Did you ask this question on MacOSXHints.com earlier this week? I tried looking into it. It appears that better than 320Kbps audio can be sent, but the info wasn't enough to warrant an answer to the person asking the question. (I don't mind posting rumours and speculation here, but on their forums I try to be factual and to the point)
No I didn't ask it over there. Guess I'm not the only one curious. I thought Bluetooth maxed out at 115kbps, but just Googled it, and it wikipedia says 1Mbit/sec and 3Mbit/sec, so more bandwidth there than I was thinking.
Makes me wonder why bluetooth headsets for voice calls sound so crappy.
The sooner people understand that the iPhone is not so much a cell phone or smart phone as it is a mobile computing platform &c..
Whereas Japanese phones are total toilet. Read this from WIRED :
TOKYO -- Steve Jobs' new iPhone, expected to be unveiled Monday, is headed to Japan by the end of the year. But the device's famed ease of use may actually be a turnoff in Japan, where consumers want features, not simplicity.
Indeed, Japanese handsets have become prime examples of feature creep gone mad. In many cases, phones in Japan are far too complex for users to master.
"There are tons of buttons, and different combinations or lengths of time yield different results,'" says Koh Aoki, an engineer who lives in Tokyo.
Experimenting with different key combinations in search of new features is "good for killing time during a long commute," Aoki says, "but it's definitely not elegant."
Japan has long been famous for its advanced cellphones with sci-fi features like location tracking, mobile credit card payment and live TV. These handsets have been the envy of consumers in the United States, where cell technology has trailed an estimated five years or more. But while many phones would do Captain Kirk proud, most of the features are hard to use or not used at all.
"Some people care about quality, but first and foremost it's about the features," says Nobi Hayashi, a journalist and author of Steve Jobs: The Greatest Creative Director. He estimates that the average person only uses 5 to 10 percent of the functions available on their handsets.
I could be missing something here, but I interpret this study an entirely different way... isn't 9% planning on purchasing *really damn good*? I mean, if Apple took 9% of the market ANYWHERE that'd be amazing. So I'm pretty confused.
Makes me wonder why bluetooth headsets for voice calls sound so crappy.
I'd speculate that they use a much lower bitrate to reduce delay between the two parties.
For one thing, A2DP only needs to send data to the BT headset, not receive it too. And there is no need to balance the incoming and outgoing to reduce potential feedback. Plus, you can wait a second or two for your music to cache, but you need your call to be as instant as possible.
I could be missing something here, but I interpret this study an entirely different way... isn't 9% planning on purchasing *really damn good*? I mean, if Apple took 9% of the market ANYWHERE that'd be amazing. So I'm pretty confused.
Beyond features, there are two things that I can think of off the top of my head that radically need to be changed if the iPhone is going to take off in Japan...
• Search - Everything is based on ABCD... search with albums, contacts, etc. This drops all your kana and kanji into one group at the bottom. Pointless.
• Input - it's really horrible to type in Japanese on the iPod touch / iPhone. For example, if you want a character か you need to type in 'ka' and wait for it to convert.
Regular cell phones have a different input that is very fast for this..
Unless they really change the UI for the Japanese phone, there is no way large amounts of people in Japan are going to get into the iPhone anytime fast.
Personally, I was watching the ball game on my phone last night while waiting for the train. I'm not ready to give that up...
Doesn't always work so fabulously. I think it requires another chip.
#3 - Camera - I don't think my camera in my Docomo D902iS is ultra top notch, no more than 3.2 MP, but it does record video and it does have a whole slew of options to alter the gamma, size of photo, brightness, etc. Really Apple, come on. What's the hold up?
#4 - There are other chips in Japanese cellphones for paying, trains, and automatically using toll roads. I've not used these features but they seem really useful.
#5 - All phones here can use REAL email, not just SMS. Sure you can SMS to a phone number, but you can have an email address, [email protected], different for every carrier, and that email comes to your phone. I'm not sure if the phone is polling for updates or if the email is pushed. messages back and forth with friends through the phone email seems to go fast. So actually, I'm not sure if these carriers in japan can use their existing mail systems with iPhone's mail app.
#6 - Japan is RIDICULOUSLY expensive. The coolest phones, despite lack of touch screen, can weigh in at around $500 at Docomo. Softbanks scheme is that phones cost about $800, but the monthly plan is low. They divide the cost of the phone over 24 months and add it into the bill. Then you're paying the same as the other carriers. But as of now, Softbank's Unlimited Data plan for it's X-Series (smartphones) is $100 a month. Don't gripe about AT&T's $30/mo. I don't know if Apple persuaded them to offer a better deal on data, but pushing that they sell the actual phone so low is going to make a lot of people switching to softbank possibly interested in the low cost of the iPhone.
Regardless, I'll be getting one (unless data fees are absolutely ridiculous) and converting my friends!
* The Japanese seem to really buy on specs, not on usability, so the lack of HSUPA may be a turn off despite Japan just starting to roll it out this month.
On paper the iPhone would loose to many other smartphones, but that is only taking into account the hardware. For me at least, it is the software that really matters. You could have the most advanced phone in the world but if were running unusable software, there is no point to having any of that fancy hardware, except maybe for bragging rights.
For example, ATI has made some graphics cards that a physically more "advanced" then their nvidia counterparts, but when these cards are tested in the real world the nvidia cards almost always win.
The battery argument makes no sense if it is also true that these characters replace their phones every few months. If the iPhone does not fit the Japanese culture, so be it! It fits a lot of others' and it would be a great disservice to the rest of the world to make a phone for a subculture if it ignores the needs of people who want to use the iPhone for less frivolous things than ring tones and wallpapers-- oh how happy!
It IS after all not marketed as an entertainment device that, oh, btw, can be used as a communications device. Where's the beef?-- ah, right-- that is the other not-so-happy-with-America country.
This is really not about iPhone "features"--- sadly. If SONY and SamSung are not THE number one in the US, I guess there is a price to pay. But, again, who cares?
Since this survey was conducted before WWDC and the official announcement (and pricing, and plans), isn't this survey out of date before it even got published?
It's $199 with a 24-month subscription. The device's IMEI is being tied to a user and their CC. You better believe it's subsidized. If you don't believe me look at the international plans and the price variances for contract and without among the retailers.
The components or the manufacturing are only one aspect to a device's wholesale or retail price.
Ouragan said, "Apple doesn't subsidize the retail sale price of an iPhone."
He is right! Apple doesn't subsidize the cost of the iPhone. The carriers do!
This is not much of a surprise. Japan is usually inundated 24/7 with the newest and cutting edge in technology. Sure, the iPhone is nice but nothing worth going crazy over.
Exactly what I was going to say. What get an iPhone when you can get a phone with email and TV on it? Not to mention REAL cameras. 2MP iPhone camera? wtf? Can we get a better resolution please? At least 3.5, if not 5, like on most asian/some european phones.
The HW issues*, like the camera Mpx, and the OS X iPhone system issues, like the inability to cut an paste, maybe a turn off, but mobile TV can be had by a 3rd-party app on the device.
* The Japanese seem to really buy on specs, not on usability, so the lack of HSUPA may be a turn off despite Japan just starting to roll it out this month.
Whereas Japanese phones are total toilet. Read this from WIRED :
TOKYO -- Steve Jobs' new iPhone, expected to be unveiled Monday, is headed to Japan by the end of the year. But the device's famed ease of use may actually be a turnoff in Japan, where consumers want features, not simplicity.
Indeed, Japanese handsets have become prime examples of feature creep gone mad. In many cases, phones in Japan are far too complex for users to master.
"There are tons of buttons, and different combinations or lengths of time yield different results,'" says Koh Aoki, an engineer who lives in Tokyo.
Experimenting with different key combinations in search of new features is "good for killing time during a long commute," Aoki says, "but it's definitely not elegant."
Japan has long been famous for its advanced cellphones with sci-fi features like location tracking, mobile credit card payment and live TV. These handsets have been the envy of consumers in the United States, where cell technology has trailed an estimated five years or more. But while many phones would do Captain Kirk proud, most of the features are hard to use or not used at all.
"Some people care about quality, but first and foremost it's about the features," says Nobi Hayashi, a journalist and author of Steve Jobs: The Greatest Creative Director. He estimates that the average person only uses 5 to 10 percent of the functions available on their handsets.
This is absolutely true. Japanese phones have the most useless consumer electronic junk I've ever seen... but as long as it's "cute" it sells.
Ouragan said, "Apple doesn't subsidize the retail sale price of an iPhone."
He is right! Apple doesn't subsidize the cost of the iPhone. The carriers do!
His post didn't seem to be about pedantically correcting AI on who actually in subsidizing the actual cost of the handset, but that we can't assume that the device is being subsidized at all. Which he seems to back up with an example of the retail price of a 4GB SanDisk USB flash drive.
The battery argument makes no sense if it is also true that these characters replace their phones every few months. If the iPhone does not fit the Japanese culture, so be it! It fits a lot of others' and it would be a great disservice to the rest of the world to make a phone for a subculture if it ignores the needs of people who want to use the iPhone for less frivolous things than ring tones and wallpapers-- oh how happy!
It is all about the battery. It doesn't matter how one uses the device, it's lunacy that Apple has gone the route of non-user replaceable batteries on this 2nd gen iPhone.
And sure, Apple makes a tidy sum every time a new battery needs replacement. But to the user, it's a pain in the a**! I mean $80 plus shipping and 3 day turnaround? People rely on their phones for business every day. What do you do for 3 days without contact if you're on the road most of your working day?
IAnd sure, Apple makes a tidy sum every time a new battery needs replacement. But to the user, it's a pain in the a**! I mean $80 plus shipping and 3 day turnaround? People rely on their phones for business every day. What do you do for 3 days without contact if you're on the road most of your working day?
How often does a battery need changing? I know of no one that has gone out to get spare cell phone batteries*. It's a feature that people want but will not use. In the past, a user-replaceable battery was how you reset your phone when it locked up on you.
* I will be getting a Mophie Juice Pack when they come out with an iPhone 3G version. You might think this makes me an ideal candidate for wanting a user-replaceable abttery, but I don't want to carry a spare battery around or worry about a panel that pops off. I just want the extra juice as a built in protective case.
After lurking for years I have decided to come out with my 2 cents...why now? Who knows?
My only point is that originally everyone just wanted a cellphone that was also an ipod. Now we have one that is 500 times more than that and all people seem to be able to do is complain that it doesn't do enough. I for one would love a cellphone/ipod, and i think half the world that actually is oblivious to all this techie stuff would love this also. Sometimes more is less...
...don't think out of the gate the iPhone is meant to play into the Japanese Cell Phone Experience, so they won't be doing the usual things they may be used to. My point being it's a pretty unique market.
Correct. Japanese consumers are light years ahead of us in how they use their cells phones. Every day they use their phones in ways that might seem like science fiction to Americans. Advice to Steve Jobs: Take a trip to Japan and figure out that market. It'll benefit us all.
Comments
Did you ask this question on MacOSXHints.com earlier this week? I tried looking into it. It appears that better than 320Kbps audio can be sent, but the info wasn't enough to warrant an answer to the person asking the question. (I don't mind posting rumours and speculation here, but on their forums I try to be factual and to the point)
No I didn't ask it over there. Guess I'm not the only one curious. I thought Bluetooth maxed out at 115kbps, but just Googled it, and it wikipedia says 1Mbit/sec and 3Mbit/sec, so more bandwidth there than I was thinking.
Makes me wonder why bluetooth headsets for voice calls sound so crappy.
The sooner people understand that the iPhone is not so much a cell phone or smart phone as it is a mobile computing platform &c..
Whereas Japanese phones are total toilet. Read this from WIRED :
Makes me wonder why bluetooth headsets for voice calls sound so crappy.
I'd speculate that they use a much lower bitrate to reduce delay between the two parties.
For one thing, A2DP only needs to send data to the BT headset, not receive it too. And there is no need to balance the incoming and outgoing to reduce potential feedback. Plus, you can wait a second or two for your music to cache, but you need your call to be as instant as possible.
I could be missing something here, but I interpret this study an entirely different way... isn't 9% planning on purchasing *really damn good*? I mean, if Apple took 9% of the market ANYWHERE that'd be amazing. So I'm pretty confused.
Excellent point!
• Search - Everything is based on ABCD... search with albums, contacts, etc. This drops all your kana and kanji into one group at the bottom. Pointless.
• Input - it's really horrible to type in Japanese on the iPod touch / iPhone. For example, if you want a character か you need to type in 'ka' and wait for it to convert.
Regular cell phones have a different input that is very fast for this..
Unless they really change the UI for the Japanese phone, there is no way large amounts of people in Japan are going to get into the iPhone anytime fast.
Personally, I was watching the ball game on my phone last night while waiting for the train. I'm not ready to give that up...
#2 - 1Seg, the mobile TV in Japan - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1seg
Doesn't always work so fabulously. I think it requires another chip.
#3 - Camera - I don't think my camera in my Docomo D902iS is ultra top notch, no more than 3.2 MP, but it does record video and it does have a whole slew of options to alter the gamma, size of photo, brightness, etc. Really Apple, come on. What's the hold up?
#4 - There are other chips in Japanese cellphones for paying, trains, and automatically using toll roads. I've not used these features but they seem really useful.
#5 - All phones here can use REAL email, not just SMS. Sure you can SMS to a phone number, but you can have an email address, [email protected], different for every carrier, and that email comes to your phone. I'm not sure if the phone is polling for updates or if the email is pushed. messages back and forth with friends through the phone email seems to go fast. So actually, I'm not sure if these carriers in japan can use their existing mail systems with iPhone's mail app.
#6 - Japan is RIDICULOUSLY expensive. The coolest phones, despite lack of touch screen, can weigh in at around $500 at Docomo. Softbanks scheme is that phones cost about $800, but the monthly plan is low. They divide the cost of the phone over 24 months and add it into the bill. Then you're paying the same as the other carriers. But as of now, Softbank's Unlimited Data plan for it's X-Series (smartphones) is $100 a month. Don't gripe about AT&T's $30/mo. I don't know if Apple persuaded them to offer a better deal on data, but pushing that they sell the actual phone so low is going to make a lot of people switching to softbank possibly interested in the low cost of the iPhone.
Regardless, I'll be getting one (unless data fees are absolutely ridiculous) and converting my friends!
* The Japanese seem to really buy on specs, not on usability, so the lack of HSUPA may be a turn off despite Japan just starting to roll it out this month.
On paper the iPhone would loose to many other smartphones, but that is only taking into account the hardware. For me at least, it is the software that really matters. You could have the most advanced phone in the world but if were running unusable software, there is no point to having any of that fancy hardware, except maybe for bragging rights.
For example, ATI has made some graphics cards that a physically more "advanced" then their nvidia counterparts, but when these cards are tested in the real world the nvidia cards almost always win.
It IS after all not marketed as an entertainment device that, oh, btw, can be used as a communications device. Where's the beef?-- ah, right-- that is the other not-so-happy-with-America country.
This is really not about iPhone "features"--- sadly. If SONY and SamSung are not THE number one in the US, I guess there is a price to pay. But, again, who cares?
It's $199 with a 24-month subscription. The device's IMEI is being tied to a user and their CC. You better believe it's subsidized. If you don't believe me look at the international plans and the price variances for contract and without among the retailers.
The components or the manufacturing are only one aspect to a device's wholesale or retail price.
Ouragan said, "Apple doesn't subsidize the retail sale price of an iPhone."
He is right! Apple doesn't subsidize the cost of the iPhone. The carriers do!
This is not much of a surprise. Japan is usually inundated 24/7 with the newest and cutting edge in technology. Sure, the iPhone is nice but nothing worth going crazy over.
Exactly what I was going to say. What get an iPhone when you can get a phone with email and TV on it? Not to mention REAL cameras. 2MP iPhone camera? wtf? Can we get a better resolution please? At least 3.5, if not 5, like on most asian/some european phones.
The HW issues*, like the camera Mpx, and the OS X iPhone system issues, like the inability to cut an paste, maybe a turn off, but mobile TV can be had by a 3rd-party app on the device.
* The Japanese seem to really buy on specs, not on usability, so the lack of HSUPA may be a turn off despite Japan just starting to roll it out this month.
Totally.
Whereas Japanese phones are total toilet. Read this from WIRED :
This is absolutely true. Japanese phones have the most useless consumer electronic junk I've ever seen... but as long as it's "cute" it sells.
Ouragan said, "Apple doesn't subsidize the retail sale price of an iPhone."
He is right! Apple doesn't subsidize the cost of the iPhone. The carriers do!
His post didn't seem to be about pedantically correcting AI on who actually in subsidizing the actual cost of the handset, but that we can't assume that the device is being subsidized at all. Which he seems to back up with an example of the retail price of a 4GB SanDisk USB flash drive.
The battery argument makes no sense if it is also true that these characters replace their phones every few months. If the iPhone does not fit the Japanese culture, so be it! It fits a lot of others' and it would be a great disservice to the rest of the world to make a phone for a subculture if it ignores the needs of people who want to use the iPhone for less frivolous things than ring tones and wallpapers-- oh how happy!
It is all about the battery. It doesn't matter how one uses the device, it's lunacy that Apple has gone the route of non-user replaceable batteries on this 2nd gen iPhone.
And sure, Apple makes a tidy sum every time a new battery needs replacement. But to the user, it's a pain in the a**! I mean $80 plus shipping and 3 day turnaround? People rely on their phones for business every day. What do you do for 3 days without contact if you're on the road most of your working day?
IAnd sure, Apple makes a tidy sum every time a new battery needs replacement. But to the user, it's a pain in the a**! I mean $80 plus shipping and 3 day turnaround? People rely on their phones for business every day. What do you do for 3 days without contact if you're on the road most of your working day?
How often does a battery need changing? I know of no one that has gone out to get spare cell phone batteries*. It's a feature that people want but will not use. In the past, a user-replaceable battery was how you reset your phone when it locked up on you.
* I will be getting a Mophie Juice Pack when they come out with an iPhone 3G version. You might think this makes me an ideal candidate for wanting a user-replaceable abttery, but I don't want to carry a spare battery around or worry about a panel that pops off. I just want the extra juice as a built in protective case.
My only point is that originally everyone just wanted a cellphone that was also an ipod. Now we have one that is 500 times more than that and all people seem to be able to do is complain that it doesn't do enough. I for one would love a cellphone/ipod, and i think half the world that actually is oblivious to all this techie stuff would love this also. Sometimes more is less...
...don't think out of the gate the iPhone is meant to play into the Japanese Cell Phone Experience, so they won't be doing the usual things they may be used to. My point being it's a pretty unique market.
Correct. Japanese consumers are light years ahead of us in how they use their cells phones. Every day they use their phones in ways that might seem like science fiction to Americans. Advice to Steve Jobs: Take a trip to Japan and figure out that market. It'll benefit us all.