1st-There is much more to this "story" than is being revealed. That much should be obvious.
2nd-Regarding this whole smoking deal, ignore all the health aspects and political/media BS associated with it. The fact is humans are the only animals on this earth that VOLUNTARILY put smoke in their bodies. Even a monkey has to be trained to do that.
Just a little food for thought, if it helps anyone.
I'm not sure that most posters actually read the article.
Apple never said Nicotine causes cancer, they said the computer was "beyond economical repair due to tar from cigarette smoke".
They also said "nicotine is on OSHA's list of hazardous substances and Apple would not require an employee to repair anything deemed hazardous to their health."
They never said cancer, they said hazardous. Nicotine is toxic, exposure to high concentrations can kill people, lower concentrations can cause birth defects. Nicotine can also interfere with your body's natural defenses to cancer.
Maybe it was some other lifestyle choice of his like being a Vegan or genetically "in his DNA" so to speak. There are documented smokers that have died a ripe of age but not from lung cancer and some non-smokers that have died at an early age and never smoked a day in their life - Dana Reeve comes to mind.
and you're certain Dana Reeve never had significant exposure to 2nd hand smoke?
When the US is spoken of being litigious. That's talking about private litigation between two party's. That's completely different from governmental regulation. Which the US is not the most strict.
The air quality in major cities is not equal to sitting in a closed room with second hand smoke. You are stretching you point a bit thin.
To your first point... can't have litigation without laws and regulation (ie rules)
2nd point... stand on the corner of 42nd street for 8 hours a day 5 days a week for 15 years and come back and tell me it's not the same thing. Just because you can't see it don't mean the chems aren't there. Read some more up on it my friend.
Your example would apply to any highly trafficked street. No it would not be very good for you to have long term exposure to car emissions for years.
But your example is so extreme it's ultimately useless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spliff monkey
2nd point... stand on the corner of 42nd street for 8 hours a day 5 days a week for 15 years and come back and tell me it's not the same thing. Just because you can't see it don't mean the chems aren't there. Read some more up on it my friend.
Good god will all you anti-smoking jerks get off your high horse! I know you love to make yourself feel better than those around you by whatever means you can but seriously. Not the debate here.
YES it's possible for someone who smokes WAY TOO MUCH to smoke damage their machine - as photos have been posted to show - if you smoke enough to tar your walls what do you expect to happen to the inside of your electronic devices? If you don't want to smoke less, then either buy a new machine or start smoking outside - computers aren't invulnerable and it would take years for that kind of tar to build up anyway.
However it's not the kind of thing a normal smoker would be afflicted by, I smoke in the same room as my Mac Pro every day (but in all my years of smoking have never smoked more than 10 a day) and there's nothing more than the normal dust build up in my machine.
I very much doubt apple are refusing repairs on a machine that's not been directly damaged as a result of smoke damage on the scale you might find running a machine next to a furnace.
Applecare is not 3 years extended. Applecare is 2 years extended as the first year is by default. So, you're getting 1 year default covered + 2 more years if you purchase Applecare = 3 years.
Dell is having "accidental damage", something which Apple doesn't have.
AppleCare is one year or 3 year extemded. 1+2=3. How about them Apples?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximara
You want modern? OK.
Hybrid rice: Yuan Longping aka "The Father of Hybrid Rice" 1973
computerized laser photocomposition (ie Laser typsetting): Peking University Professor Wang Xuan "the Father of Chinese Language Laser Typesetting" 1974
First synthesized protein (bovine insulin): Wang Yinglai 1966
Compound artemether (Used to treat Malaria that has become resistant to other methods) , in Tu Youyou 1972.
And what part of these advancements run in computers today? The closest you have is laser typesetting from 35 years ago. How about getting on point and finding some modern tech that is currently being sold outside China in today’s CE.
Amazing pics you found there! Disgusting to say the least.
Anyhow, although I don't smoke, and despise second hand smoke (yay for a state law that prohibits smoking inside!) I don't see how Apple can get away with this one. The right thing to do would be to either deny Applecare up front (which may fall into some sort of other legal issue) or to refund the customers their Applecare. Also, can anyone find this stated in the Applecare warranty, and when it was introduced into its legal terms?
Agreed the techs should be safe, but if smoker issues pose that much of a problem, then that part that voids the warranty should be stated up front clearly (unlike how I just phrased this sentence)
I agree. The way they're handling it makes it looks like its trying to sell extended warranty under false pretense and then weasel their way out of them. I wouldn't be surprised at all if this eventually became a class action lawsuit, something that could have been avoided by either listing smoking as voiding the warranty or sending a notice that repairing such things is a health violations and allowing those who smoke or live with those who do to cancel their AppleCare.
Back when I fixed computers, every great once and a while someone would bring in a computer from a heavy indoor smoking home. You'd open it up and everything inside would be coated with a fuzzy-yet-sticky film of yellow residue (sometimes quite thick). The computer vented the smoke in and it caked over the components and casing inside. It was disgusting.
I refused service to every single one of these customers.
As a former Apple Store employee, I can state that the number of Macs that come in for repair showing signs of their owner being a heavy smoker are few. The occasions when a computer shows substancial damage from the user smoking for hours sitting in front of their Mac are rare. But, when they come in, they stand out.
The white iMacs and iBooks begin to brown and yellow from the tar transferred from a smokers hands. The plastic around screens used to discolor and absorb odor.
Upon opening some Macs, the smell of 'electric cigarettes' would permiate the entire back of house at a store.
Many Mac Geniuses would wear gloves, masks, and goggles when attempting to repair these units.
Even worse... Mac owners with cats or roaches. Cats would rub on the warm computer. Roaches would make the computer their home.
My $.02 about the whole thing... smoking is perfectly legal. I have little issue with individuals who choose to partake in smoking regardless of the well documented risks. However, I have HUGE issue with the fact that most smokers feel like their 'right to smoke' superceded my 'right to not smoke'. The second hand smoke these folks spew is more toxic than the filteredmaterial they breath in by choice.
Even worse, smokers litter our highways, streets, parking lots, and sidewalks with their butts. Odd, I've never met a smoker who uses the ashtray in their car, but I've also never met a smoker who admits to flicking their butts onto the road. How do those butts get there?
The final straw - smokers who have children. The most ironic action I've seen is parents who stop drinking, eating raw fish, drinking caffine, etc while the child is in the womb. Yet, they are perfectly fine with welcoming the young child into their smoke filled home. Oh no wait... they "only smoke outside".. and in the car, and resturants, and while their child sits in their lap outside. "We love our kids, so we try not to smoke around them." "We love snakes, so we lock them up in glass aquariums." "I'm a bird lover, so I clip his wings and keep him in the cage in my home." "We're 'dog people', so we have this 100 lb dog in our apartment." "I'm a cat lover, so I have 40 of them." (a little humor folks)
Smoking in any public place or place of employment is illegal in Ohio - Ohio voters voted in favor of this ban in 2006.
I should have been more precise. Smoking in public where it affects others has been made illegal in many states and countries. Smoking where there is as much interaction with others as there is with the emissions from a car's tailpipe would likely not be affected.
Just quit smoking, it's that simple. Smoking does not do anything for the smoker, so why should anyone who does not smoke work for hours on a product that is potentially hazardous to his or her health.
If you have asthma or in any way allergic to smoking, even buying and reading a used book from a smoking home, can cause you serious health problem. I know a car dealership that charges extra to work on any smoker vehicle.
Quit smoking. The only thing that will happen to you is that you will live longer with less health-related problems. And someone else do not have to suffer because you chose to suffocate your life.
To quote my Doctor recently when I said that I don't smoke- "It's too bad smoking is so bad for you, because it does a lot that is good." That being said, the harm outways the good and people really shouldn't smoke. Still, you should try to be informed before making absolute statements. People who smoke do so because it does do something for them. Have some compassion.
As for the topic of this thread, unless they can show either that the smoking damaged the computer, voiding the warranty, or that the tar is factually harmful, they should fix the computers.
Back when I fixed computers, every great once and a while someone would bring in a computer from a heavy indoor smoking home. You'd open it up and everything inside would be coated with a fuzzy-yet-sticky film of yellow residue (sometimes quite thick). The computer vented the smoke in and it caked over the components and casing inside. It was disgusting.
I refused service to every single one of these customers.
Good for you. I might do the work for them, but I'd charge a premium (and I'd have to invest in a well-ventilated work area).
I once brought in a macbook for repairs after spilling coffee on it. It was still under warranty and the Apple store replaced the keyboard and optical drive at no charge. I expected to pay for the repairs. This is why I am a "Mac fanboy." Extraordinary products and service.
[QUOTE=palegolas;1524620]This is groundbreaking! I'm all for a drug free world, especialy airbourne ones. [\\QUOTE]
I suggest then you go to the EPA website and look at the stats. Smoking is the least of you concerns. Ironically, the worst is China, where the macs are assembled. Communist too. And Mexico? Like smoking two packs a day that's how bad the air is. I never understood why we dint have a international DO NOT DRIVE DAY. even in Los Angeles I've noticed christmas day to appear the cleanest. No cars on the road. Just make it acgreen paid vacation day, helping the planet become better for us all.
Just quit smoking, it's that simple. Smoking does not do anything for the smoker, so why should anyone who does not smoke work for hours on a product that is potentially hazardous to his or her health.
If you have asthma or in any way allergic to smoking, even buying and reading a used book from a smoking home, can cause you serious health problem. I know a car dealership that charges extra to work on any smoker vehicle.
Quit smoking. The only thing that will happen to you is that you will live longer with less health-related problems. And someone else do not have to suffer because you chose to suffocate your life.
Still a free country. Where one can do what they want with their own self. Destroy it or meditate until the Apple's fall from the tree's. Your choice.
As to repair rejection... Sorry and sad. I work in Medical IT field. I've been in rooms with CT, MRI and Xray systems running. Dressed in lead. But this is still hazardous. And as much as I hate Dell THEY will replace the system NO QUESTIONS ASKED (as does IBM/Lenovo BTW).
Sorry your iPhone will not be repaired because it was operated in LA where the air quality is less than superb.
Sorry your iPod will not be repaird because it had sugar stickness on it and sugar is bad for you.
What are they gonna do in China? Where the air quality is less than smokers 2nd hand smoke...
It's BS like this I say "Hackintosh's to the rescue!"
It?s one thing to refuse service because excessive tar actually caused the failure (I?ve seen some disgusting stained walls in smokers? homes). Maybe that can happen, hard as it is to believe.
It?s another to say that no safety gear exists which allows workers to repair the machine safely. I feel certain that a properly-equipped repair tech could work on tobacco-slimed hardware for many years without taking in any of the toxins.
I suppose Apple could say that supplying such gear (and the extra time involved) makes the repair too expensive to cover...
One of many good points being overlooked in the anti-smoker tirades in this thread. The bottom line is simply that there are means to protect workers to OSHA safety regulations, and there are jobs that require exposure (plumbers to sewerage was a good analogy).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
(long rant - deleted)
Smoking will be illegal in public in your lifetime probably. Get used to it.
No disagreement - - but as of 2009, it still is both legal as well as conducted by a not-insignificant portion of society. As such, some amount of its presence is within the expected norms of Society - - in other words, within "Normal Wear & Tear" of Warranty langage. Of course, there is the issue still of "Slippery Slope" - - how much is normal versus excessive - - but what this is observing is that the accept/reject limit cannot be set at zero.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna
One person was allegedly told that the damage was caused by tar buildup from smoking around the machine.
With the keyword here being ALLEGEDLY. I've not noticed any conspicuous mention of the Apple Service ID#, nor any photographs (proof evidence) provided supposedly by Apple. As such, I have my personal doubts as to the legitimacy of the entire claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1
A couple of points:
1) No computer coming in for repair, especially after any length of time, is clean and pristine inside. If being clean is a prerequisite for warranty service, most computers would be denied coverage.
Exactly. Accumulation of some amount of dust/misc is part of normal utilization and is what constitutes "Normal Wear and Tear" that is expected to be accomodated within Warranty Language.
Quote:
3) Nicotine probably has a very low precipitation rate on surfaces. The gunk in the computer is much more likely tar.
True, but smokers aren't an exctinct species, so their contributions also have to be considered to be part of the default environment that a product will need to be expected to routinely operate in. Ditto for contamination from Pet Dander, Los Angeles Smog, Midwestern Dust Storms, Florida Salt Air, etc.
If a hypothetical computer is for some reason quite highly vulnerable to these sorts of normal environmental hazards bringing it to an overheating halt, then it is a product design flaw ... a failure in having a HEPA-esque filter to be maintained. Afterall, our automobiles have air filters ... and so have there also been air filters on computer equipment - they're just not typically found on our cheap consumer level PCs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core
As per Apple's standard hardware Warrantee decrees, i.e., "?This warranty does not apply: (a) to damage caused by use with non-Apple products; (b) to damage caused by accident, abuse, misuse, flood, fire, earthquake or other external causes?, the presence of a sufficient substance to cause the computer to malfunction, is sufficient to negate the service.
Although having a machine come in for service with such visual evidence to conclude that the primary cause of failure is due to using it in a 'smoking' environment of any degree, proclaiming that "?nicotine is on OSHA's list of hazardous substances and Apple would not require an employee to repair anything deemed hazardous to their health." may in part not be totally accurate.
This is dilemma of the 'slippery slope', namely of how much of a "smoke environment" can be considered as constituting "Normal Wear and Tear" (within Society Norms) that can reasonably be expected to be accomodated within Warranty Language.
Quote:
Certainly, the employees refusal to repair the computer under warranty is perfectly within their rights and Apple's position to protect their employees where it might be deemed a health hazard to any extent is equally valid.
Yes, but not quite: if the health hazard didn't void the Warranty, then the Warranty that was sold to the consumer still must be honored, lest Apple be in breach of contract.
And the business solution here is brutally simple: if the OSHA-required protection levels for the employee are more expensive than the computer, then the Warranty obligation can be fulfilled by hardware replacement instead of hardware repair. Alleged OSHA Problem...Solved!
And FWIW, I don't ever recall AppleCare having an escape clause of "not cost effective to repair" that permits them to completely walk away from the contract. If such language does exist, then I'd never pay for AppleCare.
Quote:
Keep in mind that some non-smokers can enter a locked 'smoking' room and be unaffected at all. Whereas, others become totally repulsed at even the thought of touching the door nob.
And this is what makes the 'Slippery Slope' problems more acute, particulary as the percentage of our Society that smokes becomes smaller: the current generation simply has no experience with what the levels of smoking used to be like ~30 years ago to really appreciate how relatively begnine they are today. Just consider how few people you see today with the condition of hard yellow fingertips due to the combination of nicotine, tar, and cellular death...
Quote:
Originally Posted by lunga
Must be a slow news day.
Perhaps. Until I see Service ID#s and photos of the alledgedly offending hardware, I'm cynically suspicious that this might also be contrived news.
If the damage is caused by smoke buildup then I agree with you, but just because there is a problem with the computer and there is smoke buildup in the system does not necessarily mean that the part that has gone bad did so due to smoke buildup. Even if there is a large amount of smoke buildup in the computer there could be a part that fails due to a manufacturing defect after a year or two of use.
An excellent point: the presence of an accumulation in of itself is not proof of causality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
Quite right, but lack of maintenance, misuse and abuse of a machine trumps most manufacturer?s defects because it?s simply too hard to determine the cause if a machine is in such a state and no warranties for CE do not cover regular cleanings as part of the agreement, which would be required first and foremost before Apple could service most potential defects.
Understood, but there's also a certain marketplace expectation that influences upon whome the Burden of Proof resides. FWIW, this is why I'm suspicious of this report coming out without it being accompanied by photographic evidence as the basis of Apple's denial.
Quote:
These idiots should have cleaned out their own machine before sending it in, but...
Unfortunately, this suggestion can clearly be a double-edged sword, since sometimes the action of opening the case will void a Warranty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LouisTheXIV
I think people are being willfully obtuse and blinded by their hatred of smokers. This is where the incessant anti-smoking campaign have taken us--towards absolute hatred and license to screw people.
Do you people not see where this can lead? No one is arguing that if smoke has actually DAMAGED your computer, that counts like any other reason to void a warranty from personal damage. What is however obvious from this "decree" is that if a computer merely "smells" of smoke that Apple deems it a "health hazard" which is beyond ridiculous. This opens the door for Apple to void warranties easily and without proof of anything. A computer may not be damaged at all by smoke residue but if it even has a wiff of left over smoke then they will call that a biohazard and refuse to service your computer.
An excellent point. Personally, if a company tried to pull this sort of BS on me, I'd sue them for a defective product: if its that damn fragile, then where's its integrated HEPA air filter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkyss
I own a mac and live in Oklahoma. Recently the burner stopped working. We have AppleCare so we took it in 2 days ago for repair. We just recieved a call today stating we needed to come get it because they are refusing to work on it due to health hazards from second hand smoke due to OSHA violations.
Sorry, but until I see an Apple Service Tracking ID#, I'm obligated to be cynical...
Quote:
Originally Posted by alandail
how is Apple going to lose, the warranty is for manufacturing defects and expressly excludes issues due to abuse and neglect.
But as I said earlier, smoking still is both legal as well as conducted by a not-insignificant portion of society. As such, some amount of its presence is within the expected norms of Society - - in other words, within "Normal Wear & Tear" of Warranty langage.
Of course, there is the issue still of "Slippery Slope" - - how much accumulation is deemed normal versus excessive - - but the accept/reject limit simply cannot be set at zero.
And it doesn't matter if we're talking about smoke residue, lint, pet dander, LA Smog, or Miami salt air accumulations...there are all normal & routine environmental hazards for which the obligation is for the product design to be able to accomodate...afterall, no one's consumer laptop comes with a warning of "USE ONLY IN A CLASS 100 CLEAN ROOM".
Comments
1st-There is much more to this "story" than is being revealed. That much should be obvious.
2nd-Regarding this whole smoking deal, ignore all the health aspects and political/media BS associated with it. The fact is humans are the only animals on this earth that VOLUNTARILY put smoke in their bodies. Even a monkey has to be trained to do that.
Just a little food for thought, if it helps anyone.
Apple never said Nicotine causes cancer, they said the computer was "beyond economical repair due to tar from cigarette smoke".
They also said "nicotine is on OSHA's list of hazardous substances and Apple would not require an employee to repair anything deemed hazardous to their health."
They never said cancer, they said hazardous. Nicotine is toxic, exposure to high concentrations can kill people, lower concentrations can cause birth defects. Nicotine can also interfere with your body's natural defenses to cancer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Toxicology
And tar, which was also mentioned by Apple, is a carcinogen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Toxicology
Maybe it was some other lifestyle choice of his like being a Vegan or genetically "in his DNA" so to speak. There are documented smokers that have died a ripe of age but not from lung cancer and some non-smokers that have died at an early age and never smoked a day in their life - Dana Reeve comes to mind.
and you're certain Dana Reeve never had significant exposure to 2nd hand smoke?
This is going to result in a lawsuit Apple is going to lose. I'm not a smoker but give me a break.
It is hard to love a Mac when Apple's politics and business rules are sometime so terrible.
how is Apple going to lose, the warranty is for manufacturing defects and expressly excludes issues due to abuse and neglect.
When the US is spoken of being litigious. That's talking about private litigation between two party's. That's completely different from governmental regulation. Which the US is not the most strict.
The air quality in major cities is not equal to sitting in a closed room with second hand smoke. You are stretching you point a bit thin.
To your first point... can't have litigation without laws and regulation (ie rules)
2nd point... stand on the corner of 42nd street for 8 hours a day 5 days a week for 15 years and come back and tell me it's not the same thing. Just because you can't see it don't mean the chems aren't there. Read some more up on it my friend.
and you're certain Dana Reeve never had significant exposure to 2nd hand smoke?
I think most consider radon gas to be the 2nd most serious risk factor for lung cancer.
But your example is so extreme it's ultimately useless.
2nd point... stand on the corner of 42nd street for 8 hours a day 5 days a week for 15 years and come back and tell me it's not the same thing. Just because you can't see it don't mean the chems aren't there. Read some more up on it my friend.
YES it's possible for someone who smokes WAY TOO MUCH to smoke damage their machine - as photos have been posted to show - if you smoke enough to tar your walls what do you expect to happen to the inside of your electronic devices? If you don't want to smoke less, then either buy a new machine or start smoking outside - computers aren't invulnerable and it would take years for that kind of tar to build up anyway.
However it's not the kind of thing a normal smoker would be afflicted by, I smoke in the same room as my Mac Pro every day (but in all my years of smoking have never smoked more than 10 a day) and there's nothing more than the normal dust build up in my machine.
I very much doubt apple are refusing repairs on a machine that's not been directly damaged as a result of smoke damage on the scale you might find running a machine next to a furnace.
Wrong.
Applecare is not 3 years extended. Applecare is 2 years extended as the first year is by default. So, you're getting 1 year default covered + 2 more years if you purchase Applecare = 3 years.
Dell is having "accidental damage", something which Apple doesn't have.
AppleCare is one year or 3 year extemded. 1+2=3. How about them Apples?
You want modern? OK.
Hybrid rice: Yuan Longping aka "The Father of Hybrid Rice" 1973
computerized laser photocomposition (ie Laser typsetting): Peking University Professor Wang Xuan "the Father of Chinese Language Laser Typesetting" 1974
First synthesized protein (bovine insulin): Wang Yinglai 1966
Compound artemether (Used to treat Malaria that has become resistant to other methods) , in Tu Youyou 1972.
And what part of these advancements run in computers today? The closest you have is laser typesetting from 35 years ago. How about getting on point and finding some modern tech that is currently being sold outside China in today’s CE.
Amazing pics you found there! Disgusting to say the least.
Anyhow, although I don't smoke, and despise second hand smoke (yay for a state law that prohibits smoking inside!) I don't see how Apple can get away with this one. The right thing to do would be to either deny Applecare up front (which may fall into some sort of other legal issue) or to refund the customers their Applecare. Also, can anyone find this stated in the Applecare warranty, and when it was introduced into its legal terms?
Agreed the techs should be safe, but if smoker issues pose that much of a problem, then that part that voids the warranty should be stated up front clearly (unlike how I just phrased this sentence)
I agree. The way they're handling it makes it looks like its trying to sell extended warranty under false pretense and then weasel their way out of them. I wouldn't be surprised at all if this eventually became a class action lawsuit, something that could have been avoided by either listing smoking as voiding the warranty or sending a notice that repairing such things is a health violations and allowing those who smoke or live with those who do to cancel their AppleCare.
I refused service to every single one of these customers.
The white iMacs and iBooks begin to brown and yellow from the tar transferred from a smokers hands. The plastic around screens used to discolor and absorb odor.
Upon opening some Macs, the smell of 'electric cigarettes' would permiate the entire back of house at a store.
Many Mac Geniuses would wear gloves, masks, and goggles when attempting to repair these units.
Even worse... Mac owners with cats or roaches. Cats would rub on the warm computer. Roaches would make the computer their home.
My $.02 about the whole thing... smoking is perfectly legal. I have little issue with individuals who choose to partake in smoking regardless of the well documented risks. However, I have HUGE issue with the fact that most smokers feel like their 'right to smoke' superceded my 'right to not smoke'. The second hand smoke these folks spew is more toxic than the filteredmaterial they breath in by choice.
Even worse, smokers litter our highways, streets, parking lots, and sidewalks with their butts. Odd, I've never met a smoker who uses the ashtray in their car, but I've also never met a smoker who admits to flicking their butts onto the road. How do those butts get there?
The final straw - smokers who have children. The most ironic action I've seen is parents who stop drinking, eating raw fish, drinking caffine, etc while the child is in the womb. Yet, they are perfectly fine with welcoming the young child into their smoke filled home. Oh no wait... they "only smoke outside".. and in the car, and resturants, and while their child sits in their lap outside. "We love our kids, so we try not to smoke around them." "We love snakes, so we lock them up in glass aquariums." "I'm a bird lover, so I clip his wings and keep him in the cage in my home." "We're 'dog people', so we have this 100 lb dog in our apartment." "I'm a cat lover, so I have 40 of them." (a little humor folks)
Smoking in any public place or place of employment is illegal in Ohio - Ohio voters voted in favor of this ban in 2006.
I should have been more precise. Smoking in public where it affects others has been made illegal in many states and countries. Smoking where there is as much interaction with others as there is with the emissions from a car's tailpipe would likely not be affected.
Just quit smoking, it's that simple. Smoking does not do anything for the smoker, so why should anyone who does not smoke work for hours on a product that is potentially hazardous to his or her health.
If you have asthma or in any way allergic to smoking, even buying and reading a used book from a smoking home, can cause you serious health problem. I know a car dealership that charges extra to work on any smoker vehicle.
Quit smoking. The only thing that will happen to you is that you will live longer with less health-related problems. And someone else do not have to suffer because you chose to suffocate your life.
To quote my Doctor recently when I said that I don't smoke- "It's too bad smoking is so bad for you, because it does a lot that is good." That being said, the harm outways the good and people really shouldn't smoke. Still, you should try to be informed before making absolute statements. People who smoke do so because it does do something for them. Have some compassion.
As for the topic of this thread, unless they can show either that the smoking damaged the computer, voiding the warranty, or that the tar is factually harmful, they should fix the computers.
Back when I fixed computers, every great once and a while someone would bring in a computer from a heavy indoor smoking home. You'd open it up and everything inside would be coated with a fuzzy-yet-sticky film of yellow residue (sometimes quite thick). The computer vented the smoke in and it caked over the components and casing inside. It was disgusting.
I refused service to every single one of these customers.
Good for you. I might do the work for them, but I'd charge a premium (and I'd have to invest in a well-ventilated work area).
It's too late. (Trust me, I am no right-wing nut; indeed, far from it).
Neither am I. I'm a repubilcate. I votee on issues. Not the religiom or skin color.
I suggest then you go to the EPA website and look at the stats. Smoking is the least of you concerns. Ironically, the worst is China, where the macs are assembled. Communist too. And Mexico? Like smoking two packs a day that's how bad the air is. I never understood why we dint have a international DO NOT DRIVE DAY. even in Los Angeles I've noticed christmas day to appear the cleanest. No cars on the road. Just make it acgreen paid vacation day, helping the planet become better for us all.
Typed on iPhone.
Just quit smoking, it's that simple. Smoking does not do anything for the smoker, so why should anyone who does not smoke work for hours on a product that is potentially hazardous to his or her health.
If you have asthma or in any way allergic to smoking, even buying and reading a used book from a smoking home, can cause you serious health problem. I know a car dealership that charges extra to work on any smoker vehicle.
Quit smoking. The only thing that will happen to you is that you will live longer with less health-related problems. And someone else do not have to suffer because you chose to suffocate your life.
Still a free country. Where one can do what they want with their own self. Destroy it or meditate until the Apple's fall from the tree's. Your choice.
As to repair rejection... Sorry and sad. I work in Medical IT field. I've been in rooms with CT, MRI and Xray systems running. Dressed in lead. But this is still hazardous. And as much as I hate Dell THEY will replace the system NO QUESTIONS ASKED (as does IBM/Lenovo BTW).
Sorry your iPhone will not be repaired because it was operated in LA where the air quality is less than superb.
Sorry your iPod will not be repaird because it had sugar stickness on it and sugar is bad for you.
What are they gonna do in China? Where the air quality is less than smokers 2nd hand smoke...
It's BS like this I say "Hackintosh's to the rescue!"
Excuse me... I'm going out for a ciggy.
It?s one thing to refuse service because excessive tar actually caused the failure (I?ve seen some disgusting stained walls in smokers? homes). Maybe that can happen, hard as it is to believe.
It?s another to say that no safety gear exists which allows workers to repair the machine safely. I feel certain that a properly-equipped repair tech could work on tobacco-slimed hardware for many years without taking in any of the toxins.
I suppose Apple could say that supplying such gear (and the extra time involved) makes the repair too expensive to cover...
One of many good points being overlooked in the anti-smoker tirades in this thread. The bottom line is simply that there are means to protect workers to OSHA safety regulations, and there are jobs that require exposure (plumbers to sewerage was a good analogy).
(long rant - deleted)
Smoking will be illegal in public in your lifetime probably. Get used to it.
No disagreement - - but as of 2009, it still is both legal as well as conducted by a not-insignificant portion of society. As such, some amount of its presence is within the expected norms of Society - - in other words, within "Normal Wear & Tear" of Warranty langage. Of course, there is the issue still of "Slippery Slope" - - how much is normal versus excessive - - but what this is observing is that the accept/reject limit cannot be set at zero.
One person was allegedly told that the damage was caused by tar buildup from smoking around the machine.
With the keyword here being ALLEGEDLY. I've not noticed any conspicuous mention of the Apple Service ID#, nor any photographs (proof evidence) provided supposedly by Apple. As such, I have my personal doubts as to the legitimacy of the entire claim.
A couple of points:
1) No computer coming in for repair, especially after any length of time, is clean and pristine inside. If being clean is a prerequisite for warranty service, most computers would be denied coverage.
Exactly. Accumulation of some amount of dust/misc is part of normal utilization and is what constitutes "Normal Wear and Tear" that is expected to be accomodated within Warranty Language.
3) Nicotine probably has a very low precipitation rate on surfaces. The gunk in the computer is much more likely tar.
True, but smokers aren't an exctinct species, so their contributions also have to be considered to be part of the default environment that a product will need to be expected to routinely operate in. Ditto for contamination from Pet Dander, Los Angeles Smog, Midwestern Dust Storms, Florida Salt Air, etc.
If a hypothetical computer is for some reason quite highly vulnerable to these sorts of normal environmental hazards bringing it to an overheating halt, then it is a product design flaw ... a failure in having a HEPA-esque filter to be maintained. Afterall, our automobiles have air filters ... and so have there also been air filters on computer equipment - they're just not typically found on our cheap consumer level PCs.
As per Apple's standard hardware Warrantee decrees, i.e., "?This warranty does not apply: (a) to damage caused by use with non-Apple products; (b) to damage caused by accident, abuse, misuse, flood, fire, earthquake or other external causes?, the presence of a sufficient substance to cause the computer to malfunction, is sufficient to negate the service.
Although having a machine come in for service with such visual evidence to conclude that the primary cause of failure is due to using it in a 'smoking' environment of any degree, proclaiming that "?nicotine is on OSHA's list of hazardous substances and Apple would not require an employee to repair anything deemed hazardous to their health." may in part not be totally accurate.
This is dilemma of the 'slippery slope', namely of how much of a "smoke environment" can be considered as constituting "Normal Wear and Tear" (within Society Norms) that can reasonably be expected to be accomodated within Warranty Language.
Certainly, the employees refusal to repair the computer under warranty is perfectly within their rights and Apple's position to protect their employees where it might be deemed a health hazard to any extent is equally valid.
Yes, but not quite: if the health hazard didn't void the Warranty, then the Warranty that was sold to the consumer still must be honored, lest Apple be in breach of contract.
And the business solution here is brutally simple: if the OSHA-required protection levels for the employee are more expensive than the computer, then the Warranty obligation can be fulfilled by hardware replacement instead of hardware repair. Alleged OSHA Problem...Solved!
And FWIW, I don't ever recall AppleCare having an escape clause of "not cost effective to repair" that permits them to completely walk away from the contract. If such language does exist, then I'd never pay for AppleCare.
Keep in mind that some non-smokers can enter a locked 'smoking' room and be unaffected at all. Whereas, others become totally repulsed at even the thought of touching the door nob.
And this is what makes the 'Slippery Slope' problems more acute, particulary as the percentage of our Society that smokes becomes smaller: the current generation simply has no experience with what the levels of smoking used to be like ~30 years ago to really appreciate how relatively begnine they are today. Just consider how few people you see today with the condition of hard yellow fingertips due to the combination of nicotine, tar, and cellular death...
Must be a slow news day.
Perhaps. Until I see Service ID#s and photos of the alledgedly offending hardware, I'm cynically suspicious that this might also be contrived news.
If the damage is caused by smoke buildup then I agree with you, but just because there is a problem with the computer and there is smoke buildup in the system does not necessarily mean that the part that has gone bad did so due to smoke buildup. Even if there is a large amount of smoke buildup in the computer there could be a part that fails due to a manufacturing defect after a year or two of use.
An excellent point: the presence of an accumulation in of itself is not proof of causality.
Quite right, but lack of maintenance, misuse and abuse of a machine trumps most manufacturer?s defects because it?s simply too hard to determine the cause if a machine is in such a state and no warranties for CE do not cover regular cleanings as part of the agreement, which would be required first and foremost before Apple could service most potential defects.
Understood, but there's also a certain marketplace expectation that influences upon whome the Burden of Proof resides. FWIW, this is why I'm suspicious of this report coming out without it being accompanied by photographic evidence as the basis of Apple's denial.
These idiots should have cleaned out their own machine before sending it in, but...
Unfortunately, this suggestion can clearly be a double-edged sword, since sometimes the action of opening the case will void a Warranty.
I think people are being willfully obtuse and blinded by their hatred of smokers. This is where the incessant anti-smoking campaign have taken us--towards absolute hatred and license to screw people.
Do you people not see where this can lead? No one is arguing that if smoke has actually DAMAGED your computer, that counts like any other reason to void a warranty from personal damage. What is however obvious from this "decree" is that if a computer merely "smells" of smoke that Apple deems it a "health hazard" which is beyond ridiculous. This opens the door for Apple to void warranties easily and without proof of anything. A computer may not be damaged at all by smoke residue but if it even has a wiff of left over smoke then they will call that a biohazard and refuse to service your computer.
An excellent point. Personally, if a company tried to pull this sort of BS on me, I'd sue them for a defective product: if its that damn fragile, then where's its integrated HEPA air filter?
I own a mac and live in Oklahoma. Recently the burner stopped working. We have AppleCare so we took it in 2 days ago for repair. We just recieved a call today stating we needed to come get it because they are refusing to work on it due to health hazards from second hand smoke due to OSHA violations.
Sorry, but until I see an Apple Service Tracking ID#, I'm obligated to be cynical...
how is Apple going to lose, the warranty is for manufacturing defects and expressly excludes issues due to abuse and neglect.
But as I said earlier, smoking still is both legal as well as conducted by a not-insignificant portion of society. As such, some amount of its presence is within the expected norms of Society - - in other words, within "Normal Wear & Tear" of Warranty langage.
Of course, there is the issue still of "Slippery Slope" - - how much accumulation is deemed normal versus excessive - - but the accept/reject limit simply cannot be set at zero.
And it doesn't matter if we're talking about smoke residue, lint, pet dander, LA Smog, or Miami salt air accumulations...there are all normal & routine environmental hazards for which the obligation is for the product design to be able to accomodate...afterall, no one's consumer laptop comes with a warning of "USE ONLY IN A CLASS 100 CLEAN ROOM".
-hh