That's sort of what I meant. The K750i has only a 2mp camera but it takes perfectly acceptable photos IMO. Sure they are not the equivalent of the 18mp or so images I get from my SLR film camera but they are good enough to print a perfectly decent 6x4 print here are some examples - downsized from the originals of course:
If they are not at least 'good' - what are they?
You're asking the wrong person. I owned a commercial photo lab for many years, so what my expectations are won't equal yours.
The first pic looks very nice, and the second seems fine, except for shadow areas.
But, it's tough to tell from here.
2 MPxl images are, as you say, fine for 4 x 6 prints, or equiv., but you can't make 8 x 10's or equiv. without pixelization, or having to go to PS, or some other program, and upscaling properly, which will result in softness, or artifacts.
Those are, from what I can see, pretty good for a phone, but won't come anywhere near to the quality I'm seeing today from 7 MPxl 3x optical zoom $149 (list price) point and shoot digital cameras.
While I won't say never, it will be pretty hard to cram a high quality camera in any kind of featured phone. The sensor has to be bigger, as does the lens. The associated circuity also takes up much space, as does the viewfinder (you don't want to use the LCD for more than rare usage, because it uses up power too quickly), and a decently powered flash.
One or the other is going to suffer greatly.
A separate camera has a far better chance of being better.
Okay, I will admit that those are the first cell phone photos I've seen that are "good." All the cell phones I've ever used here in Japan, including my advanced SoftBank phone made this year, takes photos that are blurry and very noisy. I guess they simply make better cameras in phones outside Japan.
You're asking the wrong person. I owned a commercial photo lab for many years, so what my expectations are won't equal yours.
The first pic looks very nice, and the second seems fine, except for shadow areas.
But, it's tough to tell from here.
2 MPxl images are, as you say, fine for 4 x 6 prints, or equiv., but you can't make 8 x 10's or equiv. without pixelization, or having to go to PS, or some other program, and upscaling properly, which will result in softness, or artifacts.
Those are, from what I can see, pretty good for a phone, but won't come anywhere near to the quality I'm seeing today from 7 MPxl 3x optical zoom $149 (list price) point and shoot digital cameras.
While I won't say never, it will be pretty hard to cram a high quality camera in any kind of featured phone. The sensor has to be bigger, as does the lens. The associated circuity also takes up much space, as does the viewfinder (you don't want to use the LCD for more than rare usage, because it uses up power too quickly), and a decently powered flash.
One or the other is going to suffer greatly.
A separate camera has a far better chance of being better.
We are slightly at cross purposes I think. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you have said. I was not trying to imply that cameraphones should or can replace a dedicated 'proper' camera. I was just trying to make the point that at least one of them is capable of fairly good images - which is a damn sight better than no image at all.
I went skiing back in January. I lugged an Olympus OM4Ti with some serious glass. I got fabulous images with that gear and velvia but it was not always practical to carry it. The camera phone went everywhere and so I was able to get some nice pics I otherwise wouldn't have. I am not implying camera phones are good enough for a fashion shoot, just that they are not necessarily limited to 'bad' images.
The image of the road and trees was taken just as I was out for some exercise on a 10k walk. I wouldn't have carried a proper camera or even a P&S. It is perfectly good enough to email to relatives overseas to show what a chore getting some exercise can be.
Likewise when I went skiing - I got plenty of reasonable images like the following I otherwise wouldn't have.
Can you please stay on topic. This thread is about the European carriers not about the camera. There is already a thread open on the picture and video capture quality of the iphone.
So whats the latest on the EU carrier problems with Apple?
You would have to ask Apple that one ;-) As I said before, it would suit me most if they didn't sort it and it ended up being contract free and unlocked over here. If they could just get a 5mp sensor into it along with AF optics from Leica while they are at the business of adding 3G, I'd be happy and might actually be persuaded to buy one.
And while they are at it why not add VGA 30fps video as well as GPS lol
Unlocked for retail are you kidding? The prices would soar up to between 7 and 800 pounds.
I dont think it will come to that anyway as i read that Pascal something (Apple head for Europe or some dept) said that it will not be available on PAYG and will only be available on a 12 month contract.
Considering you guys in the US only have the option of a 2 year contract that seems better although we are likley to pay more for the handset. Probably £350 for the 4gb and £450 for the 8GB one.
Considering you guys in the US only have the option of a 2 year contract that seems better although we are likley to pay more for the handset. Probably £350 for the 4gb and £450 for the 8GB one.
I'd not have thought so. The Nokia N95 is around $1000 in the USA and it's free in the UK on the kind of contract you'd actually want with an iPhone.
Unlocked for retail are you kidding? The prices would soar up to between 7 and 800 pounds.
No I am not kidding. Whether you pay for the handset up front or through the obligatory payments of a contract, you are going to PAY for the handset one way or the other.
A separate camera has a far better chance of being better.
Sure, but that's not the point. Camera phones can be *good enough* for many people as even the low end K750 pictures show. 2mp is low end for European phone cameras. The SE phones tend to have better optics and image processing than the Nokias IME but these days it's hard to get a bad camera phone (ok Moto and Samsung maybe). The iPhone comes in at the low end spec wise.
No I am not kidding. Whether you pay for the handset up front or through the obligatory payments of a contract, you are going to PAY for the handset one way or the other.
Well Pascal has already said it wont be available like that and wont work with a random sim card (ala sharp 904). Its only a matter of time before the network is announced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
Sure, but that's not the point. Camera phones can be *good enough* for many people as even the low end K750 pictures show. 2mp is low end for European phone cameras. The SE phones tend to have better optics and image processing than the Nokias IME but these days it's hard to get a bad camera phone (ok Moto and Samsung maybe). The iPhone comes in at the low end spec wise.
It wasnt low end when it came out. The K750 was the best 2MP camera phone on the market. If that were to be released now yes it would be low end
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
I'd not have thought so. The Nokia N95 is around $1000 in the USA and it's free in the UK on the kind of contract you'd actually want with an iPhone.
That beacause you guys are generally behind in the phone market so get charged more. Its only the fact that Apple are a US company that you are getting it first.
The SE phones tend to have better optics and image processing than the Nokias
Is there any definitive info that they use better optics or image processing. You guys really want to believe in these camera phones. But don't believe in the diminishing returns as the MP's increase.
We are slightly at cross purposes I think. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you have said. I was not trying to imply that cameraphones should or can replace a dedicated 'proper' camera. I was just trying to make the point that at least one of them is capable of fairly good images - which is a damn sight better than no image at all.
I went skiing back in January. I lugged an Olympus OM4Ti with some serious glass. I got fabulous images with that gear and velvia but it was not always practical to carry it. The camera phone went everywhere and so I was able to get some nice pics I otherwise wouldn't have. I am not implying camera phones are good enough for a fashion shoot, just that they are not necessarily limited to 'bad' images.
The image of the road and trees was taken just as I was out for some exercise on a 10k walk. I wouldn't have carried a proper camera or even a P&S. It is perfectly good enough to email to relatives overseas to show what a chore getting some exercise can be.
Likewise when I went skiing - I got plenty of reasonable images like the following I otherwise wouldn't have.
I have nothing against camera phones. But the topic about them seems to be that people are abandoning, or will be abandoning cameras for them, and one reason given is image quality.
That's not going to happen. My daughter uses her camera phone with abandon, but she always gets the digital camera when she wants "real" pictures.
Can you please stay on topic. This thread is about the European carriers not about the camera. There is already a thread open on the picture and video capture quality of the iphone.
Chill, friend. We often take short side trips. It's part of the phone discussion.
Sure, but that's not the point. Camera phones can be *good enough* for many people as even the low end K750 pictures show. 2mp is low end for European phone cameras. The SE phones tend to have better optics and image processing than the Nokias IME but these days it's hard to get a bad camera phone (ok Moto and Samsung maybe). The iPhone comes in at the low end spec wise.
Still, even those are just barely ok by many standards. Look, if all you want is a low end cmaera for weekend pocs, it's fine. But, for anything else, no.
Again, it depends on your standards. What you may thing is good, I may think is bad.
Well Pascal has already said it wont be available like that and wont work with a random sim card (ala sharp 904). Its only a matter of time before the network is announced.
Network or networks? No single network covers Europe. I do wonder a bit about the sim card situation. I thought several European countries legally required that your phone number be transportable between networks. How can that happen if the sim card truly is not accessible?
The idea of having to change your phone number just to buy an iPhone strikes me as a requirement that would harm sales considerably. If there really isn't a slot to access the sim card I could suggest one where they can insert the whole device.
Still, even those are just barely ok by many standards. Look, if all you want is a low end cmaera for weekend pocs, it's fine. But, for anything else, no.
Again, it depends on your standards. What you may thing is good, I may think is bad.
Totally. Same as audiophiles wouldn't dream of buying 128kbps iTunes songs and us lot wouldn't be seen dead using Windows.
Totally. Same as audiophiles wouldn't dream of buying 128kbps iTunes songs and us lot wouldn't be seen dead using Windows.
Yes. Aside from my poor spelling (had to run out to get to the dentist), the only point I'm trying to make is that it is relative. Digicams will continue to get better, as will cameraphones. Cameraphones will be the low end, with the very best of them coming close to rivaling the low end of the digicam market.
We would need breakthroughs in lens technology, as well as in small sensor technology, before they could move up the scale further.
The idea of having to change your phone number just to buy an iPhone strikes me as a requirement that would harm sales considerably. If there really isn't a slot to access the sim card I could suggest one where they can insert the whole device.
If THIS is not a SIM card tray that I don't know what it is.
Comments
That's sort of what I meant. The K750i has only a 2mp camera but it takes perfectly acceptable photos IMO. Sure they are not the equivalent of the 18mp or so images I get from my SLR film camera but they are good enough to print a perfectly decent 6x4 print here are some examples - downsized from the originals of course:
If they are not at least 'good' - what are they?
You're asking the wrong person. I owned a commercial photo lab for many years, so what my expectations are won't equal yours.
The first pic looks very nice, and the second seems fine, except for shadow areas.
But, it's tough to tell from here.
2 MPxl images are, as you say, fine for 4 x 6 prints, or equiv., but you can't make 8 x 10's or equiv. without pixelization, or having to go to PS, or some other program, and upscaling properly, which will result in softness, or artifacts.
Those are, from what I can see, pretty good for a phone, but won't come anywhere near to the quality I'm seeing today from 7 MPxl 3x optical zoom $149 (list price) point and shoot digital cameras.
While I won't say never, it will be pretty hard to cram a high quality camera in any kind of featured phone. The sensor has to be bigger, as does the lens. The associated circuity also takes up much space, as does the viewfinder (you don't want to use the LCD for more than rare usage, because it uses up power too quickly), and a decently powered flash.
One or the other is going to suffer greatly.
A separate camera has a far better chance of being better.
The iphone camera is just there for the sole purpose of what a camera phone is really there for - to take sporadic pics here and there.
So whats the latest on the EU carrier problems with Apple?
You're asking the wrong person. I owned a commercial photo lab for many years, so what my expectations are won't equal yours.
The first pic looks very nice, and the second seems fine, except for shadow areas.
But, it's tough to tell from here.
2 MPxl images are, as you say, fine for 4 x 6 prints, or equiv., but you can't make 8 x 10's or equiv. without pixelization, or having to go to PS, or some other program, and upscaling properly, which will result in softness, or artifacts.
Those are, from what I can see, pretty good for a phone, but won't come anywhere near to the quality I'm seeing today from 7 MPxl 3x optical zoom $149 (list price) point and shoot digital cameras.
While I won't say never, it will be pretty hard to cram a high quality camera in any kind of featured phone. The sensor has to be bigger, as does the lens. The associated circuity also takes up much space, as does the viewfinder (you don't want to use the LCD for more than rare usage, because it uses up power too quickly), and a decently powered flash.
One or the other is going to suffer greatly.
A separate camera has a far better chance of being better.
We are slightly at cross purposes I think. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you have said. I was not trying to imply that cameraphones should or can replace a dedicated 'proper' camera. I was just trying to make the point that at least one of them is capable of fairly good images - which is a damn sight better than no image at all.
I went skiing back in January. I lugged an Olympus OM4Ti with some serious glass. I got fabulous images with that gear and velvia but it was not always practical to carry it. The camera phone went everywhere and so I was able to get some nice pics I otherwise wouldn't have. I am not implying camera phones are good enough for a fashion shoot, just that they are not necessarily limited to 'bad' images.
The image of the road and trees was taken just as I was out for some exercise on a 10k walk. I wouldn't have carried a proper camera or even a P&S. It is perfectly good enough to email to relatives overseas to show what a chore getting some exercise can be.
Likewise when I went skiing - I got plenty of reasonable images like the following I otherwise wouldn't have.
So whats the latest on the EU carrier problems with Apple?
You would have to ask Apple that one ;-) As I said before, it would suit me most if they didn't sort it and it ended up being contract free and unlocked over here. If they could just get a 5mp sensor into it along with AF optics from Leica while they are at the business of adding 3G, I'd be happy and might actually be persuaded to buy one.
Unlocked for retail are you kidding? The prices would soar up to between 7 and 800 pounds.
I dont think it will come to that anyway as i read that Pascal something (Apple head for Europe or some dept) said that it will not be available on PAYG and will only be available on a 12 month contract.
Considering you guys in the US only have the option of a 2 year contract that seems better although we are likley to pay more for the handset. Probably £350 for the 4gb and £450 for the 8GB one.
Considering you guys in the US only have the option of a 2 year contract that seems better although we are likley to pay more for the handset. Probably £350 for the 4gb and £450 for the 8GB one.
I'd not have thought so. The Nokia N95 is around $1000 in the USA and it's free in the UK on the kind of contract you'd actually want with an iPhone.
Unlocked for retail are you kidding? The prices would soar up to between 7 and 800 pounds.
No I am not kidding. Whether you pay for the handset up front or through the obligatory payments of a contract, you are going to PAY for the handset one way or the other.
A separate camera has a far better chance of being better.
Sure, but that's not the point. Camera phones can be *good enough* for many people as even the low end K750 pictures show. 2mp is low end for European phone cameras. The SE phones tend to have better optics and image processing than the Nokias IME but these days it's hard to get a bad camera phone (ok Moto and Samsung maybe). The iPhone comes in at the low end spec wise.
No I am not kidding. Whether you pay for the handset up front or through the obligatory payments of a contract, you are going to PAY for the handset one way or the other.
Well Pascal has already said it wont be available like that and wont work with a random sim card (ala sharp 904). Its only a matter of time before the network is announced.
Sure, but that's not the point. Camera phones can be *good enough* for many people as even the low end K750 pictures show. 2mp is low end for European phone cameras. The SE phones tend to have better optics and image processing than the Nokias IME but these days it's hard to get a bad camera phone (ok Moto and Samsung maybe). The iPhone comes in at the low end spec wise.
It wasnt low end when it came out. The K750 was the best 2MP camera phone on the market. If that were to be released now yes it would be low end
I'd not have thought so. The Nokia N95 is around $1000 in the USA and it's free in the UK on the kind of contract you'd actually want with an iPhone.
That beacause you guys are generally behind in the phone market so get charged more. Its only the fact that Apple are a US company that you are getting it first.
The SE phones tend to have better optics and image processing than the Nokias
Is there any definitive info that they use better optics or image processing. You guys really want to believe in these camera phones. But don't believe in the diminishing returns as the MP's increase.
We are slightly at cross purposes I think. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you have said. I was not trying to imply that cameraphones should or can replace a dedicated 'proper' camera. I was just trying to make the point that at least one of them is capable of fairly good images - which is a damn sight better than no image at all.
I went skiing back in January. I lugged an Olympus OM4Ti with some serious glass. I got fabulous images with that gear and velvia but it was not always practical to carry it. The camera phone went everywhere and so I was able to get some nice pics I otherwise wouldn't have. I am not implying camera phones are good enough for a fashion shoot, just that they are not necessarily limited to 'bad' images.
The image of the road and trees was taken just as I was out for some exercise on a 10k walk. I wouldn't have carried a proper camera or even a P&S. It is perfectly good enough to email to relatives overseas to show what a chore getting some exercise can be.
Likewise when I went skiing - I got plenty of reasonable images like the following I otherwise wouldn't have.
I have nothing against camera phones. But the topic about them seems to be that people are abandoning, or will be abandoning cameras for them, and one reason given is image quality.
That's not going to happen. My daughter uses her camera phone with abandon, but she always gets the digital camera when she wants "real" pictures.
Can you please stay on topic. This thread is about the European carriers not about the camera. There is already a thread open on the picture and video capture quality of the iphone.
Chill, friend. We often take short side trips. It's part of the phone discussion.
Sure, but that's not the point. Camera phones can be *good enough* for many people as even the low end K750 pictures show. 2mp is low end for European phone cameras. The SE phones tend to have better optics and image processing than the Nokias IME but these days it's hard to get a bad camera phone (ok Moto and Samsung maybe). The iPhone comes in at the low end spec wise.
Still, even those are just barely ok by many standards. Look, if all you want is a low end cmaera for weekend pocs, it's fine. But, for anything else, no.
Again, it depends on your standards. What you may thing is good, I may think is bad.
Is there any definitive info that they use better optics or image processing. You guys really want to believe in these camera phones.
The results speak for themselves.
Last year's K790/800 replaced the K750 2mp phone mentioned earlier...
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/08...00i/print.html
http://www.cabel.name/2006/11/review...son-k790a.html
Since then they've had the K810 (largely the same) and now it's being replaced with the K850 which is 5mp.
Nokia got to 5mp before SE did but by all accounts the images are softer and less detailed.
But don't believe in the diminishing returns as the MP's increase.
At 3.2mp or 5mp you're not even up one side of the hump never mind gliding down the other side of the megapixel myth.
Well Pascal has already said it wont be available like that and wont work with a random sim card (ala sharp 904). Its only a matter of time before the network is announced.
Network or networks? No single network covers Europe. I do wonder a bit about the sim card situation. I thought several European countries legally required that your phone number be transportable between networks. How can that happen if the sim card truly is not accessible?
The idea of having to change your phone number just to buy an iPhone strikes me as a requirement that would harm sales considerably. If there really isn't a slot to access the sim card I could suggest one where they can insert the whole device.
Still, even those are just barely ok by many standards. Look, if all you want is a low end cmaera for weekend pocs, it's fine. But, for anything else, no.
Again, it depends on your standards. What you may thing is good, I may think is bad.
Totally. Same as audiophiles wouldn't dream of buying 128kbps iTunes songs and us lot wouldn't be seen dead using Windows.
Totally. Same as audiophiles wouldn't dream of buying 128kbps iTunes songs and us lot wouldn't be seen dead using Windows.
Yes. Aside from my poor spelling (had to run out to get to the dentist), the only point I'm trying to make is that it is relative. Digicams will continue to get better, as will cameraphones. Cameraphones will be the low end, with the very best of them coming close to rivaling the low end of the digicam market.
We would need breakthroughs in lens technology, as well as in small sensor technology, before they could move up the scale further.
The idea of having to change your phone number just to buy an iPhone strikes me as a requirement that would harm sales considerably. If there really isn't a slot to access the sim card I could suggest one where they can insert the whole device.
If THIS is not a SIM card tray that I don't know what it is.