High-definition video upscaling (480i or 480p to 720p/1080i)
Deinterlacing (480i to 480p) through HDMI output
It's all through the HDMI output or at least through the component outputs. So, yes, your LDs will look better since they will be at least deinterlaced, or upscaled if you select that option, although obviously not as good as a true 1080 disc with 3:2 pulldown to 24fps.
Hey, thanks Kolchak and SDW. I ended up doing what I should have done in the first place, downloading the manual. It does look like the potential is there, how well it works in the real world is something I'll eventially find out later.
BTW, I'm not a great fan of Denon. Also, I'm not sure how important HDMI 1.3 is going to be. I guess we have to get used to the fact that we can't future proof electronic toys, there's always going to be something new down the road in a year or two.
Don't be so harsh on murch. He's mentioned more than once before that he likes to argue, so maybe he's just playing devil's advocate to raise some people's hackles.
The next is to attack Blu-Ray on technical grounds, even though he just got done saying that the capabilities are essentially the same. Even if he can prove a slight HD-DVD advantage in this area (and I don't think he can), it doesn't matter. Consumers aren't responding to any perceived differences.
But they should.
Blu-Ray is evidence that Sony has learned nothing from the Betamax, Memory Stick or MiniDisc fiascos.
They still think it's all about them, and their obsessive need for near-total control of the media format.
Sony is a company that deep down, harbours a deep distrust of its own customers.
For that reason alone, Blu-Ray should fail.
The DRM-laden Blu-Ray disc will not deter counterfeiters, but will only serve to restrict legitimate owners. The audio world is actually now headed towards openness with EMI leading the way, and Sony and much of Hollywood are determined to resist this trend at all costs.
The only good thing about this situation is that customers won't really lose. If Blu-Ray does win without jettisoning its restrictive DRM, it sets the stage for Apple to swoop in and dominate the film distribution game with the next iteration of AppleTV.
Well.... LG and Samsung seems to be setting a good example of how newer generation players should be. The pricing may be little off the top, but all the Blu-Ray players are all up there anyway. However, these newer models support both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray and this may be a good solution for some AV enthusiasts. If and when these combo players are available at $199 or less, then the hybrid(HD/SD) discs format may be the more popular format.
Anyway, I think there will be even more combo players being announce with expected revisions of soon to be obsolete standalone Blu-Ray players.
The format war is just beginning to warm up. We still have not seen the real blood shed, yet.
Well.... LG and Samsung seems to be setting a good example of how newer generation players should be. The pricing may be little off the top, but all the Blu-Ray players are all up there anyway. However, these newer models support both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray and this may be a good solution for some AV enthusiasts. If and when these combo players are available at $199 or less, then the hybrid(HD/SD) discs format may be the more popular format.
Anyway, I think there will be even more combo players being announce with expected revisions of soon to be obsolete standalone Blu-Ray players.
"All the Blu-ray players are all up there anyway"? Are you trying to surpass Murch for outright silliness? Let's have a look at Amazon, shall we?
Samsung BD-P1200 - $500
Sony BDP-S300 - $500
Sony BDP-S1 - $700
Philips BDP-9000 - $750
Do any of these even approach the $1200 cost of the combo player? Meanwhile, in your beloved HD DVD camp, Toshiba's own HD-XA2 still runs $590, so it's hardly the all-bargains format you try to make it out to be. Combo players will never hit $199. HD DVD will die long before it comes to that, taking the "soon to be obsolete" HD DVD players with them.
"All the Blu-ray players are all up there anyway"? Are you trying to surpass Murch for outright silliness? Let's have a look at Amazon, shall we?
Samsung BD-P1200 - $500
Sony BDP-S300 - $500
Sony BDP-S1 - $700
Philips BDP-9000 - $750
Do any of these even approach the $1200 cost of the combo player? Meanwhile, in your beloved HD DVD camp, Toshiba's own HD-XA2 still runs $590, so it's hardly the all-bargains format you try to make it out to be. Combo players will never hit $199. HD DVD will die long before it comes to that, taking the "soon to be obsolete" HD DVD players with them.
I would expect the new combo player to hit around $700 - 850 street price when available around Oct/Nov. 2007.
below is the price range of toshiba HD-DVD players available at amazon:
HD-A2 ($199-$299)
HD-XA2 ($520-$599)
BTW, if you must know, I paid $599 for my XA2 few months back, but I got $80 refund (price protection) and $150 Sony Credit via Sony Credit card.
Therefore, the grand total I paid for my XA2 = $599 - $80 - $150 = $369
Anyway, Blu-Ray has long way to go before any of the standalone players will reach below $300 even for those soon to be obsolete players.
All in all, the main purpose for my prior post was to let you guys know Blu-Ray profile 1.1 and 2.0 compliant players are on it way....... whether you guys think it's important or not. For those who recently became a standalone player owners.... maybe you're not too late to return the unit and wait little longer.
Blu-Ray is evidence that Sony has learned nothing from the Betamax, Memory Stick or MiniDisc fiascos.
They still think it's all about them, and their obsessive need for near-total control of the media format.
Sony is a company that deep down, harbours a deep distrust of its own customers.
For that reason alone, Blu-Ray should fail.
The DRM-laden Blu-Ray disc will not deter counterfeiters, but will only serve to restrict legitimate owners. The audio world is actually now headed towards openness with EMI leading the way, and Sony and much of Hollywood are determined to resist this trend at all costs.
The only good thing about this situation is that customers won't really lose. If Blu-Ray does win without jettisoning its restrictive DRM, it sets the stage for Apple to swoop in and dominate the film distribution game with the next iteration of AppleTV.
But they're not. And don't quote me that crap about Sony distrusting their own customers. The entire movie industry distrusts its customers.
The fact is that Blu-Ray and Betamax aren't the same. Betamax had some real disadvantages.
Wiki:
Quote:
The main issue with the Beta format in the early days of the USA market was recording time.
Quote:
Recording time was everything, with Beta eventually managing 5 hours at BIII (13.3 mm/sec) on an ultra-thin L-830 cassette, and VHS achieving 6 hours with Extended Play on the standard T-120 cassette (and up to 9 hours on an ultra-thin T-180 cassette, later even longer with the T-200 cassette). Slower tape speeds meant a degradation in picture quality, but the consumer didn't seem to mind. Sony was never able to overcome the disadvantage of the 1 hour recording limit when Beta was introduced.
Moreover, VHS was embraced by the Adult film market, which helped as well. The comparison is just not valid. Also, note the manufacturer advantage VHS had...40 to 12 at the peak of the war.
Considering the PS3 does or will be able to do (after a software update) everything on Blu-ray the XA2 can do for HD DVD -- and includes a very capable gaming console and even a powerful Folding@home client -- tell me again why the XA2 is such a great value. And no, the A2 doesn't count. It's a stripped down model.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac
below is the price range of toshiba HD-DVD players available at amazon:
HD-A2 ($199-$299)
HD-XA2 ($520-$599)
There you go again, cherry-picking figures to support your argument. I use the actual prices Amazon itself charges for new Blu-ray units and you decide to use their third-party seller prices, which change on a whim. Where is your mythical $199 price for a new A2? The lowest I see is about $250. Amazon itself charges $273 and it doesn't top out at $299. There are quite a few units selling for up to $500, not that many people are dumb enough to pay that.
Besides, who gives a damn what the Toshibas are selling for? That wasn't the point. You seem to miss the point so often around here, it's not funny. Codger asks if the A/V receiver he's considering buying will make his laserdiscs look better and you avoid the question entirely, instead going off about whether it should be done in the receiver or in the TV. And this now. Again, who gives a damn? You were talking about how expensive "all" the Blu-ray players were ("over the top" pricing). I pointed out they're not. Even if the Samsung will be $850 (I seriously doubt it will be below $1000), that doesn't match the $500 players, so you were talking garbage when you said all the Blu-ray players are that expensive. The price of HD DVD players is completely irrelevant there. Even if they were $1.99, you were spreading untruths about the Blu-ray players.
I'm perfectly willing to eat crow about LGF and Disney.
I had no idea 9 months ago that the Blu-ray dogma was so strong. I'm not the only one becoming keen on this dogma as the Euro Commission is investigating. It doesn't make sense that there are 170k standalone HD DVD players purchased purposely to play movies.
It doesn't make sense there there are 150k Xbox HD DVD add ons purchased expressly to play movies.
Yet 4 studios cling (collude) to a format that cost more to manufacture. If it's the DRM just tell people "it's the damn DRM" but stop lying to us.
Content is the "only" thing keeping Blu-ray afloat.
I'm perfectly willing to eat crow about LGF and Disney.
I had no idea 9 months ago that the Blu-ray dogma was so strong. I'm not the only one becoming keen on this dogma as the Euro Commission is investigating. It doesn't make sense that there are 170k standalone HD DVD players purchased purposely to play movies.
It doesn't make sense there there are 150k Xbox HD DVD add ons purchased expressly to play movies.
Yet 4 studios cling (collude) to a format that cost more to manufacture. If it's the DRM just tell people "it's the damn DRM" but stop lying to us.
Content is the "only" thing keeping Blu-ray afloat.
one: The EU are a bunch of whiners. Whining about how Switzerland is being bad by allowing tax competition among provinces (OMFG...competition? Oh the horror!). Whining about Apple's Fairplay. Whining about the UK about something I forget now.
Pretty much whining about how everyone successful is doing something unfair because otherwise, how could they be successful? Paint me euro-skeptic. In a big F-ing way. Great concept. Poor execution. I blame the French.
two: Collude to do what? Pick a format they feel is superior? What evidence of collusion is there? None. And its not like studios have been shy about saying they feel that BD has better protection so yeah, they've been saying its the DRM a while now. Region coding is one thing the studios can point to and tell the EU to bugger off.
three: that there aren't that many HD-DVD players out there makes plenty of sense. We're still in the early adoptor phase. No collusion is required to see limited offerings in both HW and SW.
Geez, you're really grasping at straws. Blu-ray dogma? How about rampant HD-DVD paranoia and idiocy?
This was the week of the big Universal blitz. 17 new releases vs. 2 new Blu-ray releases for the week. They managed to pick up a few points against the previous week, but nothing Earth-shattering. Meanwhile, Blu-ray inches another percentage point upward in the "since inception" figure.
Considering the PS3 does or will be able to do (after a software update) everything on Blu-ray the XA2 can do for HD DVD -- and includes a very capable gaming console and even a powerful Folding@home client -- tell me again why the XA2 is such a great value. And no, the A2 doesn't count. It's a stripped down model.
There you go again, cherry-picking figures to support your argument. I use the actual prices Amazon itself charges for new Blu-ray units and you decide to use their third-party seller prices, which change on a whim. Where is your mythical $199 price for a new A2? The lowest I see is about $250. Amazon itself charges $273 and it doesn't top out at $299. There are quite a few units selling for up to $500, not that many people are dumb enough to pay that.
Besides, who gives a damn what the Toshibas are selling for? That wasn't the point. You seem to miss the point so often around here, it's not funny. Codger asks if the A/V receiver he's considering buying will make his laserdiscs look better and you avoid the question entirely, instead going off about whether it should be done in the receiver or in the TV. And this now. Again, who gives a damn? You were talking about how expensive "all" the Blu-ray players were ("over the top" pricing). I pointed out they're not. Even if the Samsung will be $850 (I seriously doubt it will be below $1000), that doesn't match the $500 players, so you were talking garbage when you said all the Blu-ray players are that expensive. The price of HD DVD players is completely irrelevant there. Even if they were $1.99, you were spreading untruths about the Blu-ray players.
Ah.... you're looking for someone new to fight with?...
At least you are predictable as your behavior would show the supports you've provided other than trying to pick a fight.
Wait a minute...... you're always trying to pick a fight and that's all you do here..... as obvious as a trademark of your own, if you can look back through your posting history, you'll realize it if you're not already aware of your behavior.
Anyway, if you understood about video processing as how analog S-video signal gets processed via two options?
1)\tS-video (480i analog) to HDTV (processed to 720/1080p native panel resolution)
2)\tS-video (480i analog) to AVR (processed to 720/1080p in digital) then passed to HDTV via HDMI and processed once again via HDTV prior to displaying to either 768p or to over-scanning process on the panel.
Every little process steps will affect the video output even when you ignore the differences of video processors involved.
I?ll just stop here since I?m probably talking to a wall on this matter, and I have no urge to educate just for you in particular.
BTW, $100 off $599 PS3 will not save it..... It's still too expensive...... even for you, right?
Typical. You're the fool who's always angling for a fight. Ask SDW2001 if I argue with him. Or Walter Slocombe. Or OldCodger. Nope, and you wouldn't understand why. It's because they don't write total garbage like you and Murch. Even with your pseudo-pedantic "well, you can go through an A/V receiver or not" non-response, you still didn't answer Codger's questions of what output it actually used and whether it would help his LDs look better. Way to dodge his questions.
As for your uneducated guess that the BDP-UP5000 is going to cost $700-850, there are already reports that it will be over $500 more than the current price of a standalone Blu-ray player. Meanwhile, most people fully expect Blu-ray players to fall in price yet again by Black Friday, which will make a $1000+ combo player very unattractive.
Hey, thanks Kolchak and SDW. I ended up doing what I should have done in the first place, downloading the manual. It does look like the potential is there, how well it works in the real world is something I'll eventially find out later.
BTW, I'm not a great fan of Denon. Also, I'm not sure how important HDMI 1.3 is going to be. I guess we have to get used to the fact that we can't future proof electronic toys, there's always going to be something new down the road in a year or two.
I recall doing some reading on the Denon with respect to video performance compared to the Yamaha and others. I believe it came out significantly ahead.
Right now you really need to spend a minimum of $1500-2000 to get good video upscaling performance. At least that was the case 6 months ago when I was researching it.
I hear you about HDMI 1.3. I would suspect Denon will add that for this year. I think it may depend on your setup as to whether you notice or not. With my Panasonic Plasma (consumer level) I don't think I'd see a difference...nor hear a difference since I don't even have surround sound at the moment!
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison
I'm perfectly willing to eat crow about LGF and Disney.
I had no idea 9 months ago that the Blu-ray dogma was so strong. I'm not the only one becoming keen on this dogma as the Euro Commission is investigating. It doesn't make sense that there are 170k standalone HD DVD players purchased purposely to play movies.
It doesn't make sense there there are 150k Xbox HD DVD add ons purchased expressly to play movies.
Yet 4 studios cling (collude) to a format that cost more to manufacture. If it's the DRM just tell people "it's the damn DRM" but stop lying to us.
Content is the "only" thing keeping Blu-ray afloat.
Huh? Content is ALWAYS what dominates the format wars. And you're wrong anyway...Blu-Ray has momentum on its side, and the PS3...which is no small advantage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison
What stellar performance from Blu-ray
1. Since Inception they are only %10 away from 50/50 despite having a 4 studio advantage. Pathetic
Best apologist denial....EVAR!
Quote:
2. Their 1st generation hardware save for the PS3 is obsolete and won't support the 1.1 profile
Whatever. Another prediction as to the impact it will have.
Quote:
3. Players are still 2x the minimum price compared to HD DVD
No garbage there at all....Blu-ray still looks like shat.
---I think you're just trolling now. In fact, I'm certain. Man..it's going to be a tough year ahead for you. That's [i]my[i] prediction. I insist that when HD-DVD is taken off the market, you post a thread entitled "My Name is hmurchison: I am Defeated."
This is longest, most pointless debate...EVAR! The consumer don't like either of 'em so far, but Blu-Ray has more interest in a very narrow segment of this kind of media.
Ah.... you're looking for someone new to fight with?...
At least you are predictable as your behavior would show the supports you've provided other than trying to pick a fight.
Wait a minute...... you're always trying to pick a fight and that's all you do here..... as obvious as a trademark of your own, if you can look back through your posting history, you'll realize it if you're not already aware of your behavior.
So I took the advice and had a look at your posting history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac
fantastic fantasy from fanatic fanboys......... wonder when we'll see a post from a true BD supporting enthusiast on this thread. My filters are getting full with BD BS from this thread alone.
The bottom line is that no expert on the matter would make a future prediction on the hidef format war. It's too early too soon.
This after myself and a few others have stated that we own BD playing gear.. but you continue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac
what a waste of a thread.... please argue off line... PM is here for the very purpose, for those active poster who just post for the sake of arguing.... it's not a arguing contest and really won't add much to already deteriorating thread......
all you BD fanboys are winners online.......... so just move on.
Which sort of sounds like "I cant win my argument so please go away so that I can feel better about myself" but what gives you the right to "win" an argument by telling other posters to stop posting? Also, if its a waste of a thread then why don't YOU stop posting?
{IMO this thread is entertaining, and sometimes even informative, ergo it fulfills its purpose (for me)}
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac
how do you determine veteran status?... I've been member here since 1995/6.... account required reactivation due to long term inactive status. Anyway, if you're so called veteran here, you should know better than post something so childish.
sorry for the OT folks.... BD fanboys are to blame.
Yes we should bow to your VAST age and therfore your implied wisdom, we should be grateful that you condescend to post among us, we should pay homage to your greatness and then all nod with the sage judgment you have imparted to us that YES "BD fanboys" have made the planet sick, because now we know your not looking for a fight by throwing insults around.
but then you posted this
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac
Amazon BD sales spike is due to a new promo on Sony Movies. We've seen this before few months back, and also seen it drop down to norm after the promo. Here's a link for those few BD player owners out there.
there are lots of people that arent buying because we dont want to have an extra piece of equip. laying around if we made the wrong choice. its as simple as that. there are lots of us.
Oh what has happened of wise and lengthy poster? why has your wisdom forsaken us?
Posting misinformation? that might piss someone off, could that actually happen?
Saying "I'm sorry, I was wrong" is actually pretty easy, perhaps it would further your wisdom to try and learn how to do that?
1. Since Inception they are only %10 away from 50/50 despite having a 4 studio advantage. Pathetic
Or put it another way BD has went from 0% of the market share to 60% since its inception.
Oh and don't forget the Week Ending data, in a week that BD "only" had 2 releases and that good old mainstay Universal had 17.. mm.. should have seen one of those swings you were whooping about a while back, but anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison
2. Their 1st generation hardware save for the PS3 is obsolete and won't support the 1.1 profile
Oh you mean their first gen hardware EXCEPT for the one player that has sold multiple millions world wide, yes quickly lets ignore THAT anomaly because it just throws your FUD speak WAAY off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison
3. Players are still 2x the minimum price compared to HD DVD
In case you have stopped reading some of the posts (and I don't blame you for that) its already been pointed out AT LENGTH that 2X is utter pigswill
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison
No garbage there at all....Blu-ray still looks like shat.
No, no garbage posted from you that might ignore the facts.
-
and no, I had no real need to post that except that I'm off work today and needed to point out a few errors in your post.
Oh you mean their first gen hardware EXCEPT for the one player that has sold multiple millions world wide, yes quickly lets ignore THAT anomaly because it just throws your FUD speak WAAY off.
Dude...your attacking phantom arguments here. I clearly said "save for the PS3". I'm scracthing here wondering how you got me ignoring the PS3 right now. The PS3 is the only Blu-ray player that is likely to support Profile 1.1 meaning it'll last longer and player more titles without glitch. Pay attention.
Quote:
In case you have stopped reading some of the posts (and I don't blame you for that) its already been pointed out AT LENGTH that 2X is utter pigswill
Simple math Walter. You may be able to find someone selling some old Samsung for less but I'll choose to highlight currently manufactured models.
Quote:
No, no garbage posted from you that might ignore the facts.
and no, I had no real need to post that except that I'm off work today and needed to point out a few errors in your post.
Well you attacked a phantom argument as I clearly mentioned the PS3 wasn't likely to be obsolete.
You claimed that my 2x statement was pigswill although Amazon clearly shows the 2x pricing advantage (even at worst if retailer go with MSRP HD DVD is still 1.8x cheaper)
I'm really feeling like you devasted my argument and humbled me here. Shall I aquiesce an genuflect in honor of your greatness?
Seriously though. You guys are arguing the wrong points. You're trying to refute every single thing and turn any Blu-ray negative into a positive.
It's clear how the battle is forming.
HD DVD is cheaper
Blu-ray has more content
Both formats need to get where the other is in time.
Both formats need to get where the other is in time.
Getting cheaper is within the control of Blu-ray makers. Getting more content is not within the control of HD-DVD makers. If that's the way the battle is forming HD-DVD is hosed (whining to the EU isn't likely to bear fruit) as BD controls its own destiny and HD-DVD does not.
Comments
It's right there in the features.
- High-definition video upscaling (480i or 480p to 720p/1080i)
- Deinterlacing (480i to 480p) through HDMI output
It's all through the HDMI output or at least through the component outputs. So, yes, your LDs will look better since they will be at least deinterlaced, or upscaled if you select that option, although obviously not as good as a true 1080 disc with 3:2 pulldown to 24fps.Hey, thanks Kolchak and SDW. I ended up doing what I should have done in the first place, downloading the manual. It does look like the potential is there, how well it works in the real world is something I'll eventially find out later.
BTW, I'm not a great fan of Denon. Also, I'm not sure how important HDMI 1.3 is going to be. I guess we have to get used to the fact that we can't future proof electronic toys, there's always going to be something new down the road in a year or two.
The next is to attack Blu-Ray on technical grounds, even though he just got done saying that the capabilities are essentially the same. Even if he can prove a slight HD-DVD advantage in this area (and I don't think he can), it doesn't matter. Consumers aren't responding to any perceived differences.
But they should.
Blu-Ray is evidence that Sony has learned nothing from the Betamax, Memory Stick or MiniDisc fiascos.
They still think it's all about them, and their obsessive need for near-total control of the media format.
Sony is a company that deep down, harbours a deep distrust of its own customers.
For that reason alone, Blu-Ray should fail.
The DRM-laden Blu-Ray disc will not deter counterfeiters, but will only serve to restrict legitimate owners. The audio world is actually now headed towards openness with EMI leading the way, and Sony and much of Hollywood are determined to resist this trend at all costs.
The only good thing about this situation is that customers won't really lose. If Blu-Ray does win without jettisoning its restrictive DRM, it sets the stage for Apple to swoop in and dominate the film distribution game with the next iteration of AppleTV.
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/sh...DVD_Player/743
Well.... LG and Samsung seems to be setting a good example of how newer generation players should be. The pricing may be little off the top, but all the Blu-Ray players are all up there anyway. However, these newer models support both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray and this may be a good solution for some AV enthusiasts. If and when these combo players are available at $199 or less, then the hybrid(HD/SD) discs format may be the more popular format.
Anyway, I think there will be even more combo players being announce with expected revisions of soon to be obsolete standalone Blu-Ray players.
The format war is just beginning to warm up. We still have not seen the real blood shed, yet.
Well.... LG and Samsung seems to be setting a good example of how newer generation players should be. The pricing may be little off the top, but all the Blu-Ray players are all up there anyway. However, these newer models support both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray and this may be a good solution for some AV enthusiasts. If and when these combo players are available at $199 or less, then the hybrid(HD/SD) discs format may be the more popular format.
Anyway, I think there will be even more combo players being announce with expected revisions of soon to be obsolete standalone Blu-Ray players.
"All the Blu-ray players are all up there anyway"? Are you trying to surpass Murch for outright silliness? Let's have a look at Amazon, shall we?
- Samsung BD-P1200 - $500
- Sony BDP-S300 - $500
- Sony BDP-S1 - $700
- Philips BDP-9000 - $750
Do any of these even approach the $1200 cost of the combo player? Meanwhile, in your beloved HD DVD camp, Toshiba's own HD-XA2 still runs $590, so it's hardly the all-bargains format you try to make it out to be. Combo players will never hit $199. HD DVD will die long before it comes to that, taking the "soon to be obsolete" HD DVD players with them."All the Blu-ray players are all up there anyway"? Are you trying to surpass Murch for outright silliness? Let's have a look at Amazon, shall we?
- Samsung BD-P1200 - $500
- Sony BDP-S300 - $500
- Sony BDP-S1 - $700
- Philips BDP-9000 - $750
Do any of these even approach the $1200 cost of the combo player? Meanwhile, in your beloved HD DVD camp, Toshiba's own HD-XA2 still runs $590, so it's hardly the all-bargains format you try to make it out to be. Combo players will never hit $199. HD DVD will die long before it comes to that, taking the "soon to be obsolete" HD DVD players with them.I would expect the new combo player to hit around $700 - 850 street price when available around Oct/Nov. 2007.
below is the price range of toshiba HD-DVD players available at amazon:
HD-A2 ($199-$299)
HD-XA2 ($520-$599)
BTW, if you must know, I paid $599 for my XA2 few months back, but I got $80 refund (price protection) and $150 Sony Credit via Sony Credit card.
Therefore, the grand total I paid for my XA2 = $599 - $80 - $150 = $369
Anyway, Blu-Ray has long way to go before any of the standalone players will reach below $300 even for those soon to be obsolete players.
All in all, the main purpose for my prior post was to let you guys know Blu-Ray profile 1.1 and 2.0 compliant players are on it way....... whether you guys think it's important or not. For those who recently became a standalone player owners.... maybe you're not too late to return the unit and wait little longer.
But they should.
Blu-Ray is evidence that Sony has learned nothing from the Betamax, Memory Stick or MiniDisc fiascos.
They still think it's all about them, and their obsessive need for near-total control of the media format.
Sony is a company that deep down, harbours a deep distrust of its own customers.
For that reason alone, Blu-Ray should fail.
The DRM-laden Blu-Ray disc will not deter counterfeiters, but will only serve to restrict legitimate owners. The audio world is actually now headed towards openness with EMI leading the way, and Sony and much of Hollywood are determined to resist this trend at all costs.
The only good thing about this situation is that customers won't really lose. If Blu-Ray does win without jettisoning its restrictive DRM, it sets the stage for Apple to swoop in and dominate the film distribution game with the next iteration of AppleTV.
But they're not. And don't quote me that crap about Sony distrusting their own customers. The entire movie industry distrusts its customers.
The fact is that Blu-Ray and Betamax aren't the same. Betamax had some real disadvantages.
Wiki:
The main issue with the Beta format in the early days of the USA market was recording time.
Recording time was everything, with Beta eventually managing 5 hours at BIII (13.3 mm/sec) on an ultra-thin L-830 cassette, and VHS achieving 6 hours with Extended Play on the standard T-120 cassette (and up to 9 hours on an ultra-thin T-180 cassette, later even longer with the T-200 cassette). Slower tape speeds meant a degradation in picture quality, but the consumer didn't seem to mind. Sony was never able to overcome the disadvantage of the 1 hour recording limit when Beta was introduced.
Moreover, VHS was embraced by the Adult film market, which helped as well. The comparison is just not valid. Also, note the manufacturer advantage VHS had...40 to 12 at the peak of the war.
Considering the PS3 does or will be able to do (after a software update) everything on Blu-ray the XA2 can do for HD DVD -- and includes a very capable gaming console and even a powerful Folding@home client -- tell me again why the XA2 is such a great value. And no, the A2 doesn't count. It's a stripped down model.
below is the price range of toshiba HD-DVD players available at amazon:
HD-A2 ($199-$299)
HD-XA2 ($520-$599)
There you go again, cherry-picking figures to support your argument. I use the actual prices Amazon itself charges for new Blu-ray units and you decide to use their third-party seller prices, which change on a whim. Where is your mythical $199 price for a new A2? The lowest I see is about $250. Amazon itself charges $273 and it doesn't top out at $299. There are quite a few units selling for up to $500, not that many people are dumb enough to pay that.
Besides, who gives a damn what the Toshibas are selling for? That wasn't the point. You seem to miss the point so often around here, it's not funny. Codger asks if the A/V receiver he's considering buying will make his laserdiscs look better and you avoid the question entirely, instead going off about whether it should be done in the receiver or in the TV. And this now. Again, who gives a damn? You were talking about how expensive "all" the Blu-ray players were ("over the top" pricing). I pointed out they're not. Even if the Samsung will be $850 (I seriously doubt it will be below $1000), that doesn't match the $500 players, so you were talking garbage when you said all the Blu-ray players are that expensive. The price of HD DVD players is completely irrelevant there. Even if they were $1.99, you were spreading untruths about the Blu-ray players.
I had no idea 9 months ago that the Blu-ray dogma was so strong. I'm not the only one becoming keen on this dogma as the Euro Commission is investigating. It doesn't make sense that there are 170k standalone HD DVD players purchased purposely to play movies.
It doesn't make sense there there are 150k Xbox HD DVD add ons purchased expressly to play movies.
Yet 4 studios cling (collude) to a format that cost more to manufacture. If it's the DRM just tell people "it's the damn DRM" but stop lying to us.
Content is the "only" thing keeping Blu-ray afloat.
I'm perfectly willing to eat crow about LGF and Disney.
I had no idea 9 months ago that the Blu-ray dogma was so strong. I'm not the only one becoming keen on this dogma as the Euro Commission is investigating. It doesn't make sense that there are 170k standalone HD DVD players purchased purposely to play movies.
It doesn't make sense there there are 150k Xbox HD DVD add ons purchased expressly to play movies.
Yet 4 studios cling (collude) to a format that cost more to manufacture. If it's the DRM just tell people "it's the damn DRM" but stop lying to us.
Content is the "only" thing keeping Blu-ray afloat.
one: The EU are a bunch of whiners. Whining about how Switzerland is being bad by allowing tax competition among provinces (OMFG...competition? Oh the horror!). Whining about Apple's Fairplay. Whining about the UK about something I forget now.
Pretty much whining about how everyone successful is doing something unfair because otherwise, how could they be successful? Paint me euro-skeptic. In a big F-ing way. Great concept. Poor execution. I blame the French.
two: Collude to do what? Pick a format they feel is superior? What evidence of collusion is there? None. And its not like studios have been shy about saying they feel that BD has better protection so yeah, they've been saying its the DRM a while now. Region coding is one thing the studios can point to and tell the EU to bugger off.
three: that there aren't that many HD-DVD players out there makes plenty of sense. We're still in the early adoptor phase. No collusion is required to see limited offerings in both HW and SW.
Geez, you're really grasping at straws. Blu-ray dogma? How about rampant HD-DVD paranoia and idiocy?
Vinea
Nieslsen/VideoScan Numbers ending July 1
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/questex/hom070807/
WE: BD-65% HDD-35% YTD: BD-67% HDD-33% SI: BD-60% HDD-40%
This was the week of the big Universal blitz. 17 new releases vs. 2 new Blu-ray releases for the week. They managed to pick up a few points against the previous week, but nothing Earth-shattering. Meanwhile, Blu-ray inches another percentage point upward in the "since inception" figure.
Playstation 3 price drops $100 next week
Considering the PS3 does or will be able to do (after a software update) everything on Blu-ray the XA2 can do for HD DVD -- and includes a very capable gaming console and even a powerful Folding@home client -- tell me again why the XA2 is such a great value. And no, the A2 doesn't count. It's a stripped down model.
There you go again, cherry-picking figures to support your argument. I use the actual prices Amazon itself charges for new Blu-ray units and you decide to use their third-party seller prices, which change on a whim. Where is your mythical $199 price for a new A2? The lowest I see is about $250. Amazon itself charges $273 and it doesn't top out at $299. There are quite a few units selling for up to $500, not that many people are dumb enough to pay that.
Besides, who gives a damn what the Toshibas are selling for? That wasn't the point. You seem to miss the point so often around here, it's not funny. Codger asks if the A/V receiver he's considering buying will make his laserdiscs look better and you avoid the question entirely, instead going off about whether it should be done in the receiver or in the TV. And this now. Again, who gives a damn? You were talking about how expensive "all" the Blu-ray players were ("over the top" pricing). I pointed out they're not. Even if the Samsung will be $850 (I seriously doubt it will be below $1000), that doesn't match the $500 players, so you were talking garbage when you said all the Blu-ray players are that expensive. The price of HD DVD players is completely irrelevant there. Even if they were $1.99, you were spreading untruths about the Blu-ray players.
Ah.... you're looking for someone new to fight with?...
At least you are predictable as your behavior would show the supports you've provided other than trying to pick a fight.
Wait a minute...... you're always trying to pick a fight and that's all you do here..... as obvious as a trademark of your own, if you can look back through your posting history, you'll realize it if you're not already aware of your behavior.
Anyway, if you understood about video processing as how analog S-video signal gets processed via two options?
1)\tS-video (480i analog) to HDTV (processed to 720/1080p native panel resolution)
2)\tS-video (480i analog) to AVR (processed to 720/1080p in digital) then passed to HDTV via HDMI and processed once again via HDTV prior to displaying to either 768p or to over-scanning process on the panel.
Every little process steps will affect the video output even when you ignore the differences of video processors involved.
I?ll just stop here since I?m probably talking to a wall on this matter, and I have no urge to educate just for you in particular.
BTW, $100 off $599 PS3 will not save it..... It's still too expensive...... even for you, right?
As for your uneducated guess that the BDP-UP5000 is going to cost $700-850, there are already reports that it will be over $500 more than the current price of a standalone Blu-ray player. Meanwhile, most people fully expect Blu-ray players to fall in price yet again by Black Friday, which will make a $1000+ combo player very unattractive.
1. Since Inception they are only %10 away from 50/50 despite having a 4 studio advantage. Pathetic
2. Their 1st generation hardware save for the PS3 is obsolete and won't support the 1.1 profile
3. Players are still 2x the minimum price compared to HD DVD
No garbage there at all....Blu-ray still looks like shat.
Hey, thanks Kolchak and SDW. I ended up doing what I should have done in the first place, downloading the manual. It does look like the potential is there, how well it works in the real world is something I'll eventially find out later.
BTW, I'm not a great fan of Denon. Also, I'm not sure how important HDMI 1.3 is going to be. I guess we have to get used to the fact that we can't future proof electronic toys, there's always going to be something new down the road in a year or two.
I recall doing some reading on the Denon with respect to video performance compared to the Yamaha and others. I believe it came out significantly ahead.
Right now you really need to spend a minimum of $1500-2000 to get good video upscaling performance. At least that was the case 6 months ago when I was researching it.
I hear you about HDMI 1.3. I would suspect Denon will add that for this year. I think it may depend on your setup as to whether you notice or not. With my Panasonic Plasma (consumer level) I don't think I'd see a difference...nor hear a difference since I don't even have surround sound at the moment!
I'm perfectly willing to eat crow about LGF and Disney.
I had no idea 9 months ago that the Blu-ray dogma was so strong. I'm not the only one becoming keen on this dogma as the Euro Commission is investigating. It doesn't make sense that there are 170k standalone HD DVD players purchased purposely to play movies.
It doesn't make sense there there are 150k Xbox HD DVD add ons purchased expressly to play movies.
Yet 4 studios cling (collude) to a format that cost more to manufacture. If it's the DRM just tell people "it's the damn DRM" but stop lying to us.
Content is the "only" thing keeping Blu-ray afloat.
Huh? Content is ALWAYS what dominates the format wars. And you're wrong anyway...Blu-Ray has momentum on its side, and the PS3...which is no small advantage.
What stellar performance from Blu-ray
1. Since Inception they are only %10 away from 50/50 despite having a 4 studio advantage. Pathetic
Best apologist denial....EVAR!
2. Their 1st generation hardware save for the PS3 is obsolete and won't support the 1.1 profile
Whatever. Another prediction as to the impact it will have.
3. Players are still 2x the minimum price compared to HD DVD
No garbage there at all....Blu-ray still looks like shat.
---I think you're just trolling now. In fact, I'm certain. Man..it's going to be a tough year ahead for you. That's [i]my[i] prediction. I insist that when HD-DVD is taken off the market, you post a thread entitled "My Name is hmurchison: I am Defeated."
Ah.... you're looking for someone new to fight with?...
At least you are predictable as your behavior would show the supports you've provided other than trying to pick a fight.
Wait a minute...... you're always trying to pick a fight and that's all you do here..... as obvious as a trademark of your own, if you can look back through your posting history, you'll realize it if you're not already aware of your behavior.
So I took the advice and had a look at your posting history.
fantastic fantasy from fanatic fanboys......... wonder when we'll see a post from a true BD supporting enthusiast on this thread. My filters are getting full with BD BS from this thread alone.
The bottom line is that no expert on the matter would make a future prediction on the hidef format war. It's too early too soon.
This after myself and a few others have stated that we own BD playing gear.. but you continue.
what a waste of a thread.... please argue off line... PM is here for the very purpose, for those active poster who just post for the sake of arguing.... it's not a arguing contest and really won't add much to already deteriorating thread......
all you BD fanboys are winners online.......... so just move on.
Which sort of sounds like "I cant win my argument so please go away so that I can feel better about myself" but what gives you the right to "win" an argument by telling other posters to stop posting? Also, if its a waste of a thread then why don't YOU stop posting?
{IMO this thread is entertaining, and sometimes even informative, ergo it fulfills its purpose (for me)}
how do you determine veteran status?... I've been member here since 1995/6.... account required reactivation due to long term inactive status. Anyway, if you're so called veteran here, you should know better than post something so childish.
sorry for the OT folks.... BD fanboys are to blame.
Yes we should bow to your VAST age and therfore your implied wisdom, we should be grateful that you condescend to post among us, we should pay homage to your greatness and then all nod with the sage judgment you have imparted to us that YES "BD fanboys" have made the planet sick, because now we know your not looking for a fight by throwing insults around.
but then you posted this
Amazon BD sales spike is due to a new promo on Sony Movies. We've seen this before few months back, and also seen it drop down to norm after the promo. Here's a link for those few BD player owners out there.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.htm...cId=1000092881
and were caught out
the link given for 199, clearly has a 299 price.
there are lots of people that arent buying because we dont want to have an extra piece of equip. laying around if we made the wrong choice. its as simple as that. there are lots of us.
Oh what has happened of wise and lengthy poster? why has your wisdom forsaken us?
Posting misinformation? that might piss someone off, could that actually happen?
Saying "I'm sorry, I was wrong" is actually pretty easy, perhaps it would further your wisdom to try and learn how to do that?
What stellar performance from Blu-ray
1. Since Inception they are only %10 away from 50/50 despite having a 4 studio advantage. Pathetic
Or put it another way BD has went from 0% of the market share to 60% since its inception.
Oh and don't forget the Week Ending data, in a week that BD "only" had 2 releases and that good old mainstay Universal had 17.. mm.. should have seen one of those swings you were whooping about a while back, but anyway.
2. Their 1st generation hardware save for the PS3 is obsolete and won't support the 1.1 profile
Oh you mean their first gen hardware EXCEPT for the one player that has sold multiple millions world wide, yes quickly lets ignore THAT anomaly because it just throws your FUD speak WAAY off.
3. Players are still 2x the minimum price compared to HD DVD
In case you have stopped reading some of the posts (and I don't blame you for that) its already been pointed out AT LENGTH that 2X is utter pigswill
No garbage there at all....Blu-ray still looks like shat.
No, no garbage posted from you that might ignore the facts.
-
and no, I had no real need to post that except that I'm off work today and needed to point out a few errors in your post.
Oh you mean their first gen hardware EXCEPT for the one player that has sold multiple millions world wide, yes quickly lets ignore THAT anomaly because it just throws your FUD speak WAAY off.
Dude...your attacking phantom arguments here. I clearly said "save for the PS3". I'm scracthing here wondering how you got me ignoring the PS3 right now. The PS3 is the only Blu-ray player that is likely to support Profile 1.1 meaning it'll last longer and player more titles without glitch. Pay attention.
In case you have stopped reading some of the posts (and I don't blame you for that) its already been pointed out AT LENGTH that 2X is utter pigswill
http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-HD-A2-...3826841&sr=8-1
$246.xx
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-BDP-S300-...3826862&sr=8-1
$499
Simple math Walter. You may be able to find someone selling some old Samsung for less but I'll choose to highlight currently manufactured models.
No, no garbage posted from you that might ignore the facts.
and no, I had no real need to post that except that I'm off work today and needed to point out a few errors in your post.
Well you attacked a phantom argument as I clearly mentioned the PS3 wasn't likely to be obsolete.
You claimed that my 2x statement was pigswill although Amazon clearly shows the 2x pricing advantage (even at worst if retailer go with MSRP HD DVD is still 1.8x cheaper)
I'm really feeling like you devasted my argument and humbled me here. Shall I aquiesce an genuflect in honor of your greatness?
Seriously though. You guys are arguing the wrong points. You're trying to refute every single thing and turn any Blu-ray negative into a positive.
It's clear how the battle is forming.
HD DVD is cheaper
Blu-ray has more content
Both formats need to get where the other is in time.
It's clear how the battle is forming.
HD DVD is cheaper
Blu-ray has more content
Both formats need to get where the other is in time.
Getting cheaper is within the control of Blu-ray makers. Getting more content is not within the control of HD-DVD makers. If that's the way the battle is forming HD-DVD is hosed (whining to the EU isn't likely to bear fruit) as BD controls its own destiny and HD-DVD does not.
Vinea