Apple won't allow demos, trials, betas on Mac App Store

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  • Reply 61 of 113
    chronsterchronster Posts: 1,894member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by muchomac View Post


    So, why is this different from the way any other retail store sells software? I mean, when was the last time you got a demo, beta or anything not being the full retail version on BestBuy, Amazon, NewEgg or your local software store?



    How is that thinking differently? lol. The capability is there, so why NOT use it?



    Also, the first example that comes to mind is the food samplers at Cosco or BJ's but maybe that's because I'm hungry
  • Reply 62 of 113
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,428member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Doorman. View Post


    BTW, which Apps would you like to see in the Store?

    What apps are worth it, to let others to find them easily?
    Please share the info.



    The ones from developers we would never of heard of without this. The wealth of talent this will open up to us. I am excited
  • Reply 63 of 113
    chronsterchronster Posts: 1,894member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post


    This is all academic.



    There is no way that Adobe is going to put the CS Suite in the app store for any price unless Apple changes large amounts of the rules they have already published, and unless Adobe wants to also radically alter it's product in several key ways.



    It ain't going to happen.



    Like what?
  • Reply 64 of 113
    bagbag Posts: 1member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Garysturn View Post


    30% is not a bad margin to get software listed in the app store. I doubt they can get any other software retailer to do it for any less. In fact I would bet that the margins at the Apple retail store for 3rd party software are much higher. Developers have always dealt with wholesale verses retail pricing when marketing their software. Software margins have to be high or retailers would not carry it. Some retailers like Amazon will even discount software up to 30% off the retail prices, so they must have a greater margin than 30% to be able to do that.



    I agree, 30% is a great margin for developers, even developers of expensive software, especially if you think of the MAS as compared to a physical retailer. To sell software at any physical retailer (such as something like Best Buy) they not only have to give Best Buy at least 30%, they also have the cost and labor of creating and shipping the physical product with a box, dvd, printed manuals, etc.
  • Reply 65 of 113
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chronster View Post


    Like what?



    For starters, the code base. I bet the MAS require it to be compiled using their SDK. Isn’t Adobe still using Carbon in some of their apps?
  • Reply 66 of 113
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Xian Zhu Xuande View Post


    If Apple does this right, and I expect they might, you might be surprised. Even as a technology enthusiast I find those software listing sites to be frustrating and limited. I actually prefer Google searches more at times. Someone who is not familiar with these things will be far more interested in the Mac App Store, and those people will have already been introduced to the concept through their phone or iPod Touch.



    It could be huge.



    I agree. I think we also won't really know what the result is going to be until it actually launches. To the degree that it puts the consumer back in the driver seat in terms of software choices, and also raises the confidence level of the average person in terms of purchasing software, it could easily spur massive sales. Products that were previously thought to be popular by the pundits might not turn out to be actually popular when the end consumer is making all the decisions.



    In my workplace for instance, licensing is strictly controlled. Support is doled out based on who paid for what and what contract it's on. At the same time, it's a University, so we are unable to lock down the machines the way a business might.



    All of our Professors and Researchers are now going to have a store on their desktop. They are certainly going to be buying "unsupported" products, that we will now have to support. For example although we strongly encourage it's use on the sly, we don't officially support iWork at all, but now anyone with a computer and a credit card is going to be able to buy the suite in a few minutes.



    I think we might see popular programs spread like viruses based on word of mouth reviews etc., and whether we "officially" support one product or another will be essentially irrelevant. How many people will download Pages and try it out for instance when it's a ten dollar download that takes less than a minute?



    It might be another back door into the enterprise in that way. IT departments will have to specifically and completely disable the store to have any control whatsoever, and many of them (like mine) won't, or won't be able to for some reason.
  • Reply 67 of 113
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Xian Zhu Xuande View Post


    Not sure I agree. It is necessary on the mobile app store, but in the Mac app store there are plenty of ways to distribute software outside the store itself. Limitations such as this may help to provide a consistent, reliable experience.



    If Apple provides information about any trial/demo/sample on their store and where such may be available, then of course there is no need to post the actual one there. It seems that many apps sell when folks have a chance to 'try before buying'. This, I think, would be especially true for new applications that do not already have an established customer base.
  • Reply 68 of 113
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chronster View Post


    Like what?



    Well, it's all shaking out as we speak so we don't know exactly at the moment. Some of the early "rules" announced by Apple that would get in the way are:



    - standard installer required

    - no serial numbers or authentication

    - no suites

    - no plug-ins



    I think it might happen eventually, and Apple could change any of those rules tomorrow or simply not go with them when the store opens. My argument was that the store would have to change and the CS suite would have to change so much, that it would essentially be a different product or a different store by the time it appears.



    My feeling (guess) is that Adobe will initially stay out of the store for those reasons and make a lot of noise about how "unfair" and "closed" it is, and how the store is going to be a giant fail, but then when it succeeds they will issue some special version of their products for the store, (probably a "lite" version or something) and still try to rape their regular customers with the original suite.



    Eventually they will cave on everything because money talks, but Adobe has such a stick up the butt about Apple, that they will almost certainly blind themselves to the opportunity for a while at first.
  • Reply 69 of 113
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chronster View Post


    Like what?



    Like the fact that they won't be able to use license keys, and probably any number of terms in the App Store license that Adobe wouldn't care to abide by. Maybe some of their consumer products will end up in the app store (And it would be a huge improvement if they distributed Reader through the App Store.) but they aren't going to change their entire licensing practices any time soon just to sell CS through the App Store. Besides, given the cost and customer base, there would be little or no benefit to them doing so.
  • Reply 70 of 113
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by spunkybart View Post


    I changed your example just a bit.



    In this example, I would ALWAYS buy it from Adobe, never from the Mac store, even if the prices were the same between Adobe and the Mac Store.



    Reason? Because I CAN get a demo version on the Adobe site and try it out before I commit. At that point if the prices are the same (assuming), then I'm already doing business directly with Adobe and would never use the Mac store for that app.



    I'm seeing zero advantage to me in a Mac store, except for giving me the ability to search for software that I might not know about from smaller software vendors.



    Elimination of software piracy is a HUGE advantage the app store will have over developers each trying to implement their own cumbersome registration processes that, in the end, don't really work. This should more than make up for Apple's percentage. I think Apple's store will also draw a lot of attention and sales to developers who don't otherwise get it. I think the advantages are huge to be in the store. Those that turn their nose up will soon have a change of heart when they see their customers turn to competing software vendors because they are selling where the buyers are shopping.
  • Reply 71 of 113
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Doorman. View Post


    Yeah, go buy a software which costs 200 USD without trying it out first...



    Most likely you know what and why you are buying in that case.
  • Reply 72 of 113
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ronbo View Post


    I think you're wrong. He's serious.



    No one knows my mind....
  • Reply 73 of 113
    nkhmnkhm Posts: 928member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Doorman. View Post


    Yeah, go buy a software which costs 200 USD without trying it out first... These are not 0,79 cent Apps like on iPhone



    The purpose of demos and betas are different. Und free software maybe of even greater value (good quality on par with non free counterparts, +saved money), and this is sometimes really the case.

    And exactly because free apps are so popular - Apple does want to limit it - to make easier on their servers and increase return on investment.



    The question is whether Apple is going to restrict the installation of the Software only through their Apple Store. Why not - they are doing it already for the phone. This would be really.... monopolistic... and "revolutionary"



    Steve Jobs is not stupid, he will never do this.



    He has stated as much. And I'm aware that beta and demo software is different. Thank you for the patronising (and unnecessary) comment though.



    Users on this site once again getting worked up about nothing - if you want a demo version the company will provide a link to their web site to go and get it. The App Store will be for final version, tested, vetted software, it will be a very safe environment (relatively) for the average computer user and a good method of distribution for independent/smaller software developers.



    Apple is not a monopoly, it is a tiny player in terms of computer software and hardware, this is just another way of obtaining software for the end user. It's really not worth the column inches it's attracting, or the typical hysteria that's flared up here.
  • Reply 74 of 113
    nkhmnkhm Posts: 928member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chronster View Post


    I'm on the "bad decision" side of this one, simply because I've actually bought apps in the market place after liking the demo (also in Steam.)



    Steam is a great example of where demos made me buy software. Plenty of game demos even allow a taste of the multiplayer portion of it. Left4Dead for instance had a LOT of people go from the demo to the game.



    It makes sense to me to allow people to get a taste of what they will be getting, and clearly it makes sense to software companies. Forcing people to go navigate for these demos might prove to be a bad decision because people might just be lazy enough to not go to the website to download it. Not only that, but not everyone has a demo of their software, so people have to go and CHECK basically.



    In the end, people will end up deciding to pass on that app they might have bought if they had seen how cool it was with the demo that they were too lazy to go check for.



    Apple isn't telling people not to offer demos, it's telling them not to distribute the demos through the store. Why can't people understand that? Just provide a link to your web site for people to download a demo. It's a really easy concept and not a big deal.
  • Reply 75 of 113
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,623moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nkhm View Post


    If the app store is another source, then what's the difference?



    Usually download sites are ad-supported and membership-supported so the prices of the software comes direct from the developer. In fact, the sites sometimes direct you straight to the purchase page of the developer.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nkhm View Post


    You're not restricted to purchasing only from the app store, and there are other sources for demos and of course the developer's own web sites. Why would a developer shaft apple? They are going to want to take advantage of sales, not prevent their own software from selling.



    It won't prevent it from selling though if they sell it direct to the consumer. The developers of Transmit would make either $34 via their site or $24 via the App Store. If they have an alternative transaction model that makes them an extra $10 per sale, that quickly adds up. If it was say 30% for apps under $10 and 10% and up to a fixed value of $50 beyond, the difference is negligible.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism


    I don?t think anyone expects to see high-priced, low volume apps on the MAS because there is a very real possibility that the increase in exposure, and therefore sale, won?t be enough to warrant its usage.



    Quite the opposite. The low volume apps need as much exposure as they can get. High volume ones tend to get exposure via word of mouth. I'm thinking about Final Cut, Motion, AE and Photoshop effects plugins. It is so difficult to find those because they are low volume so the chances of a Mac user (10% marketshare) stumbling on a company website that uses the software package supported and can afford it are slim to none so a lot of companies don't even bother making Mac versions. I hope the App Store changes that.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism


    Heck, automatic app installations and updates are enough to make me happy as I still can?t figure out how to explain to someone who is knew to Mac OS X or computing, how the Safari Downloads window, .DMG file, the mounted image, the app within, and the multiple copies users now have of those apps are all different things.



    Yeah, I've seen that problem often. One way they can encourage use of the App Store is that the updates feature/notifications will only work if you purchase through the App Store.



    I wonder what's going to happen on the games front. The movement with Steam seems to have died down a bit - no Modern Warfare, Bioshock and others. I could see World of Warcraft + expansions going on the App Store but it's a bit disappointing that publishers haven't supported Steam more. The Steamplay idea seemed really good and a way to get games developers on board with porting games over.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ghostface147


    Any program that requires license keys or activation will NOT be allowed on the Mac app store.



    That makes me wonder if that means the OS will require an update that contains some encryption mechanism to verify a valid app (e.g embedded in the OS kernel). You could of course jailbreak it like iOS but I don't think many people will want to risk screwing with their OS kernel which prevents updates. They can't distribute non-copyprotected apps so I would assume that's the case and I think it's a selling point they can use as users don't have to store them or type them in, nor can they resell apps or distribute serial codes for others.



    It's also an easy way to install all your apps on a new machine as they are linked to your iTunes.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mbarriault


    Minor point, but check your math - 30% off of $1299 is $909.30



    That would be my eyesight that needs checked. I used the calculator for it but read it as $999.30. I corrected the post to read $899.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BlueDjinn


    It's the same reason Best Buy can get away with selling HDMI cables for $30 when you can buy them online for $3 apiece--if the Best Buy shopper doesn't know about the online source, they'll pony up the $30.



    True, although a minor point would be that with the App Store, both options are a click away and I think people are accustomed to Googling. My mother is and that's the first place she goes for anything even sites she knows where they are. The strongest part of the App Store is the centralisation as it will eventually become known as *the* place to get Mac software. It's certainly better than their own software listing on apple.com.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism


    Transmission (would that be allowed?)



    I think file sharing apps won't be allowed but I really hope Apple lightens up on some restrictions. Like the use or emulated software. Blocking Python would prevent most 3D apps getting in which is just plain silly. They can block apps that use technology they don't bundle with the OS though (that includes Flash and Java now).



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism


    (A good mass file name renamer app)



    Try r-name:



    http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/12259/r-name



    It doesn't have an undo but it gives you a good preview before renaming. You can get the source code and compile it as a universal binary.
  • Reply 76 of 113
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nkhm View Post


    Apple isn't telling people not to offer demos, it's telling them not to distribute the demos through the store. Why can't people understand that? Just provide a link to your web site for people to download a demo. It's a really easy concept and not a big deal.



    Actually, they are telling people to go ahead and offer whatever demos they want to, but that they'll have to distribute those from their own websites.
  • Reply 77 of 113
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    I think this article points to Apple having no plans to disallow non-MAS app installations. If they did, wouldn?t they be allowing for the demos and trials (at least) without reminding devs that they should use their website to promote these types of apps?



    For now.
  • Reply 78 of 113
    Demos, free wares, beta versions, add supported softwares can be installed directly on mac. Mac app store does not kills direct installation options.



    Paid software can be purchased on app store. This will allow developers to earn more money, than they do by selling software directly.



    So lot of resources of apple get saved. They don't have to host free softwares. Direct installation is always available. Plus apple are not earning anything from it.



    Its a smart decision.
  • Reply 79 of 113
    newbeenewbee Posts: 2,055member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post


    Hopefully never. That being said, they like having the power to make choices for you, so I would say a small chance of this happening with Lion and with a much larger chance of it happening in 10.8.



    Surely you jest ... 100% "lockdown will never happen ... you should know that. I'll say one thing for you Ben ..... you don't say much, but when you do, it usually doesn't mean anything .
  • Reply 80 of 113
    newbeenewbee Posts: 2,055member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rot'nApple View Post


    Can you purchase from the devloper's site too and bypass Apple's monetory cut? Even though it's a few mouse clicks away, that's stupid. Come to my store but go some place else to try it before you buy it, huh?!



    There is something else at play here that I don't think many people are considering, and that is .... the iTunes gift cards being available anywhere. I know that for me, at least, the fact that I can purchase from Apple without having to divulge any cc info or other private info is huge. I have purchased several thousand $$$ from iTunes that I would not have done otherwise. I now have on my Mac several "trial versions" of software that have limited ability but when they become available from Apple via gift cards I will purchase them all ..... but not before, and I believe that I'm not alone in this category.
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