Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire

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  • Reply 1641 of 1665
    mrochestermrochester Posts: 700member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    I think you guys who favor the SD slot really don't understand what's being lost.



    You can get a $12 adapter for SD cards that fits in the Express slot, just as you can get many other adapters.



    The SD slot is the lowest functioning slot you can get. Apple went to it because it's cheap.



    I'm sorry, but anyone getting an expensive computer should know about adapter cards, or at least should know enough to ask about them as has been done here.



    Despite what some PC users think, the Mac is not the "Computer for Dummies". Or at least it shouldn't be.



    If a computer comes with an Express slot, the purchaser should look at the manual to see what can be done with it.



    No excuse not to know this. An SD slot is no substitute.



    Apple said only 1% of customers make use of the Express Card slot, so it seems that's why it went. It was taking up space for very little gain, and I guess they surveyed and found people were more likely to use an SD slot.
  • Reply 1642 of 1665
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mrochester View Post


    Apple said only 1% of customers make use of the Express Card slot, so it seems that's why it went. It was taking up space for very little gain, and I guess they surveyed and found people were more likely to use an SD slot.



    How would they know? They don't make adapters. People who buy them must buy third party models, and that's not something Apple can track. They say they don't do surveys, so where would they get that percentage from?
  • Reply 1643 of 1665
    mrochestermrochester Posts: 700member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    How would they know? They don't make adapters. People who buy them must buy third party models, and that's not something Apple can track. They say they don't do surveys, so where would they get that percentage from?



    No idea that's just the figure apple gave!
  • Reply 1644 of 1665
    pbpb Posts: 4,255member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post


    An SD (Secure Digital) card is a removable memory card that is primarily used to capture photos in digital cameras. I am unaware as to whether an SD slot can be repurposed for any kind of system expansion a la ExpressCard, but I don't think so.



    OK, thanks Frank.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post


    Just read a comment posted under the MacWorld story on the new laptops.



    The poster speculates that the SD card slot could better position Apple to abandon the CD drive entirely.



    I would not be surprized... at all . From this page:



    Quote:

    Can I install Mac OS X on an SD storage device and use it as a startup volume?



    Yes. Change the default partition table to GUID using Disk Utility, and format the card to use the Mac OS Extended file format to do so.




  • Reply 1645 of 1665
    hobbithobbit Posts: 532member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    You don't know if this is true though. Yes, it's wider. But it not wide. If pro cameras can fit two flash slots in there, then Apple could put a CF slot in.



    This is the same argument we had last year about FW.



    Really, If Apple wanted to do it, they would have done it.



    An SD slot makes little sense. They should have stuck with the Express slot.



    I'll tell you the real reason why they did this.



    It's cheaper, and they're lowering the prices. That's why.



    I do not think Apple would have been able to fit a CF slot in without either:

    a) making the MBP bigger (especially with the 13" one), or

    b) reducing the battery life (and probably increasing battery cost as it would no longer be rectangular).

    And neither of these were a realistic option.



    And I don't think the real reason were price savings (although I'm sure that's a bonus), the real reasons IMHO are:



    a) a preparation to remove the internal optical drive in the next revision (I fully expect OSX 10.7 to be available on SD cards.)

    Side note: this will definitely be proven if the next iMac revision also comes with SD card reader.

    b) a further shift away from the Pro market towards 'higher-class' consumers only.

    Let's face it, Apple is no longer a manufacturer with graphics professionals on their mind. Those days are gone. Apple no longer cares. If professionals need feature A and consumers feature B, B wins.

    And the 'Pro' in MacBook Pro long ago stopped meaning 'professional' it means 'prosumer' now.
  • Reply 1646 of 1665
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hobBIT View Post


    I do not think Apple would have been able to fit a CF slot in without either:

    a) making the MBP bigger, or

    b) reducing the battery life (and probably increasing battery cost as it would no longer be rectangular).

    And neither of these were a realistic option.



    And I don't think the real reason were the price savings (although I'm sure that's a bonus), the real reasons are:



    a) a preparation to remove the internal optical drive in the next revision (I fully expect OSX 10.7 to be available on SD cards.)

    Side note: this will definitely be proven if the next iMac revision also comes with SD card reader.

    b) a further shift away from the Pro market towards 'higher-class' consumers only.

    Let's face it, Apple is no longer a manufacturer with graphics professionals on their mind. Those days are gone. Apple no longer cares. If professionals need feature A and consumers feature B, B wins.



    I don't believe any of that. It's just the regurgitated stuff we've been talking about for the past two years.
  • Reply 1647 of 1665
    pbpb Posts: 4,255member
    Hm, after a quick look at the SD site linked in the previous Apple page, I found this. The new cards will provide storage up to 2 TB! and transfer rates between 100 and 300 MB/s. At what price, remains to be seen. Even the current ones go up to 32 GB.



    Is it one of the reasons Apple chose to go SD? Drop completely the optical storage and use instead a tiny package capable to hold much more data? Is it one of the reasons why Apple is so reluctant to adopt the Blu-ray technology?
  • Reply 1648 of 1665
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Here's a typical response about these slots from one Pro photo web site, diglloyd.com.



    Quote:

    The addition of an SD card slot means you can plug in your SD card from your point and shit camera or low-end DSLRs. Or you can stick a piece of tape over it if you own a Nikon D3x, D3 or various Canon CompactFlash-based cameras. Crap—Apple got it 20% right.



    One word of warning: only the 17" model retains the ExpressCard/34 slot, your only viable option for high performance I/O via eSATA. The 15" model drops the ExpressCard/34 slot in favor of the SD card slot, a really crappy tradeoff.



    I don't believe a word about 1%. Too many people I know use the Express slot.
  • Reply 1649 of 1665
    hudson1hudson1 Posts: 800member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post




    I don't believe a word about 1%. Too many people I know use the Express slot.



    Curious... what are they using the EC34 slot for?
  • Reply 1650 of 1665
    How could apple know is someone uses the express slot?



    Apple: Do you for any reason use the express slot?



    99/100 Consumers: No.
  • Reply 1651 of 1665
    mimacmimac Posts: 872member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Avon B7 View Post


    Apple lost the money I had set aside for a MacBook as I ended up spending it on a Lumix G1. ... The question has to be, just how many other people acted the same way I did?



    Exactly what I did. Was gonna drop $$$s on a new MacBook but FireWire was not included (which I needed for peripherals) so bought a Canon EOS 40D instead with all the trimmings. Fantastic camera!



    I'm also curious as to why an SD slot instead of CF?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mrochester


    I don't really know of any cameras that use Compact Flash anymore



    Are you serious? My Canon for a start! CF is ubiquitous on the majority of semi/pro cameras. This may not be the case for consumer models but then the argument could be anyone buying a Mac with an interest in photography might be more inclined to purchase a DSLR rather than a point and shoot.



    Maybe Expresscard would have been a better option if somewhat more expensive. \
  • Reply 1652 of 1665
    hobbithobbit Posts: 532member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dr Strange Lulz View Post


    How could apple know is someone uses the express slot?



    I would presume from the error reports people send in automatically. These include a complete list of installed hardware - including what's in the ExpressCard slot.



    And perhaps also from Genius Bar appointment statistics.



    I'm sure Apple has enough of either to get the picture how many people use ExpressCards, and which ones.
  • Reply 1653 of 1665
    frank777frank777 Posts: 5,839member
    One of my MacBook Pros didn't come with FW800, so I used EC to add it.



    It would have been really useful for old 'Books as we migrate to the USB3 and FW3200 standards next year.



    But Apple doesn't care about that, since they want you to buy a new machine anyway.
  • Reply 1654 of 1665
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,326moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by PB View Post


    Hm, after a quick look at the SD site linked in the previous Apple page, I found this. The new cards will provide storage up to 2 TB!



    Nope, the new card spec supports storage up to 2TB. It's merely a change to the spec that doesn't impose limitations due to the FAT32 filesystem (which causes the same 32GB limit in Bootcamp). There's no way we're going to 2TB any-time soon. SDXC should be available at the end of this year in 64GB though and hopefully a price cut with it.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by PB View Post


    Is it one of the reasons Apple chose to go SD? Drop completely the optical storage and use instead a tiny package capable to hold much more data? Is it one of the reasons why Apple is so reluctant to adopt the Blu-ray technology?



    As Melgross points out, optical storage is still much cheaper for content delivery right now - I think their objection to Blu-Ray really is licensing and the whole DRM throughout the OS. If Apple start to use SD for software, it could catch on though.



    Starting with their OS would be a great move because it should fit on just an 8GB card now and these cost £12. For Apple in bulk, it will be much cheaper and they could offer the choice with 10.6. I would personally pay up to £5 more to get Snow Leopard on an SD card.



    It means much faster installs for one thing and I've really grown to hate the noise that optical drives make. Optical drives are bad by design anyway because they rely on a non-physical link between the storage medium and reader. It just bounces the laser light off the miniscule holes on the disc and needs a lot of error correction.



    The only problem with Flash is price and the price of Flash has gone up due to the oversupply caused by decreased demand in this economy. If Apple come along and start buying it up in bulk for distribution, they make good partners with Flash suppliers, which helps a lot of their business.



    Even just looking at the size of the optical unit inside the MBP, it's clear it has to go eventually:



    http://images.macworld.com/images/le...kproinside.jpg



    You could double the battery life instead. What would be nice is if they started offering this as an option - laptops with no optical unit and double the battery. Netbooks are helping push the no-optical drive setup. I hope it continues to the pojnt where we get rid of it for good. I am making a point to never buy a Blu-Ray disc and my DVD movies will go onto a hard drive.



    Sooner or later, someone has to introduce movie purchases at ATM machines. Insert SD card, choose movie, insert bank card and authorize purchase. I'm not sure I'd like that though - the queues will be horrendous.
  • Reply 1655 of 1665
    pbpb Posts: 4,255member
    Marvin, I am saying the same thing as you about capacity. The 2 TB limit is not going to be reached soon and if I have read correctly, today the highest capacity in the market is 32 GB and of course it is still more costly than the optical solutions per GB. But even so, this storage technology seems promising for the mobile computing.



    I would choose even today and SD-only equipped MBP over one with an optical drive. Noise, slowness, extra weight and high power consumption have to go one day.
  • Reply 1656 of 1665
    hudson1hudson1 Posts: 800member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by PB View Post


    Marvin, I am saying the same thing as you about capacity. The 2 TB limit is not going to be reached soon and if I have read correctly, today the highest capacity in the market is 32 GB and of course it is still more costly than the optical solutions per GB. But even so, this storage technology seems promising for the mobile computing.



    I would choose even today and SD-only equipped MBP over one with an optical drive. Noise, slowness, extra weight and high power consumption have to go one day.



    Of course the capability of booting a Mac off of an SD card will have to come before optical drives are removed. That's unless a MacBook Air type solution is used but I doubt Apple wants to proliferate that kind of installation procedure any more than they have.
  • Reply 1657 of 1665
    pbg4 dudepbg4 dude Posts: 1,611member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post


    Of course the capability of booting a Mac off of an SD card will have to come before optical drives are removed. That's unless a MacBook Air type solution is used but I doubt Apple wants to proliferate that kind of installation procedure any more than they have.



    The new MBPs with SD slots can boot from them. You just need to reformat the card in OS X's native format and set GUID partition in Disk Utility when formatting.
  • Reply 1658 of 1665
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    As Melgross points out, optical storage is still much cheaper for content delivery right now - I think their objection to Blu-Ray really is licensing and the whole DRM throughout the OS. If Apple start to use SD for software, it could catch on though.



    Those 9.5mm BRDs are still obscenely priced. I doubt they would match the 1% for EC/34 cards at that price. Plus Apple is pushing their digital downloads. Still, I?d like to at least have the HDCP option for consumers wiling to add their own drive



    Quote:

    Starting with their OS would be a great move because it should fit on just an 8GB card now and these cost £12. For Apple in bulk, it will be much cheaper and they could offer the choice with 10.6. I would personally pay up to £5 more to get Snow Leopard on an SD card.



    The OS could fit on 4GB at this point. And because you can boot off of SDHC the installer could be more intelligent than a fixed DVD image, thus making it more secure to resist cloners (though optical disc would still be needed for a few years). If the MBA gets the SD slot then i think it?s a certainty.



    While the SHDC is considerably more expensive than an DL-DVD disc, the cost of the SDHC slot and the SDHC card are probably less than the optical drive that is included. They can ship a lot more in a smaller space and the card could potentially be reused once a new OS come out.



    Quote:

    It means much faster installs for one thing and I've really grown to hate the noise that optical drives make. Optical drives are bad by design anyway because they rely on a non-physical link between the storage medium and reader. It just bounces the laser light off the miniscule holes on the disc and needs a lot of error correction.



    The only problem with Flash is price and the price of Flash has gone up due to the oversupply caused by decreased demand in this economy. If Apple come along and start buying it up in bulk for distribution, they make good partners with Flash suppliers, which helps a lot of their business.



    Even just looking at the size of the optical unit inside the MBP, it's clear it has to go eventually:



    http://images.macworld.com/images/le...kproinside.jpg



    I can install Snow Leopard in 10 minutes from start to restart over USB. They take up a lot of space inside, have to be position where a bunch of new ports could be added, are slow to read, slower to write, prone to write errors, loud and use a lot of power. The reason to maintain this tech [in notebook computers] is dwindling, and Apple isn?t one to play catch up with this kind of thing.



    Quote:

    You could double the battery life instead. What would be nice is if they started offering this as an option - laptops with no optical unit and double the battery. Netbooks are helping push the no-optical drive setup. I hope it continues to the pojnt where we get rid of it for good. I am making a point to never buy a Blu-Ray disc and my DVD movies will go onto a hard drive.



    Sooner or later, someone has to introduce movie purchases at ATM machines. Insert SD card, choose movie, insert bank card and authorize purchase. I'm not sure I'd like that though - the queues will be horrendous.



    Larger battery, another GPU for OpenCL, more ports, another HDD and/or a thinner machine come to mind (though the HDD is still 9.5mm, the same as the optical drive, so that is not too likely. Maybe tapered back-to-front).
  • Reply 1659 of 1665
    Quote:

    You could double the battery life instead. What would be nice is if they started offering this as an option - laptops with no optical unit and double the battery. Netbooks are helping push the no-optical drive setup. I hope it continues to the pojnt where we get rid of it for good. I am making a point to never buy a Blu-Ray disc and my DVD movies will go onto a hard drive.



    I think we'll get that soon, not optical and more SSD (which will be standard soon) and hopefully more ports. Although I'm doubtful on the ports. Apple seems to choose not to add more, not be limited to the number they have. My bets on we will always have the same number give or take 1.
  • Reply 1660 of 1665
    pbpb Posts: 4,255member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by PBG4 Dude View Post


    The new MBPs with SD slots can boot from them. You just need to reformat the card in OS X's native format and set GUID partition in Disk Utility when formatting.



    Absolutely. I posted previously the link, but here it is again:



    About the SD card slot in MacBook Pro (15-inch, 2.53GHz, Mid 2009), MacBook Pro (15-inch, Mid 2009), and MacBook Pro (13-inch, Mid 2009)





    As of now, I see only two reasons for which the optical drive cannot go away: (1) price of the media; (2) official content distribution, which still heavily relies on optical disks. Otherwise, there are only disadvantages in using optical media in portable computers.
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