch networks for the iPhone but as long as Apple want to sell it, they'll have to play by Europe's rules and offer removable SIMs.
That said, I can see it being very popular as long as we aren't treated like the usual 2nd Class customers from US tech companies.
Yes, what of Japan? One can only hope the likes of Apple can negotiate a deal that will finally bring Japan into the 21st century with regard to prepaid and pay-per-use SIM card services. As it stands now, Docomo, AU, SoftBank and the rest of the carriers here refuse to offer SIMs for sale at all. It's a silly money grab to lock people into long term contracts, and the Japanese are so passive (and ignorant of services outside Japan) that they refuse to complain in droves to invoke change here. So as ususual, it will take intense pressure from some entity outside the country before things in Japan change for the better.
If Europe is in the 21st century (and the US, in the 20th) vis-a-vis how mobile companies have consumers by the b411s, Japan -- in my experience as a visitor -- is still stuck in the 19th century.
I am not surprised that Apple has not even mentioned Japan by name, just "Asia" generically.
They'll rent you a SIM
A top flight Japanese phone[1] costs 600 or more USD just to make. One of the prices you pay for living in the world's most advanced mobile phone market.
However operators believe that customers will not pay $800 for a phone (counting margins, and the like) and so they subsidize them massively.
This means that a) they want that customer locked into them for a couple years via contract (with the advent of number portability) and b) they need to recoup their collective 16 billion USD/year subsidy cost via higher price plans.
The operators hate this, because each phone they sell costs them 600-800 USD (note that current release phones go for a couple hundred USD with contract but current release minus one are free[ish]?and only 4-6 months old).
The manufacturers hate this because the operators not only tell them exactly how to make their phone, but pay virtually nothing above cost to them (the manufacturers are stuck because none of them have managed to market outside Japan and so are forced to rely on the operators).
The people dislike this because they get stuck with plans that cost a lot of money.
Therefore for a pay-as-you-go system to work you'd have to be willing to pay $800 USD for a phone. Are you?
The alternative, and the one that might actually happen, is something like Sweden where you either buy whatever phone/SIM you want outright via pay-as-you-go (expensive, but lets you do whatever you want) or you buy a plan and a phone?and the phone's price is paid monthly as an add-on to your bill.
Upside: Operators get to stop subsidizing phones, manufacturers might actually make money and be able to operate outside Japan, and plans go down in price.
Downside: Phone will cost you a lot, either upfront or via a monthly payment plan added to your mobile bill.
[1] i.e. Mobile TV, GPS chip, mobile wallet, 3G, GSM (for some, and expanding), small (which costs), high res screens, and the like.
The answer to your question is YES! People will pay £800, or equivalent, for a pre paid service as they do already in the UK. You can buy nearly any phone on pre paid as long as you are willing to buy the phone outright. Some people just can't commit to long term contracts so simply buy the phone for a one off fee.
In my experience, people will pay a lot of money for a phone they really want.
My suggestion to Apple: Look at the current European markets and try to integrate smoothly. Locking in contracts or SIMS will not work outside the US.
Yeah but we wouldn't have, uh, visual voicemail?
And that's not even true, as that can be done on the phone itself instead of network side.
Not true, unless you expect the iPhone to auto-download the audio to the iPhone's Flash and then use the corresponding spoken phone numbers to either associate the voicemail with a contact from your address book or display the phone number if no contact current exists.
While I can understand the complaints about being tied to a carrier and having a contract, the simple solution is to not purchase the iPhone. This is a service Apple wanted to offer and it's one that requires interactive work both the carrier and the phone's OS developers.
I can't believe we've gone this long without being able to view and chose our cell phone messages like we can our SMS and email messages. It seems like an obvious inclusion after the fact. I look forward to other innovations between AT&T and Apple, as well as other efforts from other carriers finally working with cell manufacturers. The iPhone will benefit everyone who uses a cell phone, regardless of chosen carrier or hardware vendor
I've been toying with the idea of buying an iPhone is the US as it's quad-band capabilty would allow it to work on the UK GSM networks, but the major thing stands in the way and I'm almost sure of the answer - it's not likely that they're going to allow US customers to buy iPhone SIM-free is it?! Even for silly amounts of money? If they do, I'm there, but sadly I can see myself having to wait until the UK release to grab myself one. Because all I ever here is "compulsory" two-year contract, which kinda poops on the idea and answers the question for me, kinda.
Are you nuts?
Let the Mercans work out the bugs for us. By the time it lands here it might work.
Are you nuts?
Let the Mercans work out the bugs for us. By the time it lands here it might work.
Gee, that's what I say about European products.
Besides, I've never see any cell phone take good pictures (even the 5MP ones).
Could you please explain your criteria for 'good' because I have taken photos with my SE K750i which I consider to be excellent so I would like to know what you mean.
Could you please explain your criteria for 'good' because I have taken photos with my SE K750i which I consider to be excellent so I would like to know what you mean.
I would imagine it would depend upon your expectations.