I've captured 50Mbps DVC-Pro HD across USB. It does work.
From a camera (which camera) or just transferring data off memory (P2 or similar) - the latter is not capturing? I highly doubt that. I get occasional audio sync errors capturing DVCPRO HD even using FW400... (but I am talking 1080p here)... Only when using a FW800 disk on a second bus it does work at all.
Removing FireWire gives consumers and manufacturers even less incentive to use it. Humorously enough, FireWire is still on the plastic MacBook. So it is on the lowest priced machine, but not on the "new" entry level machine.
I think it is a mistake, but not one that will really hurt Apple in the long run.
From a camera (which camera) or just transferring data off memory (P2 or similar) - the latter is not capturing? I highly doubt that. I get occasional audio sync errors capturing DVCPRO HD even using FW400... (but I am talking 1080p here)... Only when using a FW800 disk on a second bus it does work at all.
From P2. You are right its not capturing in the same sense as real time video tape. But the industry is moving toward solid state storage anyway.
Steve Jobs has finally lost it. (Well, actually he's been a bit loopy for the past year.)
Time for him to go.
Dude, you lost it time for you to go!
#1, Apple made a good point on the decision that I support! I'm using the Mac Mini now and I have never used the Firewire since I bought it. I support the decision.
#2, If you was truly serious with audio and or video editing then buy a MacBook Pro if you can't then finance it and if you can't do that then save your money.
#3, If you can't respect Apple's decision then you can go to Windows!
All that I know for sure is I will not spend one bloody dime on an Apple notebook until FireWire is back on the MacBook. I'm not going to spend an extra $500 to get the MacBook Pro.
I've been a Mac user for 10 years, and for the first time ever I am considering buying a Dell.
Your response I feel, is perfectly understandable.
It retains clear advantages over USB 2.0 among higher performance hard drives, but in that market, FireWire is now competing against eSATA, which developed from ATA cabling.
eSATA does not compete with Firewire on Macs for most people. It is not hot pluggable on Macs or on the vast majority of PCs without a lot of effort. You have to restart your computer to mount an eSATA drive. Wow that is so convenient. I also find the eSATA connectors to be very flimsy. Firewire connectors might not be perfect, but they are better than eSATA.
We use Firewire every dang day where I work and it is faster than USB. eSATA is fast but a pain to deal with. Firewire wins. And Target Mode rules.
Yet we've become the same PC sheep that we once ridiculed.
Exactly.
Why Apple would suddenly screw over everyone with devices (me included) that Apple themselves made mainstream on the Mac is beyond me. Apple deserves to be ridiculed for these kinds of decisions. There is no way I am going to buy anything from Apple until they change their mind over this idiotic decision.
People keep thinking that Firewire is some one trick pony.
Video- Yes many of the "current" camcorders are moving to USB transfer. Who here can tell me exactly how the process of transporting clips into iMovie works? Is it even standardized?
AVCHD works fine in iMovie, FCE and FCS. The commands you use are slightly different in the FC programs. Yes, I've tried it using SD cards from my HF10 (AVCHD standard) on the latest versions all three programs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii
Case in point: try syncing a movie to your iPhone and be prepared for a long wait. The first time I did this I thought something must be wrong, but no.
The storage chips are probably the limiting factor here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by euler
Steve may be right that most recent HD camcorders are USB 2.0, but:
1. Do most people have HD camcorders? I don't. I have a SD panasonic camcorder...
2. Does this really change the price of the computer that much? Really, would this have cost them more than a couple bucks to add?
3. Is Firewire Obsolete? I dont think so...
It's not necessarily about the cost, but of the supposed compromises with respect to the space it takes on the edge, there's only so much space there. I think it also requires a PHY chip of some sort that needs to be accommodated. those circuit boards are packed pretty tightly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog
eSATA does not compete with Firewire on Macs for most people. It is not hot pluggable on Macs or on the vast majority of PCs without a lot of effort. You have to restart your computer to mount an eSATA drive. Wow that is so convenient.
This is not true. I have a Firmtek eSATA card and eSATA 4 drive cage and it is hot-pluggable under OS X. It is a supported on the card, I've done it and it works fine. I think it's a limitation of whatever adapter card you're using. The ports inside a Mac Pro don't support hot plugging.
#1, Apple made a good point on the decision that I support! I'm using the Mac Mini now and I have never used the Firewire since I bought it. I support the decision.
#2, If you was truly serious with audio and or video editing then buy a MacBook Pro if you can't then finance it and if you can't do that then save your money.
#3, If you can't respect Apple's decision then you can go to Windows!
#4, If you have problems with any of the above then by default shut your hole!
1. Perhaps you were just unaware of the benefits of Firewire.
2. Correlating "serious" with spending more money is fallacious.
3. We know this
4. Wow. Gestapo style "if you don't like it shut up" nice.
You guys are acting as if it's just consumers who are jaded about Apple hardware (that isn't a phone or mp3 player). The Press is getting tired of Apple "special" events only to walk out bored. When they walk in and get the Jobs Spin they know they've been had.
Why Apple would suddenly screw over everyone with devices (me included) that Apple themselves made mainstream on the Mac is beyond me. Apple deserves to be ridiculed for these kinds of decisions. There is no way I am going to buy anything from Apple until they change their mind over this idiotic decision.
Yes. Apple's design choices have been a bit erratic lately.
Why Apple would suddenly screw over everyone with devices (me included) that Apple themselves made mainstream on the Mac is beyond me. Apple deserves to be ridiculed for these kinds of decisions. There is no way I am going to buy anything from Apple until they change their mind over this idiotic decision.
I did not know that Apple took away the FireWire port that used to be in your Macbook!!! They're really screwing over people, aren't they?
Oh, you're talking about a laptop you haven't bought yet? Then why not go to
and pick up a Macbook with FW400 that was top of the line till 2 days ago? That should last you another couple of years before it's obsolete, by which time this will be a total non-issue. Unless, of course, your definition of "screwing over" people means "Apple won't give me what *I* want! It's all about ME ME ME!"
From P2. You are right its not capturing in the same sense as real time video tape. But the industry is moving toward solid state storage anyway.
I see. Well that is really just data transfer and it would even work via USB 1.1 because the speed is completely irrelevant for data integrity, with SD capturing realtime is mandatory.
Yes the industry is moving to solid storage (without solving the backup / storage problem at reasonable cost like tapes did), just it is not there yet. OS X / iMovie / FCE only support a handful of non-tape devices and not even all manufacturers do provide QT-plugins to make the conversion painless. P2 will most definitely remain out of the reach of most mere mortals for years to come and non-pros (the majority of MacBook customers) will not want to go through error-prone multi-step conversion routines (explain to the average Joe the Plumber how to convert anamorphic AVCHD from an unsupported camera to something iMovie can edit by making manually settings in ffmpeg... I do this frequently and have to look it up once in a while). I think Apple's move was premature and there is a big difference between premature and innovative. Look at Vista to see how people react to vanishing compatibility issues.
Comments
I've captured 50Mbps DVC-Pro HD across USB. It does work.
From a camera (which camera) or just transferring data off memory (P2 or similar) - the latter is not capturing? I highly doubt that. I get occasional audio sync errors capturing DVCPRO HD even using FW400... (but I am talking 1080p here)... Only when using a FW800 disk on a second bus it does work at all.
I think it is a mistake, but not one that will really hurt Apple in the long run.
- Jasen.
1. Do most people have HD camcorders? I don't. I have a SD panasonic camcorder...
2. Does this really change the price of the computer that much? Really, would this have cost them more than a couple bucks to add?
3. Is Firewire Obsolete? I dont think so...
From a camera (which camera) or just transferring data off memory (P2 or similar) - the latter is not capturing? I highly doubt that. I get occasional audio sync errors capturing DVCPRO HD even using FW400... (but I am talking 1080p here)... Only when using a FW800 disk on a second bus it does work at all.
From P2. You are right its not capturing in the same sense as real time video tape. But the industry is moving toward solid state storage anyway.
Steve Jobs has finally lost it. (Well, actually he's been a bit loopy for the past year.)
Time for him to go.
Dude, you lost it time for you to go!
#1, Apple made a good point on the decision that I support! I'm using the Mac Mini now and I have never used the Firewire since I bought it. I support the decision.
#2, If you was truly serious with audio and or video editing then buy a MacBook Pro if you can't then finance it and if you can't do that then save your money.
#3, If you can't respect Apple's decision then you can go to Windows!
All that I know for sure is I will not spend one bloody dime on an Apple notebook until FireWire is back on the MacBook. I'm not going to spend an extra $500 to get the MacBook Pro.
I've been a Mac user for 10 years, and for the first time ever I am considering buying a Dell.
Your response I feel, is perfectly understandable.
It retains clear advantages over USB 2.0 among higher performance hard drives, but in that market, FireWire is now competing against eSATA, which developed from ATA cabling.
eSATA does not compete with Firewire on Macs for most people. It is not hot pluggable on Macs or on the vast majority of PCs without a lot of effort. You have to restart your computer to mount an eSATA drive. Wow that is so convenient. I also find the eSATA connectors to be very flimsy. Firewire connectors might not be perfect, but they are better than eSATA.
We use Firewire every dang day where I work and it is faster than USB. eSATA is fast but a pain to deal with. Firewire wins. And Target Mode rules.
A USB only laptop for $1300? Half the keynote was about the manufacturing process. It used to be Mac users demanded a superior computing platform.
FW provides more device power
FW is bi-directional in reading and writing
FW protects streams better
FW is peer to peer
FW is faster
Yet we've become the same PC sheep that we once ridiculed.
We're not asking things of Apple.
Why can't we have a choice between Matte and Glossy?
Why can't we have ExpressCard slots in ALL portables?
Why can't we have docks?
Why does Apple think they know everything?
Yet we've become the same PC sheep that we once ridiculed.
Exactly.
Why Apple would suddenly screw over everyone with devices (me included) that Apple themselves made mainstream on the Mac is beyond me. Apple deserves to be ridiculed for these kinds of decisions. There is no way I am going to buy anything from Apple until they change their mind over this idiotic decision.
People keep thinking that Firewire is some one trick pony.
Video- Yes many of the "current" camcorders are moving to USB transfer. Who here can tell me exactly how the process of transporting clips into iMovie works? Is it even standardized?
AVCHD works fine in iMovie, FCE and FCS. The commands you use are slightly different in the FC programs. Yes, I've tried it using SD cards from my HF10 (AVCHD standard) on the latest versions all three programs.
Case in point: try syncing a movie to your iPhone and be prepared for a long wait. The first time I did this I thought something must be wrong, but no.
The storage chips are probably the limiting factor here.
Steve may be right that most recent HD camcorders are USB 2.0, but:
1. Do most people have HD camcorders? I don't. I have a SD panasonic camcorder...
2. Does this really change the price of the computer that much? Really, would this have cost them more than a couple bucks to add?
3. Is Firewire Obsolete? I dont think so...
It's not necessarily about the cost, but of the supposed compromises with respect to the space it takes on the edge, there's only so much space there. I think it also requires a PHY chip of some sort that needs to be accommodated. those circuit boards are packed pretty tightly.
eSATA does not compete with Firewire on Macs for most people. It is not hot pluggable on Macs or on the vast majority of PCs without a lot of effort. You have to restart your computer to mount an eSATA drive. Wow that is so convenient.
This is not true. I have a Firmtek eSATA card and eSATA 4 drive cage and it is hot-pluggable under OS X. It is a supported on the card, I've done it and it works fine. I think it's a limitation of whatever adapter card you're using. The ports inside a Mac Pro don't support hot plugging.
If you can't respect Apple's decision then you can go to Windows
Apple is already going to Windows.
Dude, you lost it time for you to go!
#1, Apple made a good point on the decision that I support! I'm using the Mac Mini now and I have never used the Firewire since I bought it. I support the decision.
#2, If you was truly serious with audio and or video editing then buy a MacBook Pro if you can't then finance it and if you can't do that then save your money.
#3, If you can't respect Apple's decision then you can go to Windows!
#4, If you have problems with any of the above then by default shut your hole!
1. Perhaps you were just unaware of the benefits of Firewire.
2. Correlating "serious" with spending more money is fallacious.
3. We know this
4. Wow. Gestapo style "if you don't like it shut up" nice.
You guys are acting as if it's just consumers who are jaded about Apple hardware (that isn't a phone or mp3 player). The Press is getting tired of Apple "special" events only to walk out bored. When they walk in and get the Jobs Spin they know they've been had.
These laptops are BORING
Exactly.
Why Apple would suddenly screw over everyone with devices (me included) that Apple themselves made mainstream on the Mac is beyond me. Apple deserves to be ridiculed for these kinds of decisions. There is no way I am going to buy anything from Apple until they change their mind over this idiotic decision.
Yes. Apple's design choices have been a bit erratic lately.
Apple is already going to Windows.
Who knew John C. Dvorak was posting here?!
Come one folks
A USB only laptop for $1300? Half the keynote was about the manufacturing process. It used to be Mac users demanded a superior computing platform.
FW provides more device power
FW is bi-directional in reading and writing
FW protects streams better
FW is peer to peer
FW is faster
Yet we've become the same PC sheep that we once ridiculed.
We're not asking things of Apple.
Why can't we have a choice between Matte and Glossy?
Why can't we have ExpressCard slots in ALL portables?
Why can't we have docks?
Why does Apple think they know everything?
You might well ask!
Exactly.
Why Apple would suddenly screw over everyone with devices (me included) that Apple themselves made mainstream on the Mac is beyond me. Apple deserves to be ridiculed for these kinds of decisions. There is no way I am going to buy anything from Apple until they change their mind over this idiotic decision.
I did not know that Apple took away the FireWire port that used to be in your Macbook!!! They're really screwing over people, aren't they?
Oh, you're talking about a laptop you haven't bought yet? Then why not go to
http://store.apple.com/us/browse/hom...ls?mco=MTE3NzE
and pick up a Macbook with FW400 that was top of the line till 2 days ago? That should last you another couple of years before it's obsolete, by which time this will be a total non-issue. Unless, of course, your definition of "screwing over" people means "Apple won't give me what *I* want! It's all about ME ME ME!"
From P2. You are right its not capturing in the same sense as real time video tape. But the industry is moving toward solid state storage anyway.
I see. Well that is really just data transfer and it would even work via USB 1.1 because the speed is completely irrelevant for data integrity, with SD capturing realtime is mandatory.
Yes the industry is moving to solid storage (without solving the backup / storage problem at reasonable cost like tapes did), just it is not there yet. OS X / iMovie / FCE only support a handful of non-tape devices and not even all manufacturers do provide QT-plugins to make the conversion painless. P2 will most definitely remain out of the reach of most mere mortals for years to come and non-pros (the majority of MacBook customers) will not want to go through error-prone multi-step conversion routines (explain to the average Joe the Plumber how to convert anamorphic AVCHD from an unsupported camera to something iMovie can edit by making manually settings in ffmpeg... I do this frequently and have to look it up once in a while). I think Apple's move was premature and there is a big difference between premature and innovative. Look at Vista to see how people react to vanishing compatibility issues.