From the typical greedy fanbois... without Woz you wouldn't have made a dime off of Apple because there wouldn't be any... and you'd probably have ended up MS fanbois worshipping Gates and bad mouthing Paul Allen.
Look how superior I am to someone by purposely misspelling their nickname!
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Jobs... ...given the axe...
Didn't happen. Check your facts.
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NOTHING IDIOTS!
Yeah, philanthropy. That's completely worthless. Also, reported for name-calling.
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...in charge of it.
Nowhere does anything say this. You're implying it.
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Gee.... I wonder what would happen if I took this loaded gun and put it against my temple and pulled this funny little thing called a trigger... I think.
As disgustingly childish as you're being, I'll resist the urge to ask you to find out for yourself.
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DOING NOTHING!!!!
Invented the personal computer as we know it. If that's nothing to you, all of your accomplishments must be utterly worthless.
you still haven't responded to my post on objected oriented programming where I clearly showed not all that much has really changed since the 70s.
Sorry, but there's no point even attempting to argue with someone who thinks that running a multibillion dollar computer company today is the same thing as hand soldering circuit boards in your garage in the mid-70's.
Sorry, but there's no point even attempting to argue with someone who thinks that running a multibillion dollar computer company today is the same thing as hand soldering circuit boards in your garage in the mid-70's.
what are you even talking about. Nobody ever said Woz should come back and run Apple. Woz never had and never will have any desire to actually run apple.
You said
Quote:
Programming involves very high level object oriented programming - which wasn't even dreamed of in the 1970's..
And I quite clearly showed how programming computers today couldn't be any more like 1970s object oriented SmallTalk without actually using SmallTalk. Nearly everything Apple does and had sone for a decade programming wise is modeled after 1970s SmallTalk.
And I also pointed out how the kind of programming Woz did when he invented the Apple computer is harder than object oriented programming.
Sorry, but there's no point even attempting to argue with someone who thinks that running a multibillion dollar computer company today is the same thing as hand soldering circuit boards in your garage in the mid-70's.
No!
You've been challenged several times on things you claim to be true but can't support.
You just keep changing the subject to dodge the issue.
Woz was not asked if he would return to run Apple as CEO.
He was asked if he would return to Apple -- he said yes if asked.
In his prior stint at Apple he was perfectly happy being an engineer -- a damned good engineer!
He benefited Apple, Apple customers and himself.
Your continued efforts to avoid addressing the issues and statements that you made concerning Woz's qualifications as an engineer -- have caused me to lose any respect I had for your opinion and sense of reason.
To my mind, that makes you just another troll to be ignored!
If you have any balls, step up to the plate and either support the statements you made or apologize for being wrong.
Did we read the same article? I don't see that suggestion anywhere.
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The Wuz would replace Jobs about as well as Obama would replace Ronald Reagan. Want to know a sure fire way to shit can Apple into the annals of history (kill the company)... put The Wuz in charge of it.
Again, I don't think you read the same article. Nothing was even hinted at Woz replacing Jobs or being in charge of anything.
Perhaps you should check your meds before you get all fired up over some other article you may have read somewhere else.
Who is the INSANE MORON behind this idea? The Wuz? I'm sorry but you pathetic idiots don't seem to have noticed that while Jobs went off and started Next and Pixar when given the axe by Apple..... what did "The Wuz" do????
NOTHING IDIOTS!
Suggesting "bringing him back" is insane! The Wuz would replace Jobs about as well as Obama would replace Ronald Reagan. Want to know a sure fire way to shit can Apple into the annals of history (kill the company)... put The Wuz in charge of it.
Gee.... I wonder what would happen if I took this loaded gun and put it against my temple and pulled this funny little thing called a trigger... I think.
You're a freaking MORON if you think this is a good idea. Also... isn't he still drawing a paycheck from Apple... so in essence... he's already still there.... DOING NOTHING!!!!
It would be nice if you dialed back on the harsh language.
Also, leave politics out of it. If you have a political axe to grind, Political Outsider is the place to put it, even then, go to a politics oriented site with that.
As it is, I think you can stand to learn how to post like a reasonable adult. If you can't respect people enough to use their names and nicknames properly, it may be best to not post about them.
Quite a few posters here have said that time and technology have passed Woz by, implying that he no longer has the "chops" required to design circuts fot "Today's" devices.
What has changed?
Don't transistors perform the same functions the same way as they did 30 years ago? (or even 60 years ago with vacuum tubes)
Aren't circuits just a bunch of transistors hooked together in a certain way to accomplish a given result?
Is the processes of physically designing, prototyping and validating the logic of a circuit that much different than it was 30 years ago?
I can't believe that circuit design begins with laying out transistor traces on a silicon wafer -- that's the end product.
I suspect that the tools have advanced from wire-wrapped circuit boards to computer design tools. But those are just different (more powerful) tools -- which can be readily learned.
If the process is the same what has changed to make obsolete someone with circuit design talent?
I have always viewed circuit design, much like painting -- a combination of inspiration, vision, natural creative talent and persistence.
Take a good artist for example, who uses oils and a easel -- does he become obsolete because of the advent of Photoshop. or, later, one of the painting tools on the iPad?
Nah! If the good artist wants, he can learn the new tools to help express his talent.
How is that different from a good circuit designer?
From my own experiences in this area, I can tell you that circuits and circuit design has changed dramatically. We went from an era of mostly discreet designs with two to at most, four layer boards, to IC designs with four to six layer boards, to surface mount chips with as many as twelve layer boards. That's just a start. The tools, both software and hardware are much more sophisticated and expensive than they were back then. In fact, the field is almost unrecognizable. The sophistication of the circuits are vastly greater.
The question of whether guys like him bother to keep up is a fair one. He's pretty wealthy, and doesn't do grunt work. Has he had to keep up? That's a fair question as well. While he most likely knows the general trends and aspects of what's out there, it's very possible that he doesn't know the hands on design information guys working in these fields know now.
I have that same problem even though I keep my hand in, and continue reading a number of industry publications as well. But without having the need of a working engineer in the field to keep really up to date, there's lots of things I don't know well enough to be able to work with without having to go back and taking courses again.
While I would never claim to be as ingenious as he was at Apple, I likely know about as much, as do many thousands of others. There are many thousands of others who know much more, because they are current, and are doing work on a daily basis.
You've been challenged several times on things you claim to be true but can't support.
You just keep changing the subject to dodge the issue.
Woz was not asked if he would return to run Apple as CEO.
He was asked if he would return to Apple -- he said yes if asked.
In his prior stint at Apple he was perfectly happy being an engineer -- a damned good engineer!
He benefited Apple, Apple customers and himself.
Your continued efforts to avoid addressing the issues and statements that you made concerning Woz's qualifications as an engineer -- have caused me to lose any respect I had for your opinion and sense of reason.
To my mind, that makes you just another troll to be ignored!
If you have any balls, step up to the plate and either support the statements you made or apologize for being wrong.
Otherwise, you are not worth the time or effort.
Sorry, but YOU are the one who has taken the position that Woz would be an asset. So far, you haven't provided a shred of evidence that he would be.
My position is simple - if you'd take the time to understand it instead of spewing your endless straw man arguments:
1. What Woz did 30 years ago doesn't prove that he's qualified to do ANYTHING at Apple today.
2. The computer industry has changed immensely in 30 years.
3. Apple has changed immensely in 30 years.
4. What it takes to contribute at Apple today is vastly different than what it took 30 years ago.
Now, if you have evidence to support your claim that Woz would be an asset, feel free to support it. But "he was smart 30 years ago" isn't evidence that he could contribute a darned thing to Apple today.
The other factor is that we know for a fact that he can't keep his mouth shut. He has blabbed a number of important trade secrets that he had access to. That alone creates a massive barrier to his return in any significant role.
Now, please provide the evidence that Woz knows ANYTHING that would be useful to Apple today or stop making that same stupid assertion over and over.
From my own experiences in this area, I can tell you that circuits and circuit design has changed dramatically. We went from an era of mostly discreet designs with two to at most, four layer boards, to IC designs with four to six layer boards, to surface mount chips with as many as twelve layer boards. That's just a start. The tools, both software and hardware are much more sophisticated and expensive than they were back then. In fact, the field is almost unrecognizable. The sophistication of the circuits are vastly greater.
The question of whether guys like him bother to keep up is a fair one. He's pretty wealthy, and doesn't do grunt work. Has he had to keep up? That's a fair question as well. While he most likely knows the general trends and aspects of what's out there, it's very possible that he doesn't know the hands on design information guys working in these fields know now.
I have that same problem even though I keep my hand in, and continue reading a number of industry publications as well. But without having the need of a working engineer in the field to keep really up to date, there's lots of things I don't know well enough to be able to work with without having to go back and taking courses again.
While I would never claim to be as ingenious as he was at Apple, I likely know about as much, as do many thousands of others. There are many thousands of others who know much more, because they are current, and are doing work on a daily basis.
He hasn't had the need to do that for many years.
Thanks Mel!
Thats the first logical explanation of any detail, that anyone has posted.
Do people build actual (physical) test circuits anymore -- or is it all done with test simulation on computers?
How would a guy like Woz, experiment in today's environment -- seeing if he could get the same results with fewer chips/transistors; or get additional results from existing chips/transistors. This was one of Woz's strengths.
My Dad started out in the late 1930s, as a self-taught electrical wizz -- crystal radios, car radios, invented/adapted universal turn signals, headlight dimmers, and that little light that blinked if you got a phone call while you were out... starting with vacuum tubes all the way through transistors, then semiconductors. He built his own Hi-Fis, Stereos, theremins, electric organs -- but first he had to build his test equipment -- oscilloscopes, signal generators, etc.
His last invention was in 1990 -- he developed a solid state device which sat between the battery and the battery cable. It would monitor battery strength -- and disconnect the battery if it reached the threshold needed to start the car.
I mention this, because Dad never had any formal training -- just visualized things and tinkered around to make it happen.
He actually bought an Apple ][, a few weeks before I got mine -- total surprise to both of us.
He almost drooled when I introduced him to Woz.
The point: I would say that technology changed quite a bit in the 50 + years -- yet he was able to keep his "hand in" and remain a vital contributor.
Sorry, but YOU are the one who has taken the position that Woz would be an asset. So far, you haven't provided a shred of evidence that he would be.
My position is simple - if you'd take the time to understand it instead of spewing your endless straw man arguments:
1. What Woz did 30 years ago doesn't prove that he's qualified to do ANYTHING at Apple today.
2. The computer industry has changed immensely in 30 years.
3. Apple has changed immensely in 30 years.
4. What it takes to contribute at Apple today is vastly different than what it took 30 years ago.
Now, if you have evidence to support your claim that Woz would be an asset, feel free to support it. But "he was smart 30 years ago" isn't evidence that he could contribute a darned thing to Apple today.
The other factor is that we know for a fact that he can't keep his mouth shut. He has blabbed a number of important trade secrets that he had access to. That alone creates a massive barrier to his return in any significant role.
Now, please provide the evidence that Woz knows ANYTHING that would be useful to Apple today or stop making that same stupid assertion over and over.
That's rather stupid to think he can't be an asset. I'm sure my mom can be an asset at Apple. Do you know what "asset" means? Being of use. I'm sure any person with a brain can be of some use somehow, let alone Woz.
The question is an asset at what? What role are you envisioning Woz can't be an asset in? Engineering? Let's just assume that Woz has been not keeping up with the advances. You think Woz is so stupid that he can't pick it up quickly. Where is your evidence of Woz's stupidity as an engineer? You assume that he has forgotten even the basics so completely that he cannot even be an asset?
The only "evidence" is that he has the experience and the background. Where is your evidence of his lack of knowledge?
That's rather stupid to think he can't be an asset. I'm sure my mom can be an asset at Apple. Do you know what "asset" means? Being of use. I'm sure any person with a brain can be of some use somehow, let alone Woz.
So Apple should hire everyone on the planet. After all, everyone on the planet has some use, right?
That's an incredibly stupid argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tipt
The question is an asset at what? What role are you envisioning Woz can't be an asset in? Engineering? Let's just assume that Woz has been not keeping up with the advances. You think Woz is so stupid that he can't pick it up quickly. Where is your evidence of Woz's stupidity as an engineer? You assume that he has forgotten even the basics so completely that he cannot even be an asset?
No, I'm not assuming anything. I stated the facts. The world has changed. Apple has changed. Computers have changed. I never said that Woz hasn't kept up. What I said is that no one has presented any evidence that he has kept up - and unless someone can demonstrate that he could contribute at a level to justify his salary, it would be a waste of time to hire him. No one has refuted that.
From what I've seen of his recent behavior (not to mention all the whining from the Woz fans here), he might have some minor value as a PR figurehead. I don't see any evidence that he could do any more than that. But feel free to present it if you can.
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Originally Posted by tipt
The only "evidence" is that he has the experience and the background. Where is your evidence of his lack of knowledge?
Your argument is ludicrous.
I don't have to prove anything. I simply stated that the world has changed and Apple has changed and the fact that Woz was a great guy 30 years ago doesn't mean that he's be of any real value today.
So far, no one has shown ANY evidence that he WOULD be a significant asset today.
apple has countless billions in the bank and you're worried about the salary they'd pay Woz if he came back? Guess what, they never stopped paying his salary.
I still don't get the people who want to assign a specific role to Woz within Apple then say he is unqualified for that role. He wouldn't be brought back to be CEO, he also wouldn't be brought back to be lead engineer on iPad 3. You keep wanting to bring up what he has or hasn't done since leaving Apple. He finished college. He volunteers his time to teach school. You know, he might just have some insight to bring to Apple in education. It's clearly something he has a passion for.
And I'm still waiting for your response to my SmallTalk post - a language that hasn't changed in 30 years but not only still gets used, but still gets copied in the so called modern languages. You seemed as certain about the history of object oriented programming as you have about everything else you said in this discussion. It was a central point to your countering my claim not all that much has changed in the last 30 years aside from scale and speed. The hottest new product on the planet, the iPad, is a copy of a 1968 idea that is programmed with a copy of a 1980 programming language. Only it's lost about 1/3 of the original design goals along the way.
Thats the first logical explanation of any detail, that anyone has posted.
Do people build actual (physical) test circuits anymore -- or is it all done with test simulation on computers?
How would a guy like Woz, experiment in today's environment -- seeing if he could get the same results with fewer chips/transistors; or get additional results from existing chips/transistors. This was one of Woz's strengths.
My Dad started out in the late 1930s, as a self-taught electrical wizz -- crystal radios, car radios, invented/adapted universal turn signals, headlight dimmers, and that little light that blinked if you got a phone call while you were out... starting with vacuum tubes all the way through transistors, then semiconductors. He built his own Hi-Fis, Stereos, theremins, electric organs -- but first he had to build his test equipment -- oscilloscopes, signal generators, etc.
His last invention was in 1990 -- he developed a solid state device which sat between the battery and the battery cable. It would monitor battery strength -- and disconnect the battery if it reached the threshold needed to start the car.
I mention this, because Dad never had any formal training -- just visualized things and tinkered around to make it happen.
He actually bought an Apple ][, a few weeks before I got mine -- total surprise to both of us.
He almost drooled when I introduced him to Woz.
The point: I would say that technology changed quite a bit in the 50 + years -- yet he was able to keep his "hand in" and remain a vital contributor.
Most things are modeled on computer before doing any actual physical work. Computer design programs are very sophisticated these days, and a lot of work can be done by telling the program what you need in the circuit. But that's only at the first level. You still end up doing most of the work. Same thing with circuit board programs. The program can do most of it, but stops at certain points when human decisions need to be made. But it often takes teams of M.S.EE and Phd level people to do anything really complex.
It's become really hard to be an inventor in a garage these days and come up with something really important in this field; especially in the field of computers and communications.
On the other hand, manufacturers supply fact sheets with devices, or you can download them when trying out a circuit. So people without much training can actually work on simpler designs themselves. I hate to admit it, but I do that as well.
That's rather stupid to think he can't be an asset. I'm sure my mom can be an asset at Apple. Do you know what "asset" means? Being of use. I'm sure any person with a brain can be of some use somehow, let alone Woz.
The question is an asset at what? What role are you envisioning Woz can't be an asset in? Engineering? Let's just assume that Woz has been not keeping up with the advances. You think Woz is so stupid that he can't pick it up quickly. Where is your evidence of Woz's stupidity as an engineer? You assume that he has forgotten even the basics so completely that he cannot even be an asset?
The only "evidence" is that he has the experience and the background. Where is your evidence of his lack of knowledge?
Your argument is ludicrous.
It's not so simple. Woz isn't just anyone. He can't go to work at Apple in most positions because of his visibility. It would be very hard for most people at Apple to work shoulder to shoulder with him. So where would he fit in?
This isn't a case of putting the guy down. He's a smart dude, no doubt. But he and Jobs had a falling out some time ago, and how that would work out isn't known either. And no, technically, he would be at a disadvantage. It's not that easy to catch up if you haven been in the field for a couple of decades. He's been more of a dilettante for some time now than a person working in the mines. You don't just "pick it up".
But he could do something else, right? What would they NEED that he could do? That's different than hiring him just to make him feel good. It might be fun to see him back at Apple, but I really can't think of a position that he could fill without moving someone else out of it. Director of Special Projects? I don't know. Come up with something that sounds real.
apple has countless billions in the bank and you're worried about the salary they'd pay Woz if he came back? Guess what, they never stopped paying his salary.
I still don't get the people who want to assign a specific role to Woz within Apple then say he is unqualified for that role. He wouldn't be brought back to be CEO, he also wouldn't be brought back to be lead engineer on iPad 3. You keep wanting to bring up what he has or hasn't done since leaving Apple. He finished college. He volunteers his time to teach school. You know, he might just have some insight to bring to Apple in education. It's clearly something he has a passion for.
And I'm still waiting for your response to my SmallTalk post - a language that hasn't changed in 30 years but not only still gets used, but still gets copied in the so called modern languages. You seemed as certain about the history of object oriented programming as you have about everything else you said in this discussion. It was a central point to your countering my claim not all that much has changed in the last 30 years aside from scale and speed. The hottest new product on the planet, the iPad, is a copy of a 1968 idea that is programmed with a copy of a 1980 programming language. Only it's lost about 1/3 of the original design goals along the way.
I'm not getting in the middle of your argument, but I've read your posts, and don't understand what it is that you would think they would want him back to do. This isn't a matter of Woz going to Apple and asking for a real job. They would have to decide that he would be an asset. The fact that they haven't, likely shows that they don't think he would be.
No point in getting mad at people who also don't think he would be. If Apple hired him and people here denigrated the hire, then you could counter their points because Apple would think he's an asset. But as this is not even speculative now, thinking that he would be is pretty much fantasy. All that happened was that he was asked if he would go back if asked, and he said that if he were asked, he would think about it. This isn't much to go on. Truth is, I'm not even certain if he would feel comfortable about going back.
It's not so simple. Woz isn't just anyone. He can't go to work at Apple in most positions because of his visibility. It would be very hard for most people at Apple to work shoulder to shoulder with him. So where would he fit in?
This isn't a case of putting the guy down. He's a smart dude, no doubt. But he and Jobs had a falling out some time ago, and how that would work out isn't known either. And no, technically, he would be at a disadvantage. It's not that easy to catch up if you haven been in the field for a couple of decades. He's been more of a dilettante for some time now than a person working in the mines. You don't just "pick it up".
But he could do something else, right? What would they NEED that he could do? That's different than hiring him just to make him feel good. It might be fun to see him back at Apple, but I really can't think of a position that he could fill without moving someone else out of it. Director of Special Projects? I don't know. Come up with something that sounds real.
I'm not the one saying he would be NO asset whatsoever. The test you set out is also frankly absurd. There are very, very, very few positions where one specific person is *needed*. Even I would say, Steve Jobs is not *needed*. That's saying a company would not survive without that person. Of course under such an extreme requirement Woz is not needed. Who is *needed*? We are all, I'm afraid to say expendable. Can they find a position in which he can contribute meaningfully? I'm sure there are. He's not stupid and to make it out as if he is lacks any credibility.
And I would like to say that you also, like the other poster, seem to say that Woz would be no 'asset'. As I said earlier, either find another terminology or be more clear in exactly what you are saying.
It's not so simple. Woz isn't just anyone. He can't go to work at Apple in most positions because of his visibility. It would be very hard for most people at Apple to work shoulder to shoulder with him. So where would he fit in?
This isn't a case of putting the guy down. He's a smart dude, no doubt. But he and Jobs had a falling out some time ago, and how that would work out isn't known either. And no, technically, he would be at a disadvantage. It's not that easy to catch up if you haven been in the field for a couple of decades. He's been more of a dilettante for some time now than a person working in the mines. You don't just "pick it up".
But he could do something else, right? What would they NEED that he could do? That's different than hiring him just to make him feel good. It might be fun to see him back at Apple, but I really can't think of a position that he could fill without moving someone else out of it. Director of Special Projects? I don't know. Come up with something that sounds real.
Also, please point out to me evidence where he hasn't been keeping up with the field? You know what he does in his spare time? Do you know whether he has or has not been reading up on it? Tinkering? Etc? Do you know what he knows now? Do you know how much he has or has not forgotten? Do you know the ease with which he may pick up the material again?
I'm not the one saying he would be NO asset whatsoever. The test you set out is also frankly absurd. There are very, very, very few positions where one specific person is *needed*. Even I would say, Steve Jobs is not *needed*. That's saying a company would not survive without that person. Of course under such an extreme requirement Woz is not needed. Who is *needed*? We are all, I'm afraid to say expendable. Can they find a position in which he can contribute meaningfully? I'm sure there are. He's not stupid and to make it out as if he is lacks any credibility.
And I would like to say that you also, like the other poster, seem to say that Woz would be no 'asset'. As I said earlier, either find another terminology or be more clear in exactly what you are saying.
Have you ever run a company? I've had two. Yes, you hire someone because the position you're hiring them for needs a person with those skills.
You aren't coming up with anything useful for him to do there. So you think he could do something with education? Apple's got a division that deals with education. What would he do there? What position would he fill? Where would he fit between the person below, and the person above? Who would be his boss? Who, if anyone, would he be in charge of? Exactly what would be his job?
You seem to think this is easy. It's not. He's too well known to just hire to do a task. There has to be a specific position he would fill. They could make one up, but what would it be?
I'm being very clear in what I've been saying. You, however, haven't said anything clear, other that saying that Apple should hire him because, well, he's the Woz, and they can figure something out for him to do.
I've asked you to be specific, and come up with a viable position for him that would be a significant reason for Apple to want to hire him. You haven done that. All you're doing is attacking our positions. I've been very careful to give good, solid business reasons why I don't see a purpose to his hire, while you've given nothing at all to show why they should.
It isn't good enough for you to say that he's the Woz, and therefor Apple would benefit from him being there. That's no reason at all. Obviously, apple doesn't agree, as I've also stated. You have to find a reason why they are wrong. You haven't.
Comments
The Wuz?
Look how superior I am to someone by purposely misspelling their nickname!
Jobs... ...given the axe...
Didn't happen. Check your facts.
NOTHING IDIOTS!
Yeah, philanthropy. That's completely worthless. Also, reported for name-calling.
...in charge of it.
Nowhere does anything say this. You're implying it.
Gee.... I wonder what would happen if I took this loaded gun and put it against my temple and pulled this funny little thing called a trigger... I think.
As disgustingly childish as you're being, I'll resist the urge to ask you to find out for yourself.
DOING NOTHING!!!!
Invented the personal computer as we know it. If that's nothing to you, all of your accomplishments must be utterly worthless.
you still haven't responded to my post on objected oriented programming where I clearly showed not all that much has really changed since the 70s.
Sorry, but there's no point even attempting to argue with someone who thinks that running a multibillion dollar computer company today is the same thing as hand soldering circuit boards in your garage in the mid-70's.
Sorry, but there's no point even attempting to argue with someone who thinks that running a multibillion dollar computer company today is the same thing as hand soldering circuit boards in your garage in the mid-70's.
what are you even talking about. Nobody ever said Woz should come back and run Apple. Woz never had and never will have any desire to actually run apple.
You said
Programming involves very high level object oriented programming - which wasn't even dreamed of in the 1970's..
And I quite clearly showed how programming computers today couldn't be any more like 1970s object oriented SmallTalk without actually using SmallTalk. Nearly everything Apple does and had sone for a decade programming wise is modeled after 1970s SmallTalk.
And I also pointed out how the kind of programming Woz did when he invented the Apple computer is harder than object oriented programming.
Sorry, but there's no point even attempting to argue with someone who thinks that running a multibillion dollar computer company today is the same thing as hand soldering circuit boards in your garage in the mid-70's.
No!
You've been challenged several times on things you claim to be true but can't support.
You just keep changing the subject to dodge the issue.
Woz was not asked if he would return to run Apple as CEO.
He was asked if he would return to Apple -- he said yes if asked.
In his prior stint at Apple he was perfectly happy being an engineer -- a damned good engineer!
He benefited Apple, Apple customers and himself.
Your continued efforts to avoid addressing the issues and statements that you made concerning Woz's qualifications as an engineer -- have caused me to lose any respect I had for your opinion and sense of reason.
To my mind, that makes you just another troll to be ignored!
If you have any balls, step up to the plate and either support the statements you made or apologize for being wrong.
Otherwise, you are not worth the time or effort.
Who is the INSANE MORON behind this idea?
What "idea"?
Woz was asked a question and gave a response.
Suggesting "bringing him back" is insane!
Did we read the same article? I don't see that suggestion anywhere.
The Wuz would replace Jobs about as well as Obama would replace Ronald Reagan. Want to know a sure fire way to shit can Apple into the annals of history (kill the company)... put The Wuz in charge of it.
Again, I don't think you read the same article. Nothing was even hinted at Woz replacing Jobs or being in charge of anything.
Perhaps you should check your meds before you get all fired up over some other article you may have read somewhere else.
Who is the INSANE MORON behind this idea? The Wuz? I'm sorry but you pathetic idiots don't seem to have noticed that while Jobs went off and started Next and Pixar when given the axe by Apple..... what did "The Wuz" do????
NOTHING IDIOTS!
Suggesting "bringing him back" is insane! The Wuz would replace Jobs about as well as Obama would replace Ronald Reagan. Want to know a sure fire way to shit can Apple into the annals of history (kill the company)... put The Wuz in charge of it.
Gee.... I wonder what would happen if I took this loaded gun and put it against my temple and pulled this funny little thing called a trigger... I think.
You're a freaking MORON if you think this is a good idea. Also... isn't he still drawing a paycheck from Apple... so in essence... he's already still there.... DOING NOTHING!!!!
It would be nice if you dialed back on the harsh language.
Also, leave politics out of it. If you have a political axe to grind, Political Outsider is the place to put it, even then, go to a politics oriented site with that.
As it is, I think you can stand to learn how to post like a reasonable adult. If you can't respect people enough to use their names and nicknames properly, it may be best to not post about them.
Help me out here...
Quite a few posters here have said that time and technology have passed Woz by, implying that he no longer has the "chops" required to design circuts fot "Today's" devices.
What has changed?
Don't transistors perform the same functions the same way as they did 30 years ago? (or even 60 years ago with vacuum tubes)
Aren't circuits just a bunch of transistors hooked together in a certain way to accomplish a given result?
Is the processes of physically designing, prototyping and validating the logic of a circuit that much different than it was 30 years ago?
I can't believe that circuit design begins with laying out transistor traces on a silicon wafer -- that's the end product.
I suspect that the tools have advanced from wire-wrapped circuit boards to computer design tools. But those are just different (more powerful) tools -- which can be readily learned.
If the process is the same what has changed to make obsolete someone with circuit design talent?
I have always viewed circuit design, much like painting -- a combination of inspiration, vision, natural creative talent and persistence.
Take a good artist for example, who uses oils and a easel -- does he become obsolete because of the advent of Photoshop. or, later, one of the painting tools on the iPad?
Nah! If the good artist wants, he can learn the new tools to help express his talent.
How is that different from a good circuit designer?
From my own experiences in this area, I can tell you that circuits and circuit design has changed dramatically. We went from an era of mostly discreet designs with two to at most, four layer boards, to IC designs with four to six layer boards, to surface mount chips with as many as twelve layer boards. That's just a start. The tools, both software and hardware are much more sophisticated and expensive than they were back then. In fact, the field is almost unrecognizable. The sophistication of the circuits are vastly greater.
The question of whether guys like him bother to keep up is a fair one. He's pretty wealthy, and doesn't do grunt work. Has he had to keep up? That's a fair question as well. While he most likely knows the general trends and aspects of what's out there, it's very possible that he doesn't know the hands on design information guys working in these fields know now.
I have that same problem even though I keep my hand in, and continue reading a number of industry publications as well. But without having the need of a working engineer in the field to keep really up to date, there's lots of things I don't know well enough to be able to work with without having to go back and taking courses again.
While I would never claim to be as ingenious as he was at Apple, I likely know about as much, as do many thousands of others. There are many thousands of others who know much more, because they are current, and are doing work on a daily basis.
He hasn't had the need to do that for many years.
No!
You've been challenged several times on things you claim to be true but can't support.
You just keep changing the subject to dodge the issue.
Woz was not asked if he would return to run Apple as CEO.
He was asked if he would return to Apple -- he said yes if asked.
In his prior stint at Apple he was perfectly happy being an engineer -- a damned good engineer!
He benefited Apple, Apple customers and himself.
Your continued efforts to avoid addressing the issues and statements that you made concerning Woz's qualifications as an engineer -- have caused me to lose any respect I had for your opinion and sense of reason.
To my mind, that makes you just another troll to be ignored!
If you have any balls, step up to the plate and either support the statements you made or apologize for being wrong.
Otherwise, you are not worth the time or effort.
Sorry, but YOU are the one who has taken the position that Woz would be an asset. So far, you haven't provided a shred of evidence that he would be.
My position is simple - if you'd take the time to understand it instead of spewing your endless straw man arguments:
1. What Woz did 30 years ago doesn't prove that he's qualified to do ANYTHING at Apple today.
2. The computer industry has changed immensely in 30 years.
3. Apple has changed immensely in 30 years.
4. What it takes to contribute at Apple today is vastly different than what it took 30 years ago.
Now, if you have evidence to support your claim that Woz would be an asset, feel free to support it. But "he was smart 30 years ago" isn't evidence that he could contribute a darned thing to Apple today.
The other factor is that we know for a fact that he can't keep his mouth shut. He has blabbed a number of important trade secrets that he had access to. That alone creates a massive barrier to his return in any significant role.
Now, please provide the evidence that Woz knows ANYTHING that would be useful to Apple today or stop making that same stupid assertion over and over.
From my own experiences in this area, I can tell you that circuits and circuit design has changed dramatically. We went from an era of mostly discreet designs with two to at most, four layer boards, to IC designs with four to six layer boards, to surface mount chips with as many as twelve layer boards. That's just a start. The tools, both software and hardware are much more sophisticated and expensive than they were back then. In fact, the field is almost unrecognizable. The sophistication of the circuits are vastly greater.
The question of whether guys like him bother to keep up is a fair one. He's pretty wealthy, and doesn't do grunt work. Has he had to keep up? That's a fair question as well. While he most likely knows the general trends and aspects of what's out there, it's very possible that he doesn't know the hands on design information guys working in these fields know now.
I have that same problem even though I keep my hand in, and continue reading a number of industry publications as well. But without having the need of a working engineer in the field to keep really up to date, there's lots of things I don't know well enough to be able to work with without having to go back and taking courses again.
While I would never claim to be as ingenious as he was at Apple, I likely know about as much, as do many thousands of others. There are many thousands of others who know much more, because they are current, and are doing work on a daily basis.
He hasn't had the need to do that for many years.
Thanks Mel!
Thats the first logical explanation of any detail, that anyone has posted.
Do people build actual (physical) test circuits anymore -- or is it all done with test simulation on computers?
How would a guy like Woz, experiment in today's environment -- seeing if he could get the same results with fewer chips/transistors; or get additional results from existing chips/transistors. This was one of Woz's strengths.
My Dad started out in the late 1930s, as a self-taught electrical wizz -- crystal radios, car radios, invented/adapted universal turn signals, headlight dimmers, and that little light that blinked if you got a phone call while you were out... starting with vacuum tubes all the way through transistors, then semiconductors. He built his own Hi-Fis, Stereos, theremins, electric organs -- but first he had to build his test equipment -- oscilloscopes, signal generators, etc.
His last invention was in 1990 -- he developed a solid state device which sat between the battery and the battery cable. It would monitor battery strength -- and disconnect the battery if it reached the threshold needed to start the car.
I mention this, because Dad never had any formal training -- just visualized things and tinkered around to make it happen.
He actually bought an Apple ][, a few weeks before I got mine -- total surprise to both of us.
He almost drooled when I introduced him to Woz.
The point: I would say that technology changed quite a bit in the 50 + years -- yet he was able to keep his "hand in" and remain a vital contributor.
Sorry, but YOU are the one who has taken the position that Woz would be an asset. So far, you haven't provided a shred of evidence that he would be.
My position is simple - if you'd take the time to understand it instead of spewing your endless straw man arguments:
1. What Woz did 30 years ago doesn't prove that he's qualified to do ANYTHING at Apple today.
2. The computer industry has changed immensely in 30 years.
3. Apple has changed immensely in 30 years.
4. What it takes to contribute at Apple today is vastly different than what it took 30 years ago.
Now, if you have evidence to support your claim that Woz would be an asset, feel free to support it. But "he was smart 30 years ago" isn't evidence that he could contribute a darned thing to Apple today.
The other factor is that we know for a fact that he can't keep his mouth shut. He has blabbed a number of important trade secrets that he had access to. That alone creates a massive barrier to his return in any significant role.
Now, please provide the evidence that Woz knows ANYTHING that would be useful to Apple today or stop making that same stupid assertion over and over.
That's rather stupid to think he can't be an asset. I'm sure my mom can be an asset at Apple. Do you know what "asset" means? Being of use. I'm sure any person with a brain can be of some use somehow, let alone Woz.
The question is an asset at what? What role are you envisioning Woz can't be an asset in? Engineering? Let's just assume that Woz has been not keeping up with the advances. You think Woz is so stupid that he can't pick it up quickly. Where is your evidence of Woz's stupidity as an engineer? You assume that he has forgotten even the basics so completely that he cannot even be an asset?
The only "evidence" is that he has the experience and the background. Where is your evidence of his lack of knowledge?
Your argument is ludicrous.
That's rather stupid to think he can't be an asset. I'm sure my mom can be an asset at Apple. Do you know what "asset" means? Being of use. I'm sure any person with a brain can be of some use somehow, let alone Woz.
So Apple should hire everyone on the planet. After all, everyone on the planet has some use, right?
That's an incredibly stupid argument.
The question is an asset at what? What role are you envisioning Woz can't be an asset in? Engineering? Let's just assume that Woz has been not keeping up with the advances. You think Woz is so stupid that he can't pick it up quickly. Where is your evidence of Woz's stupidity as an engineer? You assume that he has forgotten even the basics so completely that he cannot even be an asset?
No, I'm not assuming anything. I stated the facts. The world has changed. Apple has changed. Computers have changed. I never said that Woz hasn't kept up. What I said is that no one has presented any evidence that he has kept up - and unless someone can demonstrate that he could contribute at a level to justify his salary, it would be a waste of time to hire him. No one has refuted that.
From what I've seen of his recent behavior (not to mention all the whining from the Woz fans here), he might have some minor value as a PR figurehead. I don't see any evidence that he could do any more than that. But feel free to present it if you can.
The only "evidence" is that he has the experience and the background. Where is your evidence of his lack of knowledge?
Your argument is ludicrous.
I don't have to prove anything. I simply stated that the world has changed and Apple has changed and the fact that Woz was a great guy 30 years ago doesn't mean that he's be of any real value today.
So far, no one has shown ANY evidence that he WOULD be a significant asset today.
So it's YOUR argument that's ludicrous.
I still don't get the people who want to assign a specific role to Woz within Apple then say he is unqualified for that role. He wouldn't be brought back to be CEO, he also wouldn't be brought back to be lead engineer on iPad 3. You keep wanting to bring up what he has or hasn't done since leaving Apple. He finished college. He volunteers his time to teach school. You know, he might just have some insight to bring to Apple in education. It's clearly something he has a passion for.
And I'm still waiting for your response to my SmallTalk post - a language that hasn't changed in 30 years but not only still gets used, but still gets copied in the so called modern languages. You seemed as certain about the history of object oriented programming as you have about everything else you said in this discussion. It was a central point to your countering my claim not all that much has changed in the last 30 years aside from scale and speed. The hottest new product on the planet, the iPad, is a copy of a 1968 idea that is programmed with a copy of a 1980 programming language. Only it's lost about 1/3 of the original design goals along the way.
Thanks Mel!
Thats the first logical explanation of any detail, that anyone has posted.
Do people build actual (physical) test circuits anymore -- or is it all done with test simulation on computers?
How would a guy like Woz, experiment in today's environment -- seeing if he could get the same results with fewer chips/transistors; or get additional results from existing chips/transistors. This was one of Woz's strengths.
My Dad started out in the late 1930s, as a self-taught electrical wizz -- crystal radios, car radios, invented/adapted universal turn signals, headlight dimmers, and that little light that blinked if you got a phone call while you were out... starting with vacuum tubes all the way through transistors, then semiconductors. He built his own Hi-Fis, Stereos, theremins, electric organs -- but first he had to build his test equipment -- oscilloscopes, signal generators, etc.
His last invention was in 1990 -- he developed a solid state device which sat between the battery and the battery cable. It would monitor battery strength -- and disconnect the battery if it reached the threshold needed to start the car.
I mention this, because Dad never had any formal training -- just visualized things and tinkered around to make it happen.
He actually bought an Apple ][, a few weeks before I got mine -- total surprise to both of us.
He almost drooled when I introduced him to Woz.
The point: I would say that technology changed quite a bit in the 50 + years -- yet he was able to keep his "hand in" and remain a vital contributor.
Most things are modeled on computer before doing any actual physical work. Computer design programs are very sophisticated these days, and a lot of work can be done by telling the program what you need in the circuit. But that's only at the first level. You still end up doing most of the work. Same thing with circuit board programs. The program can do most of it, but stops at certain points when human decisions need to be made. But it often takes teams of M.S.EE and Phd level people to do anything really complex.
It's become really hard to be an inventor in a garage these days and come up with something really important in this field; especially in the field of computers and communications.
On the other hand, manufacturers supply fact sheets with devices, or you can download them when trying out a circuit. So people without much training can actually work on simpler designs themselves. I hate to admit it, but I do that as well.
That's rather stupid to think he can't be an asset. I'm sure my mom can be an asset at Apple. Do you know what "asset" means? Being of use. I'm sure any person with a brain can be of some use somehow, let alone Woz.
The question is an asset at what? What role are you envisioning Woz can't be an asset in? Engineering? Let's just assume that Woz has been not keeping up with the advances. You think Woz is so stupid that he can't pick it up quickly. Where is your evidence of Woz's stupidity as an engineer? You assume that he has forgotten even the basics so completely that he cannot even be an asset?
The only "evidence" is that he has the experience and the background. Where is your evidence of his lack of knowledge?
Your argument is ludicrous.
It's not so simple. Woz isn't just anyone. He can't go to work at Apple in most positions because of his visibility. It would be very hard for most people at Apple to work shoulder to shoulder with him. So where would he fit in?
This isn't a case of putting the guy down. He's a smart dude, no doubt. But he and Jobs had a falling out some time ago, and how that would work out isn't known either. And no, technically, he would be at a disadvantage. It's not that easy to catch up if you haven been in the field for a couple of decades. He's been more of a dilettante for some time now than a person working in the mines. You don't just "pick it up".
But he could do something else, right? What would they NEED that he could do? That's different than hiring him just to make him feel good. It might be fun to see him back at Apple, but I really can't think of a position that he could fill without moving someone else out of it. Director of Special Projects? I don't know. Come up with something that sounds real.
apple has countless billions in the bank and you're worried about the salary they'd pay Woz if he came back? Guess what, they never stopped paying his salary.
I still don't get the people who want to assign a specific role to Woz within Apple then say he is unqualified for that role. He wouldn't be brought back to be CEO, he also wouldn't be brought back to be lead engineer on iPad 3. You keep wanting to bring up what he has or hasn't done since leaving Apple. He finished college. He volunteers his time to teach school. You know, he might just have some insight to bring to Apple in education. It's clearly something he has a passion for.
And I'm still waiting for your response to my SmallTalk post - a language that hasn't changed in 30 years but not only still gets used, but still gets copied in the so called modern languages. You seemed as certain about the history of object oriented programming as you have about everything else you said in this discussion. It was a central point to your countering my claim not all that much has changed in the last 30 years aside from scale and speed. The hottest new product on the planet, the iPad, is a copy of a 1968 idea that is programmed with a copy of a 1980 programming language. Only it's lost about 1/3 of the original design goals along the way.
I'm not getting in the middle of your argument, but I've read your posts, and don't understand what it is that you would think they would want him back to do. This isn't a matter of Woz going to Apple and asking for a real job. They would have to decide that he would be an asset. The fact that they haven't, likely shows that they don't think he would be.
No point in getting mad at people who also don't think he would be. If Apple hired him and people here denigrated the hire, then you could counter their points because Apple would think he's an asset. But as this is not even speculative now, thinking that he would be is pretty much fantasy. All that happened was that he was asked if he would go back if asked, and he said that if he were asked, he would think about it. This isn't much to go on. Truth is, I'm not even certain if he would feel comfortable about going back.
It's not so simple. Woz isn't just anyone. He can't go to work at Apple in most positions because of his visibility. It would be very hard for most people at Apple to work shoulder to shoulder with him. So where would he fit in?
This isn't a case of putting the guy down. He's a smart dude, no doubt. But he and Jobs had a falling out some time ago, and how that would work out isn't known either. And no, technically, he would be at a disadvantage. It's not that easy to catch up if you haven been in the field for a couple of decades. He's been more of a dilettante for some time now than a person working in the mines. You don't just "pick it up".
But he could do something else, right? What would they NEED that he could do? That's different than hiring him just to make him feel good. It might be fun to see him back at Apple, but I really can't think of a position that he could fill without moving someone else out of it. Director of Special Projects? I don't know. Come up with something that sounds real.
I'm not the one saying he would be NO asset whatsoever. The test you set out is also frankly absurd. There are very, very, very few positions where one specific person is *needed*. Even I would say, Steve Jobs is not *needed*. That's saying a company would not survive without that person. Of course under such an extreme requirement Woz is not needed. Who is *needed*? We are all, I'm afraid to say expendable. Can they find a position in which he can contribute meaningfully? I'm sure there are. He's not stupid and to make it out as if he is lacks any credibility.
And I would like to say that you also, like the other poster, seem to say that Woz would be no 'asset'. As I said earlier, either find another terminology or be more clear in exactly what you are saying.
It's not so simple. Woz isn't just anyone. He can't go to work at Apple in most positions because of his visibility. It would be very hard for most people at Apple to work shoulder to shoulder with him. So where would he fit in?
This isn't a case of putting the guy down. He's a smart dude, no doubt. But he and Jobs had a falling out some time ago, and how that would work out isn't known either. And no, technically, he would be at a disadvantage. It's not that easy to catch up if you haven been in the field for a couple of decades. He's been more of a dilettante for some time now than a person working in the mines. You don't just "pick it up".
But he could do something else, right? What would they NEED that he could do? That's different than hiring him just to make him feel good. It might be fun to see him back at Apple, but I really can't think of a position that he could fill without moving someone else out of it. Director of Special Projects? I don't know. Come up with something that sounds real.
Also, please point out to me evidence where he hasn't been keeping up with the field? You know what he does in his spare time? Do you know whether he has or has not been reading up on it? Tinkering? Etc? Do you know what he knows now? Do you know how much he has or has not forgotten? Do you know the ease with which he may pick up the material again?
Assumptions can be misleading.
I'm not the one saying he would be NO asset whatsoever. The test you set out is also frankly absurd. There are very, very, very few positions where one specific person is *needed*. Even I would say, Steve Jobs is not *needed*. That's saying a company would not survive without that person. Of course under such an extreme requirement Woz is not needed. Who is *needed*? We are all, I'm afraid to say expendable. Can they find a position in which he can contribute meaningfully? I'm sure there are. He's not stupid and to make it out as if he is lacks any credibility.
And I would like to say that you also, like the other poster, seem to say that Woz would be no 'asset'. As I said earlier, either find another terminology or be more clear in exactly what you are saying.
Have you ever run a company? I've had two. Yes, you hire someone because the position you're hiring them for needs a person with those skills.
You aren't coming up with anything useful for him to do there. So you think he could do something with education? Apple's got a division that deals with education. What would he do there? What position would he fill? Where would he fit between the person below, and the person above? Who would be his boss? Who, if anyone, would he be in charge of? Exactly what would be his job?
You seem to think this is easy. It's not. He's too well known to just hire to do a task. There has to be a specific position he would fill. They could make one up, but what would it be?
I'm being very clear in what I've been saying. You, however, haven't said anything clear, other that saying that Apple should hire him because, well, he's the Woz, and they can figure something out for him to do.
I've asked you to be specific, and come up with a viable position for him that would be a significant reason for Apple to want to hire him. You haven done that. All you're doing is attacking our positions. I've been very careful to give good, solid business reasons why I don't see a purpose to his hire, while you've given nothing at all to show why they should.
It isn't good enough for you to say that he's the Woz, and therefor Apple would benefit from him being there. That's no reason at all. Obviously, apple doesn't agree, as I've also stated. You have to find a reason why they are wrong. You haven't.