And this fact raises an incredible series of other facts that spell out the climate.
-iOS developers have had ample opportunity to go all out, and develop game after game that use iOS device a controller, and Airplayed-content as the primary visual. There is nothing standing in the way of developers pushing for a console gaming experience with iOS device as the controller. There hasn't been anything in the way of that since iOS 5.
....but it hasn't happened save for a handful of not-so popular games. That is all the information anyone ever needs to know that there is NO market for Apps on AppleTV.
Not getting it people? Let me spell it out: NO ONE WANTS IT. WHY? THE EXPERIENCE SUCKS.
Understand that this DOES NOT change at all if tomorrow Apple says, "Apple TV now has App Store. Go get 'em"
The experience of Facebook and Angry Birds and _insert app name_ still would SUCK being used on a TV. There is no if ands or buts about it. I mean don't you get it people? It is not happening because it is NOT GOOD.
There is nothing BETTER, nothing AS GOOD, nothing even ALMOST as good, about TV Apps compared to just using the device in your freaking hand....the one already capable of giving you what you want.
And even if you're still ignorant and think it has some merit: Apple has two choices. 1) Make the iOS device the controller (which they would), which we already know would suck. 2) Take the iOS device out of your hand (freaking never) and give you some dedicated antiquated ridiculous hardware controller for your TV. FAIL.
Well, then, it's a good thing that Apple isn't taking away your ability to buy whatever controller you want for your system.
The entire argument is a waste of time. Different people have different wants and needs. Some are happy with a touch screen. Others want a massive controller with 20 buttons and 3D gyro control.
Except it is not that generic, or simple. Businesses need to make decisions based on the numbers. And those numbers are saying that 90% of people only care to play $0.99 pick-up-and-go mobile gaming to satisfy their wants. The remaining 10% are the people who still give a damn about pre-ordering/lining up for the next $60 game that contains 3 hours of total play time.
Interesting that this debate continues unabated despite the rumor being shot down by the most reliable non-Apple source.
Assuming the developers weren't lying, there is still the matter of why Apple was at GDC and holding secretive meetings under a pseudonym.
That Phil Fish guy (Indie developer) said it was just 5 minutes of business.
They obviously haven't said anything more about it publicly so that would suggest they have some sort of NDA over what they talked about.
Assuming this short meeting happened, it involved at least one high profile Indie developer whose game isn't on iOS. It could just have been a meeting to persuade game developers to author on iOS but why would that be under NDA? They could be implementing tactile/gesture features but that doesn't need developer support before they implement it.
This event either didn't happen and there's some reason the developers are lying about it or Apple's up to something.
If only any of that mattered....at all. No one is going to tell you "you're wrong" about the current comparison between console and ios gaming quality. I AM going to tell you, however, that it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference in the real world, and the financial solvency of console gaming is being sucked into a black hole. The black hole is called mobile gaming, specifically, iOS gaming.
After reading all of what you have said in all your posts (in this page) It gives me the impression of someone that doesn't know the industry, which is OK, its alittle annoying getting told 'how things are' when someone clearing doesn't know how things are.
An example of what people say about iOS gaming, iOS is one of the fastest growing platforms that has games, which isn't really a statistic you can use, if you didn't have a gaming presence, then you start one, its the largest growing (whatever it is) thing, if the users go from 1 to 5, it grew 500% & so on.
What you wrote sounded sorta good, & isn't true (for now at least).
In a few years time, the direction i think games (will eventually take) will be mobile gaming of sorts, when phones are powerful enough (which they truly aren't powerful enough yet) to run next gen quality games, people could walk into their lounge room, sit on the couch, phone in pocket, connected to the TV then you can pick up a controller (which is connected to the phone wirelessly) then you can resume the game.
at that stage id be happy with that, If console & PC games stopped coming out tomorrow & phone games is all there were left, it would be a massive leap backwards, id be very disappointed.
I'm so glad that isn't the reality of this world
PS, the companies that make the systems don't make as much money as the game publishing companies, like your EAs or your Rockstars, they make billions, a high selling console & PC game on opening weekend makes Hollywood block buster money, its a massive industry.
& iOS is a great platform for them to release legacy titles on, so they can make some extra money, on games that are 10 years old & that barely make them any money these days, like GTA 3 10th anniversary release on IOS & old finial fantasys & so on.
Of course there is new upstart companies that make angry birds as an example, the development is cheap (compared to a PC/console game) distribution is taken care of (app store) so there are less hands in the chain so they make money, its only 70c for every dollar (something like that) so profit is high i get that, however, buying an iOS game for a few $ isn't stopping me or anyone else in the main video game buying demographic of 18 & older (average gamers age is 30 years old) from buying PC/Console games (68% of all gamers are 18 & older, 68% of all gamers are 18 & older, I had to say it twice).
33% of all video games are played on phones or (25%) portable systems, which doesn't mean they don't play PC or console games at home.
Which isn't the majority but probably will be in a few years or more, but people would still like to play at home, they aren't mutually exclusive, you don't have to choose between portable gaming or home gaming, we can do both at different times.
I have more i could say, its 3AM here, i should probably stop, just more interesting facts & stats.
This is something I've wanted to see for many years now. I made an attempt to get something moving in this area back in 2009, but hit the intractable problem of Apple itself. Basically, something like this needs system-level support. Unlike Android, iOS doesn't support proper gamepads (with analog controls) over Bluetooth. And developing direct hardware interfaces using the old Dock or current Lightning connector requires a very expensive license from Apple. If you're curious to see the mockup designs, the old site is still up. Maybe it'll be relevant again some day! http://iphoneopengaming.com/iOGA_hardware.html
Unlike Android, iOS doesn't support proper gamepads (with analog controls) over Bluetooth. And developing direct hardware interfaces using the old Dock or current Lightning connector requires a very expensive license from Apple.
They got a patent last year for game controller connectivity:
They've written down playing Prince of Persia Classic Edition.
[VIDEO]
The controller options seem to suggest using NFC to connect possibly a 3rd party controller (I notice they used Sony's controller as an example) to an iOS device or use the iOS device with an on-screen control scheme. It doesn't seem like a very good idea to need an iOS device to be near a 3rd party controller to control say, an Apple TV as you're just running down two sets of batteries. They can make a decent enough standalone controller without that.
Putting iOS devices aside, it's needed for OS X games. There are some big AAA titles on the Mac now like Arkham Asylum and the choices are keyboard and mouse or a 3rd party controller that might not be supported by the game.
If Apple was to build one, it really could be as simple as a Magic Trackpad design with 4 shoulder buttons + gryo and accelerometer. Vibration isn't needed and is usually just annoying but it can have the same vibration you get from an iPhone. Think of a $150 16GB iPod Nano without the display panel and the 16GB of memory and just a basic processing chip. It gets 30 hours of music playback. I suspect wireless connection would be less but the price at least should be reasonable. It can even have a 3.5mm headphone jack on it to save plugging into the source device.
This works for party games too. If you have a group of friends over and want to play some quiz game, you might have 1 iPad and 4 controllers. Split into 4 teams and the teams tap on the 'buzzer' to answer and the iPad knows which one got pressed first. It might be better if it had a display though because you could have card games and things. Although iPods and iPhones do this, they are expensive to buy just for this purpose.
After reading all of what you have said in all your posts (in this page) It gives me the impression of someone that doesn't know the industry, which is OK, its alittle annoying getting told 'how things are' when someone clearing doesn't know how things are.
An example of what people say about iOS gaming, iOS is one of the fastest growing platforms that has games, which isn't really a statistic you can use, if you didn't have a gaming presence, then you start one, its the largest growing (whatever it is) thing, if the users go from 1 to 5, it grew 500% & so on.
What you wrote sounded sorta good, & isn't true (for now at least).
In a few years time, the direction i think games (will eventually take) will be mobile gaming of sorts, when phones are powerful enough (which they truly aren't powerful enough yet) to run next gen quality games, people could walk into their lounge room, sit on the couch, phone in pocket, connected to the TV then you can pick up a controller (which is connected to the phone wirelessly) then you can resume the game.
at that stage id be happy with that, If console & PC games stopped coming out tomorrow & phone games is all there were left, it would be a massive leap backwards, id be very disappointed.
I'm so glad that isn't the reality of this world
PS, the companies that make the systems don't make as much money as the game publishing companies, like your EAs or your Rockstars, they make billions, a high selling console & PC game on opening weekend makes Hollywood block buster money, its a massive industry.
& iOS is a great platform for them to release legacy titles on, so they can make some extra money, on games that are 10 years old & that barely make them any money these days, like GTA 3 10th anniversary release on IOS & old finial fantasys & so on.
Of course there is new upstart companies that make angry birds as an example, the development is cheap (compared to a PC/console game) distribution is taken care of (app store) so there are less hands in the chain so they make money, its only 70c for every dollar (something like that) so profit is high i get that, however, buying an iOS game for a few $ isn't stopping me or anyone else in the main video game buying demographic of 18 & older (average gamers age is 30 years old) from buying PC/Console games (68% of all gamers are 18 & older, 68% of all gamers are 18 & older, I had to say it twice).
33% of all video games are played on phones or (25%) portable systems, which doesn't mean they don't play PC or console games at home.
Which isn't the majority but probably will be in a few years or more, but people would still like to play at home, they aren't mutually exclusive, you don't have to choose between portable gaming or home gaming, we can do both at different times.
I have more i could say, its 3AM here, i should probably stop, just more interesting facts & stats.
Rant over.
After reading all that, it is no way a response to anything I said. 1) Your facts are wrong regarding "games" in general, and 2) You are not counting the people who game exclusively on iOS devices as gamers. You couldn't be, or your numbers wouldn't look like that. Just the number of devices alone tells you all you need to know. Well that + usage/download/purchase statistics as they relate to games. But the number of devices really spells it out, mostly because of the incredibly low number of console devices being sold. Compared against the number of iOS devices, you couldn't even accidentally calculate numbers that look favorable for consoles.
And once you've done the numbers, you have to then get over the notion that it MATTERS, AT ALL that console games are far "better" than iOS games because of hardware. No one is doubting that. But it is turning out to be a NON-factor.
I have to say it twice. "better" games on console does not matter. It is only significant enough to have prevented the all out disintegration of consoles up to this point. Meaning, if they weren't so damn high quality, console gaming would have ENDED, already. We're not talking about beating, we're not talking about keeping up, we're not talking about break even business. We're talking END. GAME OVER, pun intended.
The climate has changed. You have 10s of millions of new buyers of iOS gaming devices every quarter. You have fewer PS consoles sold per quarter than AppleTV. By a few multiples. That is pathetic.
Every console game a physical disc that costs $60, and gives you an average of 2-3 hours of unique play time, unless it is a un-console like game. Only NOW are they beginning to see that this is a poor distribution method, and are looking to move to digital downloads.
Every console is immobile and tethered to your HDTV at home.
Every console itself costs hundreds of dollars and are not as multi function as an iOS device.
compared to....
An iOS device can be had for very cheap, or very expensive. Your choice.
Average game is $1.99, downloads in seconds, and offers endless game play, with the exception of the more console-like games.
Pickup and play, and time, any where, for a minute or for hours.
It is really an unbeatable model. And you can't even argue about console gamers switching their time over to mobile gaming (sacraficing "good" games for "poor" games, as you would say......even though they are!), because the sheer numbers of NEW gamers out weighs it all.
The GAMING DOLLARS are going to attract the Gaming Developers. Yes, developers are going to stop making console games in favor of iOS games, because they stand to make infinitely more money as time goes on.
After reading all that, it is no way a response to anything I said. 1) Your facts are wrong regarding "games" in general, and 2) You are not counting the people who game exclusively on iOS devices as gamers.
That's the whole story right there.
You have a series of "real" gamers who won't play anything less than the latest console or a state of the art PC. Anything less is beneath them and doesn't count.
It's as if Mario Andretti said that everyone drives a 600 HP monster capable of 200 mph, but with no back seat.
It's just best to ignore them. If they want to live in their own world, it doesn't hurt anyone else.
Every console game a physical disc that costs $60, and gives you an average of 2-3 hours of unique play time, unless it is a un-console like game.
I don't remember many AAA titles having 2-3 hours of play time. It's definitely not the average playing time. There are times listed on the following site:
I'd say it's closer to 10 hours but that's for the single player games. Multiplayer games and RPGs can last very long. Skyrim has an average on that site of 190 hours with 10 samples.
Average game is $1.99, downloads in seconds, and offers endless game play, with the exception of the more console-like games.
It depends on how you define 'endless gameplay'. Excel has endless gameplay too if you have fun doing the same basic tasks over and over again. Catapulting an Angry Bird over and over and over can be addictive but it's not entertaining for everyone.
The GAMING DOLLARS are going to attract the Gaming Developers. Yes, developers are going to stop making console games in favor of iOS games, because they stand to make infinitely more money as time goes on.
This isn't really true. Apple has paid out $8b since the beginning of the App Store to all developers combined and most of it is split between the top 25 or so developers. Activision made $1b in the first two weeks from Black Ops 2.
Gameloft last year made about $262m in revenue in 2012:
but that's in terms of return on investment. In terms of overall revenue, it was only $30m.
I'd say iOS is great for Indie developers because it removes the problems of distribution and the quality expectations as well as giving a healthy margin and ensuring every sale is a first-time sale. It can work for AAA developers too but they can't spend $50m making a game and then get $30m in revenue.
Visibility is a big problem too. Steam has about 1100 games total that can be browsed through in half an hour and you can instantly recognise the major titles and know they weren't put together by some kid in a bedroom learning how to make games. The ratio of good quality to poor quality titles is far higher with the AAA development process.
You have a series of "real" gamers who won't play anything less than the latest console or a state of the art PC. Anything less is beneath them and doesn't count.
I wouldn't say that makes up the majority of console and PC gamers. There is a group of gamers that wouldn't even touch a console. But there are simple facts to recognise.
This year, there are 3 very highly rated games out: Tomb Raider, Hitman Absolution and Bioshock Infinite. Not one of those is on an iOS device. So the console and PC market still has an important advantage and that is high quality titles.
People dismiss mobile gaming simply because of a lack of quality titles. If people recommended quality mobile titles rather than simply said that mobile gaming is taking over then perhaps that would change.
So, what are the recommendations for quality iOS titles? I'm sure the lists will be huge as there's so many games to choose from but let's say 5 quality iOS titles released in the last year.
And somehow these things magically cannot be handled by anything but a dedicated controller with hardware buttons? :no: :???:
No, not really. You have to place dedicated objects on the screen, losing screen real estate in the process, or you have to place complicated swiping etc movements, blocking the screen in the process.
I'd rather they defined as new framework for a controller that provided an on screen set of standard controls that could be assigned to a bluetooth controller - maybe work with the industry to nail this down. I'd also hope that they'd submit that spec as a new bluetooth profile (assuming one doesn't already exist - if it does then use that) so any third party manufacturer could build a compatible joypad, joystick, or case, or other similar peripheral. Games could then use part or all of this framework (maybe link it to Game Center), or make up their own.
I don't think gaming and controllers is one of Apple's strengths, so better to provide the infrastructure, and leave the donkey work to the professionals and enthusiasts.
No, not really. You have to place dedicated objects on the screen, losing screen real estate in the process, or you have to place complicated swiping etc movements, blocking the screen in the process.
The idea is that the content being viewed is on the TV. That's the concept here, yeah?
So, what are the recommendations for quality iOS titles? I'm sure the lists will be huge as there's so many games to choose from but let's say 5 quality iOS titles released in the last year.
Final Fantasy 4
GTA Vice City
The World Ends With You
Sonic 4: Episode II
Chaos Rings II
4/5 of those games started on different platforms, and only 1 title is an original title developed exclusively for iOS.
There is definitely high quality gaming to be had on iOS but if you look at the prices of a few of these games, quality = cost, and quite simply people arent buying them like they do .99 or free games.
Isn't it funny that there is over 1 billion smartphones on the planet and even the largest of developers right now like Square Enix and EA are taking massive beatings financially and they support mobile gaming with some of the best stuff out there and take in the lionshare of money made? Isn't this not supposed to happen, as everyone who loves to claim that consoles are going to be wiped out by mobile gaming with Apple yet mobile gaming doesnt even represent 10% of EAs quarterly or yearly revenue.
After reading all that, it is no way a response to anything I said. 1) Your facts are wrong regarding "games" in general, and 2) You are not counting the people who game exclusively on iOS devices as gamers. You couldn't be, or your numbers wouldn't look like that. Just the number of devices alone tells you all you need to know. Well that + usage/download/purchase statistics as they relate to games. But the number of devices really spells it out, mostly because of the incredibly low number of console devices being sold. Compared against the number of iOS devices, you couldn't even accidentally calculate numbers that look favorable for consoles.
And once you've done the numbers, you have to then get over the notion that it MATTERS, AT ALL that console games are far "better" than iOS games because of hardware. No one is doubting that. But it is turning out to be a NON-factor.
I have to say it twice. "better" games on console does not matter. It is only significant enough to have prevented the all out disintegration of consoles up to this point. Meaning, if they weren't so damn high quality, console gaming would have ENDED, already. We're not talking about beating, we're not talking about keeping up, we're not talking about break even business. We're talking END. GAME OVER, pun intended.
The climate has changed. You have 10s of millions of new buyers of iOS gaming devices every quarter. You have fewer PS consoles sold per quarter than AppleTV. By a few multiples. That is pathetic.
Every console game a physical disc that costs $60, and gives you an average of 2-3 hours of unique play time, unless it is a un-console like game. Only NOW are they beginning to see that this is a poor distribution method, and are looking to move to digital downloads.
Every console is immobile and tethered to your HDTV at home.
Every console itself costs hundreds of dollars and are not as multi function as an iOS device.
compared to....
An iOS device can be had for very cheap, or very expensive. Your choice.
Average game is $1.99, downloads in seconds, and offers endless game play, with the exception of the more console-like games.
Pickup and play, and time, any where, for a minute or for hours.
It is really an unbeatable model. And you can't even argue about console gamers switching their time over to mobile gaming (sacraficing "good" games for "poor" games, as you would say......even though they are!), because the sheer numbers of NEW gamers out weighs it all.
The GAMING DOLLARS are going to attract the Gaming Developers. Yes, developers are going to stop making console games in favor of iOS games, because they stand to make infinitely more money as time goes on.
The facts & stats are not with you sir, sorry.
I can't respond to a lot of what you said, because i think you made it up, the numbers i gave are current & legitimate, sorry if that doesn't work for you, you can't fight the night, if you try, just look like a fool throwing punches in the air & in the dark, I'm kidding .... but seriously, stop it
On other topics i might agree with you, not this time, sorry dude, you are not correct, this might all change in the future, just don't see it happening, with the way iOS hardware is set up right now.
To kinda get back on point, I've wanted Apple to bring out a controller from the start of the app store, i think its stopping a lot of gamers from considering iOS as a legitimate gaming system, if a controller comes out, people can play either retro games or some slightly older games, the way they were designed (with analog buttons (sometimes) & precise controls, i know at least 10 people that would buy a control pad for iOS devices, maybe more.
apple is about the experience, the current way of gaming on a touchscreen isn't even close, with a control pad, i could see, apple making a serious run at completely dominating mobile gaming, in the future, all gaming (unlikely), a larger company might then add iOS to its main release schedule with the consoles & PCs then, (with tweaks to make it run better, lower detail & effects) that's when the serious choices might be made, i can't consider iOS for a game like uncharted, because its not released on iOS at all & when the games i do play do come out, like i said before they are at least 10 years old, if a major title gets released on iOS & PS4 at the same time (If apple makes a control pad) i might seriously pick the iOS version for price & convenience.
PS, Totally agree with Marvin, very strong points.
The funny thing is, we are through the first quarter of the year & PC/Consoles have already had a few major realizes, combine the earnings of those games, id be very interesting in seeing what that is, the new 'gears of war' & 'god of war', later this year, 'the last of us', 'GTA5' & 'Watch dogs', GTA5s release will make the news, its that big a deal.
The idea is that the content being viewed is on the TV. That's the concept here, yeah?
So while you are looking the TV you are able to touch the exact place where the virtual controls are placed on a flat smooth screen? And where these virtual controls will be in a different location for every game. Good job if you can, but somehow I don't think you can
Every console game a physical disc that costs $60, and gives you an average of 2-3 hours of unique play time, unless it is a un-console like game. Only NOW are they beginning to see that this is a poor distribution method, and are looking to move to digital downloads.
Rubbish, if you are paying $60 for a console game then learn how to shop around. And the games provide much more than 2.3 hours of play
The GAMING DOLLARS are going to attract the Gaming Developers. Yes, developers are going to stop making console games in favor of iOS games, because they stand to make infinitely more money as time goes on.
How many billion dollar games are there on iOS devices? And how many years out are they?
Rubbish, if you are paying $60 for a console game then learn how to shop around. And the games provide much more than 2.3 hours of play
In NZ all iOS devices (that can play games) are more expensive than the PS3, the Xbox 360, the PS Vita, the iOS devices are far from "cheap"
So in other words, they are small games, with limited features, and limited game play?
How many billion dollar games are there on iOS devices? And how many years out are they?
Way to prove that you've missed the point entirely.
There aren't billion dollar games for iOS devices (AFAIK) simply because the games are cheap and used for 'on the spot' playing. The dedicated gamers who live in their parents' basement and can't stop playing the game long enough to take a shower once a week or so aren't going to be the ones using mobile devices. But they're in the minority. Even with the price difference between iOS games (many of which are free) and console/PC games, mobile has already taken a big (and growing) slice of the pie.
They're different audiences. No one is taking your console game away from you. That market will survive (or not) based on its own characteristics and the success of the people in that market in meeting the needs of the customers. The mobile market is entirely different and it's silly to hold it to the same standards.
Isn't it funny that there is over 1 billion smartphones on the planet and even the largest of developers right now like Square Enix and EA are taking massive beatings financially and they support mobile gaming with some of the best stuff out there and take in the lionshare of money made? Isn't this not supposed to happen, as everyone who loves to claim that consoles are going to be wiped out by mobile gaming with Apple yet mobile gaming doesnt even represent 10% of EAs quarterly or yearly revenue.
Yes, it's mostly the publishers who target consoles that make the most money in mobile so there's no hope of mobile having a negative effect on them.
There aren't billion dollar games for iOS devices (AFAIK) simply because the games are cheap and used for 'on the spot' playing. The dedicated gamers who live in their parents' basement and can't stop playing the game long enough to take a shower once a week or so aren't going to be the ones using mobile devices.
You're right, mobile games don't have enough immersion to keep gamers attached to their screens. There's no emotional connection. That's really the problem that's being highlighted.
Even with the price difference between iOS games (many of which are free) and console/PC games, mobile has already taken a big (and growing) slice of the pie.
It has outgrown PC gaming but is still short of console gaming:
They reckon mobile gaming will make up 20% of revenues by 2016. It's hard to say though because mobile hardware and software APIs will become as powerful as last-gen consoles later this year. That means we'll see more AAA games being ported to the platform. With 100 million or more new customers, it's going to accelerate pretty rapidly.
The Tomb Raider game that was released this year was under 8GB in size. That could easily be ported into a 2GB game for iOS. If they could do that and allow people to plug in an iPad to a TV via HDMI and have a controller of some kind, that would blur the line between mobile and console gaming and allows iOS devices to eat more into the profits from consoles like the Wii U. An iPad that could do that would destroy the Wii U and it would affect the next-gen consoles too.
They're different audiences. No one is taking your console game away from you.
That's in agreement with what people are saying. The suggestion is usually that console gaming is dying out and mobile gaming is taking over but that's far from the case and it's clear when a single developer can make 5x more from a single game in 2 weeks than a mobile developer makes in an entire year from all of their games.
So while you are looking the TV you are able to touch the exact place where the virtual controls are placed on a flat smooth screen?
Uh, yeah. Why can't you? I can touch type on my iPad just like any other system.
And where these virtual controls will be in a different location for every game. Good job if you can, but somehow I don't think you can
The only person that "can't" something is you. And that "can't" is, apparently, have the creativity to envision a system that MOVES THE CONTROLS to be under your fingers instead of the other way around. iOS games already do this.
It shouldn't matter where my fingers go. I can have ten commands right in front of me at all times! Sixteen, actually. They should just always be there.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz
, and the financial solvency of console gaming is being sucked into a black hole. The black hole is called mobile gaming, specifically, iOS gaming.
Yep, we are back in the mid 90s but Apple and mobile games are Microsoft and those 'way better" console games are the new Apple
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna
You already can via Airplay.
And this fact raises an incredible series of other facts that spell out the climate.
-iOS developers have had ample opportunity to go all out, and develop game after game that use iOS device a controller, and Airplayed-content as the primary visual. There is nothing standing in the way of developers pushing for a console gaming experience with iOS device as the controller. There hasn't been anything in the way of that since iOS 5.
....but it hasn't happened save for a handful of not-so popular games. That is all the information anyone ever needs to know that there is NO market for Apps on AppleTV.
Not getting it people? Let me spell it out: NO ONE WANTS IT. WHY? THE EXPERIENCE SUCKS.
Understand that this DOES NOT change at all if tomorrow Apple says, "Apple TV now has App Store. Go get 'em"
The experience of Facebook and Angry Birds and _insert app name_ still would SUCK being used on a TV. There is no if ands or buts about it. I mean don't you get it people? It is not happening because it is NOT GOOD.
There is nothing BETTER, nothing AS GOOD, nothing even ALMOST as good, about TV Apps compared to just using the device in your freaking hand....the one already capable of giving you what you want.
And even if you're still ignorant and think it has some merit: Apple has two choices. 1) Make the iOS device the controller (which they would), which we already know would suck. 2) Take the iOS device out of your hand (freaking never) and give you some dedicated antiquated ridiculous hardware controller for your TV. FAIL.
It does not have a prayer people. Not a prayer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Well, then, it's a good thing that Apple isn't taking away your ability to buy whatever controller you want for your system.
The entire argument is a waste of time. Different people have different wants and needs. Some are happy with a touch screen. Others want a massive controller with 20 buttons and 3D gyro control.
Except it is not that generic, or simple. Businesses need to make decisions based on the numbers. And those numbers are saying that 90% of people only care to play $0.99 pick-up-and-go mobile gaming to satisfy their wants. The remaining 10% are the people who still give a damn about pre-ordering/lining up for the next $60 game that contains 3 hours of total play time.
Assuming the developers weren't lying, there is still the matter of why Apple was at GDC and holding secretive meetings under a pseudonym.
That Phil Fish guy (Indie developer) said it was just 5 minutes of business.
They obviously haven't said anything more about it publicly so that would suggest they have some sort of NDA over what they talked about.
Assuming this short meeting happened, it involved at least one high profile Indie developer whose game isn't on iOS. It could just have been a meeting to persuade game developers to author on iOS but why would that be under NDA? They could be implementing tactile/gesture features but that doesn't need developer support before they implement it.
This event either didn't happen and there's some reason the developers are lying about it or Apple's up to something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz
If only any of that mattered....at all. No one is going to tell you "you're wrong" about the current comparison between console and ios gaming quality. I AM going to tell you, however, that it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference in the real world, and the financial solvency of console gaming is being sucked into a black hole. The black hole is called mobile gaming, specifically, iOS gaming.
After reading all of what you have said in all your posts (in this page) It gives me the impression of someone that doesn't know the industry, which is OK, its alittle annoying getting told 'how things are' when someone clearing doesn't know how things are.
An example of what people say about iOS gaming, iOS is one of the fastest growing platforms that has games, which isn't really a statistic you can use, if you didn't have a gaming presence, then you start one, its the largest growing (whatever it is) thing, if the users go from 1 to 5, it grew 500% & so on.
What you wrote sounded sorta good, & isn't true (for now at least).
In a few years time, the direction i think games (will eventually take) will be mobile gaming of sorts, when phones are powerful enough (which they truly aren't powerful enough yet) to run next gen quality games, people could walk into their lounge room, sit on the couch, phone in pocket, connected to the TV then you can pick up a controller (which is connected to the phone wirelessly) then you can resume the game.
at that stage id be happy with that, If console & PC games stopped coming out tomorrow & phone games is all there were left, it would be a massive leap backwards, id be very disappointed.
I'm so glad that isn't the reality of this world
PS, the companies that make the systems don't make as much money as the game publishing companies, like your EAs or your Rockstars, they make billions, a high selling console & PC game on opening weekend makes Hollywood block buster money, its a massive industry.
& iOS is a great platform for them to release legacy titles on, so they can make some extra money, on games that are 10 years old & that barely make them any money these days, like GTA 3 10th anniversary release on IOS & old finial fantasys & so on.
Of course there is new upstart companies that make angry birds as an example, the development is cheap (compared to a PC/console game) distribution is taken care of (app store) so there are less hands in the chain so they make money, its only 70c for every dollar (something like that) so profit is high i get that, however, buying an iOS game for a few $ isn't stopping me or anyone else in the main video game buying demographic of 18 & older (average gamers age is 30 years old) from buying PC/Console games (68% of all gamers are 18 & older, 68% of all gamers are 18 & older, I had to say it twice).
33% of all video games are played on phones or (25%) portable systems, which doesn't mean they don't play PC or console games at home.
Which isn't the majority but probably will be in a few years or more, but people would still like to play at home, they aren't mutually exclusive, you don't have to choose between portable gaming or home gaming, we can do both at different times.
I have more i could say, its 3AM here, i should probably stop, just more interesting facts & stats.
Rant over.
If you're curious to see the mockup designs, the old site is still up. Maybe it'll be relevant again some day!
http://iphoneopengaming.com/iOGA_hardware.html
They got a patent last year for game controller connectivity:
http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2012/07/apple-further-details-iphone-nfc-apps-for-tv-games-more.html
They've written down playing Prince of Persia Classic Edition.
[VIDEO]
The controller options seem to suggest using NFC to connect possibly a 3rd party controller (I notice they used Sony's controller as an example) to an iOS device or use the iOS device with an on-screen control scheme. It doesn't seem like a very good idea to need an iOS device to be near a 3rd party controller to control say, an Apple TV as you're just running down two sets of batteries. They can make a decent enough standalone controller without that.
Putting iOS devices aside, it's needed for OS X games. There are some big AAA titles on the Mac now like Arkham Asylum and the choices are keyboard and mouse or a 3rd party controller that might not be supported by the game.
If Apple was to build one, it really could be as simple as a Magic Trackpad design with 4 shoulder buttons + gryo and accelerometer. Vibration isn't needed and is usually just annoying but it can have the same vibration you get from an iPhone. Think of a $150 16GB iPod Nano without the display panel and the 16GB of memory and just a basic processing chip. It gets 30 hours of music playback. I suspect wireless connection would be less but the price at least should be reasonable. It can even have a 3.5mm headphone jack on it to save plugging into the source device.
This works for party games too. If you have a group of friends over and want to play some quiz game, you might have 1 iPad and 4 controllers. Split into 4 teams and the teams tap on the 'buzzer' to answer and the iPad knows which one got pressed first. It might be better if it had a display though because you could have card games and things. Although iPods and iPhones do this, they are expensive to buy just for this purpose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zozman
After reading all of what you have said in all your posts (in this page) It gives me the impression of someone that doesn't know the industry, which is OK, its alittle annoying getting told 'how things are' when someone clearing doesn't know how things are.
An example of what people say about iOS gaming, iOS is one of the fastest growing platforms that has games, which isn't really a statistic you can use, if you didn't have a gaming presence, then you start one, its the largest growing (whatever it is) thing, if the users go from 1 to 5, it grew 500% & so on.
What you wrote sounded sorta good, & isn't true (for now at least).
In a few years time, the direction i think games (will eventually take) will be mobile gaming of sorts, when phones are powerful enough (which they truly aren't powerful enough yet) to run next gen quality games, people could walk into their lounge room, sit on the couch, phone in pocket, connected to the TV then you can pick up a controller (which is connected to the phone wirelessly) then you can resume the game.
at that stage id be happy with that, If console & PC games stopped coming out tomorrow & phone games is all there were left, it would be a massive leap backwards, id be very disappointed.
I'm so glad that isn't the reality of this world
PS, the companies that make the systems don't make as much money as the game publishing companies, like your EAs or your Rockstars, they make billions, a high selling console & PC game on opening weekend makes Hollywood block buster money, its a massive industry.
& iOS is a great platform for them to release legacy titles on, so they can make some extra money, on games that are 10 years old & that barely make them any money these days, like GTA 3 10th anniversary release on IOS & old finial fantasys & so on.
Of course there is new upstart companies that make angry birds as an example, the development is cheap (compared to a PC/console game) distribution is taken care of (app store) so there are less hands in the chain so they make money, its only 70c for every dollar (something like that) so profit is high i get that, however, buying an iOS game for a few $ isn't stopping me or anyone else in the main video game buying demographic of 18 & older (average gamers age is 30 years old) from buying PC/Console games (68% of all gamers are 18 & older, 68% of all gamers are 18 & older, I had to say it twice).
33% of all video games are played on phones or (25%) portable systems, which doesn't mean they don't play PC or console games at home.
Which isn't the majority but probably will be in a few years or more, but people would still like to play at home, they aren't mutually exclusive, you don't have to choose between portable gaming or home gaming, we can do both at different times.
I have more i could say, its 3AM here, i should probably stop, just more interesting facts & stats.
Rant over.
After reading all that, it is no way a response to anything I said. 1) Your facts are wrong regarding "games" in general, and 2) You are not counting the people who game exclusively on iOS devices as gamers. You couldn't be, or your numbers wouldn't look like that. Just the number of devices alone tells you all you need to know. Well that + usage/download/purchase statistics as they relate to games. But the number of devices really spells it out, mostly because of the incredibly low number of console devices being sold. Compared against the number of iOS devices, you couldn't even accidentally calculate numbers that look favorable for consoles.
And once you've done the numbers, you have to then get over the notion that it MATTERS, AT ALL that console games are far "better" than iOS games because of hardware. No one is doubting that. But it is turning out to be a NON-factor.
I have to say it twice. "better" games on console does not matter. It is only significant enough to have prevented the all out disintegration of consoles up to this point. Meaning, if they weren't so damn high quality, console gaming would have ENDED, already. We're not talking about beating, we're not talking about keeping up, we're not talking about break even business. We're talking END. GAME OVER, pun intended.
The climate has changed. You have 10s of millions of new buyers of iOS gaming devices every quarter. You have fewer PS consoles sold per quarter than AppleTV. By a few multiples. That is pathetic.
Every console game a physical disc that costs $60, and gives you an average of 2-3 hours of unique play time, unless it is a un-console like game. Only NOW are they beginning to see that this is a poor distribution method, and are looking to move to digital downloads.
Every console is immobile and tethered to your HDTV at home.
Every console itself costs hundreds of dollars and are not as multi function as an iOS device.
compared to....
An iOS device can be had for very cheap, or very expensive. Your choice.
Average game is $1.99, downloads in seconds, and offers endless game play, with the exception of the more console-like games.
Pickup and play, and time, any where, for a minute or for hours.
It is really an unbeatable model. And you can't even argue about console gamers switching their time over to mobile gaming (sacraficing "good" games for "poor" games, as you would say......even though they are!), because the sheer numbers of NEW gamers out weighs it all.
The GAMING DOLLARS are going to attract the Gaming Developers. Yes, developers are going to stop making console games in favor of iOS games, because they stand to make infinitely more money as time goes on.
That's the whole story right there.
You have a series of "real" gamers who won't play anything less than the latest console or a state of the art PC. Anything less is beneath them and doesn't count.
It's as if Mario Andretti said that everyone drives a 600 HP monster capable of 200 mph, but with no back seat.
It's just best to ignore them. If they want to live in their own world, it doesn't hurt anyone else.
I don't remember many AAA titles having 2-3 hours of play time. It's definitely not the average playing time. There are times listed on the following site:
http://www.gamelengths.com
I'd say it's closer to 10 hours but that's for the single player games. Multiplayer games and RPGs can last very long. Skyrim has an average on that site of 190 hours with 10 samples.
It depends on how you define 'endless gameplay'. Excel has endless gameplay too if you have fun doing the same basic tasks over and over again. Catapulting an Angry Bird over and over and over can be addictive but it's not entertaining for everyone.
This isn't really true. Apple has paid out $8b since the beginning of the App Store to all developers combined and most of it is split between the top 25 or so developers. Activision made $1b in the first two weeks from Black Ops 2.
Gameloft last year made about $262m in revenue in 2012:
http://www.insidemobileapps.com/2012/11/05/gameloft-revenues-hit-e55-4m-up-37-y-o-y-for-another-record-quarter/
That's from both iOS and Android and all of their titles over 12 months. Still just 1/5th of a AAA developer with 1 title in 2 weeks.
Epic stated that Infinity Blade was their most profitable title:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/173072/Epics_Sweeney_Platform_convergence_freemium_the_inevitable_future.php
but that's in terms of return on investment. In terms of overall revenue, it was only $30m.
I'd say iOS is great for Indie developers because it removes the problems of distribution and the quality expectations as well as giving a healthy margin and ensuring every sale is a first-time sale. It can work for AAA developers too but they can't spend $50m making a game and then get $30m in revenue.
Visibility is a big problem too. Steam has about 1100 games total that can be browsed through in half an hour and you can instantly recognise the major titles and know they weren't put together by some kid in a bedroom learning how to make games. The ratio of good quality to poor quality titles is far higher with the AAA development process.
I wouldn't say that makes up the majority of console and PC gamers. There is a group of gamers that wouldn't even touch a console. But there are simple facts to recognise.
This year, there are 3 very highly rated games out: Tomb Raider, Hitman Absolution and Bioshock Infinite. Not one of those is on an iOS device. So the console and PC market still has an important advantage and that is high quality titles.
People dismiss mobile gaming simply because of a lack of quality titles. If people recommended quality mobile titles rather than simply said that mobile gaming is taking over then perhaps that would change.
So, what are the recommendations for quality iOS titles? I'm sure the lists will be huge as there's so many games to choose from but let's say 5 quality iOS titles released in the last year.
No, not really. You have to place dedicated objects on the screen, losing screen real estate in the process, or you have to place complicated swiping etc movements, blocking the screen in the process.
I'd rather they defined as new framework for a controller that provided an on screen set of standard controls that could be assigned to a bluetooth controller - maybe work with the industry to nail this down. I'd also hope that they'd submit that spec as a new bluetooth profile (assuming one doesn't already exist - if it does then use that) so any third party manufacturer could build a compatible joypad, joystick, or case, or other similar peripheral. Games could then use part or all of this framework (maybe link it to Game Center), or make up their own.
I don't think gaming and controllers is one of Apple's strengths, so better to provide the infrastructure, and leave the donkey work to the professionals and enthusiasts.
Originally Posted by jfanning
No, not really. You have to place dedicated objects on the screen, losing screen real estate in the process, or you have to place complicated swiping etc movements, blocking the screen in the process.
The idea is that the content being viewed is on the TV. That's the concept here, yeah?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
So, what are the recommendations for quality iOS titles? I'm sure the lists will be huge as there's so many games to choose from but let's say 5 quality iOS titles released in the last year.
Final Fantasy 4
GTA Vice City
The World Ends With You
Sonic 4: Episode II
Chaos Rings II
4/5 of those games started on different platforms, and only 1 title is an original title developed exclusively for iOS.
There is definitely high quality gaming to be had on iOS but if you look at the prices of a few of these games, quality = cost, and quite simply people arent buying them like they do .99 or free games.
Isn't it funny that there is over 1 billion smartphones on the planet and even the largest of developers right now like Square Enix and EA are taking massive beatings financially and they support mobile gaming with some of the best stuff out there and take in the lionshare of money made? Isn't this not supposed to happen, as everyone who loves to claim that consoles are going to be wiped out by mobile gaming with Apple yet mobile gaming doesnt even represent 10% of EAs quarterly or yearly revenue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz
After reading all that, it is no way a response to anything I said. 1) Your facts are wrong regarding "games" in general, and 2) You are not counting the people who game exclusively on iOS devices as gamers. You couldn't be, or your numbers wouldn't look like that. Just the number of devices alone tells you all you need to know. Well that + usage/download/purchase statistics as they relate to games. But the number of devices really spells it out, mostly because of the incredibly low number of console devices being sold. Compared against the number of iOS devices, you couldn't even accidentally calculate numbers that look favorable for consoles.
And once you've done the numbers, you have to then get over the notion that it MATTERS, AT ALL that console games are far "better" than iOS games because of hardware. No one is doubting that. But it is turning out to be a NON-factor.
I have to say it twice. "better" games on console does not matter. It is only significant enough to have prevented the all out disintegration of consoles up to this point. Meaning, if they weren't so damn high quality, console gaming would have ENDED, already. We're not talking about beating, we're not talking about keeping up, we're not talking about break even business. We're talking END. GAME OVER, pun intended.
The climate has changed. You have 10s of millions of new buyers of iOS gaming devices every quarter. You have fewer PS consoles sold per quarter than AppleTV. By a few multiples. That is pathetic.
Every console game a physical disc that costs $60, and gives you an average of 2-3 hours of unique play time, unless it is a un-console like game. Only NOW are they beginning to see that this is a poor distribution method, and are looking to move to digital downloads.
Every console is immobile and tethered to your HDTV at home.
Every console itself costs hundreds of dollars and are not as multi function as an iOS device.
compared to....
An iOS device can be had for very cheap, or very expensive. Your choice.
Average game is $1.99, downloads in seconds, and offers endless game play, with the exception of the more console-like games.
Pickup and play, and time, any where, for a minute or for hours.
It is really an unbeatable model. And you can't even argue about console gamers switching their time over to mobile gaming (sacraficing "good" games for "poor" games, as you would say......even though they are!), because the sheer numbers of NEW gamers out weighs it all.
The GAMING DOLLARS are going to attract the Gaming Developers. Yes, developers are going to stop making console games in favor of iOS games, because they stand to make infinitely more money as time goes on.
The facts & stats are not with you sir, sorry.
I can't respond to a lot of what you said, because i think you made it up, the numbers i gave are current & legitimate, sorry if that doesn't work for you, you can't fight the night, if you try, just look like a fool throwing punches in the air & in the dark, I'm kidding
On other topics i might agree with you, not this time, sorry dude, you are not correct, this might all change in the future, just don't see it happening, with the way iOS hardware is set up right now.
To kinda get back on point, I've wanted Apple to bring out a controller from the start of the app store, i think its stopping a lot of gamers from considering iOS as a legitimate gaming system, if a controller comes out, people can play either retro games or some slightly older games, the way they were designed (with analog buttons (sometimes) & precise controls, i know at least 10 people that would buy a control pad for iOS devices, maybe more.
apple is about the experience, the current way of gaming on a touchscreen isn't even close, with a control pad, i could see, apple making a serious run at completely dominating mobile gaming, in the future, all gaming (unlikely), a larger company might then add iOS to its main release schedule with the consoles & PCs then, (with tweaks to make it run better, lower detail & effects) that's when the serious choices might be made, i can't consider iOS for a game like uncharted, because its not released on iOS at all & when the games i do play do come out, like i said before they are at least 10 years old, if a major title gets released on iOS & PS4 at the same time (If apple makes a control pad) i might seriously pick the iOS version for price & convenience.
PS, Totally agree with Marvin, very strong points.
The funny thing is, we are through the first quarter of the year & PC/Consoles have already had a few major realizes, combine the earnings of those games, id be very interesting in seeing what that is, the new 'gears of war' & 'god of war', later this year, 'the last of us', 'GTA5' & 'Watch dogs', GTA5s release will make the news, its that big a deal.
So while you are looking the TV you are able to touch the exact place where the virtual controls are placed on a flat smooth screen? And where these virtual controls will be in a different location for every game. Good job if you can, but somehow I don't think you can
Rubbish, if you are paying $60 for a console game then learn how to shop around. And the games provide much more than 2.3 hours of play
In NZ all iOS devices (that can play games) are more expensive than the PS3, the Xbox 360, the PS Vita, the iOS devices are far from "cheap"
So in other words, they are small games, with limited features, and limited game play?
How many billion dollar games are there on iOS devices? And how many years out are they?
Way to prove that you've missed the point entirely.
There aren't billion dollar games for iOS devices (AFAIK) simply because the games are cheap and used for 'on the spot' playing. The dedicated gamers who live in their parents' basement and can't stop playing the game long enough to take a shower once a week or so aren't going to be the ones using mobile devices. But they're in the minority. Even with the price difference between iOS games (many of which are free) and console/PC games, mobile has already taken a big (and growing) slice of the pie.
They're different audiences. No one is taking your console game away from you. That market will survive (or not) based on its own characteristics and the success of the people in that market in meeting the needs of the customers. The mobile market is entirely different and it's silly to hold it to the same standards.
Exactly, the quality titles mostly come from the AAA development process targeted at consoles with a handful of exceptions.
Yes, it's mostly the publishers who target consoles that make the most money in mobile so there's no hope of mobile having a negative effect on them.
You're right, mobile games don't have enough immersion to keep gamers attached to their screens. There's no emotional connection. That's really the problem that's being highlighted.
It has outgrown PC gaming but is still short of console gaming:
http://www.cinemablend.com/games/It-Official-Mobile-Gaming-Kill-Console-Gaming-43563.html
They reckon mobile gaming will make up 20% of revenues by 2016. It's hard to say though because mobile hardware and software APIs will become as powerful as last-gen consoles later this year. That means we'll see more AAA games being ported to the platform. With 100 million or more new customers, it's going to accelerate pretty rapidly.
The Tomb Raider game that was released this year was under 8GB in size. That could easily be ported into a 2GB game for iOS. If they could do that and allow people to plug in an iPad to a TV via HDMI and have a controller of some kind, that would blur the line between mobile and console gaming and allows iOS devices to eat more into the profits from consoles like the Wii U. An iPad that could do that would destroy the Wii U and it would affect the next-gen consoles too.
That's in agreement with what people are saying. The suggestion is usually that console gaming is dying out and mobile gaming is taking over but that's far from the case and it's clear when a single developer can make 5x more from a single game in 2 weeks than a mobile developer makes in an entire year from all of their games.
Originally Posted by jfanning
So while you are looking the TV you are able to touch the exact place where the virtual controls are placed on a flat smooth screen?
Uh, yeah. Why can't you? I can touch type on my iPad just like any other system.
And where these virtual controls will be in a different location for every game. Good job if you can, but somehow I don't think you can
The only person that "can't" something is you. And that "can't" is, apparently, have the creativity to envision a system that MOVES THE CONTROLS to be under your fingers instead of the other way around. iOS games already do this.
It shouldn't matter where my fingers go. I can have ten commands right in front of me at all times! Sixteen, actually. They should just always be there.