Blu-ray vs. HD DVD (2008)

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  • Reply 901 of 2639
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,425member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    LOL.

    With no high-def content yet.

    Which will happily send you Blu-Ray discs cheaper than you can rent from either Apple or Vudu.

    Which is okay (the TV part...the data part has been great) but only in limited regions.

    Which is mostly found in the same regions as FiOS since FiOS is eating their lunch...

    Which unfortunately is stuck with FTTN and flakey performance when you're at the limit of the range for copper.

    Which is great if you're in a FiOS or DOCSIS 3.0 area. But wait...if you're there you already have functioning HD on Demand.

    Nope. I think 720p is just great and most folks sit too far away to notice the difference between 720p and 1080p.

    On the other hand it really depends on the bitrate of the downloads. Just being 720p is only half the battle.

    Even then a $5 rental is likely to be cheaper over the lifetime of your collection.

    I have FiOS so I'm set. Comcast has been upgrading service in my area to stop the bleeding.



    However, that doesn't translate into Blu-Ray wont have mass market appeal. You guys are just sore losers to be jumping on the download bandwagon at this late date.



    Hey laugh all you want but Blu-ray and HD DVD have had 2 yrs to grow and neither is a can't miss.



    Vudu will have HD content soon enough and Apple is rolling out "minimal" HD content.



    Fios is a plus whether you have Fios TV or not. I'm not a sore loser. I wasn't kidding when I said I'd buy Blu-ray but just not at their initial pricing. Frankly I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "where's the managed copy?" If HD DVD was to survive they would have had to be ahead of Blu-ray in technical features (larger persistent memory, networking functionality and Managed Copy). They weren't so all they had was price and a small advantage in interactivity which consumers don't really care about (they get enough flashing and bleeping and blooping from the Internet).



    Blu-ray could be onto something if they take some of the space they have in abundance and carry versions of the movie that can be unlocked for free or a nominal sum to be played on iPods and other portable devices.
  • Reply 902 of 2639
    cory bauercory bauer Posts: 1,286member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post


    There is hope for you HD DVD proponents...



    Sony Offers Blu-ray Rebate to German HD DVD Owners



    http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=901



    I know it is just Germany and it probably won't be as high here, but again something like this for the disgruntled HD DVD owner is a nice peace offering and gets them back into the high-def optical game.



    If they trade in their HD DVD player, what are they supposed to do with their collection of HD DVDs? Even a small collection of HD DVD's cost more than the player itself.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    And NEITHER format was feature complete. Show me a HD-DVD player with Managed Copy...then show me that final AACS spec...



    An Ethernet port for the oft-needed firmware updates and access to additional online features is of interest to me; several layers of DRM tightly wrapped around my media is not.
  • Reply 903 of 2639
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:

    Which is great if you're in a FiOS or DOCSIS 3.0 area. But wait...if you're there you already have functioning HD on Demand.



    I would imagine Apple tested its HD download service over the most common bandwidth. I seriously doubt it requires FiOS.



    Quote:

    However, that doesn't translate into Blu-Ray wont have mass market appeal. You guys are just sore losers to be jumping on the download bandwagon at this late date.



    I think the point is there are many many more options for receiving media now than every before. I agree of the current options Blu-ray has the best quality but that is pretty much all it offers over its competition. Most people are happy enough with DVD and would be happier still if they could simply download all of their content.
  • Reply 904 of 2639
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Another problem that is holding back downloading/streaming content is everyone forming their own services and camps that you have to buy into. Their needs to be interoperability between the services and hardware. That would offer people more options. People have to buy hardware and are locked into one service that will fragment the market and everyone will play to a niche.



    Apple TV should be open to using any download service. Netflix, Vudu, Unbox, Hulu, Joost, or iTunes.
  • Reply 905 of 2639
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,425member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    I would imagine Apple tested its HD download service over the most common bandwidth. I seriously doubt it requires FiOS.





    I think the point is there are many many more options for receiving media now than every before. I agree of the current options Blu-ray has the best quality but that is pretty much all it offers over its competition. Most people are happy enough with DVD and would be happier still if they could simply download all of their content.



    Not only am I enthused about the potential of downloading Major Studio fare online but this opens up new avenues for Indie film distribution. How long will it take for a "MovieBaby" to hit? Online downloads can be a great democratizing and disruptive technology.



    I think the landscape in 5 years is going to look vastly different and in 10 years the thought of movies on optical discs will see strange. Viva La Revolution!
  • Reply 906 of 2639
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Hey laugh all you want but Blu-ray and HD DVD have had 2 yrs to grow and neither is a can't miss.



    was DVD 2 years in? NOPE



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    I'm not a sore loser. I wasn't kidding when I said I'd buy Blu-ray but just not at their initial pricing.



    Is this the initial pricing NOW today or the initial pricing 15 months ago?



    and are you getting BD NOW? or in six months time, like you said you would 12 months ago?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Frankly I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "where's the managed copy?" If HD DVD was to survive they would have had to be ahead of Blu-ray in technical features (larger persistent memory, networking functionality and Managed Copy). They weren't so all they had was price and a small advantage in interactivity which consumers don't really care about (they get enough flashing and bleeping and blooping from the Internet).



    So why all the denial when everyone else was telling you that a year ago?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Blu-ray could be onto something if they take some of the space they have in abundance and carry versions of the movie that can be unlocked for free or a nominal sum to be played on iPods and other portable devices.



    Will likely happen, Fox testing the water with "blue harvest" is an indicator, and the extra 20GB on BD means there is at least the space to do it, but then its FOX and aren't they {whispers BD+} evil?
  • Reply 907 of 2639
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post


    If they trade in their HD DVD player, what are they supposed to do with their collection of HD DVDs? Even a small collection of HD DVD's cost more than the player itself.



    Which is the point of why a format war was bad and victory by EITHER format is good. A point which you seem to miss/ignore.



    Quote:

    An Ethernet port for the oft-needed firmware updates and access to additional online features is of interest to me; several layers of DRM tightly wrapped around my media is not.



    Yeah...because copying HD movies to a media center PC is of zero value to a consumer while the ability for a studio to cross sell to them is of very high value.
  • Reply 908 of 2639
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    1. Trying to cram expensive movies down consumer throats.



    These are the same movies that cost more on HD-DVD than on BD when warner was neutral?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    2. Requires potentially expensive infrastructure (HDTV, surround sound)



    Apple TV does, HD-DVD does, but your FUD-u-like seems to wish that ONLY BD does.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Frankly I'm not buying the whole schtick that "Now that HD DVD is dead Blu-ray can now become the next DVD"



    But, yet I can't help but feel you WOULD believe it if it was HD-DVD



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Look at the Perfect Storm coming this year.



    Sorry, thats funny, cos didn't you use that phrase last year about HD-DVD?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Vudu is shipping

    Netflix is powering forward

    Fios TV, faster Cable with VOD, Uverse

    Apple HD downloads via Apple TV.



    I'm behind Downloads for RENTAL, but why does every pro downloader feel that BOOM it will happen over night? It won't, getting those damned expensive boxes into homes when a netflix packet on the doormat is "GOOD ENOUGH" will take TIME. just like BD/HD-DUD took time, and wasted it with a damn silly format "war"



    plus, hey, you said that HD-DVD was the next big thing right.. NOT HAPPENING. So why then would we believe you about something else?





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    All DVD had to do was beat out the horrible debacle that was Divx. It was the natural evolution of video. Consumers saw the Philips Cassette give way to CD and so they understand the lineage...now VHS was giving way to DVD.



    Some people have great hindsight, others have foresight. I guess you need to realise which one you are, and maybe listen to the other people a bit more.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Because I like being part of the niche I'll buy a Blu-ray player. I love movies and I'll like the "Extras". However if people think that trying to slight 720p downloads is going to work for the masses I implore you to walk into a Best Buy or whatever and look at the current 720p Plasma at 42" available from $1000-$1300



    Why such hostility to the extra space for extras on BD over HD-DVD last year then?



    Isnt that still part of that "expensive" you tried to use against BD earlier? or does owning a BD player mean you have to pay some sort of a BD tax when you buy a HDTV?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    I have no problems with 720p downloads and frankly I can see myself utilizing download services.



    No argument from me there 720 is just fine for downloads.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    I'm probably going to only start buying movies that I "know" I'll watch multiple times.



    Good idea, unless thats a degree of early adopters remorse?
  • Reply 909 of 2639
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,425member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post


    was DVD 2 years in? NOPE



    Is this the initial pricing NOW today or the initial pricing 15 months ago?



    and are you getting BD NOW? or in six months time, like you said you would 12 months ago?



    So why all the denial when everyone else was telling you that a year ago?



    Will likely happen, Fox testing the water with "blue harvest" is an indicator, and the extra 20GB on BD means there is at least the space to do it, but then its FOX and aren't they {whispers BD+} evil?



    Remember DVD was delayed until consumers knew Divx was gone. Also remember that Fox and Disney were Divx proponents so DVD didn't have content. Blu-ray now has the overwhelming content advantage but they also have an incredible adversary in IPTV/VOD/Web download.



    I've said on numerous occasions that by end of 2008 I'd have a BD player. I've even tried to get one on craigslist for a great price. That Sammy BDUP5500 sounds good if it performs. I like the idea of consolidating to one player.



    You're basically attempting to pat yourself on the back with denial claims. I think the interactivity and networking functions are nice. I think the lack of Managed Copy is sad and frankly considering the dearth of any discussion on it it's likely dead. Which means the relative value of HD DVD/Blu-ray is now lower to me and the future ability to purchase HD content that can be streamed over a home network has increased in value.



    Yes actually Fox "is" Evil LOL..or at the least as selfish as a studio can be. But it's their content and hopefully before I die I'll enjoy a world in which the Media Distribution Gestapo is a fraction of size and influence.



    Big budget films will always global reach but in the next 2 decades there will be plenty of money to be made from Indie projects and Internet distribution can level the playing field. Frankly when theater run movies exceed a $20 bill I'm done with 1st run Theaters. It'll be cheaper to just surf the immense choices I should have in 5-10 yrs.
  • Reply 910 of 2639
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post


    I don't see the humor.



    I guess not everyone is a fan of the Simpsons



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post


    This is a frustrating time for a consumer who wants to enjoy HD films.



    Not with the slew of download options Murch is talking about



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post


    On the one hand, the reasonably-priced and feature-complete disc format is on it's death bed, so you shouldn't buy that one.



    I think you mean : "the reasonably CLEARANCE priced and feature-complete disc format is on it's death bed, so you shouldn't buy that one."



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post


    And on the other hand, players for the surviving format are neither feature-complete or well-priced. Quite frankly, this whole situation sucks for movie-buyers.



    So you are comparing the DISC of one format against the PLAYERS of the other ?? nice spin. I tell you what this "other format" has going for it though that you should, as an Apple user, be used to paying more for... the convenience of having more studio support, and as a movie buyer that means more choice.



    Movie buyers have never had so much choice DVDs Blu-ray Downloads VOD and PPV did I miss any out?
  • Reply 911 of 2639
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    I would imagine Apple tested its HD download service over the most common bandwidth. I seriously doubt it requires FiOS.



    The average video encode in early (march) 2007 was still 300 Kbps because encode above this figure results in choppy video. I'm going to guess that Apple is not targetting an average as low as 300 Kbps and that a year later the situation isn't an order of magnitude better.



    http://blog.streamingmedia.com/the_b..._most_bro.html



    Comments from video providers shows some substantiation of this number.



    Quote:

    I think the point is there are many many more options for receiving media now than every before. I agree of the current options Blu-ray has the best quality but that is pretty much all it offers over its competition. Most people are happy enough with DVD and would be happier still if they could simply download all of their content.



    Sure. But I think that the teething pains on a lot of these options are going to leave J6P as uninterested in them as they were in HD-DVD/Blu-Ray in 2007. Neither Vudu or aTV are mass market items.



    Cable HD VOD/PPV and DVRs may slow Blu-Ray but not these other content providers IMHO. And that depends on the number of titles available on VOD...
  • Reply 912 of 2639
    cory bauercory bauer Posts: 1,286member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post


    I think you mean : "the reasonably CLEARANCE priced and feature-complete disc format is on it's death bed, so you shouldn't buy that one."



    No, HD DVD players were reasonably priced before clearance prices; The cheapest Blu-Ray player is still $330, and you'd need to buy a new one in six months if you want full compatibility and feature support.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post


    So you are comparing the DISC of one format against the PLAYERS of the other ?? nice spin.



    How did you come to that conclusion? I'm talking about players in both cases.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post


    Movie buyers have never had so much choice DVDs Blu-ray Downloads VOD and PPV did I miss any out?



    And until Blu-Ray gets their act together, consumers won't be choosing that one.
  • Reply 913 of 2639
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post


    And until Blu-Ray gets their act together, consumers won't be choosing that one.



    Warner disagrees. Given that they have skin in this game I'm going to guess that your assessment of Blu-Ray's act is inaccurate and biased because you were a HD-DVD fan.
  • Reply 914 of 2639
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:

    The average video encode in early (march) 2007 was still 300 Kbps because encode above this figure results in choppy video. I'm going to guess that Apple is not targetting an average as low as 300 Kbps and that a year later the situation isn't an order of magnitude better.



    Yes results will widely vary and its highly likely video will be choppy if one attempts to watch right at the beginning of the download.
  • Reply 915 of 2639
    cory bauercory bauer Posts: 1,286member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    Warner disagrees. Given that they have skin in this game I'm going to guess that your assessment of Blu-Ray's act is inaccurate and biased because you were a HD-DVD fan.



    Consumers aren't choosing Blu-Ray. PS3 owners are choosing Blu-Ray. It is everyone's hope that the 75% of HDTV owners who say DVD is good enough for them have a change of heart in the near future. I expect Blu-Ray's sales to increase slightly now that there's a clear winner in the HDM war, but even with HD DVD out of the way Sony's going to trip and fall on their own sword if spending $400 on a PS3 is the only futureproof means of watching Blu-Ray films in 2008. The only better way of ensuring consumers don't buy something they don't feel they need is to price it 4x more than what they're fine with using at this time.
  • Reply 916 of 2639
    jimmacjimmac Posts: 11,898member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by onlooker View Post


    Now it's a DVD war. Nice. A better description would be an evolution at best. Blu-Ray isn't fighting DVD. DVD users are slowly migrating towards the new format. Just like VHS to DVD. It took a few years before DVD sales overcame VHS, and it's obvious that Blu-Ray is selling at a great rate at this point. Not everyone even has a HDTV yet so there is also a dual migration happening right now. Even cable isn't totally broadcast in HD yet, and still Blu Ray is being adopted at a stellar pace. It's selling as fast as DVD did at any rate, and just like DVD did Blu Ray is the new format. Accept it and move on. Your arguing because of your state of denial is pathetic.



    I'm sorry but at this stage of the game that sounds more like wishful thinking if you look at the numbers. I'

    m all for HD on home video no matter what. Even if it's BR but it's way too early to count your chickens . And by the way DVD has always been the for mat to beat for both. I still have my Laser disc player nad many discs. Looking at that it's a good lesson learned.
  • Reply 917 of 2639
    jimmacjimmac Posts: 11,898member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post


    Exactly! this is STILL the "HD-DVD vs Blu-ray" thread. When there is a "Blu-ray Vs SD-DVD" thread then I think we can worry about SD-DVD.



    For the moment BD I just asserting itself as the foremost Hi-Def media, interesting times till May, although if Paramount and/or Universal decide to flee the flooding ferry sooner, then that will also be very interesting.



    I'm not overly bothered by the over all reduction in player sales in Jan., its only one week, but the comparison is an interesting 2 weeks, sales for the week BEFORE Warners announcement and sales for the week immediately AFTER. It clearly had an effect. Will that effect continue? Who knows. Will the total sales pick up again? Who knows, but I hope so.





    ---



    Because it's part of the equation Walter. Always has been. Even the Digital Bits admits that! And I wouldn't be laughing too hard at the clearence items Wally World.

    It could be just as likely at this point to see BR boxes in the space a few years from now.



    So BR really needs to prove itself to the consumer. They have to play their cards right. Trashing the loser in the format isn't the way to do it. Remember I'm not an HD DVD cheerleader like you are for BR. No one wants HD to win on Home Video more than myself.
  • Reply 918 of 2639
    jimmacjimmac Posts: 11,898member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Steve Jobs does not agree with you.



    http://www.cnbc.com/id/22673034







    I don't give a rip about the "Blu-ray is selling faster than DVD did" the move to DVD was more of a paradigm shift and let's not forget about the uncertaintly about DVD vs Divx. The road to Blu-ray success is going to be much harder now that IPTV and online HD downloads are going to be readily available from multiple sources. I was just in Best Buy yesterday and saw some 720p Plasmas and they looked fantastic running the HD loops. I don't think many consumers will be caught up in 720p vs 1080p.



    The next phase of online downloads may encompass a newer codec like h.265 which will likely offer a %50 reduction in bandwidth/datarate as compared h.264 today. Thus 720p at 8-10Mbps could become the norm.





    However for it to become mainstream it has to bee portable. Right now how do you get your downloads to play on a Plasma if you don't have Apple TV? And even if you do then there's all the problem if you want to take the movie over to you friend's house. And what if you want to keep the movie? This all has to be worked out. Trust me guys. The average consumer will never go for it mainstream if all they can do is rent the movie. Someone mentioned Divx ( not the codec ) earlier in the thread and it failed for similar reasons. People still like to own things.
  • Reply 919 of 2639
    e1618978e1618978 Posts: 6,075member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post


    the 75% of HDTV owners who say DVD is good enough for them



    If DVD was good enough, why did they spend the extra money to get an HDTV?
  • Reply 920 of 2639
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post


    If DVD was good enough, why did they spend the extra money to get an HDTV?



    Obvious guy says, "DVD video look better on HDTVs than they do on SDTVs, even without up-converting DVD players."
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