<span style="color:rgb(26,26,26);font-family:Hevetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:15px;line-height:24.366666793823242px;">Have you ever gone to an automobile dealer's parts store? I can remember having to buy a rear tail light assembly. Cost from dealer was $295.00. Same assembly from a NAPA store or from an internet parts store was just about half of that.</span>
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<span style="color:rgb(26,26,26);font-family:Hevetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:15px;line-height:24.366666793823242px;">The fact is that Apple uses and sells the same memory modules that you and I can buy from Crucial and OWC. Some folks may feel more comfortable about buying extra memory from Apple and have them install it but don't kid yourself into thinking Apple memory is anything special. Of all the bad memory I have had over the years nearly all of it was Apple RAM. (not made by them but installed with computer). They could be more generous with RAM upgrade prices and it wouldn't hurt their profits at all. Few if any bother upgrading by BTO due to their extremely high prices. More RAM would also tend to make happier customers since they would get a better experience. </span>
Napa isn't OEM parts now is it? You say OEM "quality" but that's not OEM, so it's not a fair comparison. And as far as Crucial and OWC, again not OEM. We can debate their quality all we want, but Apple pays OEM prices, so you can bet they will charge you OEM prices. So perhaps your complaint is you'd like Apple to use another RAM manufacturer to reduce costs. Well fine, that's your prerogative, but again that isn't a design issue.
The key questions being: how often will it need to be serviced? How easy will it be for a customer to get it replaced? You can be 99% sure Apple has these bases covered.
Hard drives would be my primary concern. The imac is still using standard drives, which are known for their lack of reliability. This isn't unique to Apple or any one company. They're simply sourced parts. There's always an emphasis on regular backups as these things can die without warning. I'd hate to see that brick a computer. Memory is rarely upgraded later. The one thing diy offers there is cheaper ram upgrades. I always suggest people test memory as soon as it arrives for bad sticks. DOA (including runs with occasional errors) is much more common than memory failure.
In other news, iShipit, who makes money shipping Macs, dings the new iMac for weighing over 16 ounces. iPaintit warns shoppers that the machine is tricky to paint. iSinkit decries the lack of waterproofing, and iEatit bemoans the lack of fruits and vegetables used in construction.
But only iFixit gets the free press.
Meanwhile, 10 of 10 iMacs Apple tries to fix... somehow get fixed.
You forget to mention that the iMac doesn't blend worth a hoot...!!!
Of course it's serviceable - you take it to the Genius Bar and they either fix it for you or give you a new one.
I'm too old, too busy and make too much money to waste my time effing with a busted PC. I have people to do that. I'd no more screw around with a broken computer than I would with a broken washing machine. And I'm certain that 99% of the people who can afford an iMac feel the exact same way.
I have an EE degree and plenty of lab equipment, but I have zero interest in opening an iMac to troubleshoot. The day of the "build-your-own" computer is coming to an end, especially portable computers. The hardware computer-geek is becoming an endangered species. Even Woz has hung up his soldering iron.
Now I know there are people that would dispute me on this, but I've owned Macs starting with the 128K Mac to a 27" iMac and have not had a single repair issue in all these years... including my laptops from a Duo to a MBP. Every HD has rum flawlessly until the day I unplug the Mac and set it aside for my newer Mac. I've only upgraded the RAM three times in my Macs in the last 28 years. Macs just work. All this crap about repairability must be a Windows PC thing, but it's not an Apple thing.
Have you ever gone to an automobile dealer's parts store? I can remember having to buy a rear tail light assembly. Cost from dealer was $295.00. Same assembly from a NAPA store or from an internet parts store was just about half of that.
What you said. That's why so many of us buy our RAM and drives from third parties and install them ourselves upon delivery rather than paying Apple's double-the-going-rate prices for those components. Ipso facto, that's why so many of us are choked about Apple making it so dogdamn difficult to get inside their machines. Either let us do it ourselves or bring the prices of BTO within the realm of reason.
Don't even get me started about soldered RAM or device-specific storage so we have no choice AT ALL while charging DOUBLE the going rate!
Well, duh. Is there anyone on the planet who didn't already know this?
Apple chose a design tradeoff. A system that's thinner, lighter, more rigid, and more reliable instead of one that's more easily repairable (presumably based on the fact that very few Mac owners ever upgrade their computers while everyone benefits from greater reliability and less resources used).
If you're not happy with that tradeoff, buy something else.
Being able to upgrade is one thing, being able to fix is another.
Hard disk are known to fail a lot more than memory or other computer components.
So it's a real problem that they cannot be replaced easily.
The key questions being: how often will it need to be serviced?
I can only tell from my experience: probably never. I have had 24" iMac as a TV and media center in my living room for 5 years. And it has never needed service. Amazing machine.
The iMac is not an upgradable computer, yes in the past we could easily upgrade RAM, now it seems Apple wants us to order it with the amount we need online, weather or not you need an upgrade keep in mind that the direction Apple is heading is for a consumer oriented devices, meaning: you just turn them on and enjoy!
I do hope that they won't kill the Mac Pro so that professionals can still use Macs for their work, in the meantime try and order online with all the specs you really need: RAM, CPU, HDD...
for me the real hassle is for people that don't have an Apple Store in their reach because of repair issues, other than that I don't see any other issue here.. well only the $2.000 that I need to buy a new one.
I agree. The hard disk is my only real concern here. I have a 17" MBP whose hard disk broke within warranty. I found that as I live in a country where there are no Apple stores (only resellers) that I would have to send it away and the repair could take up to 2 weeks. So, I just chose to pop in a new drive myself - no real problem, and hard drives don't cost that much.
But if the same were to happen with one of these, there is no way I would want to start messing about trying to get that screen off!
In general experience I have found that after about 3 or 4 years of daily use, quite a high percentage of hard drives begin to fail. I have had to change them about 6 times on various machine here. So I'm guessing that there will be lots of out of warranty repairs being needed for broken hard drives and they are not going to be easy to perform!
Even in a professional context, users seldom upgrade.
I work in the computer industry and find "professionals" with MacBook Pros still using the base 2GB of memory that came with the laptop.
Even more surprising when some of them make a living on Photoshop which hs a direct performance impact on systems low on memory.
You are right. The term 'professionals' used in the graphics world really covers two distinctly different groups I've found after being in this business since its inception. Those that are into the tech as much as the graphics and they do upgrade everything an anything they can. Then there is the other group, those that simply use the equipment to churn out their client's needs with little or no more interest in the equipment than they would a box of pencils. The latter group are often still using old Macs and really old versions of Adobe's or other graphics programs. In fact they dread the thought of even having to learn a new version of their own software in many cases. I know a graphics guy that uses a G4 and Quark Express and never went near the 'whole web thing'. Print is all he is interested in.
Regarding the MacFixit folks comments. It's kind of like the two man, corner garage complaining they can't do anything with a new BMW's engine because they have none of the computer equipment or specialized tools, let alone the knowledge. Times move on. Heck as a student I had to replace my own cylinder head gasket and all the break pipes to keep my junker running, now I can barely recognize what's under the hood of a vehicle. As others have said this is the price of progress. The folks at MacFixit should be planning alternative careers or plan to specialize on old equipment repairs, perhaps setting up in a corner garage?
Being able to upgrade is one thing, being able to fix is another.
Hard disk are known to fail a lot more than memory or other computer components.
So it's a real problem that they cannot be replaced easily.
J.
On RAM and Drives I do agree things should be easier even if the designs make all else return to Apple. I'd like to see the 'disk' part of any Mac of the future, which will be SSD I'm sure, be what I'd term 'pop in pop out' for upgrade, requiring only the release of a safety catch. In fact there should be a second SSD on a MBPro and it should be 'hot swappable' IMHO. Literally the 1 TB floppy of the future. At the very least the higher end Macs should support this kind of flexibility even if consumer models don't.
I have an EE degree and plenty of lab equipment, but I have zero interest in opening an iMac to troubleshoot. The day of the "build-your-own" computer is coming to an end, especially portable computers. The hardware computer-geek is becoming an endangered species. Even Woz has hung up his soldering iron.
Now I know there are people that would dispute me on this, but I've owned Macs starting with the 128K Mac to a 27" iMac and have not had a single repair issue in all these years... including my laptops from a Duo to a MBP. Every HD has rum flawlessly until the day I unplug the Mac and set it aside for my newer Mac. I've only upgraded the RAM three times in my Macs in the last 28 years. Macs just work. All this crap about repairability must be a Windows PC thing, but it's not an Apple thing.
I wouldn't dispute that a bit. No one asks about upgrading the RAM in their DVD player or the processor in their TV. It's an appliance - and computers have become an appliance in recent years.
What you said. That's why so many of us buy our RAM and drives from third parties and install them ourselves upon delivery rather than paying Apple's double-the-going-rate prices for those components. Ipso facto, that's why so many of us are choked about Apple making it so dogdamn difficult to get inside their machines. Either let us do it ourselves or bring the prices of BTO within the realm of reason.
Don't even get me started about soldered RAM or device-specific storage so we have no choice AT ALL while charging DOUBLE the going rate!
First, find a PC vendor who doesn't charge a lot for RAM upgrades. EVERYONE does it. When you buy an option for your car, do you think the manufacturer is offering upgrades at cost? Obviously not.
Second, the "I can buy cheapo RAM and install it in my Mac" arguments are not really relevant. Apple doesn't use cheapo RAM and there are plenty of cases where cheapo RAM has caused problems. Apple's motherboards require good quality RAM - which is not the $29 for 8 GB garbage that people are talking about. Buying Apple-quality RAM might save you 40% at best.
And, again, it's not an important issue for the majority of computer owners. Few people ever upgrade their computers - and I expect that the number will continue to decline. At one time, even the newest, fastest computers might still limit your work, but today, even the cheapest computer you can buy is more than fast enough for a huge percentage of people. There's just not much need to add more RAM later. Get what you need when you buy it. If your circumstances change, a dealer won't charge you that much to install it.
As I've explained before, there are tradeoffs. Making things less accessible allows Apple to make a more rigid, reliable, lighter, less resource intensive computer. At one time, it was quite common for people with new computers to have problems from components that came loose during shipping. With today's Macs, that doesn't seem to happen much. In fact, with the MBA, I don't think I've ever heard of that type of problem. It also improves the long term reliability. So, essentially, Apple is giving EVERYONE a better, more reliable, lighter computer and in return, the very small number of people who might need to upgrade their RAM (or who want to save a few dollars by not buying enough RAM at first) will pay a little bit to have RAM installed or learn to do it themselves. I think that's a very fair trade.
#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; } iFixit is the Grover Norquist of Apple fixibility. And their hubris will end their relevance as well.
No, it's not irrelevant. There is a clear distinction between user-accessible and user-replaceable when the subject clearly referred to RAM and not to gaining access to the RAM. Access to the fuel tank for refueling your car is user-accessible but your fuel tank is not user replaceable and it's still to suggest that these terms are interchangeable.
OK, you win. You can replace it, but you cannot access it.
Seems obvious to me that Apple does their research and it shows the majority of their customers aren't concerned about user upgradable/repairable devices. They don't build things to please iFixit or the tiny percentage of geeks who have to be able to get inside their machines and tinker.
I said this before before and I'll say it again if you don't like it buy it. No one at Apple is putting a gun to your head forcing you to buy their products. The best way to send Apple a message is to just stop buying their stuff. I bet that won't happen though. I bet they'll sell out of these iMacs and the people who get them home and start using them will love them (I've already seen one such review on MacRumors, especially giving thumbs up to the display and the reduction in glare). The people that will bitch are those who probably had no intention of buying an iMac in the first place (like the majority of commenters on c|net, Engadget, the Verge, etc.).
Isn't the Mac Pro assembled in the USA too? Perhaps it's in the same assembly plant since I would assume they could be slowing down production of the Mac Pro for the upgrade.
They can write whatever they want but why we have to care about it?
I'm not understanding your query. We don't have to care about iFixit... or Apple or MS or our neighbors or world peace... but for iFixit's audience or anyone that would consider upgrading, modding, or repairing their detailed teardowns can be indispensable.
For instance, without their teardown of this 21.5" iMac I would have made the assumption that the 5400 RPM HDD was a 2.5" drive and the SSD would be a card that plugs into a mini-PCIe slot on the logic board. I would have been correct on those points, but this now confirms it.
However, I would have been incorrect in assuming that the you could buy the 21.5" iMac without the Fusion drive and then upgrade it later by buying and inserting any number of SSD cards.
If Apple is going to knocked for being "cheap" with this machine I think the exclusion of the mini-PCIe slot for the SSD card is where any vitriol should be focused.
PS: The likelihood of a 2TB 2.5" HDDs and 16GB RAM modules (max 32GB) within the feasible life span of this machine, plus the socketed CPU that can be replaced I personally think a guitar pick and screwdriver would be worth increasing the life span and performance of this machine down the road.
I'm surprised by some of the posters here suggesting that ordinary, non-technical users don't install RAM. My last purchase was a Mac Mini and I saved a considerable amount of money on the RAM even allowing for the fact that I took out the Apple minimum supplied RAM and threw it away!
It's actually quite easy for us 'ordinary' users - the Mac Mini has an excellently written and illustrated manual. These manuals have been a great Apple tradition for years! And buying from the Crucial website is easy because it's got a guide to exactly which Mac requires which type of RAM.
There are millions of users and it's impossible to generalise on their requirements, so in my opinion this Imac would be a better product if there was user access to the RAM and hard drive for those who need access.
Comments
Napa isn't OEM parts now is it? You say OEM "quality" but that's not OEM, so it's not a fair comparison. And as far as Crucial and OWC, again not OEM. We can debate their quality all we want, but Apple pays OEM prices, so you can bet they will charge you OEM prices. So perhaps your complaint is you'd like Apple to use another RAM manufacturer to reduce costs. Well fine, that's your prerogative, but again that isn't a design issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610
The key questions being: how often will it need to be serviced? How easy will it be for a customer to get it replaced? You can be 99% sure Apple has these bases covered.
Hard drives would be my primary concern. The imac is still using standard drives, which are known for their lack of reliability. This isn't unique to Apple or any one company. They're simply sourced parts. There's always an emphasis on regular backups as these things can die without warning. I'd hate to see that brick a computer. Memory is rarely upgraded later. The one thing diy offers there is cheaper ram upgrades. I always suggest people test memory as soon as it arrives for bad sticks. DOA (including runs with occasional errors) is much more common than memory failure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme
In other news, iShipit, who makes money shipping Macs, dings the new iMac for weighing over 16 ounces. iPaintit warns shoppers that the machine is tricky to paint. iSinkit decries the lack of waterproofing, and iEatit bemoans the lack of fruits and vegetables used in construction.
But only iFixit gets the free press.
Meanwhile, 10 of 10 iMacs Apple tries to fix... somehow get fixed.
You forget to mention that the iMac doesn't blend worth a hoot...!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunspot42
Of course it's serviceable - you take it to the Genius Bar and they either fix it for you or give you a new one.
I'm too old, too busy and make too much money to waste my time effing with a busted PC. I have people to do that. I'd no more screw around with a broken computer than I would with a broken washing machine. And I'm certain that 99% of the people who can afford an iMac feel the exact same way.
I have an EE degree and plenty of lab equipment, but I have zero interest in opening an iMac to troubleshoot. The day of the "build-your-own" computer is coming to an end, especially portable computers. The hardware computer-geek is becoming an endangered species. Even Woz has hung up his soldering iron.
Now I know there are people that would dispute me on this, but I've owned Macs starting with the 128K Mac to a 27" iMac and have not had a single repair issue in all these years... including my laptops from a Duo to a MBP. Every HD has rum flawlessly until the day I unplug the Mac and set it aside for my newer Mac. I've only upgraded the RAM three times in my Macs in the last 28 years. Macs just work. All this crap about repairability must be a Windows PC thing, but it's not an Apple thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac
Have you ever gone to an automobile dealer's parts store? I can remember having to buy a rear tail light assembly. Cost from dealer was $295.00. Same assembly from a NAPA store or from an internet parts store was just about half of that.
What you said. That's why so many of us buy our RAM and drives from third parties and install them ourselves upon delivery rather than paying Apple's double-the-going-rate prices for those components. Ipso facto, that's why so many of us are choked about Apple making it so dogdamn difficult to get inside their machines. Either let us do it ourselves or bring the prices of BTO within the realm of reason.
Don't even get me started about soldered RAM or device-specific storage so we have no choice AT ALL while charging DOUBLE the going rate!
Being able to upgrade is one thing, being able to fix is another.
Hard disk are known to fail a lot more than memory or other computer components.
So it's a real problem that they cannot be replaced easily.
J.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610
The key questions being: how often will it need to be serviced?
I can only tell from my experience: probably never. I have had 24" iMac as a TV and media center in my living room for 5 years. And it has never needed service. Amazing machine.
I do hope that they won't kill the Mac Pro so that professionals can still use Macs for their work, in the meantime try and order online with all the specs you really need: RAM, CPU, HDD...
for me the real hassle is for people that don't have an Apple Store in their reach because of repair issues, other than that I don't see any other issue here.. well only the $2.000 that I need to buy a new one.
I agree. The hard disk is my only real concern here. I have a 17" MBP whose hard disk broke within warranty. I found that as I live in a country where there are no Apple stores (only resellers) that I would have to send it away and the repair could take up to 2 weeks. So, I just chose to pop in a new drive myself - no real problem, and hard drives don't cost that much.
But if the same were to happen with one of these, there is no way I would want to start messing about trying to get that screen off!
In general experience I have found that after about 3 or 4 years of daily use, quite a high percentage of hard drives begin to fail. I have had to change them about 6 times on various machine here. So I'm guessing that there will be lots of out of warranty repairs being needed for broken hard drives and they are not going to be easy to perform!
You are right. The term 'professionals' used in the graphics world really covers two distinctly different groups I've found after being in this business since its inception. Those that are into the tech as much as the graphics and they do upgrade everything an anything they can. Then there is the other group, those that simply use the equipment to churn out their client's needs with little or no more interest in the equipment than they would a box of pencils. The latter group are often still using old Macs and really old versions of Adobe's or other graphics programs. In fact they dread the thought of even having to learn a new version of their own software in many cases. I know a graphics guy that uses a G4 and Quark Express and never went near the 'whole web thing'. Print is all he is interested in.
Regarding the MacFixit folks comments. It's kind of like the two man, corner garage complaining they can't do anything with a new BMW's engine because they have none of the computer equipment or specialized tools, let alone the knowledge. Times move on. Heck as a student I had to replace my own cylinder head gasket and all the break pipes to keep my junker running, now I can barely recognize what's under the hood of a vehicle. As others have said this is the price of progress. The folks at MacFixit should be planning alternative careers or plan to specialize on old equipment repairs, perhaps setting up in a corner garage?
On RAM and Drives I do agree things should be easier even if the designs make all else return to Apple. I'd like to see the 'disk' part of any Mac of the future, which will be SSD I'm sure, be what I'd term 'pop in pop out' for upgrade, requiring only the release of a safety catch. In fact there should be a second SSD on a MBPro and it should be 'hot swappable' IMHO. Literally the 1 TB floppy of the future. At the very least the higher end Macs should support this kind of flexibility even if consumer models don't.
I wouldn't dispute that a bit. No one asks about upgrading the RAM in their DVD player or the processor in their TV. It's an appliance - and computers have become an appliance in recent years.
First, find a PC vendor who doesn't charge a lot for RAM upgrades. EVERYONE does it. When you buy an option for your car, do you think the manufacturer is offering upgrades at cost? Obviously not.
Second, the "I can buy cheapo RAM and install it in my Mac" arguments are not really relevant. Apple doesn't use cheapo RAM and there are plenty of cases where cheapo RAM has caused problems. Apple's motherboards require good quality RAM - which is not the $29 for 8 GB garbage that people are talking about. Buying Apple-quality RAM might save you 40% at best.
And, again, it's not an important issue for the majority of computer owners. Few people ever upgrade their computers - and I expect that the number will continue to decline. At one time, even the newest, fastest computers might still limit your work, but today, even the cheapest computer you can buy is more than fast enough for a huge percentage of people. There's just not much need to add more RAM later. Get what you need when you buy it. If your circumstances change, a dealer won't charge you that much to install it.
As I've explained before, there are tradeoffs. Making things less accessible allows Apple to make a more rigid, reliable, lighter, less resource intensive computer. At one time, it was quite common for people with new computers to have problems from components that came loose during shipping. With today's Macs, that doesn't seem to happen much. In fact, with the MBA, I don't think I've ever heard of that type of problem. It also improves the long term reliability. So, essentially, Apple is giving EVERYONE a better, more reliable, lighter computer and in return, the very small number of people who might need to upgrade their RAM (or who want to save a few dollars by not buying enough RAM at first) will pay a little bit to have RAM installed or learn to do it themselves. I think that's a very fair trade.
#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }
iFixit is the Grover Norquist of Apple fixibility. And their hubris will end their relevance as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Amhran
How dare Apple not consult iFixit on the ease of repair and upgradability before designing their products.
How dare iFixit write an article on the upgradability of an Apple product.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
No, it's not irrelevant. There is a clear distinction between user-accessible and user-replaceable when the subject clearly referred to RAM and not to gaining access to the RAM. Access to the fuel tank for refueling your car is user-accessible but your fuel tank is not user replaceable and it's still to suggest that these terms are interchangeable.
OK, you win. You can replace it, but you cannot access it.
I said this before before and I'll say it again if you don't like it buy it. No one at Apple is putting a gun to your head forcing you to buy their products. The best way to send Apple a message is to just stop buying their stuff. I bet that won't happen though. I bet they'll sell out of these iMacs and the people who get them home and start using them will love them (I've already seen one such review on MacRumors, especially giving thumbs up to the display and the reduction in glare). The people that will bitch are those who probably had no intention of buying an iMac in the first place (like the majority of commenters on c|net, Engadget, the Verge, etc.).
Isn't the Mac Pro assembled in the USA too? Perhaps it's in the same assembly plant since I would assume they could be slowing down production of the Mac Pro for the upgrade.
I'm not understanding your query. We don't have to care about iFixit... or Apple or MS or our neighbors or world peace... but for iFixit's audience or anyone that would consider upgrading, modding, or repairing their detailed teardowns can be indispensable.
For instance, without their teardown of this 21.5" iMac I would have made the assumption that the 5400 RPM HDD was a 2.5" drive and the SSD would be a card that plugs into a mini-PCIe slot on the logic board. I would have been correct on those points, but this now confirms it.
However, I would have been incorrect in assuming that the you could buy the 21.5" iMac without the Fusion drive and then upgrade it later by buying and inserting any number of SSD cards.
If Apple is going to knocked for being "cheap" with this machine I think the exclusion of the mini-PCIe slot for the SSD card is where any vitriol should be focused.
PS: The likelihood of a 2TB 2.5" HDDs and 16GB RAM modules (max 32GB) within the feasible life span of this machine, plus the socketed CPU that can be replaced I personally think a guitar pick and screwdriver would be worth increasing the life span and performance of this machine down the road.
I'm surprised by some of the posters here suggesting that ordinary, non-technical users don't install RAM. My last purchase was a Mac Mini and I saved a considerable amount of money on the RAM even allowing for the fact that I took out the Apple minimum supplied RAM and threw it away!
It's actually quite easy for us 'ordinary' users - the Mac Mini has an excellently written and illustrated manual. These manuals have been a great Apple tradition for years! And buying from the Crucial website is easy because it's got a guide to exactly which Mac requires which type of RAM.
There are millions of users and it's impossible to generalise on their requirements, so in my opinion this Imac would be a better product if there was user access to the RAM and hard drive for those who need access.