I really want you to go over it line by line. Now anything in there that does not relate to the conflict directly you need not concern yourself with. I will not use it. If there?s anything that?s missing, anything that?s incomplete, anything at all that you find misrepresents events as you know them, I want your comment on. I picked this example because I know you would be most familiar with it, being that you?re from that part of the world. But I need you to be as critical as possible of what was presented in the essay.
[quote] I really want you to go over it line by line. <hr></blockquote>
Please don't waste our time. It looks good to me to so lets just get back on topic.
Question: when will Sharon be up for re-election? Does Israel have a 4 year term or 6?
Also, a poll on jpost showed that Sharon and Netanyahu (ek) are close in support with Sharon at 32% and Netanyahu ath 26% with a error of +/- 4.5% on 501 people.
Also, 72% of Israelis are for the war. I think the interesting part is that 36% want Arafat expelled and 23% want him "eliminated" (why not just say dead?) and only 15% want to negotiate with him again.
On the bright side (sort of), only 15% said that the occupation should be permanent and 42% oppose any form of reoccupation.
What will it take for the US to change these numbers? Is it even possible for Powell to calm things down? Will it take another massacre ala 1982 to turn the support of Israel back to Peace? Who can even tell any more.
So NOW you want the US to change the minds of the Israelis??? Isn't that what the Islamic world are so against the US, they try to infiltrate other cultures? Maybe it's the minds of minds of the Islamic world we need changing. Or is that too un-PC?
thentro, why are you so opposed to Israelis going after the terror infrastructure? They said they?ll need only 3-4 weeks to achieve results. Arafat was given one opportunity after another to do this, and he refused.
The terror massacres occurr on a daily basis. Israelis are being blown up everyday. They have had enough. And they want this stopped now. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? Israelis had given Arafat 10 years to change his his strips. He didn't, he wouldn't, he wont. Israelis drew the correct conclusion that Arafat was, is, and always will be terrorist.
What the polls reflect is the feeling, that for whatever reason, PM Sharon took too long to respond. That the mobilization is too limited. And that Sharon had made promises to Bush that will compromise Israeli security in the future.
mika.
btw. The federal elections in Israel are held every 4 years, unless a no confidence vote passes in the Knesset. In which case they are held earlier. How often are they held in Arab states? Or in the PA?
[quote] So NOW you want the US to change the minds of the Israelis? <hr></blockquote>
I would rather the UN, or the World Media, or myself, but Israel wont listen. The US tends to give sweet deals to the military of Israel too.
Quote:
Isn't that what the Islamic world are so against the US, they try to infiltrate other cultures? <hr></blockquote>
From my viewpoint, the Islamic world feels that there whole culture is threatened by what they see as degrading social values and yes we force issues on them using military action. That is for them to deside. But the world is not attacking Jewish culture, nor are we threatening Israel in any way. Bush is being very, very soft handed in this matter.
[QUOTEMaybe it's the minds of minds of the Islamic world we need changing. Or is that too un-PC? ]
So how will occupation help this in any way shape or form? Do you even care about changing the minds of the "Islamic World"?
[quote] unflummoxed<hr></blockquote>
I love that word
[quote] They said they?ll need only 3-4 weeks to achieve results.<hr></blockquote>
Well we will just have to wait and see wont we. I think only time will tell at this point.
From my viewpoint, the Islamic world feels that there whole culture is threatened by what they see as degrading social values and yes we force issues on them using military action. That is for them to deside. But the world is not attacking Jewish culture, nor are we threatening Israel in any way. Bush is being very, very soft handed in this matter.
The world IS attacking jewish culture. Muslim extremists want the world to be muslim from north pole to south pole and are prepared to kill as many people as possible to reach this goal. Are you ready to be muslim? I'd rather die.
So how will occupation help this in any way shape or form? Do you even care about changing the minds of the "Islamic World"?
It's not my job and I don't really care about the "Islamic world". Their leaders need to stop the propaganda and stop encouraging the killing of innocent people. THAT'S their job. But that's not going to happen anytime soon.
I just read this on the net and thought you guys might find it interesting. Is all american media like this?
Transcript of Ali Abunimah interview on Fox News Channel's Hannity & Colmes, 3 April 2002
COLMES: Welcome back to HANNITY & COLMES. I'm Alan Colmes.
Coming up tonight, why is the pope coming down so hard on the Israelis and does the president's handling of the situation threaten broader support for the war on terror? We'll debate it later. Should drug-sniffing dogs invade our children's schools? Well it's happening in Florida, and we'll debate that. And comedian Jackie Mason will be here.
First, are nations in the Middle East serious about making peace with Israel? Saddam Hussein is offering money for the families of suicide bombers. Iran was recently caught shipping arms to the Palestinian Authority and soldiers have been massing at the Lebanese border. Can the violence ever stop without the cooperation of the rest of the region?
We're joined now by the Vice President of the Arab-American Action Committee, Ali Abunimah. Mr. Abunimah, welcome to the program.
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: ... have to start withdrawing, do you think they have to get out of the territories, there has to be negotiated peace or there's never going to be peace. But let's talk from your standpoint as a member of the Arab-American Action Network, what cope ability is there for the Palestinians? You must condemn these suicide bombers, correct?
ALI ABUNIMAH, ARAB-AMERICAN ACTION NETWORK: Absolutely. The suicide bombings are outrageous. They need to stop immediately, and they should be condemned by everyone.
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: Well how should Israel, then, respond to them?
ABUNIMAH: Well I think we need to be consistent and recognize that three times as many innocent Palestinian civilians have been killed by Israel, deliberately targeted by Israel, nearly 400 of them children. And this has to stop equally, and I don't hear any condemnation of that.
COLMES: All right, you're accusing ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: All I hear is ...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: ... Israel of not just going into the territories and going after the military, but you're accusing them of targeting - of targeting civilians ...
ABUNIMAH: Yes ...
COLMES: ... and children?
ABUNIMAH: ... it's not me accusing them. Every human rights group that has looked into this from Amnesty International, Physicians for Human Rights USA, the Israeli group B'Tselem and countless reports from "The New York Times", "The Washington Post", "Harper's Magazine," all confirm there's a mountain of evidence that Israel deliberately targets civilians.
COLMES: Why do you not speak out as forcibly, though, about Palestinians and those on the Arab side who might do the same thing?
ABUNIMAH: Well didn't you just hear me? I just said that I condemn the suicide bombings, absolutely. They're outrageous. They need to stop immediately. I condemn that completely. I don't know why you're saying I don't.
COLMES: Well it seems that I often hear Arab groups talking about the atrocities, the Israelis, you believe perpetuate, but it would have a lot of credibility if you spoke equally about the atrocities on the other side because there are atrocities on both sides.
ABUNIMAH: Well I just said it - now I've said it twice in the space of a minute. But I - what I don't hear, I don't hear from President Bush, I don't hear from you any condemnation. It seems like you don't care that three times as many Palestinians have been killed, targeted -- deliberately targeted for killing by Israel, that it's open season on Palestinians and the occupied territories. I mean what we're supposed to believe is that 400 Israelis have been killed by deliberate malicious murder, and yet three times as many Palestinians have somehow just dropped dead on their own.
COLMES: Look I ...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: ... care and I absolutely ...
ABUNIMAH: I don't understand ...
COLMES: ... as I've said over and over again ...
ABUNIMAH: ... the double standard.
COLMES: ... that Israel should get out of those territories.
ABUNIMAH: Yes and you know Israel claims it's defending itself. We just heard that, but I'll tell you one thing, self defense does not include keeping tens of thousands of soldiers outside your borders in someone else's land, ruling over millions of people by military dictatorship, the worst possible form of tyranny ...
COLMES: You know Mr. ...
ABUNIMAH: ... taking away their land and giving it to armed settlers. That's aggression. That's colonialism, it's not self-defense.
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: I'm going to -- can you hear me? Look, first of all, what you just said is so factually inaccurate, so false, so defamatory, I'm not even going to address it. But for the sake of ...
ABUNIMAH: Well why don't you ...
HANNITY: ... our audience ...
ABUNIMAH: ... address it?
HANNITY: I'm going to tell them ...
ABUNIMAH: Why don't you address it?
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: Why don't you address it?
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: Because it's absolutely true.
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: Because what you're -- what you're ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: It's absolutely true.
HANNITY: All right.
ABUNIMAH: Look, the United States, Colin Powell said it last November the occupation has to end.
HANNITY: He's never said it.
ABUNIMAH: Kofi Annan, the U.N. secretary-general, just said Israel's illegal occupation has to end. The whole world is saying it, even the Pope ...
HANNITY: Can I ask you a question?
ABUNIMAH: ... even the pope.
HANNITY: Am I -- wait ...
ABUNIMAH: ... condemned Israel's ...
HANNITY: Ali ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... Ali, can you hear me?
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: Can you hear me?
ABUNIMAH: Are you saying the Pope is wrong? I can hear you.
HANNITY: All right, don't filibuster please. I'll ask some questions, you can give us some answers. I'll give you adequate time to answer. You know, but look, in the 1970s King Hussein unleashed a war against Palestinians, 1970 ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... can I finish ...
ABUNIMAH: What has this got to do with anything?
HANNITY: Ali ...
ABUNIMAH: I mean ...
HANNITY: Ali ...
ABUNIMAH: .. you just don't ...
HANNITY: ... can I ...
ABUNIMAH: ... want to talk about ...
HANNITY: ... can I -- can I ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... can I finish because ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: Yes, you don't want to talk about the fact that there is an Israeli military dictatorship 35 years of in the occupied territories.
HANNITY: Ali ...
ABUNIMAH: You don't want to talk about it.
HANNITY: ... I'm going to ask you one more time respectively, let me get my question out, let me get my statement out and for the sake of our audience as politely as I can ask you, I'm going to ask ...
ABUNIMAH: Yes.
HANNITY: ... you need to be quiet until I'm finished, and then I'll give you a chance to respond. We understand each other? OK. Here's what I want to point out to you, in the 1970s King Hussein in Jordan unleashed a civil war against the Palestinian in his - in this country because he was concerned that his regime was about to toppled. There are over 100,000 casualties at that time. The Egyptians, the Saudis, Iranians, you know, they condemn the actions - did they? No, they didn't at the point and when he died, he was ...
ABUNIMAH: Well ...
HANNITY: ... considered -- let me finish, he was considered a moderate leader at the time. If you go back and look at other, you know, history in the region, you see similarly a lot of things happen there. And that's the point - you want to talk about occupation being the main thing, but we're dealing specifically with targeted attacks against women and children ...
ABUNIMAH: Absolutely ...
HANNITY: ... which is not happening ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: ... by the ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: Well no - well that's where you're wrong. I mean, as I just said ...
HANNITY: No, I'm right.
ABUNIMAH: ... there's an mountain of evidence - look, what you're - let me give one example out of 1,200 examples. On November 22nd last year, the Israelis planted a bomb in Khan Yunis refugee camp in the Gaza Strip. It blew up and killed five school children on their way to school in the middle of a residential area, and there are literally hundreds of examples like that. None of them have been investigated by the Israelis, and what you're doing by denying this mountain of evidence ...
HANNITY: Mr. Ali ...
ABUNIMAH: ... is the intellectual equivalence ...
HANNITY: ... I'm going to say this as respectively as I can for our audience ...
ABUNIMAH: Look you ...
HANNITY: ... you are ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... I'm saying this as respectively as I can. You are right now on this program spewing misinformation and propaganda inaccuracies and things ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... that are not true.
ABUNIMAH: You know ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: You are accusing Israel ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... of being a terrorist nation ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... when they themselves are the victims of terror.
ABUNIMAH: Well you know obviously you didn't listen to a word I said because I condemned ...
HANNITY: I heard everything you said.
ABUNIMAH: ... the suicide bombings three times. Now you're saying that somehow I am condoning it.
HANNITY: I'm saying ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... when you said that Israel is a terrorist nation ...
ABUNIMAH: I didn't ...
HANNITY: ... when you say they target children ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: ... I didn't say that.
HANNITY: ... and when you point out that they killed ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... it is for the sake of our audience so that they get a fair and balance view, the - I am telling you that it is an inaccuracy and what's happening here ...
ABUNIMAH: Well all they have to do ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: And what you're doing by saying ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... that is you're creating - quote - "justification" for the terror that we're watching unfold ...
ABUNIMAH: We can ...
HANNITY: ... before our eyes now.
ABUNIMAH: ... we can settle this right now Sean. All your viewers need to do is go onto the Web sites of Amnesty International, even the State ...
HANNITY: A left wing ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... group like Amnesty International, sir, is hardly a ...
ABUNIMAH: Yes there's always excuses ...
HANNITY: ... hardly a credible source for anybody ...
ABUNIMAH: What you're doing - what you're doing is the intellectual equivalent of holocaust denial, which means taking a mountain of evidence and denying it simply because you hate a certain ...
HANNITY: Sir ...
ABUNIMAH: ... group of people.
HANNITY: ... wait a minute - I got to address ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... sir, sir ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: Sir, sir ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... I - sir - let me - let me ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: Sir ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... don't insult me personally. I didn't insult you personally. But let me tell you one thing I do disagree with you on, I hate ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... all right here's my ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... here's my agenda.
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: My agenda is we're watching unfold every night on TV innocent men, women and children targeted and ...
ABUNIMAH: Yes but you don't care ...
HANNITY: .. while you say ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: .. . condemn it, you come up with misinformation to justify it.
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: Well look ...
HANNITY: ... and that's what's morally ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: You know the great thing is that your viewers don't have to believe me. They can go to the State Department Web site, Physicians for Human Rights USA ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: ... even the Israeli Human Rights group B'Tselem ...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: Would you acknowledge Ali ...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: ... that ...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: Let me - let me - we only have a moment left. Would you acknowledge that Yasser Arafat cannot bring peace? He has not done what he needs to do to bring peace to the region. He eventually has to be replaced. There has to be somebody else who could take that job.
ABUNIMAH: Oh this is a complete Red Herring. Look, when Yasser Arafat is six feet under, the Israelis will still be out there on the TV screens blaming him for giving orders from beyond the grave. This is about Israel's military tyranny and the occupied territory, something that you will do anything to avoid talking about.
[b]COLMES:[B] Well not me ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: Because ...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: I - look - not me ...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: Look ...
ABUNIMAH: Yes I give you credit ...
COLMES: First of all Ali ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: I give you credit ...
COLMES: ... I condemn what Sharon has done, but on the other hand, I don't think the Palestinians have shown any leadership either. They don't have anybody (UNINTELLIGIBLE) negotiate a peace or convince...
ABUNIMAH: Well you know that's not ...
COLMES: ... their people to accept the peace.
ABUNIMAH: ... look, that's just not true. The Palestinians negotiated beyond Camp David all the way to Taba. They were apparently making progress until Ehud Barak broke it off and since then the Israeli government has absolutely refused to negotiate. This evening one of your competitor networks is reporting that President Bush requested that Anthony Zinni be allowed to see Yasser Arafat and Sharon refused. So we have the - we have Israel standing in the way of the United States ...
COLMES: Frankly ...
ABUNIMAH: ... efforts to end this conflict.
COLMES: ... many people believe the United States ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: Israel isn't interested in ...
COLMES: Mr. Abunimah, many people believe ...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: ... hold on - hold on a second. We don't have a dialogue here.
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: And it wants to throw the Palestinians into the desert ...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: Many people believe that we should send a higher-level official than Zinni, that Colin Powell or somebody of like stature should go ...
ABUNIMAH: I agree with that.
COLMES: ... and I think that's ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: I agree - I agree with you 100 percent. What we need is the United States to recognize - you know the United States thinks it's being a friend for Israel - I'll tell you what kind of friend it is ...
COLMES: You have 10 seconds.
ABUNIMAH: ... it's the kind of friend that gets you drunk, gets you high, gives you the keys to the car and says go out and have fun.
COLMES: All right.
ABUNIMAH: That's the kind of friend the United States is for Israel.
COLMES: We have to part company. Thank you for being with us tonight. Coming up, the Pope is criticizing Israel and some people in Europe blame the U.S. for not doing more. Has U.S. lost support of its allies overseas? Former NATO Ambassador Robert Hunter will be here when we come back.
Later, are schools turning into a police state? We'll debate that later as well.
(sorry for the amount of reading I'm puttting on you... )
A PEACE PROPOSAL FOR THE MIDDLE EAST
By Johan Galtung and Dietrich Fischer August 1, 2001
An Israeli proverb says, "the only way to get rid of your enemies is to make them your friends." That is not happening now.Â* For Israel and Palestine there is no security at the end of this road of violence, only increased violence and insecurity.
Israel is now in the most dangerous period of its history: increasingly militarist, fighting unwinnable wars, increasingly isolated and with ever more enemies, exposed to violence, non- violent resistance and boycotts from within and without. Sooner or later, the USA will make support conditional on concessions. The situation is reminiscent of what South Africa faced from inside and outside before the end of Apartheid.
** Israel's moral capital is rapidly depreciating, is probably negative in most countries, slowly also changing in the USA;
** Israel is essentially ruled by the military, offering the electorate a choice of generals with limited agendas;
** Israeli violence and intransigence mobilize resistance and struggle in the Arab and Muslim worlds, if not in the sense of inter-state warfare then in the postmodern sense of terrorism against Israeli state-terrorism. Highly motivated volunteers willing to enter this struggle are in unlimited supply;
** Sooner or later this will include some of the 18% Israeli Arabs;
** Sooner or later this may lead to massive nonviolent struggle, like 100,000 Arab women in black marching on Israel;
** An economic boycott of Israel may come, like for South Africa initiated by non-governmental organizations, followed by local authorities and then national governments. Like in South Africa, it may be more important morally than economically;
** Again like for South Africa, US policy may change:
-economically Israel is becoming a liability, given the importance of access to Arab oil and trade with oil-rich countries for the USA, as the Arab countries are no longer willing to see the USA as an impartial third party. Boycotts and pressure to disinvest may follow.
-militarily Israel may commit the USA to a highly ambiguous war, and bases are available elsewhere (Turkey, Kosova, Macedonia);
-politically Israel is a liability in the UN. The EU and NATO allies may not legitimize violent intervention. At some point down the present path, the USA may prefer a reasonable agreement to supporting a loser, as it had earlier abandoned the Shah of Iran and President Marcos of the Philippines.
Clearly, colossal mistakes are being made also by Palestinians and their leadership, as people do when pressed against a wall.Â* The issue is not simply to allocate blame, that will not bring a solution, but to offer better alternatives.
Could the following peace package be more attractive to reasonable people?
[1] Palestine is recognized as a state following UN Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, with the borders existing on 4 June 1967, with small land exchanges;
[2] East Jerusalem becomes the capital of Palestine;
[3] A Middle East Community with Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria as full members, with water, arms, trade regimes based on multilateral consensus; and an Organization for Security and Cooperation in the Middle East with a broader base, analogous to the highly successful OSCE in Europe.
[4] This Community is supported by the EU, Nordic Community and ASEAN financially and for institution-building expertise;
[5] Egypt and Jordan lease additional land to Palestine;
[6] Israel and Palestine become federations with two Israeli cantons in Palestine and two Palestinian cantons in Israel;
[7] The two neighbor capitals become a city confederation, also host to major regional, UN and ecumenical institutions;
[8] The right of return also to Israel is accepted in principle, numbers to be negotiated within the canton formula;
[9] Israel and Palestine have joint and equitable mutually beneficial economic ventures, joint peace education and joint border patrolling;
[10] Massive stationing of UN monitoring forces.
[11] Sooner or later a Truth and Reconciliation process. Mediating a peace package should not be a country, or a group of countries, but a respected person or a group of such persons.
In the present climate of violence and mutual hatred, such peaceful cooperation seems hard to imagine. But down the road, as the costs of violence mount for both sides, there will come a time when a fair and reasonable outcome, recognizing the human rights of all, is perceived as preferable by enough people to make it happen.Â* In 1944, few people could have foreseen the close cooperation between Germany and France today, and after the Soviet Union shot down a Korean airliner over Sakhalin in 1983, few could imagine Gorbachev's perestroika only two years later, which soon led to an end of the Cold War.
What is needed to escape from the present quagmire is a clearly articulated, attractive vision of a better future.
Johan Galtung, a Professor of Peace Studies, is Director of TRANSCEND, a peace and development network. Dietrich Fischer, a Professor at Pace University, is Co-director of TRANSCEND.
Siting a similarity between South Africa and Israel is total crap. It's lazy minded anti-Jew Euro-speak. The entire Arab world is funding terrorist to destroy Israel with the idea of either pushing them into the sea or the gas chambers and somehow when Israel tries to go after the Arafat's terrorist they only way they can this is like apartheid in South Africa?
<strong>Also, 72% of Israelis are for the war. I think the interesting part is that 36% want Arafat expelled and 23% want him "eliminated" (why not just say dead?) and only 15% want to negotiate with him again.
...
What will it take for the US to change these numbers? Is it even possible for Powell to calm things down? Will it take another massacre ala 1982 to turn the support of Israel back to Peace?</strong><hr></blockquote>? It's astounding to me that even 15% want to negotiate with Arafat. How many Americans want to negotiate with bin Laden? Yes, bin Laden = Arafat. Arafat probably didn't oversee the terrorism, but I doubt bin Laden did, either. They don't give direct, hands-on support, they provide indirect support with their rhetoric. They're both leaders of groups of terrorists. And no, Israel's actions aren't terrorism. Terrorism is specifically targeting civilians in order to demoralize. The last intifadeh did primarily target Israeli military - this one is focused on civilians.
? It's also astounding to me that only 72% support defending themselves militarily, when they were being blown up almost daily.
? And why in the world is it up to the US to change the numbers?
[quote] It's astounding to me that even 15% want to negotiate with Arafat. How many Americans want to negotiate with bin Laden? Yes, bin Laden = Arafat.<hr></blockquote>
Well since the israelis probably know a lot more about wath the situation REALLY is like. Those 15% tells me that Arafat is not OBL...
[quote]It's also astounding to me that only 72% support defending themselves militarily, when they were being blown up almost daily. <hr></blockquote>
Again, 28% may be seeing that Israel is doing more than actually defending itself...
[quote] Siting a similarity between South Africa and Israel is total crap. It's lazy minded anti-Jew Euro-speak. <hr></blockquote>
No it's not. Especially when your speaking of conflict resolution... SA is an example for everyone to follow, when it comes to settling old, bitter conflicts in a peaceful manner...
Wouldn't you rather see a peaceful solution, Scott? (Anyway, welcome back to the discussion. Thought we'd lost you there for a while...)
About the H&C interview: they totally lost control of that interview. They basically let this anti-Jew propaganda spewing nimrod have his say without letting any questions come through. Plus it tells a lot about a person when they monopolize an entire segment with out letting anyone else talk. H&C are not that good IMO.
You?re forgetting about the Arabs population in Israel and their corrosive effect on Israeli politics and this poll. When a 70% figure is shown, what it really means 100% of Israeli Jews.
qoute
(CROSSTALK)
What strikes me is how well Mr. ABUNIMAH has managed to learn his 5 second sound bites. The Israeli-Arab conflict is a VERY complex conflict. It involves many outside factors and is extremely multilayered. To even try to address this in the kind of platform advanced by CROSSTALK is just stupid. However, the show does give a glimpse how inadequate and unsophisticated the Israeli propaganda compared to the Arabs is. This is something Israel ready needs to address. Even watching their official spokespeople, frankly, is quite painful. They can hardy put a coherent sentence together - in English.
And New, like I said earlier, there is no moral equivalency between Israel and the Arabs in this conflict. There never was and never will be. Your malicious attempts to show otherwise just expose you for what you really are. But I suppose you?ll claim innocence and hide behind the claim of neutrality. But would you also claim moral equivalency between the German bombing of London and the British bombing of Dresden, or the Japanese bombing of Perl Harbour and the American bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? I certainly would not.
quote:
An Israeli proverb says, "the only way to get rid of your enemies is to make them your friends."
That is slanderous! I lived in Israel a long time now and NEVER even heard something like this. Why even bother with this guy? Is he one of your country mates New?
quote:
Israel is now in the most dangerous period of its history: increasingly militarist, fighting unwinnable wars, increasingly isolated and with ever more enemies, exposed to violence, non- violent resistance and boycotts from within and without. Sooner or later, the USA will make support conditional on concessions.
heheh ? was there a time in Israel?s history when this statement was not seemingly true? If anything, I think the Arabs know that the writing is on the wall. Their percentage of world oil production has been on the decline. It?s only a matter of time before their influence becomes non-existent. Maybe that was the reason for their latest statements out of Beirut? Do you think not?
quote:
Israel's moral capital is rapidly depreciating..
Perception is NOT reality, although some would argue different.
Quote:
Israel is essentially ruled by the military
heheh? where did you get this guy? Almost every Israeli citizen is in the army. It?s an army of citizens. (The exception by enlarge being Israeli Arabs, and ultra orthodox yeshiva students). If you?re an Israeli Jew who has lived in Israel long enough, chances are that your military rank would reflect that.
Quote:
Sooner or later this will include some of the 18% Israeli Arabs
The number is now outdated, but I essentially agree. Get rid of them now. And the U.S. should do the same. They?re ticking time bomb. But let the European keep their Arabs and Moslem. I?d like to have a good laugh in 20-30 years.
quote:
Sooner or later this may lead to massive nonviolent struggle, like 100,000 Arab women in black marching on Israel
Already happened. And it wasn?t non-violent.
quote:
An economic boycott of Israel may come
I hope so. The only thing to fear is fear itself. Israel needs to free itself from outside influence and get the job done right.
quote:
economically Israel is becoming a liability
heheh ? tell that to the arms dealers.
quote:
Kosova
This guy learned his propaganda well. That?s how the Muslims refer to Kosovo.
quote:
politically Israel is a liability in the UN
heheh? that?s just too funny.
A colossal mistake would be for Israel to align itself with the Moslem world and civilization. It is backwards and intolerant. And it offers nothing but poverty of mind, spirit, and material.
The American media is completely enamored with the Israeli side of the issue, yes, but please don't equate FoxNews commentators with all American media.
FoxNews commentators are entertainers first and dipshits second, and after that they are trolls and then maybe real journalists.
Comments
from what I read it seemed to me that he worked or lived in a settlement... But I could be wrong... I'll have to read it again...
Even though I could comment on small flaws everywhere in the document...
Please do. And be as extensive as possible.
mika.
I have to say that on the whole it gives a pretty good and ballanced version of what happend...
So we can leave it at that can't we? What did you think of it?
mika.
[ 04-05-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
Please don't waste our time. It looks good to me to so lets just get back on topic.
Question: when will Sharon be up for re-election? Does Israel have a 4 year term or 6?
Also, a poll on jpost showed that Sharon and Netanyahu (ek) are close in support with Sharon at 32% and Netanyahu ath 26% with a error of +/- 4.5% on 501 people.
Also, 72% of Israelis are for the war. I think the interesting part is that 36% want Arafat expelled and 23% want him "eliminated" (why not just say dead?) and only 15% want to negotiate with him again.
On the bright side (sort of), only 15% said that the occupation should be permanent and 42% oppose any form of reoccupation.
What will it take for the US to change these numbers? Is it even possible for Powell to calm things down? Will it take another massacre ala 1982 to turn the support of Israel back to Peace? Who can even tell any more.
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
yer sharing IQ's with someone ain't ya Outsider?
unflummoxed,
cuss
[ 04-05-2002: Message edited by: little cuss ]</p>
The terror massacres occurr on a daily basis. Israelis are being blown up everyday. They have had enough. And they want this stopped now. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? Israelis had given Arafat 10 years to change his his strips. He didn't, he wouldn't, he wont. Israelis drew the correct conclusion that Arafat was, is, and always will be terrorist.
What the polls reflect is the feeling, that for whatever reason, PM Sharon took too long to respond. That the mobilization is too limited. And that Sharon had made promises to Bush that will compromise Israeli security in the future.
mika.
btw. The federal elections in Israel are held every 4 years, unless a no confidence vote passes in the Knesset. In which case they are held earlier. How often are they held in Arab states? Or in the PA?
I would rather the UN, or the World Media, or myself, but Israel wont listen. The US tends to give sweet deals to the military of Israel too.
Isn't that what the Islamic world are so against the US, they try to infiltrate other cultures? <hr></blockquote>
From my viewpoint, the Islamic world feels that there whole culture is threatened by what they see as degrading social values and yes we force issues on them using military action. That is for them to deside. But the world is not attacking Jewish culture, nor are we threatening Israel in any way. Bush is being very, very soft handed in this matter.
[QUOTEMaybe it's the minds of minds of the Islamic world we need changing. Or is that too un-PC? ]
So how will occupation help this in any way shape or form? Do you even care about changing the minds of the "Islamic World"?
[quote] unflummoxed<hr></blockquote>
I love that word
[quote] They said they?ll need only 3-4 weeks to achieve results.<hr></blockquote>
Well we will just have to wait and see wont we. I think only time will tell at this point.
The world IS attacking jewish culture. Muslim extremists want the world to be muslim from north pole to south pole and are prepared to kill as many people as possible to reach this goal. Are you ready to be muslim? I'd rather die.
So how will occupation help this in any way shape or form? Do you even care about changing the minds of the "Islamic World"?
It's not my job and I don't really care about the "Islamic world". Their leaders need to stop the propaganda and stop encouraging the killing of innocent people. THAT'S their job. But that's not going to happen anytime soon.
Transcript of Ali Abunimah interview on Fox News Channel's Hannity & Colmes, 3 April 2002
COLMES: Welcome back to HANNITY & COLMES. I'm Alan Colmes.
Coming up tonight, why is the pope coming down so hard on the Israelis and does the president's handling of the situation threaten broader support for the war on terror? We'll debate it later. Should drug-sniffing dogs invade our children's schools? Well it's happening in Florida, and we'll debate that. And comedian Jackie Mason will be here.
First, are nations in the Middle East serious about making peace with Israel? Saddam Hussein is offering money for the families of suicide bombers. Iran was recently caught shipping arms to the Palestinian Authority and soldiers have been massing at the Lebanese border. Can the violence ever stop without the cooperation of the rest of the region?
We're joined now by the Vice President of the Arab-American Action Committee, Ali Abunimah. Mr. Abunimah, welcome to the program.
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: ... have to start withdrawing, do you think they have to get out of the territories, there has to be negotiated peace or there's never going to be peace. But let's talk from your standpoint as a member of the Arab-American Action Network, what cope ability is there for the Palestinians? You must condemn these suicide bombers, correct?
ALI ABUNIMAH, ARAB-AMERICAN ACTION NETWORK: Absolutely. The suicide bombings are outrageous. They need to stop immediately, and they should be condemned by everyone.
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: Well how should Israel, then, respond to them?
ABUNIMAH: Well I think we need to be consistent and recognize that three times as many innocent Palestinian civilians have been killed by Israel, deliberately targeted by Israel, nearly 400 of them children. And this has to stop equally, and I don't hear any condemnation of that.
COLMES: All right, you're accusing ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: All I hear is ...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: ... Israel of not just going into the territories and going after the military, but you're accusing them of targeting - of targeting civilians ...
ABUNIMAH: Yes ...
COLMES: ... and children?
ABUNIMAH: ... it's not me accusing them. Every human rights group that has looked into this from Amnesty International, Physicians for Human Rights USA, the Israeli group B'Tselem and countless reports from "The New York Times", "The Washington Post", "Harper's Magazine," all confirm there's a mountain of evidence that Israel deliberately targets civilians.
COLMES: Why do you not speak out as forcibly, though, about Palestinians and those on the Arab side who might do the same thing?
ABUNIMAH: Well didn't you just hear me? I just said that I condemn the suicide bombings, absolutely. They're outrageous. They need to stop immediately. I condemn that completely. I don't know why you're saying I don't.
COLMES: Well it seems that I often hear Arab groups talking about the atrocities, the Israelis, you believe perpetuate, but it would have a lot of credibility if you spoke equally about the atrocities on the other side because there are atrocities on both sides.
ABUNIMAH: Well I just said it - now I've said it twice in the space of a minute. But I - what I don't hear, I don't hear from President Bush, I don't hear from you any condemnation. It seems like you don't care that three times as many Palestinians have been killed, targeted -- deliberately targeted for killing by Israel, that it's open season on Palestinians and the occupied territories. I mean what we're supposed to believe is that 400 Israelis have been killed by deliberate malicious murder, and yet three times as many Palestinians have somehow just dropped dead on their own.
COLMES: Look I ...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: ... care and I absolutely ...
ABUNIMAH: I don't understand ...
COLMES: ... as I've said over and over again ...
ABUNIMAH: ... the double standard.
COLMES: ... that Israel should get out of those territories.
ABUNIMAH: Yes and you know Israel claims it's defending itself. We just heard that, but I'll tell you one thing, self defense does not include keeping tens of thousands of soldiers outside your borders in someone else's land, ruling over millions of people by military dictatorship, the worst possible form of tyranny ...
COLMES: You know Mr. ...
ABUNIMAH: ... taking away their land and giving it to armed settlers. That's aggression. That's colonialism, it's not self-defense.
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: I'm going to -- can you hear me? Look, first of all, what you just said is so factually inaccurate, so false, so defamatory, I'm not even going to address it. But for the sake of ...
ABUNIMAH: Well why don't you ...
HANNITY: ... our audience ...
ABUNIMAH: ... address it?
HANNITY: I'm going to tell them ...
ABUNIMAH: Why don't you address it?
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: Why don't you address it?
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: Because it's absolutely true.
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: Because what you're -- what you're ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: It's absolutely true.
HANNITY: All right.
ABUNIMAH: Look, the United States, Colin Powell said it last November the occupation has to end.
HANNITY: He's never said it.
ABUNIMAH: Kofi Annan, the U.N. secretary-general, just said Israel's illegal occupation has to end. The whole world is saying it, even the Pope ...
HANNITY: Can I ask you a question?
ABUNIMAH: ... even the pope.
HANNITY: Am I -- wait ...
ABUNIMAH: ... condemned Israel's ...
HANNITY: Ali ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... Ali, can you hear me?
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: Can you hear me?
ABUNIMAH: Are you saying the Pope is wrong? I can hear you.
HANNITY: All right, don't filibuster please. I'll ask some questions, you can give us some answers. I'll give you adequate time to answer. You know, but look, in the 1970s King Hussein unleashed a war against Palestinians, 1970 ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... can I finish ...
ABUNIMAH: What has this got to do with anything?
HANNITY: Ali ...
ABUNIMAH: I mean ...
HANNITY: Ali ...
ABUNIMAH: .. you just don't ...
HANNITY: ... can I ...
ABUNIMAH: ... want to talk about ...
HANNITY: ... can I -- can I ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... can I finish because ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: Yes, you don't want to talk about the fact that there is an Israeli military dictatorship 35 years of in the occupied territories.
HANNITY: Ali ...
ABUNIMAH: You don't want to talk about it.
HANNITY: ... I'm going to ask you one more time respectively, let me get my question out, let me get my statement out and for the sake of our audience as politely as I can ask you, I'm going to ask ...
ABUNIMAH: Yes.
HANNITY: ... you need to be quiet until I'm finished, and then I'll give you a chance to respond. We understand each other? OK. Here's what I want to point out to you, in the 1970s King Hussein in Jordan unleashed a civil war against the Palestinian in his - in this country because he was concerned that his regime was about to toppled. There are over 100,000 casualties at that time. The Egyptians, the Saudis, Iranians, you know, they condemn the actions - did they? No, they didn't at the point and when he died, he was ...
ABUNIMAH: Well ...
HANNITY: ... considered -- let me finish, he was considered a moderate leader at the time. If you go back and look at other, you know, history in the region, you see similarly a lot of things happen there. And that's the point - you want to talk about occupation being the main thing, but we're dealing specifically with targeted attacks against women and children ...
ABUNIMAH: Absolutely ...
HANNITY: ... which is not happening ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: ... by the ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: Well no - well that's where you're wrong. I mean, as I just said ...
HANNITY: No, I'm right.
ABUNIMAH: ... there's an mountain of evidence - look, what you're - let me give one example out of 1,200 examples. On November 22nd last year, the Israelis planted a bomb in Khan Yunis refugee camp in the Gaza Strip. It blew up and killed five school children on their way to school in the middle of a residential area, and there are literally hundreds of examples like that. None of them have been investigated by the Israelis, and what you're doing by denying this mountain of evidence ...
HANNITY: Mr. Ali ...
ABUNIMAH: ... is the intellectual equivalence ...
HANNITY: ... I'm going to say this as respectively as I can for our audience ...
ABUNIMAH: Look you ...
HANNITY: ... you are ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... I'm saying this as respectively as I can. You are right now on this program spewing misinformation and propaganda inaccuracies and things ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... that are not true.
ABUNIMAH: You know ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: You are accusing Israel ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... of being a terrorist nation ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... when they themselves are the victims of terror.
ABUNIMAH: Well you know obviously you didn't listen to a word I said because I condemned ...
HANNITY: I heard everything you said.
ABUNIMAH: ... the suicide bombings three times. Now you're saying that somehow I am condoning it.
HANNITY: I'm saying ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... when you said that Israel is a terrorist nation ...
ABUNIMAH: I didn't ...
HANNITY: ... when you say they target children ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: ... I didn't say that.
HANNITY: ... and when you point out that they killed ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... it is for the sake of our audience so that they get a fair and balance view, the - I am telling you that it is an inaccuracy and what's happening here ...
ABUNIMAH: Well all they have to do ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: And what you're doing by saying ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... that is you're creating - quote - "justification" for the terror that we're watching unfold ...
ABUNIMAH: We can ...
HANNITY: ... before our eyes now.
ABUNIMAH: ... we can settle this right now Sean. All your viewers need to do is go onto the Web sites of Amnesty International, even the State ...
HANNITY: A left wing ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... group like Amnesty International, sir, is hardly a ...
ABUNIMAH: Yes there's always excuses ...
HANNITY: ... hardly a credible source for anybody ...
ABUNIMAH: What you're doing - what you're doing is the intellectual equivalent of holocaust denial, which means taking a mountain of evidence and denying it simply because you hate a certain ...
HANNITY: Sir ...
ABUNIMAH: ... group of people.
HANNITY: ... wait a minute - I got to address ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... sir, sir ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: Sir, sir ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... I - sir - let me - let me ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: Sir ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... don't insult me personally. I didn't insult you personally. But let me tell you one thing I do disagree with you on, I hate ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... all right here's my ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: ... here's my agenda.
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: My agenda is we're watching unfold every night on TV innocent men, women and children targeted and ...
ABUNIMAH: Yes but you don't care ...
HANNITY: .. while you say ...
(CROSSTALK)
HANNITY: .. . condemn it, you come up with misinformation to justify it.
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: Well look ...
HANNITY: ... and that's what's morally ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: You know the great thing is that your viewers don't have to believe me. They can go to the State Department Web site, Physicians for Human Rights USA ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: ... even the Israeli Human Rights group B'Tselem ...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: Would you acknowledge Ali ...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: ... that ...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: Let me - let me - we only have a moment left. Would you acknowledge that Yasser Arafat cannot bring peace? He has not done what he needs to do to bring peace to the region. He eventually has to be replaced. There has to be somebody else who could take that job.
ABUNIMAH: Oh this is a complete Red Herring. Look, when Yasser Arafat is six feet under, the Israelis will still be out there on the TV screens blaming him for giving orders from beyond the grave. This is about Israel's military tyranny and the occupied territory, something that you will do anything to avoid talking about.
[b]COLMES:[B] Well not me ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: Because ...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: I - look - not me ...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: Look ...
ABUNIMAH: Yes I give you credit ...
COLMES: First of all Ali ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: I give you credit ...
COLMES: ... I condemn what Sharon has done, but on the other hand, I don't think the Palestinians have shown any leadership either. They don't have anybody (UNINTELLIGIBLE) negotiate a peace or convince...
ABUNIMAH: Well you know that's not ...
COLMES: ... their people to accept the peace.
ABUNIMAH: ... look, that's just not true. The Palestinians negotiated beyond Camp David all the way to Taba. They were apparently making progress until Ehud Barak broke it off and since then the Israeli government has absolutely refused to negotiate. This evening one of your competitor networks is reporting that President Bush requested that Anthony Zinni be allowed to see Yasser Arafat and Sharon refused. So we have the - we have Israel standing in the way of the United States ...
COLMES: Frankly ...
ABUNIMAH: ... efforts to end this conflict.
COLMES: ... many people believe the United States ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: Israel isn't interested in ...
COLMES: Mr. Abunimah, many people believe ...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: ... hold on - hold on a second. We don't have a dialogue here.
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: And it wants to throw the Palestinians into the desert ...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: Many people believe that we should send a higher-level official than Zinni, that Colin Powell or somebody of like stature should go ...
ABUNIMAH: I agree with that.
COLMES: ... and I think that's ...
(CROSSTALK)
ABUNIMAH: I agree - I agree with you 100 percent. What we need is the United States to recognize - you know the United States thinks it's being a friend for Israel - I'll tell you what kind of friend it is ...
COLMES: You have 10 seconds.
ABUNIMAH: ... it's the kind of friend that gets you drunk, gets you high, gives you the keys to the car and says go out and have fun.
COLMES: All right.
ABUNIMAH: That's the kind of friend the United States is for Israel.
COLMES: We have to part company. Thank you for being with us tonight. Coming up, the Pope is criticizing Israel and some people in Europe blame the U.S. for not doing more. Has U.S. lost support of its allies overseas? Former NATO Ambassador Robert Hunter will be here when we come back.
Later, are schools turning into a police state? We'll debate that later as well.
[ends]
(sorry for the amount of reading I'm puttting on you...
A PEACE PROPOSAL FOR THE MIDDLE EAST
By Johan Galtung and Dietrich Fischer August 1, 2001
An Israeli proverb says, "the only way to get rid of your enemies is to make them your friends." That is not happening now.Â* For Israel and Palestine there is no security at the end of this road of violence, only increased violence and insecurity.
Israel is now in the most dangerous period of its history: increasingly militarist, fighting unwinnable wars, increasingly isolated and with ever more enemies, exposed to violence, non- violent resistance and boycotts from within and without. Sooner or later, the USA will make support conditional on concessions. The situation is reminiscent of what South Africa faced from inside and outside before the end of Apartheid.
** Israel's moral capital is rapidly depreciating, is probably negative in most countries, slowly also changing in the USA;
** Israel is essentially ruled by the military, offering the electorate a choice of generals with limited agendas;
** Israeli violence and intransigence mobilize resistance and struggle in the Arab and Muslim worlds, if not in the sense of inter-state warfare then in the postmodern sense of terrorism against Israeli state-terrorism. Highly motivated volunteers willing to enter this struggle are in unlimited supply;
** Sooner or later this will include some of the 18% Israeli Arabs;
** Sooner or later this may lead to massive nonviolent struggle, like 100,000 Arab women in black marching on Israel;
** An economic boycott of Israel may come, like for South Africa initiated by non-governmental organizations, followed by local authorities and then national governments. Like in South Africa, it may be more important morally than economically;
** Again like for South Africa, US policy may change:
-economically Israel is becoming a liability, given the importance of access to Arab oil and trade with oil-rich countries for the USA, as the Arab countries are no longer willing to see the USA as an impartial third party. Boycotts and pressure to disinvest may follow.
-militarily Israel may commit the USA to a highly ambiguous war, and bases are available elsewhere (Turkey, Kosova, Macedonia);
-politically Israel is a liability in the UN. The EU and NATO allies may not legitimize violent intervention. At some point down the present path, the USA may prefer a reasonable agreement to supporting a loser, as it had earlier abandoned the Shah of Iran and President Marcos of the Philippines.
Clearly, colossal mistakes are being made also by Palestinians and their leadership, as people do when pressed against a wall.Â* The issue is not simply to allocate blame, that will not bring a solution, but to offer better alternatives.
Could the following peace package be more attractive to reasonable people?
[1] Palestine is recognized as a state following UN Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, with the borders existing on 4 June 1967, with small land exchanges;
[2] East Jerusalem becomes the capital of Palestine;
[3] A Middle East Community with Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria as full members, with water, arms, trade regimes based on multilateral consensus; and an Organization for Security and Cooperation in the Middle East with a broader base, analogous to the highly successful OSCE in Europe.
[4] This Community is supported by the EU, Nordic Community and ASEAN financially and for institution-building expertise;
[5] Egypt and Jordan lease additional land to Palestine;
[6] Israel and Palestine become federations with two Israeli cantons in Palestine and two Palestinian cantons in Israel;
[7] The two neighbor capitals become a city confederation, also host to major regional, UN and ecumenical institutions;
[8] The right of return also to Israel is accepted in principle, numbers to be negotiated within the canton formula;
[9] Israel and Palestine have joint and equitable mutually beneficial economic ventures, joint peace education and joint border patrolling;
[10] Massive stationing of UN monitoring forces.
[11] Sooner or later a Truth and Reconciliation process. Mediating a peace package should not be a country, or a group of countries, but a respected person or a group of such persons.
In the present climate of violence and mutual hatred, such peaceful cooperation seems hard to imagine. But down the road, as the costs of violence mount for both sides, there will come a time when a fair and reasonable outcome, recognizing the human rights of all, is perceived as preferable by enough people to make it happen.Â* In 1944, few people could have foreseen the close cooperation between Germany and France today, and after the Soviet Union shot down a Korean airliner over Sakhalin in 1983, few could imagine Gorbachev's perestroika only two years later, which soon led to an end of the Cold War.
What is needed to escape from the present quagmire is a clearly articulated, attractive vision of a better future.
__________________________________________________ __________
Johan Galtung, a Professor of Peace Studies, is Director of TRANSCEND, a peace and development network. Dietrich Fischer, a Professor at Pace University, is Co-director of TRANSCEND.
Why does Europe hate the Jews so much?
<strong>Also, 72% of Israelis are for the war. I think the interesting part is that 36% want Arafat expelled and 23% want him "eliminated" (why not just say dead?) and only 15% want to negotiate with him again.
...
What will it take for the US to change these numbers? Is it even possible for Powell to calm things down? Will it take another massacre ala 1982 to turn the support of Israel back to Peace?</strong><hr></blockquote>? It's astounding to me that even 15% want to negotiate with Arafat. How many Americans want to negotiate with bin Laden? Yes, bin Laden = Arafat. Arafat probably didn't oversee the terrorism, but I doubt bin Laden did, either. They don't give direct, hands-on support, they provide indirect support with their rhetoric. They're both leaders of groups of terrorists. And no, Israel's actions aren't terrorism. Terrorism is specifically targeting civilians in order to demoralize. The last intifadeh did primarily target Israeli military - this one is focused on civilians.
? It's also astounding to me that only 72% support defending themselves militarily, when they were being blown up almost daily.
? And why in the world is it up to the US to change the numbers?
Well since the israelis probably know a lot more about wath the situation REALLY is like. Those 15% tells me that Arafat is not OBL...
[quote]It's also astounding to me that only 72% support defending themselves militarily, when they were being blown up almost daily. <hr></blockquote>
Again, 28% may be seeing that Israel is doing more than actually defending itself...
[quote] Siting a similarity between South Africa and Israel is total crap. It's lazy minded anti-Jew Euro-speak. <hr></blockquote>
No it's not. Especially when your speaking of conflict resolution... SA is an example for everyone to follow, when it comes to settling old, bitter conflicts in a peaceful manner...
Wouldn't you rather see a peaceful solution, Scott? (Anyway, welcome back to the discussion. Thought we'd lost you there for a while...)
poll on jpost
You?re forgetting about the Arabs population in Israel and their corrosive effect on Israeli politics and this poll. When a 70% figure is shown, what it really means 100% of Israeli Jews.
qoute
(CROSSTALK)
What strikes me is how well Mr. ABUNIMAH has managed to learn his 5 second sound bites. The Israeli-Arab conflict is a VERY complex conflict. It involves many outside factors and is extremely multilayered. To even try to address this in the kind of platform advanced by CROSSTALK is just stupid. However, the show does give a glimpse how inadequate and unsophisticated the Israeli propaganda compared to the Arabs is. This is something Israel ready needs to address. Even watching their official spokespeople, frankly, is quite painful. They can hardy put a coherent sentence together - in English.
And New, like I said earlier, there is no moral equivalency between Israel and the Arabs in this conflict. There never was and never will be. Your malicious attempts to show otherwise just expose you for what you really are. But I suppose you?ll claim innocence and hide behind the claim of neutrality. But would you also claim moral equivalency between the German bombing of London and the British bombing of Dresden, or the Japanese bombing of Perl Harbour and the American bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? I certainly would not.
quote:
An Israeli proverb says, "the only way to get rid of your enemies is to make them your friends."
That is slanderous! I lived in Israel a long time now and NEVER even heard something like this. Why even bother with this guy? Is he one of your country mates New?
quote:
Israel is now in the most dangerous period of its history: increasingly militarist, fighting unwinnable wars, increasingly isolated and with ever more enemies, exposed to violence, non- violent resistance and boycotts from within and without. Sooner or later, the USA will make support conditional on concessions.
heheh ? was there a time in Israel?s history when this statement was not seemingly true? If anything, I think the Arabs know that the writing is on the wall. Their percentage of world oil production has been on the decline. It?s only a matter of time before their influence becomes non-existent. Maybe that was the reason for their latest statements out of Beirut? Do you think not?
quote:
Israel's moral capital is rapidly depreciating..
Perception is NOT reality, although some would argue different.
Quote:
Israel is essentially ruled by the military
heheh? where did you get this guy? Almost every Israeli citizen is in the army. It?s an army of citizens. (The exception by enlarge being Israeli Arabs, and ultra orthodox yeshiva students). If you?re an Israeli Jew who has lived in Israel long enough, chances are that your military rank would reflect that.
Quote:
Sooner or later this will include some of the 18% Israeli Arabs
The number is now outdated, but I essentially agree. Get rid of them now. And the U.S. should do the same. They?re ticking time bomb. But let the European keep their Arabs and Moslem. I?d like to have a good laugh in 20-30 years.
quote:
Sooner or later this may lead to massive nonviolent struggle, like 100,000 Arab women in black marching on Israel
Already happened. And it wasn?t non-violent.
quote:
An economic boycott of Israel may come
I hope so. The only thing to fear is fear itself. Israel needs to free itself from outside influence and get the job done right.
quote:
economically Israel is becoming a liability
heheh ? tell that to the arms dealers.
quote:
Kosova
This guy learned his propaganda well. That?s how the Muslims refer to Kosovo.
quote:
politically Israel is a liability in the UN
heheh? that?s just too funny.
A colossal mistake would be for Israel to align itself with the Moslem world and civilization. It is backwards and intolerant. And it offers nothing but poverty of mind, spirit, and material.
mika.
[ 04-07-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
PC^ sure hates us some Muslims <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
oh wait... but he's not a racist
<strong>
PC^ sure hates us some Muslims <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
oh wait... but he's not a racist
Those are factual statements, and say nothing about my love or hate of Moslems. And I thought you claimed to be Jewish..
mika.
[ 04-07-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
FoxNews commentators are entertainers first and dipshits second, and after that they are trolls and then maybe real journalists.