But did you ever stop to consider that it's the company you're praising and defending that's causing all of these problems by refusing to allow it's OS to run on anything other than Apple hardware?
The lack of competition on the hardware front, and the very high prices of Apple hardware.
I don't think the high price is the issue per se, its the high price coupled with the now seemingly more common feeling that there is a lack of value/performance in the products.
the quality and performance is no longer there and as 'PC' and general component prices drop its harder to justify paying sometimes normally double the price just to run OSX.
doubly hard when you know that the actual margins on the products is massive! I guess some people just like to give iCon their cash.
It seems that unless a product is running OSX, it is dismissed outright in these parts. And you get some crazy comments whereby the competition should pack their bags and go home because they are never going to win. But did you ever stop to consider that it's the company you're praising and defending that's causing all of these problems by refusing to allow it's OS to run on anything other than Apple hardware? The problem isn't 'haha crappy Dell and their crappy laptops' it's 'haha crappy Apple and refusing to let me install OSX on my Dell laptop'. The quicker some of you realise that the quicker we might actually see OSX as a standalone OS for a whole range of non-Apple hardware.
I don't think the high price is the issue per se, its the high price coupled with the now seemingly more common feeling that there is a lack of value/performance in the products.
the quality and performance is no longer there and as 'PC' and general component prices drop its harder to justify paying sometimes normally double the price just to run OSX.
doubly hard when you know that the actual margins on the products is massive! I guess some people just like to give iCon their cash.
Right and people who buy laptops are concerned about the margins the company is making on the sale.
It's perfectly obvious how Dell can make a laptop thinner than the MacBook Air. Just drop the HDD and mount the flash directly on the motherboard.
The next update to the MacBook air will come when Intel release the SL9600, due in April.
Like I said...no MacBook Air update until at least spring. With the exception of a 17" Unibody MBP, the notebook line is set for a few months. Now there needs to be a round of updates for their desktop line up across the board, MacMini, iMac, and MacPro (and Xserve). By then, it will be time for iPod, and/or iPhone updates.
And weight, which is the most important in that category. AFAIK, MBA had the fastest processor in the ultralight category. As far as footprint goes I really don't think anything smaller than 13" with less that full keyboard can be practical and comfortable to use. Footprint is important for netbooks and clealy Apple did not release anything in that category yet.
The 12" Powerbook had a full size keyboard, and it didn't have bezel around the keyboard. The Air has a wider than usual bezel around the screen and keyboard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrochester
It seems that unless a product is running OSX, it is dismissed outright in these parts. And you get some crazy comments whereby the competition should pack their bags and go home because they are never going to win. But did you ever stop to consider that it's the company you're praising and defending that's causing all of these problems by refusing to allow it's OS to run on anything other than Apple hardware? The problem isn't 'haha crappy Dell and their crappy laptops' it's 'haha crappy Apple and refusing to let me install OSX on my Dell laptop'. The quicker some of you realise that the quicker we might actually see OSX as a standalone OS for a whole range of non-Apple hardware.
You need to explain how it would be in Apple's interests, because that's the only reason they'll take up your request - it needs to be in their best interests. Apple don't care about the customer to the point of losing profits just to make everyone happy. They are a businesses. However, in my experience, Apple's support is quite good. I don't have to place a call to another continent to get help, I get someone that I can understand. And I can bring the machine to some place reasonably local to me rather than placing a call, or having the computer shipped to another part of the country to get fixed. If you're only adding the cost of the subcomponents to arrive at a value for the machine, you're missing a lot of the picture. And forgetting that there's a lot of value in the OS that the gross margin figures don't account for because they don't pay a third party for a license.
How will Apple be more successful if they allowed people to officially run OS X on non-Apple hardware? Remember, Apple is a business, market share and installed base is less important than net profits. The only reason Dell isn't hurting as much as other PC makers is because they aren't chained to any retail business model, they are mainly a web store, their retail sales are a side show. A loss in hardware sales and added support costs of supporting third party hardware may mean that they'll have to sell 10 individual copies of OS X for every lost hardware sale to make the same money. As long as Apple is raking in the money, there's no need to address the concerns of the budget-minded, that would be a serious business mistake. Not understanding how to operate a business seems to be a common theme among a lot of tech geeks - that might help explain part of why so many small PC retailers die premature deaths. The idea that you want Apple to compete against other companies also selling Apple's product is also ludicrous. Why would anyone want to compete against themselves? I think that's evidence in itself that the complainers are either crazy or aren't thinking things through.
Dell doesn't make all bad machines. Some of their lower end "cheap" computers are just that.. cheap, and kind of crappy, but that doesn't speak for everything. Many of their machines are made very well, and are awesome machines. The "Dell sucks!!" mentality many places is just as bad as the "Macs use 1 mouse button, and is only for for graphics design" crap spread around most places too.
Dell doesn't make all bad machines. Some of their lower end "cheap" computers are just that.. cheap, and kind of crappy, but that doesn't speak for everything. Many of their machines are made very well, and are awesome machines. The "Dell sucks!!" mentality many places is just as bad as the "Macs use 1 mouse button, and is only for for graphics design" crap spread around most places too.
Given their average sale price, most of Dell's sales are to the low end though. Mac fans don't pay any attention to the more expensive Dells except when they want to show that the Mac equivalent is cheaper for the same feature set.
I've never had to deal with a high-end Dell, though I own some Compaq & DEC workstations and Compaq business notebooks, which are all pretty nice machines, at least the ones that I have.
You can bet it'll have ethernet, multiple usb ports, removable battery, and maybe even Firewire...just to show up Apple. Unfortunately, it'll also have Windows XP.
With regards to the removable battery, I think you'll lose that bet. That involves extra thickness, both with case and battery.
Thank you! Thank you! Balance people. I'm still an XP user (been stable, without problems for three years, but own an iPhone) and my friends have all bought new Macbooks. I'm still not convinced that OS X is the best. I will concede that the new models are pretty nice, but an all aluminum body with a glass screen doesn't necessarily mean it's better or nicer. I rather think the new Dell looks nice. And, honestly, more competition, regardless of what it is, is a good thing. If either of the companies makes a slightly better model than the other, then the other plays catch up and passes it. That's a good thing. If Dell makes something nice here (and it comes out before the new Air) then it means Apple will make something even nicer.
It's funny all this talk...
I used Vista for over a year - not a single driver problem.
Now if you had a PC that was 5 years old... Yes, you would run into problems... I believe the same problem would run with the Mac OS!
I am on 10.5.6 and it may seem a bit more stable than Vista (although I never experienced the crashes people said... Mind you I buy new computers, so I didn't run into issues. My friend owns a Mac and he can't upgrade to Mac OS 10.5
Keep in mind folks, that I have been through countless hardware issues with Apple. Now this can happen with any computer - Mac or Windows, but the most hardware issues have been with Apple... Take it for what its worth - burnt pixels out of box, gradient displays and loud annoying hums from the fans. And yes PCs are noisy, but when the Mac is virtually silent and you hear these annoying hum noises... it can be hell in a quiet room... Google it...
"iMac gradient display issues" or "iMac humming noises"
I am not the only one folks...
Apple needs to build a better product if they want to charge a premium for outdated specs. Period.
Now I still like Apple, but I don't think they are that much better than PCs... Sorry. I paid $2300 CDN for my iMac. I expected better than that of a $500 PC.
I don't think the high price is the issue per se, its the high price coupled with the now seemingly more common feeling that there is a lack of value/performance in the products.
the quality and performance is no longer there and as 'PC' and general component prices drop its harder to justify paying sometimes normally double the price just to run OSX.
doubly hard when you know that the actual margins on the products is massive! I guess some people just like to give iCon their cash.
This is just your opinion, and one that is not held by all. Apple's laptops have been selling very well for quite some time now, so evidently many people are satisfied with their level of value and performance.
As for the high margins, kudos for Apple for being able to pull that off. The most successful companies are those that carefully set their margin targets and stick to them with thoughtful product development and clever engineering.
How will Apple be more successful if they allowed people to officially run OS X on non-Apple hardware?
Just the same way that Microsoft is successful by letting people run Windows on any hardware?
Look at it this way... Apple have made a desirable OS. The only way to get that desirable OS is to buy their overpriced, locked down hardware. There are suckers out there who will fall for this, and gladly let Apple rip them off just to get OSX, which gives Apple the impression that they can continue as they are. On the other hand, there are many thousands more who are slightly wiser than this, and who realise the tactics Apple are using. If Apple want *my* business and *my* money, they are going to have to give *me* the product *I* want, not what they tell me I should have. If they don't, then I will just have to find some other way to use their product, which means they don't get any of my business or any of my money, but I still have the pleasure of using their product .
What I want is a reasonably priced laptop running OSX. Apple fail to provide me with the reasonably priced hardware, so I am also therefore disqualified from running OSX. However, I can easily get around being disqualified from running the OS, which ultimately means Apple gets nothing from me instead of the £70 or so I'd be prepared to pay for their OS.
OH PUUH-LLEEEEASE! Dell computers are practically overated pieces of crap! Apple will beat them second to none!
Macs are PC's. They use the same damn parts. You'd like to think you are getting something special with a mac but it's the same parts found in a million other computers out there.
Macs are PC's. They use the same damn parts. You'd like to think you are getting something special with a mac but it's the same parts found in a million other computers out there.
While true, Apple is using A lot of "standard" PC parts, all the boards, and components are still custom designed and fabricated with top of the line components.
Macs are PC's. They use the same damn parts. You'd like to think you are getting something special with a mac but it's the same parts found in a million other computers out there.
Sure, if you think of a computer as no more than a pile of ICs and a display panel. At least Apple doesn't use RealTek ICs and floor-sweepings for memory chips that I'm aware of, among other things.
Dell doesn't make all bad machines. Some of their lower end "cheap" computers are just that.. cheap, and kind of crappy, but that doesn't speak for everything. Many of their machines are made very well, and are awesome machines. The "Dell sucks!!" mentality many places is just as bad as the "Macs use 1 mouse button, and is only for for graphics design" crap spread around most places too.
I spent six years working as a computer technician and I've repaired thousands of Dell computers, old and new, 'high-end' and introductory. They're crap. The XPS machines are certainly better, but they're still built with parts from the highest bidder, and they still have a depressing failure rate. And Dell's customer support is still inbred. At least the XPS towers are somewhat well designed and easy to take apart, though nothing like a Mac Pro. But they're every bit as huge.
There's a good reason why Dell has a terrible reputation among the people who actually build and repair computers. It isn't just a trend with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by archer75
Macs are PC's. They use the same damn parts. You'd like to think you are getting something special with a mac but it's the same parts found in a million other computers out there.
Only true to an extent when you compare very high-end computers. Certain common items like the processor are universal, of course, but even components like RAM tend to be much cheaper and less reliable in your typical HP, Gateway, Dell. Motherboards are often custom-designed for the Apple computers and special capabilities are implemented well. What really sets the two apart, though, is the degree to which Apples are carefully designed and tested. You rarely see the same sort of reliability in another system. Buy your family members home-made computers and you'll start to see the difference here.
Comments
But did you ever stop to consider that it's the company you're praising and defending that's causing all of these problems by refusing to allow it's OS to run on anything other than Apple hardware?
"all these problems" What problems?
"all these problems" What problems?
The lack of competition on the hardware front, and the very high prices of Apple hardware.
The lack of competition on the hardware front, and the very high prices of Apple hardware.
I don't think the high price is the issue per se, its the high price coupled with the now seemingly more common feeling that there is a lack of value/performance in the products.
the quality and performance is no longer there and as 'PC' and general component prices drop its harder to justify paying sometimes normally double the price just to run OSX.
doubly hard when you know that the actual margins on the products is massive! I guess some people just like to give iCon their cash.
It seems that unless a product is running OSX, it is dismissed outright in these parts. And you get some crazy comments whereby the competition should pack their bags and go home because they are never going to win. But did you ever stop to consider that it's the company you're praising and defending that's causing all of these problems by refusing to allow it's OS to run on anything other than Apple hardware? The problem isn't 'haha crappy Dell and their crappy laptops' it's 'haha crappy Apple and refusing to let me install OSX on my Dell laptop'. The quicker some of you realise that the quicker we might actually see OSX as a standalone OS for a whole range of non-Apple hardware.
Go and tell Dell to develop their own 'OSX".
I don't think the high price is the issue per se, its the high price coupled with the now seemingly more common feeling that there is a lack of value/performance in the products.
the quality and performance is no longer there and as 'PC' and general component prices drop its harder to justify paying sometimes normally double the price just to run OSX.
doubly hard when you know that the actual margins on the products is massive! I guess some people just like to give iCon their cash.
Right and people who buy laptops are concerned about the margins the company is making on the sale.
It's perfectly obvious how Dell can make a laptop thinner than the MacBook Air. Just drop the HDD and mount the flash directly on the motherboard.
The next update to the MacBook air will come when Intel release the SL9600, due in April.
Like I said...no MacBook Air update until at least spring. With the exception of a 17" Unibody MBP, the notebook line is set for a few months. Now there needs to be a round of updates for their desktop line up across the board, MacMini, iMac, and MacPro (and Xserve). By then, it will be time for iPod, and/or iPhone updates.
And weight, which is the most important in that category. AFAIK, MBA had the fastest processor in the ultralight category. As far as footprint goes I really don't think anything smaller than 13" with less that full keyboard can be practical and comfortable to use. Footprint is important for netbooks and clealy Apple did not release anything in that category yet.
The 12" Powerbook had a full size keyboard, and it didn't have bezel around the keyboard. The Air has a wider than usual bezel around the screen and keyboard.
It seems that unless a product is running OSX, it is dismissed outright in these parts. And you get some crazy comments whereby the competition should pack their bags and go home because they are never going to win. But did you ever stop to consider that it's the company you're praising and defending that's causing all of these problems by refusing to allow it's OS to run on anything other than Apple hardware? The problem isn't 'haha crappy Dell and their crappy laptops' it's 'haha crappy Apple and refusing to let me install OSX on my Dell laptop'. The quicker some of you realise that the quicker we might actually see OSX as a standalone OS for a whole range of non-Apple hardware.
You need to explain how it would be in Apple's interests, because that's the only reason they'll take up your request - it needs to be in their best interests. Apple don't care about the customer to the point of losing profits just to make everyone happy. They are a businesses. However, in my experience, Apple's support is quite good. I don't have to place a call to another continent to get help, I get someone that I can understand. And I can bring the machine to some place reasonably local to me rather than placing a call, or having the computer shipped to another part of the country to get fixed. If you're only adding the cost of the subcomponents to arrive at a value for the machine, you're missing a lot of the picture. And forgetting that there's a lot of value in the OS that the gross margin figures don't account for because they don't pay a third party for a license.
How will Apple be more successful if they allowed people to officially run OS X on non-Apple hardware? Remember, Apple is a business, market share and installed base is less important than net profits. The only reason Dell isn't hurting as much as other PC makers is because they aren't chained to any retail business model, they are mainly a web store, their retail sales are a side show. A loss in hardware sales and added support costs of supporting third party hardware may mean that they'll have to sell 10 individual copies of OS X for every lost hardware sale to make the same money. As long as Apple is raking in the money, there's no need to address the concerns of the budget-minded, that would be a serious business mistake. Not understanding how to operate a business seems to be a common theme among a lot of tech geeks - that might help explain part of why so many small PC retailers die premature deaths. The idea that you want Apple to compete against other companies also selling Apple's product is also ludicrous. Why would anyone want to compete against themselves? I think that's evidence in itself that the complainers are either crazy or aren't thinking things through.
The lack of competition on the hardware front, and the very high prices of Apple hardware.
Curious that you say that. I thought that the thread was all about how this new, thin Dell would compete with the MBA.
Dell doesn't make all bad machines. Some of their lower end "cheap" computers are just that.. cheap, and kind of crappy, but that doesn't speak for everything. Many of their machines are made very well, and are awesome machines. The "Dell sucks!!" mentality many places is just as bad as the "Macs use 1 mouse button, and is only for for graphics design" crap spread around most places too.
Given their average sale price, most of Dell's sales are to the low end though. Mac fans don't pay any attention to the more expensive Dells except when they want to show that the Mac equivalent is cheaper for the same feature set.
I've never had to deal with a high-end Dell, though I own some Compaq & DEC workstations and Compaq business notebooks, which are all pretty nice machines, at least the ones that I have.
You can bet it'll have ethernet, multiple usb ports, removable battery, and maybe even Firewire...just to show up Apple. Unfortunately, it'll also have Windows XP.
With regards to the removable battery, I think you'll lose that bet. That involves extra thickness, both with case and battery.
Thank you! Thank you! Balance people. I'm still an XP user (been stable, without problems for three years, but own an iPhone) and my friends have all bought new Macbooks. I'm still not convinced that OS X is the best. I will concede that the new models are pretty nice, but an all aluminum body with a glass screen doesn't necessarily mean it's better or nicer. I rather think the new Dell looks nice. And, honestly, more competition, regardless of what it is, is a good thing. If either of the companies makes a slightly better model than the other, then the other plays catch up and passes it. That's a good thing. If Dell makes something nice here (and it comes out before the new Air) then it means Apple will make something even nicer.
It's funny all this talk...
I used Vista for over a year - not a single driver problem.
Now if you had a PC that was 5 years old... Yes, you would run into problems... I believe the same problem would run with the Mac OS!
I am on 10.5.6 and it may seem a bit more stable than Vista (although I never experienced the crashes people said... Mind you I buy new computers, so I didn't run into issues. My friend owns a Mac and he can't upgrade to Mac OS 10.5
Keep in mind folks, that I have been through countless hardware issues with Apple. Now this can happen with any computer - Mac or Windows, but the most hardware issues have been with Apple... Take it for what its worth - burnt pixels out of box, gradient displays and loud annoying hums from the fans. And yes PCs are noisy, but when the Mac is virtually silent and you hear these annoying hum noises... it can be hell in a quiet room... Google it...
"iMac gradient display issues" or "iMac humming noises"
I am not the only one folks...
Apple needs to build a better product if they want to charge a premium for outdated specs. Period.
Now I still like Apple, but I don't think they are that much better than PCs... Sorry. I paid $2300 CDN for my iMac. I expected better than that of a $500 PC.
I don't think the high price is the issue per se, its the high price coupled with the now seemingly more common feeling that there is a lack of value/performance in the products.
the quality and performance is no longer there and as 'PC' and general component prices drop its harder to justify paying sometimes normally double the price just to run OSX.
doubly hard when you know that the actual margins on the products is massive! I guess some people just like to give iCon their cash.
This is just your opinion, and one that is not held by all. Apple's laptops have been selling very well for quite some time now, so evidently many people are satisfied with their level of value and performance.
As for the high margins, kudos for Apple for being able to pull that off. The most successful companies are those that carefully set their margin targets and stick to them with thoughtful product development and clever engineering.
How will Apple be more successful if they allowed people to officially run OS X on non-Apple hardware?
Just the same way that Microsoft is successful by letting people run Windows on any hardware?
Look at it this way... Apple have made a desirable OS. The only way to get that desirable OS is to buy their overpriced, locked down hardware. There are suckers out there who will fall for this, and gladly let Apple rip them off just to get OSX, which gives Apple the impression that they can continue as they are. On the other hand, there are many thousands more who are slightly wiser than this, and who realise the tactics Apple are using. If Apple want *my* business and *my* money, they are going to have to give *me* the product *I* want, not what they tell me I should have. If they don't, then I will just have to find some other way to use their product, which means they don't get any of my business or any of my money, but I still have the pleasure of using their product
What I want is a reasonably priced laptop running OSX. Apple fail to provide me with the reasonably priced hardware, so I am also therefore disqualified from running OSX. However, I can easily get around being disqualified from running the OS, which ultimately means Apple gets nothing from me instead of the £70 or so I'd be prepared to pay for their OS.
OH PUUH-LLEEEEASE! Dell computers are practically overated pieces of crap! Apple will beat them second to none!
Macs are PC's. They use the same damn parts. You'd like to think you are getting something special with a mac but it's the same parts found in a million other computers out there.
Macs are PC's. They use the same damn parts. You'd like to think you are getting something special with a mac but it's the same parts found in a million other computers out there.
While true, Apple is using A lot of "standard" PC parts, all the boards, and components are still custom designed and fabricated with top of the line components.
Macs are PC's. They use the same damn parts. You'd like to think you are getting something special with a mac but it's the same parts found in a million other computers out there.
Sure, if you think of a computer as no more than a pile of ICs and a display panel. At least Apple doesn't use RealTek ICs and floor-sweepings for memory chips that I'm aware of, among other things.
Dell doesn't make all bad machines. Some of their lower end "cheap" computers are just that.. cheap, and kind of crappy, but that doesn't speak for everything. Many of their machines are made very well, and are awesome machines. The "Dell sucks!!" mentality many places is just as bad as the "Macs use 1 mouse button, and is only for for graphics design" crap spread around most places too.
I spent six years working as a computer technician and I've repaired thousands of Dell computers, old and new, 'high-end' and introductory. They're crap. The XPS machines are certainly better, but they're still built with parts from the highest bidder, and they still have a depressing failure rate. And Dell's customer support is still inbred. At least the XPS towers are somewhat well designed and easy to take apart, though nothing like a Mac Pro. But they're every bit as huge.
There's a good reason why Dell has a terrible reputation among the people who actually build and repair computers. It isn't just a trend with them.
Macs are PC's. They use the same damn parts. You'd like to think you are getting something special with a mac but it's the same parts found in a million other computers out there.
Only true to an extent when you compare very high-end computers. Certain common items like the processor are universal, of course, but even components like RAM tend to be much cheaper and less reliable in your typical HP, Gateway, Dell. Motherboards are often custom-designed for the Apple computers and special capabilities are implemented well. What really sets the two apart, though, is the degree to which Apples are carefully designed and tested. You rarely see the same sort of reliability in another system. Buy your family members home-made computers and you'll start to see the difference here.