Citigroup: Checks point to 3G iPhone within four months

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  • Reply 161 of 206
    thttht Posts: 5,421member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    Seeing as the N95 with EDGE lasts for 9 hours the 3G chips are still not nearly as energy efficient as EDGE.

    Obviously the N95 lasts longer than the iPhone because of its thicker battery.



    But its good to see you looking at the glass as half full for a change.



    I frankly don't know what the size of the iPhone battery is; haven't really looked, but for web-browsing it's very easy to understand will the iPhone has less life than other cell phones. It's actually quite complex to ferret out the power consumption drivers in web-browsing. Reviewers what have to do a multiple isolated setups. EDGE is lower power consumption, but is the browser burning too much CPU? 3G downloads faster and may burn less power versus EDGE which will download slower. Which CPU burns more energy while browsing? And this is time dependent as well.



    But as far as N95 browsing performance, or most other cell phones, it's pretty easy to explain at least the first order. The N95 lasts longer because its screen is twice as small, the graphics only has to drive half the pixels, and the brightness of the screen is only half as much as the iPhone. For web-browsing I have to imagine the size and brightness of the screen is the primary driver for battery performance. It isn't even reliable for reviewers to set the screen brightness at say 8/16 bars for each of the phones as 8/16 bars (half brightness) may not be equivalent brightness between phones. Reviewers really have to put a lux meter on it.
  • Reply 162 of 206
    aegisdesignaegisdesign Posts: 2,914member
    <Chuckle>, you're arguing about 'board space' on huge obsolete phones when it's plainly simple that that isn't an issue - just pick up a Nokia 6500 classic or SE W880.



    The iPhone is big because they had to fit in a virtual keyboard you can actually type on. After that they needed a huge battery to power the stupid overspec screen. And then they used ancient chips, ancient camera and ancient radio because they designed it ages ago and thought they'd get it out before it was obsolete in the USA. And you bought it.
  • Reply 163 of 206
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:

    Well actually T, no. Even the 1200 mAh batt on the 3G N95 isn't really that big. The iPhone's battery is actually larger, at 1400 mAh. So the N95 is beating the iPhone's batt life on the basis of lower power draw (screen, cpu, chipset), not more battery.



    Really? The N95 is twice the thickness of the iPhone. There should be space for a larger battery.



    Anandtech though did find the iPhone can browse WiFi for over 7 hours.
  • Reply 164 of 206
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:

    but for web-browsing it's very easy to understand will the iPhone has less life than other cell phones. It's actually quite complex to ferret out the power consumption drivers in web-browsing. Reviewers what have to do a multiple isolated setups. EDGE is lower power consumption, but is the browser burning too much CPU? 3G downloads faster and may burn less power versus EDGE which will download slower. Which CPU burns more energy while browsing?



    I agree. There are various factors: the power requirements of the radio chip, the time it takes to process and render the page, and the power required to display the page on the screen.



    As I mentioned above Anandtech found the iPhone last for seven hours over WiFi browsing. Apple can probably leverage the speed of Safari to lessen the power drain from the 3G chip.
  • Reply 165 of 206
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:

    The iPhone is big because they had to fit in a virtual keyboard you can actually type on. After that they needed a huge battery to power the stupid overspec screen. And then they used ancient chips, ancient camera and ancient radio because they designed it ages ago and thought they'd get it out before it was obsolete in the USA. And you bought it.



    Wow, Aegis. As Apple continues to improve the iPhone your contempt and cynicism towards it only grows.



    From your months of complaints it really seems the iPhone is not the solution to your mobile needs. You just like to hang around and piss in everyone else's corn flakes?
  • Reply 166 of 206
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    Really? The N95 is twice the thickness of the iPhone. There should be space for a larger battery.



    The N95 is quite a lot thicker, but it's also significantly shorter and narrower than the iPhone, and, surprisingly, lighter:



    iPhone: 4.5" x 2.4" x 0.46", 4.8 ounces

    N95: 3.9" x 2.09" x 0.83", 4.2 - 4.5 ounces (depending on model)



    There's more volume inside the N95 than the iPhone, but not as much more as ppl tend to think.





    .
  • Reply 167 of 206
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    Wow, Aegis. As Apple continues to improve the iPhone your contempt and cynicism towards it only grows.



    From your months of complaints it really seems the iPhone is not the solution to your mobile needs. You just like to hang around and piss in everyone else's corn flakes?



    He's just expressing an opinion. He thinks the screen is overkill. I don't particularly agree. He also thinks GPRS and EDGE are old, slow, and outdated. Well, they are, really. He also thinks the camera is not up with those in better high-end phones. That's true too.



    He's a Euro phone buyer with a different take on the market that what many Americans have. Instead of being hostile, it should instead be asked, "Okay, so what does the European market really want?". Because if Apple can figure that out and execute accordingly, the difference between that and now will be several million iPhones sold per year, and quite a lot of revenue/profit.





    .
  • Reply 168 of 206
    thttht Posts: 5,421member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post


    I can't believe you're so late to the party. Yes, both Teno and I already KNOW that 3G chipsets draw more power than EDGE, but what you may not be aware of is that recent 3G chipsets have improved in that regard.



    This thread hasn't really shown evidence of that. Do you know what 3G chipset the Blackjack I and II use? Who knows, we may even be able to dig their TDP.



    Quote:

    Gosh, it's like you haven't read this thread at all. Again, me and Teno already went over all that. The conclusion was that it wasn't only about battery life, but also about the iPhone's form factor.



    I apologize, but your battery claims caught my attention.



    Quote:

    Not exactly... more efficient ones were available since at least November. Samsung used one to help get over 6 hours talk time out of the 3G Blackjack II smartphone.



    This is where my skepticism flag was raised. The Blackjack II also has 1700 mAh battery compared to the 1200 mAh in the Blackjack I. That's a 42% increase right there. The times I see floating for battery drain tests of the Blackjack I is around 4 hours and the Blackjack II is around 6 hours. About 50% increase in talk time. With another 10% improvement from software, um, color me unimpressed. If the chipset change was from say a 90 nm chip to a 65 nm chip, I would expect something closer to a 30 to 40% increase using the same power source.



    And that N95 comment? That's the one that caught my attention! Wirelessinfo give a pretty bewildering set of numbers between the N95-1 and N95-3, I'd almost think they reversed them, but I don't think anyone is saying that the N95-2, -3 and -4 with its 25% increase in battery is translated to more than a 25% increase talk time.



    Quote:

    Well, there's this funny thing about 3G... you can turn it off, if you want to.



    I also mentioned that it would be quite inconvenient!
  • Reply 169 of 206
    thttht Posts: 5,421member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post


    <Chuckle>, you're arguing about 'board space' on huge obsolete phones when it's plainly simple that that isn't an issue - just pick up a Nokia 6500 classic or SE W880.



    Certainly a strange comment aegis. It's like everyone was talking about SUVs, and you trot out a Mini Cooper. Did you notice that these phones also support the lowest of the low "3G" data speed of 384 kbit/s? That they don't support WiFi either? The 6500 doesn't even a microSD slot. The W880 has a Sony memory stick slot an a front-facing camera, but doesn't have EDGE. They made a lot of sacrifices to get to their size.



    Actually very Apple like devices. Maybe Apple will use them as target phones for a prospective iPhone "nano".



    Quote:

    The iPhone is big because they had to fit in a virtual keyboard you can actually type on. After that they needed a huge battery to power the stupid overspec screen. And then they used ancient chips, ancient camera and ancient radio because they designed it ages ago and thought they'd get it out before it was obsolete in the USA. And you bought it.



    With the very high satisfaction ratings, people appear really happy with it too! It seems the screen size and UI are pretty important features to have.



    Heh. I did the calculations. The iPhone has a 3.64x larger screen area than the W880 and a 2.94x larger screen than the 6500 classic. Kind of funny! Normally, you'd think 30% or 50%, maybe 100%, larger is normal for quoting screen size differences. Using percentages. With these phone we're talking 300+ percent, and a muliplier is convenient to use. If they get any smaller and the iPhone gets bigger, we may have to use "order of magnitudes" type numbers.
  • Reply 170 of 206
    tbagginstbaggins Posts: 2,306member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by THT View Post


    This thread hasn't really shown evidence of that. Do you know what 3G chipset the Blackjack I and II use? Who knows, we may even be able to dig their TDP.



    I honestly don't, offhand. You can own that, if you want.





    Quote:

    This is where my skepticism flag was raised. The Blackjack II also has 1700 mAh battery compared to the 1200 mAh in the Blackjack I. That's a 42% increase right there. The times I see floating for battery drain tests of the Blackjack I is around 4 hours and the Blackjack II is around 6 hours. About 50% increase in talk time. With another 10% improvement from software, um, color me unimpressed.



    The problem with that is that you seem to be taking the 4 hour talk time figure for the 'Jack I from Anandtech, and the 6 hour talk time figure for the 'Jack II from WirelessInfo. The two sites don't have the same testing methodologies. For example, they both tested the iPhone, and this is what they got for battery life:



    iPhone Talk Time



    Anandtech 5 hours, 59 minutes

    Wireless Info 7 hours, 4 minutes



    iPhone Browsing Time



    Anandtech 5 hours, 43 minutes

    Wireless Info 5 hours, 13 minutes





    So, for an apples-to-apples comparison (pardon the pun), you'd need to get 'Jack I and 'Jack II battery life times from the same site.



    Neither WI or Anandtech appear to have tested both phones, from what I saw. The one source I've run across so far that has is Samsung itself, who claims 3 hours talk time for the 'Jack I, and 7 hours for the 'Jack II... a 133% improvement, and obviously far in excess of what one would expect from the better battery alone.





    Quote:

    the N95 hash



    Don't have time to look at that at the moment, will try to eventually. The Blackjack thing is the one me and Teno have discussed a lot.





    Quote:

    I also mentioned that [turning 3G off and on] would be quite inconvenient!



    It's not, really. You just have to know the code for the service menu. I do it all the time on my 3G Verizon flip phone... takes about 10 seconds. And, of course, turning 3G off or on could be as simple as flicking a slider on the side of the phone or a menu command, if the phonemaker wanted it to be.



    The problem is, the carrier wants to make money off of 3G services, so they don't want you to turn 3G off and on whenever you feel like. But there is always a way.



    .
  • Reply 171 of 206
    sapporobabysapporobaby Posts: 1,079member
    The fact remains that battery size and chip sets are what is really important. You can have a large battery and old chipset and you will still be able to browse fairly long, and vise versa. In the real world, who sits and browses on an iPhone or Nokia N or E series for 6 hours? Only people that have no friends, or a life. Hell, most people don't do this on a Mac or (dare I say it, PC). So these battery tests are academic in the real world.



    I want HSDPA for the few times a day when I need to check something. The fact that Apple missed this and went for EDGE instead is in my opinion just another way for them to sell 3G phones in the future, and short sighted on their part.
  • Reply 172 of 206
    aegisdesignaegisdesign Posts: 2,914member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by THT View Post


    Certainly a strange comment aegis. It's like everyone was talking about SUVs, and you trot out a Mini Cooper.



    To use you analogy, the point I'm making is you CAN fit an SUV engine in a Mini. In fact, the sportier versions of the Mini have engines which are more powerful than many of the SUVs. You don't need a big enclosure to fit 3G chips as both the 6500 and W880 prove.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by THT View Post


    Did you notice that these phones also support the lowest of the low "3G" data speed of 384 kbit/s? That they don't support WiFi either? The 6500 doesn't even a microSD slot. The W880 has a Sony memory stick slot an a front-facing camera, but doesn't have EDGE. They made a lot of sacrifices to get to their size.



    Irrelevant to my argument but the reason phones in Europe often don't have EDGE is because we didn't bother with EDGE at all and went straight to 3G. Therefore it's not a sacrifice at all. Wifi isn't very common either or at least wasn't a few years back when those phones were designed.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by THT View Post


    With the very high satisfaction ratings, people appear really happy with it too! It seems the screen size and UI are pretty important features to have.



    ...in the USA.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by THT View Post


    Heh. I did the calculations. The iPhone has a 3.64x larger screen area than the W880 and a 2.94x larger screen than the 6500 classic. Kind of funny! Normally, you'd think 30% or 50%, maybe 100%, larger is normal for quoting screen size differences. Using percentages. With these phone we're talking 300+ percent, and a muliplier is convenient to use. If they get any smaller and the iPhone gets bigger, we may have to use "order of magnitudes" type numbers.



    I've a 17" monitor here. It's way bigger than my iPhone so that must be way more useful to carry about in my pocket.
  • Reply 173 of 206
    backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    Aegis,



    The iPhone isn't for you.



    You seem to want a smaller screen, a higher mp camera phone and don't place much importance on the UI.



    Its just not for you.
  • Reply 174 of 206
    thttht Posts: 5,421member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post


    The fact remains that battery size and chip sets are what is really important. You can have a large battery and old chipset and you will still be able to browse fairly long, and vise versa. In the real world, who sits and browses on an iPhone or Nokia N or E series for 6 hours? Only people that have no friends, or a life. Hell, most people don't do this on a Mac or (dare I say it, PC). So these battery tests are academic in the real world.



    This argument doesn't make sense. One may not be browsing for 5 or 6 hours at time. However, one may do half an hour to an hour at a time multiple times a day. Note that I didn't include talking as being on the phone for 3 or 4 hours can be common occurance for long distance relationships. Talking on the phone for 5 or 6 hours a day, intermittantly, can also be common occurance for a lot of jobs. And of course, listening to music all day can happen. When combining all of the above, a cell phone may not last the day.



    The battery tests are academic in a way, but they are instructional on what to expect. Standardized testing is very important too as that is the only way to make comparisons with other phones, and to ensure they mimic realworld use.



    Quote:

    I want HSDPA for the few times a day when I need to check something. The fact that Apple missed this and went for EDGE instead is in my opinion just another way for them to sell 3G phones in the future, and short sighted on their part.



    If this is your usage pattern, is HSPA really something you need? I don't think HSPA will hit its stride until we do a lot of downloading of multi-MB files onto phones.
  • Reply 175 of 206
    aegisdesignaegisdesign Posts: 2,914member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by backtomac View Post


    Aegis,



    The iPhone isn't for you.



    You seem to want a smaller screen, a higher mp camera phone and don't place much importance on the UI.



    Its just not for you.



    I think you're taking my comments out of context. I'm just countering stupid excuses for why the iPhone doesn't do X and why X is important to some and available on other phones already. The whole can't do 3G because the chips are huge hungry powerstation consuming monsters is frankly bizarre as can be proven by the number of small 3G handsets out there already.



    I DO want an iPhone but I'm waiting for the next one as this one isn't that much better than what I've got already. The iPhone's UI is good, I've not said otherwise, but equally I've no real issues with UIQ on my current P910 either. It's not flashy but it works and doesn't get in my face. It's not difficult to use at all and demonstrably easier in some regards such as mass deleting SMS/Email. It also does ssh and vnc and runs TomTom which sadly now won't be happening till June or whenever the App Store launches. And I can use it as a modem for my laptop, which still isn't in the 2.0 software. I'm due a new phone and as I'm entirely Mac based, it'd make sense to use an Apple phone. Sadly, it's not ready for me.
  • Reply 176 of 206
    aegisdesignaegisdesign Posts: 2,914member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by THT View Post


    I don't think HSPA will hit its stride until we do a lot of downloading of multi-MB files onto phones.



    Oh FFS, get a clue...



    http://www.macworld.co.uk/digitallif...S&NewsID=20682



    "Mobile broadband is growing faster than mobile or fixed telephony ever did, Bergendahl said: "In Austria they are saying that mobile broadband will pass fixed broadband this year. It's already growing faster, and in Sweden, the most popular phone is a USB modem," said Bergendahl, who was the keynote speaker at the European Computer Audit, Control and Security Conference in Stockholm."
  • Reply 177 of 206
    thttht Posts: 5,421member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post


    To use you analogy, the point I'm making is you CAN fit an SUV engine in a Mini. In fact, the sportier versions of the Mini have engines which are more powerful than many of the SUVs. You don't need a big enclosure to fit 3G chips as both the 6500 and W880 prove.



    I really don't see how you can make this point. The discussion has been how much you can fit into a certain size form factor. For the 6500 classic and W880 and their smaller form factors, they didn't fit everything in. You do in fact need a big enclosure to have HSPA, EDGE, WiFi, storage, processors, etc. Not only that, they only support 3G at 384 kbit/s. They made a lot of sacrifices to get to their smaller sizes.



    If you take out EDGE, WiFi, and only have 1 GB flash storage, this 3G chipset can be in the current iPhone form factor too. But what is the point? The phone will be neutered.
  • Reply 178 of 206
    sapporobabysapporobaby Posts: 1,079member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by THT View Post


    This argument doesn't make sense. One may not be browsing for 5 or 6 hours at time. However, one may do half an hour to an hour at a time multiple times a day. Note that I didn't include talking as being on the phone for 3 or 4 hours can be common occurance for long distance relationships. Talking on the phone for 5 or 6 hours a day, intermittantly, can also be common occurance for a lot of jobs. And of course, listening to music all day can happen. When combining all of the above, a cell phone may not last the day.



    The battery tests are academic in a way, but they are instructional on what to expect. Standardized testing is very important too as that is the only way to make comparisons with other phones, and to ensure they mimic realworld use.







    If this is your usage pattern, is HSPA really something you need? I don't think HSPA will hit its stride until we do a lot of downloading of multi-MB files onto phones.



    I have a Nokia N82 with HSDPA, lasts the entire day. I am also wise enough not to expect a battery to last all day if I am using it. I think the operative word here is: "DUH" !!!!!.....



    HSDPA is working quite well in other countries it seems minus the US of course. It's like the argument that someone else here made, "I don't need 3G". Well how can you know what you are missing if you have never used it. Stick with EDGE, this seems better suited to your needs.
  • Reply 179 of 206
    thttht Posts: 5,421member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post


    Oh FFS, get a clue...



    http://www.macworld.co.uk/digitallif...S&NewsID=20682



    "Mobile broadband is growing faster than mobile or fixed telephony ever did, Bergendahl said: "In Austria they are saying that mobile broadband will pass fixed broadband this year. It's already growing faster, and in Sweden, the most popular phone is a USB modem," said Bergendahl, who was the keynote speaker at the European Computer Audit, Control and Security Conference in Stockholm."



    Ok, I'll amend my statement. HSPA on cell phones won't hit its stride until...
  • Reply 180 of 206
    thttht Posts: 5,421member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post


    I have a Nokia N82 with HSDPA, lasts the entire day. I am also wise enough not to expect a battery to last all day if I am using it. I think the operative word here is: "DUH" !!!!!.....



    Do you want to do some battery drain tests?



    Quote:

    HSDPA is working quite well in other countries it seems minus the US of course. It's like the argument that someone else here made, "I don't need 3G". Well how can you know what you are missing if you have never used it. Stick with EDGE, this seems better suited to your needs.



    Sheesh. Ask a simple question. It's like the response I got for asking how the performance of Silverthorne would compared to a Core 2 Duo. You really didn't answer my question. You said: "I want HSDPA for the few times a day when I need to check something." So, are you downloading multi-MBs of data a few times a day? Just Internet browsing? Downloading all of your email? Does 3G benefit you?



    It's perfectly ok to want 3G. I want it. So, I'm waiting on a 3G iPhone.
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