If you take out EDGE, WiFi, and only have 1 GB flash storage, this 3G chipset can be in the current iPhone form factor too. But what is the point? The phone will be neutered.
Huh? Isn't EDGE nearly always integrated with the HSDPA (3G) chipset these days? Because most any HSDPA phone I know of will drop down to EDGE (or GPRS) if that's the only signal available. I'm sure if the W880 somehow doesn't do EDGE, it at least does GPRS.
Also, in the era of 8GB (and rising) microSD cards, is having only 1 GB of internal storage really so awful? The current SDHC spec for microSD cards goes on up to 32GB, we'll probably be seeing cards like that before too long.
WiFi? The chips are quite small. Even back in early 2006, they had ones that were only 20 square millimeters:
He's just expressing an opinion. He thinks the screen is overkill. I don't particularly agree. He also thinks GPRS and EDGE are old, slow, and outdated. Well, they are, really. He also thinks the camera is not up with those in better high-end phones. That's true too.
This attitude is so biased and short sighted that it misses reality. 3G may be widely offered in Europe but in reality is not widely used. Even though its fast their are problems with the practical use of mobile internet.
Apple is building an ecosystem that will help make mobile data practical and usable for everyone. I think the focus on HDPS vs EDGE misses the bigger picture. Market share of mobile Safari has quickly gained a primary role in mobile web browsing. Holding nearly 75% of mobile web browsing in the US. This is because Apple works on the entire user experience.
Apple lists nearly 1200 web sites dedicated to providing services for the iPhone. Including major companies such as Moviefone, Bank of America, FedEX, American Airlines, and the list continues to grow. Nearly every web site I frequent has a book mark web clip for the iPhone home screen. I have not seen other mobile companies successful build such an ecosystem dedicated to the mobile internet. Because Apple is pushing open standards in building mobile web services other mobile browsers will be also be able to take advantage of these services.
Quote:
He's a Euro phone buyer with a different take on the market that what many Americans have. Instead of being hostile, it should instead be asked, "Okay, so what does the European market really want?".
I cannot hold Aegis as the official representative of every mobile phone user in Europe. Just as I cannot represent every mobile phone user in the US.
Quote:
The N95 is quite a lot thicker, but it's also significantly shorter and narrower than the iPhone, and, surprisingly, lighter: There's more volume inside the N95 than the iPhone, but not as much more as ppl tend to think.
One of the advantages of carrying around a brick should be long battery life.
Quote:
Neither WI or Anandtech appear to have tested both phones, from what I saw. The one source I've run across so far that has is Samsung itself, who claims 3 hours talk time for the 'Jack I, and 7 hours for the 'Jack II... a 133% improvement, and obviously far in excess of what one would expect from the better battery alone.
Obviously you have to take what Samsung says with subsequent salt.
Irrelevant to my argument but the reason phones in Europe often don't have EDGE is because we didn't bother with EDGE at all and went straight to 3G. Therefore it's not a sacrifice at all. Wifi isn't very common either or at least wasn't a few years back when those phones were designed.
Its not irrelevant. HDSPA is a family of services not all of them are the same. The smaller phones you speak of are able to allocate more of their energy budget to 3G chips than the iPhone is able. Not recognizing this is simply a distortion of the truth.
Quote:
With the very high satisfaction ratings, people appear really happy with it too! It seems the screen size and UI are pretty important features to have.
...in the USA.
"According to O2, the iPhone has the highest satisfaction rating and the lowest return rate of any phone in its lineup. Moreover, iPhone users generate roughly 30 percent more revenue per user than the carrier’s average customer."
I also mentioned that [turning 3G off and on] would be quite inconvenient!
It's not, really. You just have to know the code for the service menu. I do it all the time on my 3G Verizon flip phone... takes about 10 seconds. And, of course, turning 3G off or on could be as simple as flicking a slider on the side of the phone or a menu command, if the phonemaker wanted it to be.
I think his point is more that most people will not turn 3G off.
There is a slider to turn off WiFi. And I know if WiFi is off most of the time it extends iPhone battery life. But I really don't go through every day life thinking about how to optimize battery life for my phone. Very few other people will either.
This attitude is so biased and short sighted that it misses reality.
It's certainly not biased to say that EDGE and GPRS are slow and outdated, nor is it to say that the iPhone's camera/video capabilities aren't up with the best. That isn't missing reality, that, well, is reality. \
The screen size issue alone is debatable, which is why I did not agree with aegis on that one.
Quote:
3G may be widely offered in Europe but in reality is not widely used.
It's fairer to say, "Not widely used... yet", and yet, even that isn't really true. Italy's 3G penetration rate is 25% and rising. In most of the rest of Western Europe, 3G is starting to take off. And it does seem to be an expected feature on high-end phones.
But okay, let's focus on the fact that, right now, not in the near future, and not in Italy, and not so much on high-end phones, European 3G adoption rates are still fairly low, around 10%. What kind of device would change that, and accelerate 3G adoption? Could it be a device that provides a better mobile Internet user experience? Hmm... yeah, probably. And wouldn't such a device likely be... the iPhone?
I guess I don't understand the ultimate logic of having a device that makes people want 3G, and yet not providing 3G capability on said device.
Quote:
I cannot hold Aegis as the official representative of every mobile phone user in Europe. Just as I cannot represent every mobile phone user in the US.
Well, I dunno Teno... you've certainly gone with the US-centric view at almost every opportunity.
Quote:
One of the advantages of carrying around a brick should be long battery life.
Please. There's plenty of phones thicker than the N95. And dimensionally, if the N95's a brick, the iPhone's a plank.
Quote:
Obviously you have to take what Samsung says with subsequent salt.
Really? They were actually very conservative in their talk time claims for the Blackjack I, if the Anandtech results are at all accurate.
And I've owned two Samsung cellphones thus far, and both got the claimed battery life.
I think his point is more that most people will not turn 3G off.
There is a slider to turn off WiFi. And I know if WiFi is off most of the time it extends iPhone battery life. But I really don't go through every day life thinking about how to optimize battery life for my phone. Very few other people will either.
Well, if we're going deeper into this hypothetical example, if that's the primary worry, simply have EDGE be the default. Let those who want 3G turn it on if they so choose. The kind of people (in the US) who would do so tend to be more tech-savvy anyways, and would less mind the occasional flick of a switch or menu command involved in turning 3G on or off.
And, of course, if someone ever complained that EDGE was too slow, Apple could simply go, "Hey, it's got 3G. Just turn it on. Duh."
It's certainly not biased to say that EDGE and GPRS are slow and outdated, nor is it to say that the iPhone's camera/video capabilities aren't up with the best. That isn't missing reality, that, well, is reality.
That is true. But you only focus on that missing everything else that goes on around it.
Quote:
It's fairer to say, "Not widely used... yet", and yet, even that isn't really true. Italy's 3G penetration rate is 25% and rising. In most of the rest of Western Europe, 3G is starting to take off.
Yes 3G will grow. The way people proclaim its absolutely necessary is not in proportion to the number of people who actually use it.
Quote:
But okay, let's focus on the fact that, right now, not in the near future, and not in Italy, European 3G adoption rates are still fairly low, around 10%. What kind of device would change that, and accelerate 3G adoption? Could it be a device that provides a better mobile Internet user experience? Hmm... yeah, probably. And wouldn't such a device likely be... the iPhone?
Your focus is entirely on 3G. 3G is one part of an entire system. It is an important part but not necessarily the most crucial part. This is reflected in the wide availability in Europe but the rather pedestrian use.
No its not the iPhone within itself that will raise mobile data use. The entire system has to work well. Web sites and services need to be tailored to the mobile device experience. User interface built for smaller screens and limited hardware resources. There needs to be adequate data speed. The mobile browser needs to render full AJAX and HTML, WAP is not good enough. The mobile device screen needs to be large and bright enough to read text created for a larger screen. While being small enough to comfortably fit in your pocket.
As far as I know no other mobile phone company attempted to bridge all of these gaps. Apple is making that effort.
Quote:
I guess I don't understand the ultimate logic of having a device that makes people want 3G, and yet not providing 3G capability on said device.
You understand it. You just don't want to accept it.
Quote:
Well, I dunno Teno... you've certainly gone with the US-centric view at almost every opportunity.
What exactly is the US-centric view?
Quote:
Please. There's plenty of phones thicker than the N95. And dimensionally, if the N95's a brick, the iPhone's a plank.
Those other phones are even bigger bricks. I cannot fit an N95 comfortably in my jean pocket.
Quote:
And, of course, if someone ever complained that EDGE was too slow, Apple could simply go, "Hey, it's got 3G. Just turn it on. Duh."
That is true. But you only focus on that missing everything else that goes on around it.
Not at all. I see all the good stuff that's in the iPhone-- Safari, OS X/UI, big screen, iTunes, etc -- it's just frustrating that Apple hasn't been quicker to capitalize on the good stuff they've already put into the iPhone. For example, you've got the world's best mobile browser, and a nice fast cpu for rendering web pages quickly... but... no 3G?? Wha??
It's kinda like owning a Ferrari, but only running it at 25 mph.
Quote:
Yes 3G will grow. The way people proclaim its absolutely necessary is not in proportion to the number of people who actually use it.
Really? Check out Japan and Korea... 3G penetration rates already in excess of 50%, and climbing rapidly. They think it's necessary.
Even in Europe, where you could go "It's only 10%!", do you honestly think it's 10% in the high-end phone market, which is where the iPhone is competing? And do you honestly think it'll stay at 10% for the general market for long?
The funny thing is that you're arguing against the necessity of 3G, when the iPhone ITSELF will be driving the necessity of 3G, by making mobile browsing so much more popular.
Quote:
Your focus is entirely on 3G. 3G is one part of an entire system. It is an important part but not necessarily the most crucial part.
It is the most crucial part because Apple is actually doing pretty well at all the other parts. The main bottleneck seems to be connection speed. I don't think any of us doubts that a 3G iPhone would positively fly on the Internet.
Quote:
You understand it. You just don't want to accept it.
I understand it, and I don't accept it.
Quote:
What exactly is the US-centric view?
That 3G doesn't much matter, because it hasn't much mattered in the US yet. That good camera/video capabilities don't much matter, because they tend not to much matter in the US market. That the iPhone has sold well in the US, so its inevitable that it'll sell well elsewhere. That the Euros and Asians should want what we want.
Y'know, the typical garden variety arrogance.
Quote:
Those other phones are even bigger bricks. I cannot fit an N95 comfortably in my jean pocket.
Gosh Teno, the Motorola/Apple ROKR is almost exactly the same thickness as the N95. Were you loudly calling it a "brick" too when it came out? Doubt it.
And its not like the iPhone's form factor doesn't have its minuses too. I find it too wide to use one-handed comfortably. Plus, its a little taller/longer than I'd like, though not too bad.
Quote:
Sounds convoluted and inconvenient to me.
Maybe, if you find your WiFi slider switch to be convoluted and inconvenient. If you like, I can explain its operation to you.
Huh? Isn't EDGE nearly always integrated with the HSDPA (3G) chipset these days? Because most any HSDPA phone I know of will drop down to EDGE (or GPRS) if that's the only signal available. I'm sure if the W880 somehow doesn't do EDGE, it at least does GPRS.
Yup. It drops down to GPRS when HSPA isn't available.
Quote:
Also, in the era of 8GB (and rising) microSD cards, is having only 1 GB of internal storage really so awful? The current SDHC spec for microSD cards goes on up to 32GB, we'll probably be seeing cards like that before too long.
The Sony W880 has memory stick micro slot. It only comes with 16 MB internal storage. The Nokia 6500 classic does not have a microSD slot, but comes with 1 GB flash storage.
Quote:
WiFi? The chips are quite small. Even back in early 2006, they had ones that were only 20 square millimeters
If they are so small, why doesn't the 6500 classic or the w880 have it? Could it be that they didn't have room in such small devices? Or it was merely un-needed in European or East Asian markets?
Same question about flash storage, 1+ Mbit/s HSPA, EDGE, and possibly goodies. Why weren't all of those features included in these small phones? We can even ask the question of the N95-1 and the N95-2. Why didn't Nokia just increase the thickness of the N95-2 more so it could include both a larger battery, 8 GB storage, and a microSD slot? Man, these questions are begging too much.
I honestly don't, offhand. You can own that, if you want.
That's really the only way to be sure. Otherwise, we're just guessing. I've looked at the FCC photos (Anandtech has the best picture (legible) of the PCB), and there doesn't seem to be a significant difference in chips. The chip packaging look the same, but the chips can obviously be different under the packaging. I'm also curious whether the OMAP processor on the Blackjack II is lower power as well.
Quote:
The problem with that is that you seem to be taking the 4 hour talk time figure for the 'Jack I from Anandtech, and the 6 hour talk time figure for the 'Jack II from WirelessInfo. The two sites don't have the same testing methodologies.
Nope. I did search around. That's why I said "around". If it was from a particular website, I would have stated a more precise number.
Quote:
Neither WI or Anandtech appear to have tested both phones, from what I saw. The one source I've run across so far that has is Samsung itself, who claims 3 hours talk time for the 'Jack I, and 7 hours for the 'Jack II... a 133% improvement, and obviously far in excess of what one would expect from the better battery alone.
I looked at MobileTechReview and GSMArena for the Blackjack. MTR said 4 to 4.5 hours of talk time in 3G areas time while quoting Cingular's statement of 5.5 hours. For the Blackjack II they got over 5 hours of talk time while quoting Samsungs statement of up to 7 hours. GSMArena just gives manufacturer quotes: the Blackjack at 4.75 hours and the Blackjack II at up to 7 hours.
It's not, really. You just have to know the code for the service menu. I do it all the time on my 3G Verizon flip phone... takes about 10 seconds. And, of course, turning 3G off or on could be as simple as flicking a slider on the side of the phone or a menu command, if the phonemaker wanted it to be.
The problem is, the carrier wants to make money off of 3G services, so they don't want you to turn 3G off and on whenever you feel like. But there is always a way.
10 seconds is too long. No would do it from a usability standpoint. Yes, there is always a way to do things, but that doesn't translate to easy to do or enjoyable. I know that if 3G hurt my talk time like that, I think I would just leave on EDGE.
The Sony W880 has memory stick micro slot. It only comes with 16 MB internal storage. The Nokia 6500 classic does not have a microSD slot, but comes with 1 GB flash storage.
Yah, but a microSD slot dosen't take up a lot of room... that's why they're called microSD slots.
Those phones could've had a slot without being significantly bigger, but I guess this is what you get when you're prioritizing a small form factor so strongly.
Quote:
Same question about flash storage, 1+ Mbit/s HSPA, EDGE, and possibly goodies. Why weren't all of those features included in these small phones?
See above.
Quote:
We can even ask the question of the N95-1 and the N95-2. Why didn't Nokia just increase the thickness of the N95-2 more so it could include both a larger battery, 8 GB storage, and a microSD slot?
Battery? They did increase the battery from what the original model had. The original had a 950 mAh batt, the 95-2 has a 1200 mAh batt.
Storage and microSD slot? Depending on the variant, the N95 should have either 8GB internal storage, or a microSD slot. Why not both? Probably for the same reason Apple doesn't have both on the iPhone... they figure that if there's a good amount of internal storage, then you shouldn't need a microSD slot.
I happen to disagree with both Nokia and Apple on that one. \
Now it does, but it used to say 3 hours. Check out PhoneScoop, for example, which gets its specs from the maker and then seldom bothers to update them:
The Samsung SGH-i607 weighs 3.50 ounces and measures 4.45 x 2.32 x 0.46 inches. Its lithium-ion battery is rated at up to 3.0 hours of digital talk time, and up to 264 hours of digital standby time.
Considering that battery life was widely considered to be the fatal flaw of the Blackjack I, it's very likely that Samsung either did one heck of a firmware update, started shipping a bigger battery with the phone, or both. And they sure wouldn't be the first phonemaker to have done so after the fact.
The usual phonemaker fix is to just ship it with the extended battery (because its the easiest) but I haven't looked up what they did here.
Quote:
I looked at MobileTechReview and GSMArena for the Blackjack. MTR said 4 to 4.5 hours of talk time in 3G areas time while quoting Cingular's statement of 5.5 hours. For the Blackjack II they got over 5 hours of talk time while quoting Samsungs statement of up to 7 hours. GSMArena just gives manufacturer quotes: the Blackjack at 4.75 hours and the Blackjack II at up to 7 hours.
For the 'Jack I, those figures may be after Samsung's 'fix'. Or not. Were those reviews right at the 'Jack I's release, and remained unrevised later?
Quote:
10 seconds is too long. No would do it from a usability standpoint. Yes, there is always a way to do things, but that doesn't translate to easy to do or enjoyable. I know that if 3G hurt my talk time like that, I think I would just leave on EDGE.
You're kinda missing the point, or you didn't read me and Teno's exchange. It wouldn't be 10 seconds, not if there were a slider or a menu command to turn 3G off/on. And maybe you'd be perfectly happy with leaving it on EDGE, while Joe Power User next to you decided to turn the 3G on.
That's the cool thing when you're offered choices... you get to make 'em.
Considering that battery life was widely considered to be the fatal flaw of the Blackjack I, it's very likely that Samsung either did one heck of a firmware update, started shipping a bigger battery with the phone, or both. And they sure wouldn't be the first phonemaker to have done so after the fact.
The usual phonemaker fix is to just ship it with the extended battery (because its the easiest) but I haven't looked up what they did here.
Based on the reviews I looked through, they ship a spare standard battery (for a total of 2 standard batteries) in the box. However, I kind of doubt that the reviewers that quote 4 to 4.5 hours of talk time are quoting talk time for 2 batteries as that would be one of those things people wouldn't casually forget about. I also find it hard to believe Samsung is doing that as well.
Quote:
For the 'Jack I, those figures may be after Samsung's 'fix'. Or not. Were those reviews right at the 'Jack I's release, and remained unrevised later?
I have no idea. The MTR review is dated Nov 26, 2006, a mere 13 days after Phonescoop previewed it.
Quote:
You're kinda missing the point, or you didn't read me and Teno's exchange. It wouldn't be 10 seconds, not if there were a slider or a menu command to turn 3G off/on. And maybe you'd be perfectly happy with leaving it on EDGE, while Joe Power User next to you decided to turn the 3G on.
That's the cool thing when you're offered choices... you get to make 'em.
I remembe talk of an easier way to switch the data bands. But it doesn't exist yet. If it was there sure, it'll be nice. Even with an easy way, it is still inconvenient. Push email is popular for reason.
it's just frustrating that Apple hasn't been quicker to capitalize on the good stuff they've already put into the iPhone.
They are capitalizing on it. That is the reason why there are nearly 1200 web services built for the iPhone. That is why thousands of websites have icon web clips. That is why 100,000 developers downloaded the SDK. That is why Google has seen a 50% surge in mobile internet traffic. This is why mobile Safari holds nearly 75% of the mobile marketshare in the US, inspite of Sprint and Verizon having widely deployed 3G networks. The iPhone holds 2% of worldwide smartphone marketshare, mobile Safari is just short of Symbian in browser marketshare.
Your focus is solely on the data connection. While Apple's focus is on the entire mobile experience. The results are clear.
Quote:
Even in Europe, where you could go "It's only 10%!", do you honestly think it's 10% in the high-end phone market, which is where the iPhone is competing? And do you honestly think it'll stay at 10% for the general market for long?
According to Matthew Key CEO of O2 only 1.8% of other mobile phones use the highest amount of data as the iPhone on O2.
"Mr Key is excited about how iPhone customers are turning out to have a big appetite for data services. About 60 per cent are sending or receiving more than 25MB of data a month, which is the equivalent of sending 7,500 e-mails. By comparison, only 1.8 per cent of O2’s other mobile customers on monthly contracts are consuming more than 25MB a month."
Quote:
The funny thing is that you're arguing against the necessity of 3G, when the iPhone ITSELF will be driving the necessity of 3G, by making mobile browsing so much more popular.
Again you are looking at it in black and white, for or against. I am not against 3G. I think it is important and Apple needs to adopt it as soon as possible. But I don't think it is as important as you do.
Quote:
The main bottleneck seems to be connection speed. I don't think any of us doubts that a 3G iPhone would positively fly on the Internet.
"The iPhone is generating "unheard-of levels of mobile Internet usage," according to Vivek Dev, COO of Telefónica O2 Europe, the sole carrier of the device in the United Kingdom. Web browsing and e-mail are two of the primary purposes of the iPhone, and O2 customers have unlimited use under current plans. Traffic is said to be so high in fact that it is straining O2's network, and this is only expected to become worse as the company switches to flat data fees."
The bottleneck seems to be in O2's ability to handle the data traffic. O2 did not have to deal with this level of data usage from its other phones.
Quote:
Maybe, if you find your WiFi slider switch to be convoluted and inconvenient. If you like, I can explain its operation to you.
Clearly I was talking about your plan as being convoluted and inconvenient.
That 3G doesn't much matter, because it hasn't much mattered in the US yet. That good camera/video capabilities don't much matter, because they tend not to much matter in the US market. That the iPhone has sold well in the US, so its inevitable that it'll sell well elsewhere. That the Euros and Asians should want what we want.
Y'know, the typical garden variety arrogance.
I've never said any of this.
I've said that the iPhone would sell well in US because 3G hasn't yet been a big selling point.
I think you guys over play the importance of camera/video on phones. I've seen no correlation between the best selling phones having the best cameras.
I never said the iPhone would sell well everywhere because it sold well in the US. I actually said I didn't think the iPhone would sell as well because their is more competition in Europe. I said the iPhone will sell as well as the best selling phones in Europe. Which you've argued means the iPhone is selling poorly.
Not entirely. You need a chipset (hardware) that can support vid capture, more megapixels, etc. And of course there's the lens and physical space available for the camera, as you've pointed out.
"Showtime" has proven that the iPhone's camera supports video capture.
I think you guys over play the importance of camera/video on phones. I've seen no correlation between the best selling phones having the best cameras.
I don't think we are.
All we're saying is the camera in the iPhone is a bit shit for an expensive phone and deserves to be better and offering up comparisons.
Same with lack of 3G - that's a bit chit for an expensive phone.
Neither mean the iPhone is a bad phone, far from it. Lotus Elises are great cars but they're missing carpet, air con and an easy to use roof. They aren't Lexuss (Lexi?).
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell
I never said the iPhone would sell well everywhere because it sold well in the US. I actually said I didn't think the iPhone would sell as well because their is more competition in Europe. I said the iPhone will sell as well as the best selling phones in Europe. Which you've argued means the iPhone is selling poorly.
It's selling about ten times as many in the USA as Europe. Massive hit in the USA - An also ran in Europe. The reasons for that are partly stiffer competition, partly pricing and partly it's feature set. Apple can't change anything about the competition but the other two are open to improvement particularly in Europe where pricing is keener and phone features more advanced and more used.
All we're saying is the camera in the iPhone is a bit shit for an expensive phone and deserves to be better and offering up comparisons.
You are certainly free to your opinion. I don't see other people as concerned about it.
Quote:
Same with lack of 3G - that's a bit chit for an expensive phone.
From the O2 story about their network being strained from iPhone data use. At this point its only EDGE and GPRS. Would seem that O2 needs time to prepare their network for a 3G iPhone.
Sprint and Verizon having spend billions to spread 3G across the US. EDGE on AT&T is being used by the iPhone three times more than both Sprint and Verizon combined.
Quote:
It's selling about ten times as many in the USA as Europe. Massive hit in the USA - An also ran in Europe.
Its making more money per unit sold for Apple and O2. Than other phones make for their manufacturer and O2. Everyone involved seems to be fine with that.
Comments
If you take out EDGE, WiFi, and only have 1 GB flash storage, this 3G chipset can be in the current iPhone form factor too. But what is the point? The phone will be neutered.
Huh? Isn't EDGE nearly always integrated with the HSDPA (3G) chipset these days? Because most any HSDPA phone I know of will drop down to EDGE (or GPRS) if that's the only signal available. I'm sure if the W880 somehow doesn't do EDGE, it at least does GPRS.
Also, in the era of 8GB (and rising) microSD cards, is having only 1 GB of internal storage really so awful? The current SDHC spec for microSD cards goes on up to 32GB, we'll probably be seeing cards like that before too long.
WiFi? The chips are quite small. Even back in early 2006, they had ones that were only 20 square millimeters:
http://www.fiercebroadbandwireless.c...set/2006-02-22
Presumably there's even smaller ones available today, two years later. *shrug*
.
He's just expressing an opinion. He thinks the screen is overkill. I don't particularly agree. He also thinks GPRS and EDGE are old, slow, and outdated. Well, they are, really. He also thinks the camera is not up with those in better high-end phones. That's true too.
This attitude is so biased and short sighted that it misses reality. 3G may be widely offered in Europe but in reality is not widely used. Even though its fast their are problems with the practical use of mobile internet.
Apple is building an ecosystem that will help make mobile data practical and usable for everyone. I think the focus on HDPS vs EDGE misses the bigger picture. Market share of mobile Safari has quickly gained a primary role in mobile web browsing. Holding nearly 75% of mobile web browsing in the US. This is because Apple works on the entire user experience.
Apple lists nearly 1200 web sites dedicated to providing services for the iPhone. Including major companies such as Moviefone, Bank of America, FedEX, American Airlines, and the list continues to grow. Nearly every web site I frequent has a book mark web clip for the iPhone home screen. I have not seen other mobile companies successful build such an ecosystem dedicated to the mobile internet. Because Apple is pushing open standards in building mobile web services other mobile browsers will be also be able to take advantage of these services.
He's a Euro phone buyer with a different take on the market that what many Americans have. Instead of being hostile, it should instead be asked, "Okay, so what does the European market really want?".
I cannot hold Aegis as the official representative of every mobile phone user in Europe. Just as I cannot represent every mobile phone user in the US.
The N95 is quite a lot thicker, but it's also significantly shorter and narrower than the iPhone, and, surprisingly, lighter: There's more volume inside the N95 than the iPhone, but not as much more as ppl tend to think.
One of the advantages of carrying around a brick should be long battery life.
Neither WI or Anandtech appear to have tested both phones, from what I saw. The one source I've run across so far that has is Samsung itself, who claims 3 hours talk time for the 'Jack I, and 7 hours for the 'Jack II... a 133% improvement, and obviously far in excess of what one would expect from the better battery alone.
Obviously you have to take what Samsung says with subsequent salt.
Irrelevant to my argument but the reason phones in Europe often don't have EDGE is because we didn't bother with EDGE at all and went straight to 3G. Therefore it's not a sacrifice at all. Wifi isn't very common either or at least wasn't a few years back when those phones were designed.
Its not irrelevant. HDSPA is a family of services not all of them are the same. The smaller phones you speak of are able to allocate more of their energy budget to 3G chips than the iPhone is able. Not recognizing this is simply a distortion of the truth.
With the very high satisfaction ratings, people appear really happy with it too! It seems the screen size and UI are pretty important features to have.
...in the USA.
"According to O2, the iPhone has the highest satisfaction rating and the lowest return rate of any phone in its lineup. Moreover, iPhone users generate roughly 30 percent more revenue per user than the carrier’s average customer."
Fortune Magazine
I also mentioned that [turning 3G off and on] would be quite inconvenient!
It's not, really. You just have to know the code for the service menu. I do it all the time on my 3G Verizon flip phone... takes about 10 seconds. And, of course, turning 3G off or on could be as simple as flicking a slider on the side of the phone or a menu command, if the phonemaker wanted it to be.
I think his point is more that most people will not turn 3G off.
There is a slider to turn off WiFi. And I know if WiFi is off most of the time it extends iPhone battery life. But I really don't go through every day life thinking about how to optimize battery life for my phone. Very few other people will either.
This attitude is so biased and short sighted that it misses reality.
It's certainly not biased to say that EDGE and GPRS are slow and outdated, nor is it to say that the iPhone's camera/video capabilities aren't up with the best. That isn't missing reality, that, well, is reality.
The screen size issue alone is debatable, which is why I did not agree with aegis on that one.
3G may be widely offered in Europe but in reality is not widely used.
It's fairer to say, "Not widely used... yet", and yet, even that isn't really true. Italy's 3G penetration rate is 25% and rising. In most of the rest of Western Europe, 3G is starting to take off. And it does seem to be an expected feature on high-end phones.
But okay, let's focus on the fact that, right now, not in the near future, and not in Italy, and not so much on high-end phones, European 3G adoption rates are still fairly low, around 10%. What kind of device would change that, and accelerate 3G adoption? Could it be a device that provides a better mobile Internet user experience? Hmm... yeah, probably. And wouldn't such a device likely be... the iPhone?
I guess I don't understand the ultimate logic of having a device that makes people want 3G, and yet not providing 3G capability on said device.
I cannot hold Aegis as the official representative of every mobile phone user in Europe. Just as I cannot represent every mobile phone user in the US.
Well, I dunno Teno... you've certainly gone with the US-centric view at almost every opportunity.
One of the advantages of carrying around a brick should be long battery life.
Please. There's plenty of phones thicker than the N95. And dimensionally, if the N95's a brick, the iPhone's a plank.
Obviously you have to take what Samsung says with subsequent salt.
Really? They were actually very conservative in their talk time claims for the Blackjack I, if the Anandtech results are at all accurate.
And I've owned two Samsung cellphones thus far, and both got the claimed battery life.
.
I think his point is more that most people will not turn 3G off.
There is a slider to turn off WiFi. And I know if WiFi is off most of the time it extends iPhone battery life. But I really don't go through every day life thinking about how to optimize battery life for my phone. Very few other people will either.
Well, if we're going deeper into this hypothetical example, if that's the primary worry, simply have EDGE be the default. Let those who want 3G turn it on if they so choose. The kind of people (in the US) who would do so tend to be more tech-savvy anyways, and would less mind the occasional flick of a switch or menu command involved in turning 3G on or off.
And, of course, if someone ever complained that EDGE was too slow, Apple could simply go, "Hey, it's got 3G. Just turn it on. Duh."
.
It's certainly not biased to say that EDGE and GPRS are slow and outdated, nor is it to say that the iPhone's camera/video capabilities aren't up with the best. That isn't missing reality, that, well, is reality.
That is true. But you only focus on that missing everything else that goes on around it.
It's fairer to say, "Not widely used... yet", and yet, even that isn't really true. Italy's 3G penetration rate is 25% and rising. In most of the rest of Western Europe, 3G is starting to take off.
Yes 3G will grow. The way people proclaim its absolutely necessary is not in proportion to the number of people who actually use it.
But okay, let's focus on the fact that, right now, not in the near future, and not in Italy, European 3G adoption rates are still fairly low, around 10%. What kind of device would change that, and accelerate 3G adoption? Could it be a device that provides a better mobile Internet user experience? Hmm... yeah, probably. And wouldn't such a device likely be... the iPhone?
Your focus is entirely on 3G. 3G is one part of an entire system. It is an important part but not necessarily the most crucial part. This is reflected in the wide availability in Europe but the rather pedestrian use.
No its not the iPhone within itself that will raise mobile data use. The entire system has to work well. Web sites and services need to be tailored to the mobile device experience. User interface built for smaller screens and limited hardware resources. There needs to be adequate data speed. The mobile browser needs to render full AJAX and HTML, WAP is not good enough. The mobile device screen needs to be large and bright enough to read text created for a larger screen. While being small enough to comfortably fit in your pocket.
As far as I know no other mobile phone company attempted to bridge all of these gaps. Apple is making that effort.
I guess I don't understand the ultimate logic of having a device that makes people want 3G, and yet not providing 3G capability on said device.
You understand it. You just don't want to accept it.
Well, I dunno Teno... you've certainly gone with the US-centric view at almost every opportunity.
What exactly is the US-centric view?
Please. There's plenty of phones thicker than the N95. And dimensionally, if the N95's a brick, the iPhone's a plank.
Those other phones are even bigger bricks. I cannot fit an N95 comfortably in my jean pocket.
And, of course, if someone ever complained that EDGE was too slow, Apple could simply go, "Hey, it's got 3G. Just turn it on. Duh."
Sounds convoluted and inconvenient to me.
That is true. But you only focus on that missing everything else that goes on around it.
Not at all. I see all the good stuff that's in the iPhone-- Safari, OS X/UI, big screen, iTunes, etc -- it's just frustrating that Apple hasn't been quicker to capitalize on the good stuff they've already put into the iPhone. For example, you've got the world's best mobile browser, and a nice fast cpu for rendering web pages quickly... but... no 3G?? Wha??
It's kinda like owning a Ferrari, but only running it at 25 mph.
Yes 3G will grow. The way people proclaim its absolutely necessary is not in proportion to the number of people who actually use it.
Really? Check out Japan and Korea... 3G penetration rates already in excess of 50%, and climbing rapidly. They think it's necessary.
Even in Europe, where you could go "It's only 10%!", do you honestly think it's 10% in the high-end phone market, which is where the iPhone is competing? And do you honestly think it'll stay at 10% for the general market for long?
The funny thing is that you're arguing against the necessity of 3G, when the iPhone ITSELF will be driving the necessity of 3G, by making mobile browsing so much more popular.
Your focus is entirely on 3G. 3G is one part of an entire system. It is an important part but not necessarily the most crucial part.
It is the most crucial part because Apple is actually doing pretty well at all the other parts. The main bottleneck seems to be connection speed. I don't think any of us doubts that a 3G iPhone would positively fly on the Internet.
You understand it. You just don't want to accept it.
I understand it, and I don't accept it.
What exactly is the US-centric view?
That 3G doesn't much matter, because it hasn't much mattered in the US yet. That good camera/video capabilities don't much matter, because they tend not to much matter in the US market. That the iPhone has sold well in the US, so its inevitable that it'll sell well elsewhere. That the Euros and Asians should want what we want.
Y'know, the typical garden variety arrogance.
Those other phones are even bigger bricks. I cannot fit an N95 comfortably in my jean pocket.
Gosh Teno, the Motorola/Apple ROKR is almost exactly the same thickness as the N95. Were you loudly calling it a "brick" too when it came out? Doubt it.
And its not like the iPhone's form factor doesn't have its minuses too. I find it too wide to use one-handed comfortably. Plus, its a little taller/longer than I'd like, though not too bad.
Sounds convoluted and inconvenient to me.
Maybe, if you find your WiFi slider switch to be convoluted and inconvenient. If you like, I can explain its operation to you.
.
Huh? Isn't EDGE nearly always integrated with the HSDPA (3G) chipset these days? Because most any HSDPA phone I know of will drop down to EDGE (or GPRS) if that's the only signal available. I'm sure if the W880 somehow doesn't do EDGE, it at least does GPRS.
Yup. It drops down to GPRS when HSPA isn't available.
Also, in the era of 8GB (and rising) microSD cards, is having only 1 GB of internal storage really so awful? The current SDHC spec for microSD cards goes on up to 32GB, we'll probably be seeing cards like that before too long.
The Sony W880 has memory stick micro slot. It only comes with 16 MB internal storage. The Nokia 6500 classic does not have a microSD slot, but comes with 1 GB flash storage.
WiFi? The chips are quite small. Even back in early 2006, they had ones that were only 20 square millimeters
If they are so small, why doesn't the 6500 classic or the w880 have it? Could it be that they didn't have room in such small devices? Or it was merely un-needed in European or East Asian markets?
Same question about flash storage, 1+ Mbit/s HSPA, EDGE, and possibly goodies. Why weren't all of those features included in these small phones? We can even ask the question of the N95-1 and the N95-2. Why didn't Nokia just increase the thickness of the N95-2 more so it could include both a larger battery, 8 GB storage, and a microSD slot? Man, these questions are begging too much.
I honestly don't, offhand. You can own that, if you want.
That's really the only way to be sure. Otherwise, we're just guessing. I've looked at the FCC photos (Anandtech has the best picture (legible) of the PCB), and there doesn't seem to be a significant difference in chips. The chip packaging look the same, but the chips can obviously be different under the packaging. I'm also curious whether the OMAP processor on the Blackjack II is lower power as well.
The problem with that is that you seem to be taking the 4 hour talk time figure for the 'Jack I from Anandtech, and the 6 hour talk time figure for the 'Jack II from WirelessInfo. The two sites don't have the same testing methodologies.
Nope. I did search around. That's why I said "around". If it was from a particular website, I would have stated a more precise number.
Neither WI or Anandtech appear to have tested both phones, from what I saw. The one source I've run across so far that has is Samsung itself, who claims 3 hours talk time for the 'Jack I, and 7 hours for the 'Jack II... a 133% improvement, and obviously far in excess of what one would expect from the better battery alone.
I looked at MobileTechReview and GSMArena for the Blackjack. MTR said 4 to 4.5 hours of talk time in 3G areas time while quoting Cingular's statement of 5.5 hours. For the Blackjack II they got over 5 hours of talk time while quoting Samsungs statement of up to 7 hours. GSMArena just gives manufacturer quotes: the Blackjack at 4.75 hours and the Blackjack II at up to 7 hours.
Samsung's own website says the BlackJack has 5.5 hours of talk time, not 3 hours as you say.
It's not, really. You just have to know the code for the service menu. I do it all the time on my 3G Verizon flip phone... takes about 10 seconds.
The problem is, the carrier wants to make money off of 3G services, so they don't want you to turn 3G off and on whenever you feel like. But there is always a way.
10 seconds is too long. No would do it from a usability standpoint. Yes, there is always a way to do things, but that doesn't translate to easy to do or enjoyable. I know that if 3G hurt my talk time like that, I think I would just leave on EDGE.
The Sony W880 has memory stick micro slot. It only comes with 16 MB internal storage. The Nokia 6500 classic does not have a microSD slot, but comes with 1 GB flash storage.
Yah, but a microSD slot dosen't take up a lot of room... that's why they're called microSD slots.
Those phones could've had a slot without being significantly bigger, but I guess this is what you get when you're prioritizing a small form factor so strongly.
Same question about flash storage, 1+ Mbit/s HSPA, EDGE, and possibly goodies. Why weren't all of those features included in these small phones?
See above.
We can even ask the question of the N95-1 and the N95-2. Why didn't Nokia just increase the thickness of the N95-2 more so it could include both a larger battery, 8 GB storage, and a microSD slot?
Battery? They did increase the battery from what the original model had. The original had a 950 mAh batt, the 95-2 has a 1200 mAh batt.
Storage and microSD slot? Depending on the variant, the N95 should have either 8GB internal storage, or a microSD slot. Why not both? Probably for the same reason Apple doesn't have both on the iPhone... they figure that if there's a good amount of internal storage, then you shouldn't need a microSD slot.
I happen to disagree with both Nokia and Apple on that one.
.
Samsung's own website says the BlackJack has 5.5 hours of talk time, not 3 hours as you say.
Now it does, but it used to say 3 hours. Check out PhoneScoop, for example, which gets its specs from the maker and then seldom bothers to update them:
Samsung BlackJack SGH-i607
Battery Life: Talk: 3 hours (180 minutes)
Standby: 264 hours (11 days)
http://www.phonescoop.com/phones/phone.php?p=1066
Or, how about Amazon?:
Vital Statistics
The Samsung SGH-i607 weighs 3.50 ounces and measures 4.45 x 2.32 x 0.46 inches. Its lithium-ion battery is rated at up to 3.0 hours of digital talk time, and up to 264 hours of digital standby time.
http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-BlackJ.../dp/B000KJS8CI
Considering that battery life was widely considered to be the fatal flaw of the Blackjack I, it's very likely that Samsung either did one heck of a firmware update, started shipping a bigger battery with the phone, or both. And they sure wouldn't be the first phonemaker to have done so after the fact.
The usual phonemaker fix is to just ship it with the extended battery (because its the easiest) but I haven't looked up what they did here.
I looked at MobileTechReview and GSMArena for the Blackjack. MTR said 4 to 4.5 hours of talk time in 3G areas time while quoting Cingular's statement of 5.5 hours. For the Blackjack II they got over 5 hours of talk time while quoting Samsungs statement of up to 7 hours. GSMArena just gives manufacturer quotes: the Blackjack at 4.75 hours and the Blackjack II at up to 7 hours.
For the 'Jack I, those figures may be after Samsung's 'fix'. Or not. Were those reviews right at the 'Jack I's release, and remained unrevised later?
10 seconds is too long. No would do it from a usability standpoint. Yes, there is always a way to do things, but that doesn't translate to easy to do or enjoyable. I know that if 3G hurt my talk time like that, I think I would just leave on EDGE.
You're kinda missing the point, or you didn't read me and Teno's exchange. It wouldn't be 10 seconds, not if there were a slider or a menu command to turn 3G off/on. And maybe you'd be perfectly happy with leaving it on EDGE, while Joe Power User next to you decided to turn the 3G on.
That's the cool thing when you're offered choices... you get to make 'em.
.
Considering that battery life was widely considered to be the fatal flaw of the Blackjack I, it's very likely that Samsung either did one heck of a firmware update, started shipping a bigger battery with the phone, or both. And they sure wouldn't be the first phonemaker to have done so after the fact.
The usual phonemaker fix is to just ship it with the extended battery (because its the easiest) but I haven't looked up what they did here.
Based on the reviews I looked through, they ship a spare standard battery (for a total of 2 standard batteries) in the box. However, I kind of doubt that the reviewers that quote 4 to 4.5 hours of talk time are quoting talk time for 2 batteries as that would be one of those things people wouldn't casually forget about. I also find it hard to believe Samsung is doing that as well.
For the 'Jack I, those figures may be after Samsung's 'fix'. Or not. Were those reviews right at the 'Jack I's release, and remained unrevised later?
I have no idea. The MTR review is dated Nov 26, 2006, a mere 13 days after Phonescoop previewed it.
You're kinda missing the point, or you didn't read me and Teno's exchange. It wouldn't be 10 seconds, not if there were a slider or a menu command to turn 3G off/on. And maybe you'd be perfectly happy with leaving it on EDGE, while Joe Power User next to you decided to turn the 3G on.
That's the cool thing when you're offered choices... you get to make 'em.
I remembe talk of an easier way to switch the data bands. But it doesn't exist yet. If it was there sure, it'll be nice. Even with an easy way, it is still inconvenient. Push email is popular for reason.
it's just frustrating that Apple hasn't been quicker to capitalize on the good stuff they've already put into the iPhone.
They are capitalizing on it. That is the reason why there are nearly 1200 web services built for the iPhone. That is why thousands of websites have icon web clips. That is why 100,000 developers downloaded the SDK. That is why Google has seen a 50% surge in mobile internet traffic. This is why mobile Safari holds nearly 75% of the mobile marketshare in the US, inspite of Sprint and Verizon having widely deployed 3G networks. The iPhone holds 2% of worldwide smartphone marketshare, mobile Safari is just short of Symbian in browser marketshare.
Your focus is solely on the data connection. While Apple's focus is on the entire mobile experience. The results are clear.
Even in Europe, where you could go "It's only 10%!", do you honestly think it's 10% in the high-end phone market, which is where the iPhone is competing? And do you honestly think it'll stay at 10% for the general market for long?
According to Matthew Key CEO of O2 only 1.8% of other mobile phones use the highest amount of data as the iPhone on O2.
"Mr Key is excited about how iPhone customers are turning out to have a big appetite for data services. About 60 per cent are sending or receiving more than 25MB of data a month, which is the equivalent of sending 7,500 e-mails. By comparison, only 1.8 per cent of O2’s other mobile customers on monthly contracts are consuming more than 25MB a month."
The funny thing is that you're arguing against the necessity of 3G, when the iPhone ITSELF will be driving the necessity of 3G, by making mobile browsing so much more popular.
Again you are looking at it in black and white, for or against. I am not against 3G. I think it is important and Apple needs to adopt it as soon as possible. But I don't think it is as important as you do.
The main bottleneck seems to be connection speed. I don't think any of us doubts that a 3G iPhone would positively fly on the Internet.
"The iPhone is generating "unheard-of levels of mobile Internet usage," according to Vivek Dev, COO of Telefónica O2 Europe, the sole carrier of the device in the United Kingdom. Web browsing and e-mail are two of the primary purposes of the iPhone, and O2 customers have unlimited use under current plans. Traffic is said to be so high in fact that it is straining O2's network, and this is only expected to become worse as the company switches to flat data fees."
The bottleneck seems to be in O2's ability to handle the data traffic. O2 did not have to deal with this level of data usage from its other phones.
Maybe, if you find your WiFi slider switch to be convoluted and inconvenient. If you like, I can explain its operation to you.
Clearly I was talking about your plan as being convoluted and inconvenient.
That 3G doesn't much matter, because it hasn't much mattered in the US yet. That good camera/video capabilities don't much matter, because they tend not to much matter in the US market. That the iPhone has sold well in the US, so its inevitable that it'll sell well elsewhere. That the Euros and Asians should want what we want.
Y'know, the typical garden variety arrogance.
I've never said any of this.
I've said that the iPhone would sell well in US because 3G hasn't yet been a big selling point.
I think you guys over play the importance of camera/video on phones. I've seen no correlation between the best selling phones having the best cameras.
I never said the iPhone would sell well everywhere because it sold well in the US. I actually said I didn't think the iPhone would sell as well because their is more competition in Europe. I said the iPhone will sell as well as the best selling phones in Europe. Which you've argued means the iPhone is selling poorly.
Not entirely. You need a chipset (hardware) that can support vid capture, more megapixels, etc. And of course there's the lens and physical space available for the camera, as you've pointed out.
"Showtime" has proven that the iPhone's camera supports video capture.
"Showtime" has proven that the iPhone's camera supports video capture.
And yet, why isn't it enabled then?
To Teno and THT: Fascinating stuff guys, and as Teno knows, I can go on another hundred posts or so easily.
However, there's been a family emergency, so I'm gonna have to pick this up again in awhile. Don't miss me too much.
In the meanwhile, remember... you know you want it:
.
I think you guys over play the importance of camera/video on phones. I've seen no correlation between the best selling phones having the best cameras.
I don't think we are.
All we're saying is the camera in the iPhone is a bit shit for an expensive phone and deserves to be better and offering up comparisons.
Same with lack of 3G - that's a bit chit for an expensive phone.
Neither mean the iPhone is a bad phone, far from it. Lotus Elises are great cars but they're missing carpet, air con and an easy to use roof. They aren't Lexuss (Lexi?).
I never said the iPhone would sell well everywhere because it sold well in the US. I actually said I didn't think the iPhone would sell as well because their is more competition in Europe. I said the iPhone will sell as well as the best selling phones in Europe. Which you've argued means the iPhone is selling poorly.
It's selling about ten times as many in the USA as Europe. Massive hit in the USA - An also ran in Europe. The reasons for that are partly stiffer competition, partly pricing and partly it's feature set. Apple can't change anything about the competition but the other two are open to improvement particularly in Europe where pricing is keener and phone features more advanced and more used.
However, there's been a family emergency, so I'm gonna have to pick this up again in awhile. Don't miss me too much.
I hope everyone is OK.
In the meanwhile, remember... you know you want it:
I'm buying it as soon as it goes on sale.
All we're saying is the camera in the iPhone is a bit shit for an expensive phone and deserves to be better and offering up comparisons.
You are certainly free to your opinion. I don't see other people as concerned about it.
Same with lack of 3G - that's a bit chit for an expensive phone.
From the O2 story about their network being strained from iPhone data use. At this point its only EDGE and GPRS. Would seem that O2 needs time to prepare their network for a 3G iPhone.
Sprint and Verizon having spend billions to spread 3G across the US. EDGE on AT&T is being used by the iPhone three times more than both Sprint and Verizon combined.
It's selling about ten times as many in the USA as Europe. Massive hit in the USA - An also ran in Europe.
Its making more money per unit sold for Apple and O2. Than other phones make for their manufacturer and O2. Everyone involved seems to be fine with that.