New iMac owners see Radeon HD 4850-related lock-up issue

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  • Reply 41 of 182
    gamafugamafu Posts: 4member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sflocal View Post


    Things get mighty hot under the hood of the iMacs. I know the iMac uses mobile-version of graphics chips since they would have to in order to address the heat issues. Nonetheless, I would think it will still run hotter than a notebook would.



    Your iMac may have been assembled in the U.S., however I will bet money that the components used were predominantly made in China, Malaysia, Taiwan, etc... They have a very good track record of cutting corners behind the scenes only to do damage control when they get caught.



    My Dell XPS 1330M's GPU, Nvidia Geforce 8400M is around 60 Celsius while doing normal tasks, browsing web, listening to music. Therefore, I wouldn't say the Ati 4850 is overheating, but I might be wrong though.



    Yes, I am very well aware of that, I was going to answer to that specific point you mentioned in other post. The only Ati component in iMac is the GPU chip, it's most likely manufactured by TSMC like any other Nvidia/ATI GPUs. All other components are the same as those non-ATI early 2009 iMacs, but the problem only limits to those with Ati GPUs. It's more possible to be a driver/firmware issue than the hardware one. Since no one reports seeing vertical line or distorted graphics yet, it just simply freezes.
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  • Reply 42 of 182
    macrrmacrr Posts: 488member
    Call Dell support.



    Then



    Call Apple support.





    There's a huge difference in the support you get.



    Dell = some dude with a heavy accent who knows nothing other than how to read his troubleshooting script. You waste hours through this BS until you get to LV 3 support who ends up sending someone out the next day to replace 80% of the innards and no explanation as to what the actual problem was.. so it might happen again. And sometimes it does.



    Apples support is so much better it's literally the antithesis to to Dell support. And they have a one on one personal tech service available with the ability to make an appointment online for. For anything.
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  • Reply 43 of 182
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 6,150member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by GamaFu View Post


    My Dell XPS 1330M's GPU, Nvidia Geforce 8400M is around 60 Celsius while doing normal tasks, browsing web, listening to music. Therefore, I wouldn't say the Ati 4850 is overheating, but I might be wrong though.



    Yes, I am very well aware of that, I was going to answer to that specific point you mentioned in other post. The only Ati component in iMac is the GPU chip, it's most likely manufactured by TSMC like any other Nvidia/ATI GPUs. All other components are the same as those non-ATI early 2009 iMacs, but the problem only limits to those with Ati GPUs. It's more possible to be a driver/firmware issue than the hardware one. Since no one reports seeing vertical line or distorted graphics yet, it just simply freezes.



    I really hope it's just a software/firmware issue than an actual hardware/fabrication issue. If were just that though, I would think there would be many more problems with the machines if all the chips were the same.



    There's just a lot of stuff going on under the hood. If anyone would be on top of it though, I'll put my money down on Apple to figure it out.
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  • Reply 44 of 182
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 6,150member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacRR View Post


    Call Dell support.



    Then



    Call Apple support.





    There's a huge difference in the support you get.



    Dell = some dude with a heavy accent who knows nothing other than how to read his troubleshooting script. You waste hours through this BS until you get to LV 3 support who ends up sending someone out the next day to replace 80% of the innards and no explanation as to what the actual problem was.. so it might happen again. And sometimes it does.



    Apples support is so much better it's literally the antithesis to to Dell support. And they have a one on one personal tech service available with the ability to make an appointment online for. For anything.



    My 9-to-5 job is also a SysAdmin and I work all the time on Dell servers and desktops. The support for the servers are semi-respectable. I think Dell gives a higher priority to server customers since it is much more high-profile. However, their desktop support is laughable to say the least. It's why I believe that Dell has really hit skid-row in terms of customer satisfaction.



    Apple support in my experience (when needed of course) has always been excellent. It's a non-tangible component that many critics fail to take into account when reviewing a system.
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  • Reply 45 of 182
    If this is a heat issue, Apple will resolve it in the usual way, with an update that slightly increases the fan speed.
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  • Reply 46 of 182
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sflocal View Post


    I'm holding buying a new iMac until Snow Leopard is out. Maybe new hardware will be available when that happens too.



    I do wonder about the issues that have been plaguing Apple. Are quality issues becoming more apparent now that Apple is selling more machines to formerly Window's only users? Are the suppliers that provide the components having QA issues? Is there a problem with heat-management in the iMac design that is propagating the problem?



    I wonder what the percentage of users this is affecting. If it is less than 1%, I would surmise that they are just very vocal (but no less insignificant). Or is it a sign of bigger problems down the road?



    At the moment, I tend to lean on the supplies (in this case ATI/AMD) perhaps either using more substandard components sliding between Apple's QA radar or the Chinese makers of ATI's components being the usual self and trying to get cheap after-the-fact to raise their bottom line.



    However, what really sets Apple aside compared to the other PC makers is that if there is a problem, they will work on it and do their best to not leave the users out in the cold. That is a reason why Apple has one of the highest consumer satisfaction ratings. That's the mark of a good company. Taking care of their customers when something DOES go wrong.



    I'm not ready to point the finger at Apple just yet... while they design everything, they (like most companies) are at the whim of the suppliers and hope they don't try to slip something in through the cracks.



    its really sad but by the lQQks of things we are going to see more and more of this... the MONSTER is getting too big to control... and APPLE has been using Asian PC production outlets to build their hardware and these are the same guys that build windoze boxes-- and they way they are increasingly making it harder for you (the end user) to notice these things i.e. the new macbook batteries not having the ability to have them replaced with the enduser doing it themselves and Apple hiding all the inside components from us this in not a good thing...

    i am very happy with my MBP (Aug 2007) version and almost made the mistake of selling it to upgrade to the newer model but LQQKs like i won't be doing so....

    WE NEED TO LET APPLE KNOW WE ARE NOT HAPPY CAMPERS!!!!!!....

    STEVE ARE YOU READING THE WRITING ON THE WALL?????

    (oh, i forgot he's not in charge anyMORE....) oh well...
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  • Reply 47 of 182
    mdriftmeyermdriftmeyer Posts: 7,503member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bitzandbitez View Post


    its really sad but by the lQQks of things we are going to see more and more of this... the MONSTER is getting too big to control... and APPLE has been using Asian PC production outlets to build their hardware and these are the same guys that build windoze boxes-- and they way they are increasingly making it harder for you (the end user) to notice these things i.e. the new macbook batteries not having the ability to have them replaced with the enduser doing it themselves and Apple hiding all the inside components from us this in not a good thing...

    i am very happy with my MBP (Aug 2007) version and almost made the mistake of selling it to upgrade to the newer model but LQQKs like i won't be doing so....

    WE NEED TO LET APPLE KNOW WE ARE NOT HAPPY CAMPERS!!!!!!....

    STEVE ARE YOU READING THE WRITING ON THE WALL?????

    (oh, i forgot he's not in charge anyMORE....) oh well...



    Apple never made computers in Cupertino. Try again.
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  • Reply 48 of 182
    gmcalpingmcalpin Posts: 266member
    Hiimamac, please don't quote the entire article when you respond to it. It's... unnecessary.
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  • Reply 49 of 182
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,665member
    It's a problem for every CE manufacturer, as even relatively simple products are assembled from parts made all over the world-- and the sourcing shifts during the product run as everybody claws tooth and nail to get that last nickel subtracted from the bill of goods....



    Indeed, the better part of what it means to be a successful CE business today is being very, very good at sourcing, managing contract manufacturing, inventory control and figuring out how to do quality control at a distance. The virtual factory's a lot trickier to run than the days when the CEO could walk out onto the production floor and look proudly at his widgets rolling off the line.



    Dell rose and fell on just these issues, as they first were able to undercut everybody on manufacturing costs, then got bit by declining quality.



    One thing's for sure-- even a sick and diminished Jobs is going to go ballistic if a parts supplier isn't holding up their end of the bargain. He's cut suppliers off for less.
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  • Reply 50 of 182
    ouraganouragan Posts: 437member
    Quote:

    The freezes occur regardless of what software happens to be running and aren't even connected to whether or not the user is running Mac OS X; some testing the issue note that it happens when running Windows in Boot Camp, where Mac-only drivers wouldn't be a factor. None of the typical troubleshooting steps have an effect on the flaw, including resets for the PRAM or the SMC unit that are often used to diagnose hardware-only problems.





    These are classic symptoms of overheating. It wouldn't surprise me as the iMac is only a "MacBook on a pedestal", using a lower powered, slower, mobile, dual core CPU to reduce heat. The freeze occurs only with the more powerful, optional, Apple approved, graphic card.



    The iMac is not a desktop. Now, you know.





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  • Reply 51 of 182
    ksecksec Posts: 1,569member
    Exactly, overheating.



    Apple needs to seriously consider making some very efficient cooling for their iMac.
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  • Reply 52 of 182
    benroethigbenroethig Posts: 2,782member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hiimamac View Post


    Maybe more thermal paste needed?



    And people want fast CPU and gpu. It's too cramped in rherer as it is. Things running to hot.



    Unfortunately it's what happens when you try to make something more than what it is. The iMac is a good low to middle end consumer machine and there's nothing wrong with that.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post


    As much as I support Apple and am the first one to side with them on most of their strategies (i'm really one of the most vocal Apple supporters), this is getting ridiculous. LCD issues, Nvidia problems, ATI problems of the past and more ATI problems now.



    These issues have to stop. This isn't Dell, HP, or any of the other junkbox makers that run that broken OS, Windows. This is Apple. But for some reason these days, their quality control isn't exactly in line with their lofty mission statement. And this is especially troubling in light of the premium people pay in order to use OS X on supposedly high-quality hardware.



    Unfortunately that's the price to be paid when you build machines this thin. Not much room for error on the thermal envelope. One wrong calculation or a part that doesn't quite conform to specifications and you have problems.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lightstriker View Post


    So why does apple score an 80 in overall customer experiance?



    1) For the most part if they do work, the customer experience is that much better.

    2) Some members of the community takes things way too seriously.

    3) Some under #2 take it so seriously that they attempt to silence any criticism no matter how valid.
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  • Reply 53 of 182
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacRR View Post


    Call Dell support.



    Then



    Call Apple support.





    There's a huge difference in the support you get.



    Dell = some dude with a heavy accent who knows nothing other than how to read his troubleshooting script. You waste hours through this BS until you get to LV 3 support who ends up sending someone out the next day to replace 80% of the innards and no explanation as to what the actual problem was.. so it might happen again. And sometimes it does.



    Apples support is so much better it's literally the antithesis to to Dell support. And they have a one on one personal tech service available with the ability to make an appointment online for. For anything.



    My experience with Dell support has been quite good, If you purchase a computer from their XPS line, their XPS support call centre is actually in Canada ( I'm in Canada ), I'd definitely buy from them again. I bought a Dell XPS M1330 in 2007, got three replacements with no problem. Two of them suffering from the Nvidia GPU failure fiasco last year, it was out of initial warranty, since Dell extends the warranty, I am covered. They even sent a technician to my apartment and replace the motherboard within two days since I needed my laptop to work on projects. It's been excellent in my opinion.
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  • Reply 54 of 182
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,665member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post


    Unfortunately it's what happens when you try to make something more than what it is. The iMac is a good low to middle end consumer machine and there's nothing wrong with that.







    Unfortunately that's the price to be paid when you build machines this thin. Not much room for error on the thermal envelope. One wrong calculation or a part that doesn't quite conform to specifications and you have problems.







    1) For the most part if they do work, the customer experience is that much better.

    2) Some members of the community takes things way too seriously.

    3) Some under #2 take it so seriously that they attempt to silence any criticism no matter how valid.



    While I agree with your observations about cutting the thermal envelope thin (I for one would welcome a slightly larger Mini and iMac if it meant Apple could use desktop parts and not have to play overheating roulette), I'm not sure about that last bit.



    It sounds like you're saying that Apple did well in a customer satisfaction survey because zealots are attempting to silence criticism, which of course makes no sense.



    Perhaps that was just a series of semi-unrelated observations?
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  • Reply 55 of 182
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,662member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sflocal View Post


    Things get mighty hot under the hood of the iMacs. I know the iMac uses mobile-version of graphics chips since they would have to in order to address the heat issues. Nonetheless, I would think it will still run hotter than a notebook would.



    Your iMac may have been assembled in the U.S., however I will bet money that the components used were predominantly made in China, Malaysia, Taiwan, etc... They have a very good track record of cutting corners behind the scenes only to do damage control when they get caught.



    Goods made in China are just as good as those made anywhere. It's up to the manufacturer to watch the QC, as is true here.



    Country of origin has nothing to do with quality. Price determines that.



    When you get a cheap knockoff of something, it will be just that. But when you buy the real thing, it will be that also.
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  • Reply 56 of 182
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,662member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sflocal View Post


    What I believe a lot of suppliers do is on the initial batch, they make sure the quality is right up to spec. And then as time goes on, they try to cut corners without telling the buyers thinking if they cut corners and no one notices, they make more money at the buyer's expense, ultimately hurting consumers.



    So I wait and see how this resolves itself.



    What actually happens is that early batches are the most likely to be flawed, and later batches contain corrections.



    Nvidia did do something stupid though, and they are paying for it.
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  • Reply 57 of 182
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,662member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bitzandbitez View Post


    its really sad but by the lQQks of things we are going to see more and more of this... the MONSTER is getting too big to control... and APPLE has been using Asian PC production outlets to build their hardware and these are the same guys that build windoze boxes-- and they way they are increasingly making it harder for you (the end user) to notice these things i.e. the new macbook batteries not having the ability to have them replaced with the enduser doing it themselves and Apple hiding all the inside components from us this in not a good thing...

    i am very happy with my MBP (Aug 2007) version and almost made the mistake of selling it to upgrade to the newer model but LQQKs like i won't be doing so....

    WE NEED TO LET APPLE KNOW WE ARE NOT HAPPY CAMPERS!!!!!!....

    STEVE ARE YOU READING THE WRITING ON THE WALL?????

    (oh, i forgot he's not in charge anyMORE....) oh well...



    Nonsense!
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  • Reply 58 of 182
    messiahmessiah Posts: 1,689member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sflocal View Post


    I'm holding buying a new iMac until Snow Leopard is out.



    Once they start installing Snow Leopard on the factory builds, it's unlikely that you'll be able to install Leopard retrospectively.



    The first aluminium iMac that I bought, shipped with 10.4, a few weeks later we purchased several more iMacs which shipped with 10.5. That's when we realised that 10.5 broke a lot of our software (CS3), and that it was impossible to install 10.4 on a machine with 10.5 factory installed (even with the original machines 10.4 discs). Suddenly, apparently, the exact same hardware now 'required' 10.5 to function!



    So I would recommend purchasing a 10.5 iMac 'just' after 10.6 is announced ? that way you qualify for the free 10.6 upgrade and you have the peace of mind that you can continue to run 10.5 until all the major kinks are ironed out of 10.6.
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  • Reply 59 of 182
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 6,150member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Messiah View Post


    So I would recommend purchasing a 10.5 iMac 'just' after 10.6 is announced ? that way you qualify for the free 10.6 upgrade and you have the peace of mind that you can continue to run 10.5 until all the major kinks are ironed out of 10.6.



    Good point. One that I may seriously consider!
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  • Reply 60 of 182
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 6,150member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Goods made in China are just as good as those made anywhere. It's up to the manufacturer to watch the QC, as is true here.



    Country of origin has nothing to do with quality. Price determines that.



    When you get a cheap knockoff of something, it will be just that. But when you buy the real thing, it will be that also.



    At the minimum, we can agree to disagree. Chinese made goods (not just computer components) IMHO are just downright inferior compared to more developed nations. It's the byproduct of getting something that barely does the job at the lowest possible cost.



    I can't even begin to count the number of times I've bought a Chinese-made product only to have it fail, fade, whatever in a few months. With the hassle of replacement, my labor, my time, headaches, I could have spent 50% more on a real quality product and be done with it and never have to address it again. Of course, there are times when one cannot purchase something without having it made in China. I actually do go out of my way to validate the origin of a said product and decide accordingly whether they get my business. I pay extra knowing I'm getting a better quality product and more durability.



    I am not badgering the Chinese workforce per-se. I just do not trust anything that comes out of that part of the world. Don't get me wrong though. In Apple's case, I think they are far more meticulous and careful about the quality of product that comes out of China. But even they cannot supervise on a daily basis every single component that gets manufactured. There has to be a level of trust and I think the suppliers play a game with that.
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