Did you just say coaching is 100% mental? I know you don't mean to imply minorities can't do the mental aspect of the game.
Why are you comparing to the US pop as a whole?
It's all about opportunity. Right now minorities aren't getting enough opportunities to go on interviews for mgmt positions.
No I didn't mean to imply that minorities can't do the mental aspect.
Why wouldn't I compare the NFL coaching population to the US pop as a whole? It's an awesome job that millions of people would love to have. If 12% of the programmers in the US were black, that would be a sign of healthy diversity, right? So why not 12% of NFL head coaching positions?
Having said that, I have no doubt that in 10 years and in 20 years more and more head coaches will be non-white. Why? Because an increasing number of college coaches are non-white and an increasing number of NFL quarterbacks are non-White. But just because a majority of players are black shouldn't imply that racism is the reason that most coaches aren't black. The best players don't make the best coaches (necessarily).
I take issue with this wording. To me, saying "perfect fit for the US population" implies that there is a perfect number to be had. Consider the game of roulette. There are 38 numbers. Over a very long time they will will statistically average out to the same percentage, about 2.6%, but if you take any 38 consecutive results from it would statistically unlikely to have each number represented just once. I'd have worded it as "4 out of 32 is in line with a statistical average" but I don't think we should in any way force this specific average by assuming it's a perfect ratio for all isolated measurements.
I thought it was clear from my wording that I was being sarcastic in the use of the word "perfect." I was arguing that it's not obvious that minorities are underrepresented in senior coaching positions. Four black coaches sounds like a tiny number until you realize that it's a tiny number in a really small pool--representing a pretty decent percentage.
Recent years? More than two generations have passed since anything like your scenario has existed, especially in the most populous cities and yet those same cities have the biggest problems. But you are right, while poor choices are certainly part of the problem, the Democratic party's policies are also a major contributing factor. Here are some examples:
1. Instead of supporting parents rights to choose schools for the children and holding teachers accountable for their performance, Democrats instead support teachers unions that block any changes to the current educational system, despite the obvious flaws.
2. The huge entitlements proposed and supported by Democrats make low-income people dependent on government largess. African Americans were not the only ethnic group to be discriminated against 100 or more years ago. Italians, Irish, Asians, etc. all were victims of inequality and discrimination but the difference is that none of these groups were given handouts and therefore had to fend for themselves.
3. Additionally, African-American leaders like Jackson, Sharpton, and their ilk, who specialize in racial disharmony, have been embraced by the Democratic party. Instead of motivating African Americans to improve their situation, they inspire racial hatred.
Recent years? More than two generations have passed since anything like your scenario has existed, especially in the most populous cities and yet those same cities have the biggest problems. But you are right, while poor choices are certainly part of the problem, the Democratic party's policies are also a major contributing factor. Here are some examples:
1. Instead of supporting parents rights to choose schools for the children and holding teachers accountable for their performance, Democrats instead support teachers unions that block any changes to the current educational system, despite the obvious flaws.
2. The huge entitlements proposed and supported by Democrats make low-income people dependent on government largess. African Americans were not the only ethnic group to be discriminated against 100 or more years ago. Italians, Irish, Asians, etc. all were victims of inequality and discrimination but the difference is that none of these groups were given handouts and therefore had to fend for themselves.
3. Additionally, African-American leaders like Jackson, Sharpton, and their ilk, who specialize in racial disharmony, have been embraced by the Democratic party. Instead of motivating African Americans to improve their situation, they inspire racial hatred.
There much truth in what you say… But how do we resolve the overarching issue?
I'm almost 75 years old what can I do to help protect the future for my country and my grandchildren?
I am sorry, but are you saying that physics and engineering are different based on a person's culture or skin color?
Of course, I know that you aren't. I also agree with you that there are certainly some jobs where diversity in cultural understanding is a very valid job criteria. But, your contention that this is somehow a component in every job is absurd and inaccurate.
The size of a resistor needed in a circuit or the most efficient way to sort an array is the exact same regardless of whether you are a third generation Harvard engineer or a self taught immigrant from Rwanda. Nature and thus science and engineering care nothing for humanity or its many foibles.
Jackson's comments might have been more applicable if he hadn't picked out engineering driven companies as his current scapegoats, but he didn't. Which again, calls into question his reasons for picking companies where cultural diversity isn't a major factor for his emphasis.
The problem of minority involvement in STEM fields is much, much deeper than the executives in a few of the companies. To see that all you have to do is look at he make up of STEM fields in the universities around the world.
Me thinks the mknopp doth protest a bit too much?
The fact that you felt the need to go and on about a premise (sarcastically and seriously) that neither myself nor Mr. Jackson were implying speaks volumes about how misinformed you are. Jackson didn't pick out engineering-driven companies whose business models don't also focus on human/cultural interaction. He didn't call out JPL, or NASA, or DuPont. He called out Apple, and Facebook and Twitter – hello! Only a person sadly misinformed about the definition of the words "technology" and "humanity" could qualify those companies as not falling into the realm of culture. While science is part of their essence, so is the "application" and interfacing of that science with people and our daily lives.
But even if I charitably entertained your premise for a brief moment and switched the topic to a purely science-focused discussion, as a black engineer myself, I can promise you that the lack of diversity issue (at least in the U.S. which is Jackson's primary concern) is pervasive even in areas you would think should be purely scientific. It's not about somehow looking "deeper". The issue is all around us in varying degrees. Or if you need a more scientific analogy... it's not layers of an atmosphere with board members in an outer mesosphere and we must hope to penetrate down to the Earth's core. It's an entire network of celestial bodies with multiple stars and gradually shifting fields all worthy of investigation. Think bigger than your limited pre-Copernican perspective and see the bigger universe.
I am sorry, but are you saying that physics and engineering are different based on a person's culture or skin color?
Of course, I know that you aren't. I also agree with you that there are certainly some jobs where diversity in cultural understanding is a very valid job criteria. But, your contention that this is somehow a component in every job is absurd and inaccurate.
The size of a resistor needed in a circuit or the most efficient way to sort an array is the exact same regardless of whether you are a third generation Harvard engineer or a self taught immigrant from Rwanda. Nature and thus science and engineering care nothing for humanity or its many foibles.
Jackson's comments might have been more applicable if he hadn't picked out engineering driven companies as his current scapegoats, but he didn't. Which again, calls into question his reasons for picking companies where cultural diversity isn't a major factor for his emphasis.
The problem of minority involvement in STEM fields is much, much deeper than the executives in a few of the companies. To see that all you have to do is look at he make up of STEM fields in the universities around the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
OK!
Maybe approach this from another angle ...
Maybe Apple should include a non-white person on their BOD. But, if it is just for appearances, I think it would be a mistake. It should be someone who can reach out and influence other corporations, the disadvantaged and the general public -- and benefit Apple and the world community at large.
My first choice would be Ervin Johnson.
Who'd be your choice?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mknopp
I am sorry, but are you saying that physics and engineering are different based on a person's culture or skin color?
Of course, I know that you aren't. I also agree with you that there are certainly some jobs where diversity in cultural understanding is a very valid job criteria. But, your contention that this is somehow a component in every job is absurd and inaccurate.
The size of a resistor needed in a circuit or the most efficient way to sort an array is the exact same regardless of whether you are a third generation Harvard engineer or a self taught immigrant from Rwanda. Nature and thus science and engineering care nothing for humanity or its many foibles.
Jackson's comments might have been more applicable if he hadn't picked out engineering driven companies as his current scapegoats, but he didn't. Which again, calls into question his reasons for picking companies where cultural diversity isn't a major factor for his emphasis.
The problem of minority involvement in STEM fields is much, much deeper than the executives in a few of the companies. To see that all you have to do is look at he make up of STEM fields in the universities around the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
OK!
Maybe approach this from another angle ...
Maybe Apple should include a non-white person on their BOD. But, if it is just for appearances, I think it would be a mistake. It should be someone who can reach out and influence other corporations, the disadvantaged and the general public -- and benefit Apple and the world community at large.
My first choice would be Ervin Johnson.
Who'd be your choice?
My choice would be someone who also has their pulse on more of the arts/humanities since Apple is always touting their belief in the intersection of technology and humanities – unfortunately Alicia Keys is busy with Samsung – someone with longer roots in American culture like a Wynton Marsalis. Or possible someone with deep roots on civil rights issues like a Dr. Cornel West – he would blow their mind in a good way.
If they had to recreate the "Crazy Ones" commercial with people alive today – who would be some of the icons they would choose for that commercial to represent people of color?
One way to avoid the issue of just for appearances, my suggestion would be for Apple to go to their own employees or management staff and frankly say "we intend for our board to represent as much of the rich diversity of our industry, customers and employees as possible. Please submit your thoughts and ideas for how our current board could better meet this goal. See where that leads. They might even go as far as inviting a 3rd-party committee into the process the same way they would for improving their enivronmental stance, or foreign labor standards.
P.S., I truly appreciate your type of contribution to discussions/threads like this. It offers valuable insight as a departure from the knee-jerk conflicts these issues normally prompt.
I have been a professional software developer for 18 years. I have worked with men, women, Chinese, Indians, Vietnamese, Russians, Polish, French, British, Irish, South African, Turkish, Iranian, Dutch and 2 lesbians (Lol, that's not a joke, it's literally true).
It is such a diverse profession, that even if people start out racist they surely lose it pretty quickly. So whatever the reason for the small number of black people, I'd be surprised if it was racism. That said, I haven't encountered a black person in the field since university where my computer hardware professor was black.
Maybe Apple should include a non-white person on their BOD. But, if it is just for appearances, I think it would be a mistake. It should be someone who can reach out and influence other corporations, the disadvantaged and the general public -- and benefit Apple and the world community at large.
My first choice would be Ervin Johnson.
Who'd be your choice?
"Sheeeeeeeeiiit.... I done missed the big party!"
Longest thread in quite awhile here.
Like the idea, so my obvious choice would be Neil deGrasse Tyson...:smokey:
I'd just like to add my Not So Obvious Choice for BOD of the rather young but very eloquent and wise for her age Lupita Nyong'o
The following free-form round table interview and discussion from Vanity Fair, with Lupita, Oprah, Octavia Spencer, Julia Roberts, Amy Adams (fantasy girlfriend!) and "will you marry me?!" Emma Thompson. Really great stuff from all, and Emma is a bust up... but the jaw dropping starts when that lovely Lupita answers a question. Just awe inspiring what she has ahead of her for a future... In anything she attempts to do... so why not BOD at Apple?!
Must see TV if anyone cares or finds the time. BTW: the question of racism also comes up in the questions as well, and I think everyone handled and answered them rather well. A tough subject for anyone to grasp and/or truly fix, as is evidenced by this extremely long thread here.
I'm not far behind you in age but I still think that we can help by voting for candidates in either party who support policies that help people rather then just help themselves get reelected. For example, I always want to know a candidate's position on charter schools. Although not always perfect, charter schools generally have a strong record of improving the education of our children. Parents love them, students love them, and if a candidate is against them, it is pretty obvious that he or she is pandering to teachers unions that are dead set against them. Another example is a candidate's position on Medicare and Social Security. Some people argue that since voters pay into these programs they are not entitlements, but if a program pays out more than it takes in, a portion of the program is by definition, an entitlement. Because people are living longer than originally projected when these programs were initiated, they are both projected by the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) to go into deficit within the next decade or so. I vote for candidates who have the courage to support changes that fix this problem, like raising the eligibility age for Social Security benefits for those 50 years old or younger. That gives these "youngsters" enough time to adjust their savings programs in sync with the change.
You know, if you're smart and black, you'll make it. Just like if you're smart and white, smart and asian, smart and indian, etc...you'll make it.
Jackson just can't stop playing the race card. He's the typical reverse racist.
Unfortunately The Rev Jesse Jackson is not actually interested in racial equality. He is interested in keeping black people aroused, and subservient in order to gain power for himself. Pretty much the same for many of today's black leaders. We really did have a big problem with racial equality many years ago. Today we still have a problem in some areas but things improve daily. If the Rev. Jesse would actually LEAD black people, tell them to work hard, have faith in themselves, and that they are equal things would improve at a much faster rate. Unfortunately that is not his real agenda.
Comments
If by ignorant buffoon you mean correct, then yes.
Did you just say coaching is 100% mental? I know you don't mean to imply minorities can't do the mental aspect of the game.
Why are you comparing to the US pop as a whole?
It's all about opportunity. Right now minorities aren't getting enough opportunities to go on interviews for mgmt positions.
No I didn't mean to imply that minorities can't do the mental aspect.
Why wouldn't I compare the NFL coaching population to the US pop as a whole? It's an awesome job that millions of people would love to have. If 12% of the programmers in the US were black, that would be a sign of healthy diversity, right? So why not 12% of NFL head coaching positions?
Having said that, I have no doubt that in 10 years and in 20 years more and more head coaches will be non-white. Why? Because an increasing number of college coaches are non-white and an increasing number of NFL quarterbacks are non-White. But just because a majority of players are black shouldn't imply that racism is the reason that most coaches aren't black. The best players don't make the best coaches (necessarily).
I take issue with this wording. To me, saying "perfect fit for the US population" implies that there is a perfect number to be had. Consider the game of roulette. There are 38 numbers. Over a very long time they will will statistically average out to the same percentage, about 2.6%, but if you take any 38 consecutive results from it would statistically unlikely to have each number represented just once. I'd have worded it as "4 out of 32 is in line with a statistical average" but I don't think we should in any way force this specific average by assuming it's a perfect ratio for all isolated measurements.
I thought it was clear from my wording that I was being sarcastic in the use of the word "perfect." I was arguing that it's not obvious that minorities are underrepresented in senior coaching positions. Four black coaches sounds like a tiny number until you realize that it's a tiny number in a really small pool--representing a pretty decent percentage.
Recent years? More than two generations have passed since anything like your scenario has existed, especially in the most populous cities and yet those same cities have the biggest problems. But you are right, while poor choices are certainly part of the problem, the Democratic party's policies are also a major contributing factor. Here are some examples:
1. Instead of supporting parents rights to choose schools for the children and holding teachers accountable for their performance, Democrats instead support teachers unions that block any changes to the current educational system, despite the obvious flaws.
2. The huge entitlements proposed and supported by Democrats make low-income people dependent on government largess. African Americans were not the only ethnic group to be discriminated against 100 or more years ago. Italians, Irish, Asians, etc. all were victims of inequality and discrimination but the difference is that none of these groups were given handouts and therefore had to fend for themselves.
3. Additionally, African-American leaders like Jackson, Sharpton, and their ilk, who specialize in racial disharmony, have been embraced by the Democratic party. Instead of motivating African Americans to improve their situation, they inspire racial hatred.
There much truth in what you say… But how do we resolve the overarching issue?
I'm almost 75 years old what can I do to help protect the future for my country and my grandchildren?
There is nothing you can do to ensure a protected future. Teach them well and let them lead the way and show them all the beauty they possess inside.
That ... that is great advice!
Beauty they possess, eh?
[VIDEO]
I am sorry, but are you saying that physics and engineering are different based on a person's culture or skin color?
Of course, I know that you aren't. I also agree with you that there are certainly some jobs where diversity in cultural understanding is a very valid job criteria. But, your contention that this is somehow a component in every job is absurd and inaccurate.
The size of a resistor needed in a circuit or the most efficient way to sort an array is the exact same regardless of whether you are a third generation Harvard engineer or a self taught immigrant from Rwanda. Nature and thus science and engineering care nothing for humanity or its many foibles.
Jackson's comments might have been more applicable if he hadn't picked out engineering driven companies as his current scapegoats, but he didn't. Which again, calls into question his reasons for picking companies where cultural diversity isn't a major factor for his emphasis.
The problem of minority involvement in STEM fields is much, much deeper than the executives in a few of the companies. To see that all you have to do is look at he make up of STEM fields in the universities around the world.
Me thinks the mknopp doth protest a bit too much?
The fact that you felt the need to go and on about a premise (sarcastically and seriously) that neither myself nor Mr. Jackson were implying speaks volumes about how misinformed you are. Jackson didn't pick out engineering-driven companies whose business models don't also focus on human/cultural interaction. He didn't call out JPL, or NASA, or DuPont. He called out Apple, and Facebook and Twitter – hello! Only a person sadly misinformed about the definition of the words "technology" and "humanity" could qualify those companies as not falling into the realm of culture. While science is part of their essence, so is the "application" and interfacing of that science with people and our daily lives.
But even if I charitably entertained your premise for a brief moment and switched the topic to a purely science-focused discussion, as a black engineer myself, I can promise you that the lack of diversity issue (at least in the U.S. which is Jackson's primary concern) is pervasive even in areas you would think should be purely scientific. It's not about somehow looking "deeper". The issue is all around us in varying degrees. Or if you need a more scientific analogy... it's not layers of an atmosphere with board members in an outer mesosphere and we must hope to penetrate down to the Earth's core. It's an entire network of celestial bodies with multiple stars and gradually shifting fields all worthy of investigation. Think bigger than your limited pre-Copernican perspective and see the bigger universe.
I am sorry, but are you saying that physics and engineering are different based on a person's culture or skin color?
http://appleinsider.com/articles/14/03/19/rev-jesse-jackson-targets-apple-google-hp-others-in-tech-racial-diversity-campaign
I am sorry, but are you saying that physics and engineering are different based on a person's culture or skin color?
Of course, I know that you aren't. I also agree with you that there are certainly some jobs where diversity in cultural understanding is a very valid job criteria. But, your contention that this is somehow a component in every job is absurd and inaccurate.
The size of a resistor needed in a circuit or the most efficient way to sort an array is the exact same regardless of whether you are a third generation Harvard engineer or a self taught immigrant from Rwanda. Nature and thus science and engineering care nothing for humanity or its many foibles.
Jackson's comments might have been more applicable if he hadn't picked out engineering driven companies as his current scapegoats, but he didn't. Which again, calls into question his reasons for picking companies where cultural diversity isn't a major factor for his emphasis.
The problem of minority involvement in STEM fields is much, much deeper than the executives in a few of the companies. To see that all you have to do is look at he make up of STEM fields in the universities around the world.
OK!
Maybe approach this from another angle ...
Maybe Apple should include a non-white person on their BOD. But, if it is just for appearances, I think it would be a mistake. It should be someone who can reach out and influence other corporations, the disadvantaged and the general public -- and benefit Apple and the world community at large.
My first choice would be Ervin Johnson.
Who'd be your choice?
I am sorry, but are you saying that physics and engineering are different based on a person's culture or skin color?
Of course, I know that you aren't. I also agree with you that there are certainly some jobs where diversity in cultural understanding is a very valid job criteria. But, your contention that this is somehow a component in every job is absurd and inaccurate.
The size of a resistor needed in a circuit or the most efficient way to sort an array is the exact same regardless of whether you are a third generation Harvard engineer or a self taught immigrant from Rwanda. Nature and thus science and engineering care nothing for humanity or its many foibles.
Jackson's comments might have been more applicable if he hadn't picked out engineering driven companies as his current scapegoats, but he didn't. Which again, calls into question his reasons for picking companies where cultural diversity isn't a major factor for his emphasis.
The problem of minority involvement in STEM fields is much, much deeper than the executives in a few of the companies. To see that all you have to do is look at he make up of STEM fields in the universities around the world.
OK!
Maybe approach this from another angle ...
Maybe Apple should include a non-white person on their BOD. But, if it is just for appearances, I think it would be a mistake. It should be someone who can reach out and influence other corporations, the disadvantaged and the general public -- and benefit Apple and the world community at large.
My first choice would be Ervin Johnson.
Who'd be your choice?
My choice would be someone who also has their pulse on more of the arts/humanities since Apple is always touting their belief in the intersection of technology and humanities – unfortunately Alicia Keys is busy with Samsung – someone with longer roots in American culture like a Wynton Marsalis. Or possible someone with deep roots on civil rights issues like a Dr. Cornel West – he would blow their mind in a good way.
If they had to recreate the "Crazy Ones" commercial with people alive today – who would be some of the icons they would choose for that commercial to represent people of color?
One way to avoid the issue of just for appearances, my suggestion would be for Apple to go to their own employees or management staff and frankly say "we intend for our board to represent as much of the rich diversity of our industry, customers and employees as possible. Please submit your thoughts and ideas for how our current board could better meet this goal. See where that leads. They might even go as far as inviting a 3rd-party committee into the process the same way they would for improving their enivronmental stance, or foreign labor standards.
P.S., I truly appreciate your type of contribution to discussions/threads like this. It offers valuable insight as a departure from the knee-jerk conflicts these issues normally prompt.
I have been a professional software developer for 18 years. I have worked with men, women, Chinese, Indians, Vietnamese, Russians, Polish, French, British, Irish, South African, Turkish, Iranian, Dutch and 2 lesbians (Lol, that's not a joke, it's literally true).
It is such a diverse profession, that even if people start out racist they surely lose it pretty quickly. So whatever the reason for the small number of black people, I'd be surprised if it was racism. That said, I haven't encountered a black person in the field since university where my computer hardware professor was black.
"Sheeeeeeeeiiit.... I done missed the big party!"
Longest thread in quite awhile here.
Like the idea, so my obvious choice would be Neil deGrasse Tyson...:smokey:
The following free-form round table interview and discussion from Vanity Fair, with Lupita, Oprah, Octavia Spencer, Julia Roberts, Amy Adams (fantasy girlfriend!) and "will you marry me?!" Emma Thompson. Really great stuff from all, and Emma is a bust up... but the jaw dropping starts when that lovely Lupita answers a question. Just awe inspiring what she has ahead of her for a future... In anything she attempts to do... so why not BOD at Apple?!
Must see TV if anyone cares or finds the time. BTW: the question of racism also comes up in the questions as well, and I think everyone handled and answered them rather well. A tough subject for anyone to grasp and/or truly fix, as is evidenced by this extremely long thread here.
You
A good singer, but she made terrible life decisions.
I'm not far behind you in age but I still think that we can help by voting for candidates in either party who support policies that help people rather then just help themselves get reelected. For example, I always want to know a candidate's position on charter schools. Although not always perfect, charter schools generally have a strong record of improving the education of our children. Parents love them, students love them, and if a candidate is against them, it is pretty obvious that he or she is pandering to teachers unions that are dead set against them. Another example is a candidate's position on Medicare and Social Security. Some people argue that since voters pay into these programs they are not entitlements, but if a program pays out more than it takes in, a portion of the program is by definition, an entitlement. Because people are living longer than originally projected when these programs were initiated, they are both projected by the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) to go into deficit within the next decade or so. I vote for candidates who have the courage to support changes that fix this problem, like raising the eligibility age for Social Security benefits for those 50 years old or younger. That gives these "youngsters" enough time to adjust their savings programs in sync with the change.
While we are at it .... lets also bring diversity into NFL , NBA as well
Wonder about the diversity of the Rainbow Push??
You know, if you're smart and black, you'll make it. Just like if you're smart and white, smart and asian, smart and indian, etc...you'll make it.
Jackson just can't stop playing the race card. He's the typical reverse racist.
Unfortunately The Rev Jesse Jackson is not actually interested in racial equality. He is interested in keeping black people aroused, and subservient in order to gain power for himself. Pretty much the same for many of today's black leaders. We really did have a big problem with racial equality many years ago. Today we still have a problem in some areas but things improve daily. If the Rev. Jesse would actually LEAD black people, tell them to work hard, have faith in themselves, and that they are equal things would improve at a much faster rate. Unfortunately that is not his real agenda.