TomTom iPhone app; iPhone magnetometer; Boot Camp in 10.6

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  • Reply 61 of 126
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,508member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    I believe I recall Apple's March 17th, 2009 special event for iPhone 3.0 that specifically stated that developers can offer turn-by-tun GPS apps, but can't use Google Maps to do it since Google does not license their map software for such use.



    Why they didn't state this from the release of the SDK, I don't know. What is nice about the future apps is that you won't have to purchase the apps independently. G-Maps is pretty nice, but if you are driving one side of the US to the other you'll have to switch apps. That is a big of a pain. It would be nice if you could by the app, say for $5, and then buy the maps you wish to have within the app. Being able to buy a particular metropolis within the app for a reduced rate would be pretty cool, too. Or for another country but still using the same app. I just hope Apple updates iTunes to allow me to un/select these in-app purchases at will the way you can choose normal apps to load on your iPhone.



    XRoad is using map data from Navteq. Impressive clientelle list for a company I'm just now hearing about.



    I don't care how they do it. I just want them to do it.



    It's likely much cheaper for the company to license a large number of maps than to break them out, one by one. It would likely cost us less in the long run as well. I don't know why they don't include all the maps now.



    As I don't drive, I really don't know how the other GPS companies do this, but there must be a standard method of delivering the proper maps.
  • Reply 62 of 126
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    I don't understand the entire situation. there is nothing preventing any company from having maps from other sources. After all, the GPS companies don't rely on Google's maps. This company could be leasing, or buying their maps from the source the other companies get theirs from.



    Writing the program isn't anything that Apple should object to either.



    I believe I recall Apple's March 17th, 2009 special event for iPhone 3.0 that specifically stated that developers can offer turn-by-tun GPS apps, but can't use Google Maps to do it since Google does not license their map software for such use.



    Why they didn't state this from the release of the SDK, I don't know. What is nice about the future apps is that you won't have to purchase the apps independently. G-Maps is pretty nice, but if you are driving one side of the US to the other you'll have to switch apps. That is a big of a pain. It would be nice if you could by the app, say for $5, and then buy the maps you wish to have within the app. Being able to buy a particular metropolis within the app for a reduced rate would be pretty cool, too. Or for another country but still using the same app. I just hope Apple updates iTunes to allow me to un/select these in-app purchases at will the way you can choose normal apps to load on your iPhone.



    XRoad is using map data from Navteq. Impressive clientelle list for a company I'm just now hearing about.
  • Reply 63 of 126
    ivan.rnn01ivan.rnn01 Posts: 1,822member
    I think I see more clearly what problems with turn-to-turn GPS are. They are complex mixture of both business model problems and technical ones.
    1. Digital maps are valued (and expensively valued) property. Apple wants 30% of each purchase. Map providers don't know exactly how to manage this.

    2. The actual GPS makers' business model is as follows: the user buys separate application first, then buys maps or map updates, which are not of application kind. This is not how iTunes App Store works.

    3. Google maps are streamable over http. Third party maps generally aren't. And it's huge work (it seems even unfeasible) to create streamable versions of appropriate quality. Then you have to stream them for free; being well aware, that in the end there will be a smart guy with sniffer to help himself to your maps.

    4. Apple's APIs are tied to Google maps, which are not allowed for route guidance. So, no way for GPS maker to access GPS chip output via Apple's API. GPS maker is thus obliged to write proprietary low level APIs for iPhone platform. GPS makers do not simply and plainly have the qualified workforce to achieve this. Then there is a risk Apple will not allow this application to show in the store as unsafe third-party development. This is because TomTom may be in need for qualified developers. OK, all that was so until iPhone OS 3.0, which isn't yet out:

      Quote:

      Maps inside other applications. New applications will be able to use Maps directly, which is now an API.

      Turn-by-turn directions. Developers will also be able to create turn-by-turn applications using the GPS information from the iPhone and combining it with their own maps, without depending on 3G connectivity or Google.




    Tough task. Tough indeed.
  • Reply 64 of 126
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    So which company offers this?



    Nokia maps offers trials then you pay for turn by turn, some phone companies offer subscriptions to turn by turn, Symbian and WinMo require the purchase of turn by turn licences such as Garmin or Tom Tom (or pirated versions.)



    Who pays for the map licences across all the countries the iPhone is sold in?



    How often will the maps be updated, when you buy a dedicated GPS unit you still have to pay for updated maps each year.



    Even street directories have to be repurchased now and then to keep up to date.



    So why should Apple, or more correctly iPhone purchasers, as it's an extra cost to be factored in, pay for turn by turn software especially as not all phone users will want it.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post


    Apple really needs to include turn-by-turn GPS navigation software STANDARD with the new iPhone hardware coming out this year.



    This should not be an extra purchase...



  • Reply 65 of 126
    http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/09/t...ready-to-roll/



    and maybe this one...



    http://www.macnn.com/articles/08/06/...hone.software/



    its the same story from everywhere you go... and its always the same responses from the boards. At least insider makes it easy to read lol



    note this all was when 3g iphone first came out so tom tom has understood this game for a longer time then most of you think.

    as for the magnetometer its just another thing i can use for to geocache and give us snow leopard already sheesh.



    Also about the mini display ports... monoprice has the minidp to hdmi adapter located here...



    http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2



    which is really the only good adapter you will need
  • Reply 66 of 126
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,508member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post


    I think I see more clearly what problems with turn-to-turn GPS are. They are complex mixture of both business model problems and technical ones.
    1. Digital maps are valued (and expensively valued) property. Apple wants 30% of each purchase. Map providers don't know exactly how to manage this.

    2. The actual GPS makers' business model is as follows: the user buys separate application first, then buys maps or map updates, which are not of application kind. This is not how iTunes App Store works.

    3. Google maps are streamable over http. Third party maps generally aren't. And it's huge work (it seems even unfeasible) to create streamable versions of appropriate quality. Then you have to stream them for free; being well aware, that in the end there will be a smart guy with sniffer to help himself to your maps.

    4. Apple's APIs are tied to Google maps, which are not allowed for route guidance. So, no way for GPS maker to access GPS chip output via Apple's API. GPS maker is thus obliged to write proprietary low level APIs for iPhone platform. GPS makers do not simply and plainly have the qualified workforce to achieve this. Then there is a risk Apple will not allow this application to show in the store as unsafe third-party development. This is because TomTom may be in need for qualified developers. OK, all that was so until iPhone OS 3.0, which isn't yet out:


    Tough task. Tough indeed.



    As I pointed out, and several of us have been discussing, there is a company that has a turn by turn program with maps out, already.
  • Reply 67 of 126
    ivan.rnn01ivan.rnn01 Posts: 1,822member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    As I pointed out, and several of us have been discussing, there is a company that has a turn by turn program with maps out, already.



    Well done. The only thing that company has is 1 application for eastern States and 1 application for western States. Unlike, TomTom makes mature GPS solutions for Europe too.
  • Reply 68 of 126
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,508member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post


    Well done. The only thing that company has is 1 application for eastern States and 1 application for western States. Unlike, TomTom makes mature GPS solutions for Europe too.



    Tom Tom is a big company, and has been around for quite a while, so I would expect it has more coverage, as it has had years to get it.



    The fact that this company has a program out, is something of note I think. Since we won't be getting 3.0 until sometime in June, supposedly, this is significant.



    It could mean that our thinking on this is wrong. My feeling, along with others is that Apple is stating that Googles maps can't be used, and that's it. If so, there's nothing to prevent anyone else from making the move.



    Why they haven't, is something we can only speculate on. Perhaps Apple has conferred with the major companies about this, and they decided to wait for these new API's that would make things easier for them as they would take some of the programming off their shoulders.



    But, I've seen speculation in some articles that says that Tom Tom and others have had programs at least somewhat ready for a while.



    Since this program seems to work (I've discarded most of the one star ratings as they seem very suspicious, many coming one right after the other with just a short sentence of dislike), there is no reason why others wouldn't s well.



    This program is too big to have slipped through Apple's people. As it's in ver. 1.3, Apple has obviously allowed this to be sold. It also has close to 200 reviews, showing that it is selling.



    It does lack voice instructions though, from what I've read.
  • Reply 69 of 126
    ivan.rnn01ivan.rnn01 Posts: 1,822member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Tom Tom is a big company, and has been around for quite a while, so I would expect it has more coverage, as it has had years to get it.



    My points above say exactly, this is not enough to be in GPS business. Before iPhone 3.0 you've had to be deeply in iPhone OS to produce an application.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    The fact that this company has a program out, is something of note I think. Since we won't be getting 3.0 until sometime in June, supposedly, this is significant.



    Yes, yes. Me too, I rather appreciate their first application. Having had all those difficulties, they had to confront, it was remarkable, what they've done.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    It could mean that our thinking on this is wrong. My feeling, along with others is that Apple is stating that Googles maps can't be used, and that's it. If so, there's nothing to prevent anyone else from making the move.



    Theoretically, Apple never did. Yet, the amount of work required to get it done before 3.0 and all those business model incoherences worked well like the formal ban.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Why they haven't, is something we can only speculate on. Perhaps Apple has conferred with the major companies about this, and they decided to wait for these new API's that would make things easier for them as they would take some of the programming off their shoulders.



    It's very much like that, I guess.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    But, I've seen speculation in some articles that says that Tom Tom and others have had programs at least somewhat ready for a while.



    Says TomTom:

    Quote:

    “We have made our navigation system run on the iPhone; it looks good and works very well. We will have to look more closely to Apple’s strategy before we can say more about what kind of opportunities this will bring us.”



    OK, I believe they got it compiled with one single map. So they proved their s/w worked on iPhone in principle. Then come all those problems I listed above.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Since this program seems to work (I've discarded most of the one star ratings as they seem very suspicious, many coming one right after the other with just a short sentence of dislike), there is no reason why others wouldn't s well.



    This program is too big to have slipped through Apple's people. As it's in ver. 1.3, Apple has obviously allowed this to be sold. It also has close to 200 reviews, showing that it is selling.



    It does lack voice instructions though, from what I've read.



    If this program hadn't worked, it wouldn't have appeared in App Store. In french store it has no reviews at all, this is only natural. The others have decades of work and tons of software behind and consider the option to reuse all that first.
  • Reply 70 of 126
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,508member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post


    If this program hadn't worked, it wouldn't have appeared in App Store. In french store it has no reviews at all, this is only natural. The others have decades of work and tons of software behind and consider the option to reuse all that first.



    I'm excited by the whole prospect.



    While it's true that some other phones have had this already, Apple is moving bit by bit to fill in the gaps. Overall, the iPhone provides a much better experience.
  • Reply 71 of 126
    ivan.rnn01ivan.rnn01 Posts: 1,822member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    I'm excited by the whole prospect.



    While it's true that some other phones have had this already, Apple is moving bit by bit to fill in the gaps. Overall, the iPhone provides a much better experience.



    It's Apple who used to provide much better experience, revolutionary approaches and innovations everywhere. This is why I'm waiting patiently for Apple's turn-by-turn application. Probably, in vain, they don't seem interested; no proprietary maps, no expertise, no desire to mess themselves up in all that...
  • Reply 72 of 126
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post


    OK, I believe they got it compiled with one single map. So they proved their s/w worked on iPhone in principle. Then come all those problems I listed above.



    GPS companies have a problem on their hands. They will have to compete with other GPS solutions on the iPhone or risk losing revenue, but to do so means they are also competing with their dashboard appliances. This will be tricky as they, like Apple, are making money from the whole widget.



    I know TomTom stated they have it working, so why the delay when the door was publicly swung on turn-by-turn GPS apps in the App Store? I speculate that TomTom probably saw the in-app purchase option as a more ideal solution. They have Windows and Mac OS X apps for buying new maps and voices for the device. I would not be surprised if TomTom comes out with their own app this summer after 3.0 officially launches.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post


    It's Apple who used to provide much better experience, revolutionary approaches and innovations everywhere. This is why I'm waiting patiently for Apple's turn-by-turn application. Probably, in vain, they don't seem interested, no proprietary maps, no desire to mess themselves up in all that...



    Apple is providing the framework for a better experience. They don't have to crush other turn-by-turn GPS apps in the process. Frankly, I like their approach a lot. If I'm cheap and/or I have a very limited usage I can just use Maps on the iPhone without the turn-by-turn. It can harness the power of Google Search to find things that other GPS devices can't locate.



    Unlike Verizon's $10/month GPS app, the App Store solution will be a flat fee, it will create competition in the GPS which will help push for more advancements in better apps and more accurate maps. My theory on this is that since they will no longer be inconvenient to update systems that tie you to one app to one device, like with the TomToms and Garmins, that the best GPS mapping solutions will be for the iPhone. Case in point, the 3D representation of the street signs and approaching interchange is a pretty slick feature.
  • Reply 73 of 126
    ivan.rnn01ivan.rnn01 Posts: 1,822member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    GPS companies have a problem on their hands. They will have to compete with other GPS solutions on the iPhone or risk losing revenue, but to do so means they are also competing with their dashboard appliances. This will be tricky as they, like Apple, are making money from the whole widget.



    True; it brings, however, more pain, than revenue, App Store in the case of GPS. I don't think, TomTom are ready to sell their applications and maps - especially maps - at $19.95.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    I know TomTom stated they have it working, so why the delay when the door was publicly swung on turn-by-turn GPS apps in the App Store? I speculate that TomTom probably saw the in-app purchase option as a more ideal solution.



    This as well.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    They have Windows and Mac OS X apps for buying new maps and voices for the device. I would not be surprised if TomTom comes out with their own app this summer after 3.0 officially launches.



    The problem is, downloaded content should be imported in iTunes to appear on iPhone. And iTunes doesn't work that way at all. And yes, in-app purchase option, it's 3.0, not earlier...



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Apple is providing the framework for a better experience. They don't have to crush other turn-by-turn GPS apps in the process.



    They crushed smartphone market, concept, whatever else so perfectly and mercilessly, that I don't believe much, they are so timid about disturbing complainers. They have Maps, nevertheless. For a pedestrian it competes very successfully with everything else, including TomTom, having, as you mentioned, the whole power of Google behind. And no one should tease Google



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Unlike Verizon's $10/month GPS app, the App Store solution will be a flat fee, it will create competition in the GPS which will help push for more advancements in better apps and more accurate maps. My theory on this is that since they will no longer be inconvenient to update systems that tie you to one app to one device, like with the TomToms and Garmins, that the best GPS mapping solutions will be for the iPhone. Case in point, the 3D representation of the street signs and approaching interchange is a pretty slick feature.



    I believe Apple would be capable of showing even better user experience than we all can imagine, if only they decide to invest in.
  • Reply 74 of 126
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,508member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post


    It's Apple who used to provide much better experience, revolutionary approaches and innovations everywhere. This is why I'm waiting patiently for Apple's turn-by-turn application. Probably, in vain, they don't seem interested; no proprietary maps, no expertise, no desire to mess themselves up in all that...



    People complain when Apple does something like this because they claim that Apple is taking someone's idea and trampling over it.



    When Apple leaves it to third party developers, people complain that Apple should include it so that they shouldn't have to pay for it.



    Which should it be?



    I don't think a turn by turn app is of interest to most people. It's like adding FM to the iPod or iPhone. So few people really care for it that charging everyone for it isn't what Apple considers to be viable, and I agree with that.



    This would cost Apple, so they would have to charge us for it. How many here really want Apple to add to the price for a major app they won't be using, just because 10% or so of the buyers will be happy about it?



    I suspect not many.



    People just have to understand that if they want something, they will have to pay for it.



    If this saves them from buying a separate GPS unit for their car for $150 and up, by buying a $25 to $35 program, and a $20 charger for the car, then it's well worth it.
  • Reply 75 of 126
    ivan.rnn01ivan.rnn01 Posts: 1,822member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    People complain when Apple does something like this because they claim that Apple is taking someone's idea and trampling over it.



    When Apple leaves it to third party developers, people complain that Apple should include it so that they shouldn't have to pay for it.



    Which should it be?







    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    I don't think a turn by turn app is of interest to most people. It's like adding FM to the iPod or iPhone. So few people really care for it that charging everyone for it isn't what Apple considers to be viable, and I agree with that.



    This would cost Apple, so they would have to charge us for it. How many here really want Apple to add to the price for a major app they won't be using, just because 10% or so of the buyers will be happy about it?



    I suspect not many.



    People just have to understand that if they want something, they will have to pay for it.



    If this saves them from buying a separate GPS unit for their car for $150 and up, by buying a $25 to $35 program, and a $20 charger for the car, then it's well worth it.



    Me personally, I believe a huge crowd of iPhone owners will buy Apple's turn-by-turn with no any complaints. It may be a kinda illusory perception, though, because I definitely will.
  • Reply 76 of 126
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    If this saves them from buying a separate GPS unit for their car for $150 and up, by buying a $25 to $35 program, and a $20 charger for the car, then it's well worth it.



    That brings up an interesting option for TomTom, maybe they have decided on not just offering a solution for the iPhone/Touch, but now that SDK v3 and iPhone OS X v3 will allow developers to access the 30-pin connector, they will be offering a HW solution too so you can mount your iDevice on the dash with all the accessories that come from a typical GPS device, perhaps even an extra speaker so that the voice commands can be heard and/or some physical buttons on the holder for convenience when docked.
  • Reply 77 of 126
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


    Meanwhile, the rumor site on Friday said its turned up evidence that a new version of Apple's Boot Camp utility being tested as part of Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard includes Windows HFS+ drivers, which let Windows installations read Mac OS X HFS+ formatted partitions.



    Now if they can just get rid of DStore and .dot hidden files from showing up on Windows that would be great



    m
  • Reply 78 of 126
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,508member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post








    Me personally, I believe a huge crowd of iPhone owners will buy Apple's turn-by-turn with no any complaints. It may be a kinda illusory perception, though, because I definitely will.



    Do you want to try putting up again whatever it was that didn't come up the first time?



    Given that there are now quite a few of these people having the devices (iTouch included), I wouldn't be surprised if a large number of people bought one. I'm tempted to buy the current one even though I don't drive, but lack of voice commands has stopped me so far.



    But if the percentage is still small, it wouldn't be a good idea for Apple to include it unless they got it for almost nothing. Don't forget that if even a million people bought the program, that would still be a small percentage.



    If they developed their own program and included that, but required the purchase of maps, maybe, but then they'd be stepping on those third party developers again.
  • Reply 79 of 126
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,508member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    That brings up an interesting option for TomTom, maybe they have decided on not just offering a solution for the iPhone/Touch, but now that SDK v3 and iPhone OS X v3 will allow developers to access the 30-pin connector, they will be offering a HW solution too so you can mount your iDevice on the dash with all the accessories that come from a typical GPS device, perhaps even an extra speaker so that the voice commands can be heard and/or some physical buttons on the holder for convenience when docked.



    That would be interesting, but what would all that cost?



    Which devices would this be competing against? I see GPS units from below $150 to over $1,200 car receivers with 9" dia screens.
  • Reply 80 of 126
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mstone View Post


    Now if they can just get rid of DStore and .dot hidden files from showing up on Windows that would be great.



    The option to prevent DS-Store files from appearing over network shares has been there since at least Tiger, and I think it's on by default in Leopard. However, I don't think this works on a local partition like BootCamp. Regardless, it's an antiquated feature that still shows up when reading OS X drives from other OSes and it has never seem to work correctly anyway.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Do you want to try putting up again whatever it was that didn't come up the first time?



    image: http://lh3.ggpht.com/_X3Bf5gCgnb8/Sg.../RealGps.2.jpg
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