In addition, the iPhone can be authorized to recognize iBeacons to notify the watch of nearby specials, loyalty card deals ... something the watch can;t do by itself.
If you read the text I took the trouble to underline you'd see that it clearly states it will also let you choose when credit or debit card to use for ?Pay. What's your logic in thinking that ?Watch will let you select various Passbook passes on ?Watch but then not select a different credit or debit card via that same interface, even though we know this is how it works on the iPhone, and that the ?Pay cannot be stored on those older iPhones?
1) Why can't the BT in ?Watch be made to pick up BT from iBeacons? Personally, I don't want this to happen but there is no technical reason why it can't work.
2) iBeacons have no bearing on how ?Pay will work on ?Watch.
Sol, I've been re-reading our posts on Apple Pay on the Apple Watch. With the image from Apple's site, and the text you underlined -- I think you are correct to infer that the Apple Watch can process Apple Pay payments without an iPhone connection.
That bothers me, because everything else that I've heard or read, leads me to infer that an iPhone is required.
The inability to get direct answers to direct questions, suggests to me that Apple is intentionally being vague -- possibly for competitive reasons for an unreleased product.
To support this, I submit an updated copy of the annotated image that you submitted -- a source of confusion, if not contention:
The Apple image shows a Delta Pass -- As I understand it you would need GPS and/or iBeacons to get an alert that you're near a Delta counter/gate.
From everything I've heard and read -- the Apple Watch does not have a GPS radio -- too much battery drain.
The image text I highlighted with a dotted blue underline leads me to infer that the Apple Watch, by itself, can recognize iBeacons -- otherwise how would it know to alert you?
However, I do not believe that the Apple Watch, by itself, can recognize iBeacons.* Apparently, neither do you -- indicated by: your comments highlighted above:
1) Why can't the BT in ?Watch be made to pick up BT from iBeacons? Personally, I don't want this to happen but there is no technical reason why it can't work.
2) iBeacons have no bearing on how ?Pay will work on ?Watch.
* There are several reasons that iBeacons do not seem appropriate for the Apple Watch:
to recognize iBeacons, the device needs to continuously (or periodically?) run the BLE radio (in the background?)
experience shows that this can place a considerable drain on a small iPhone battery -- likely, even more on the smaller Apple Watch battery
likely, the user only wants alerts from specific, nearby, iBeacons -- shopping for clothes, not appliances ..
this can change as the user moves about and the day unfolds -- e.g., let's get lunch ...
to configure, then reconfigure the Apple Watch involves selecting a few relevant passes from, potentially, many, currently irrelevantt passes
at best, this would be cumbersome on the Apple Watch, alone -- better done on the iPhone, then update the Apple Watch
From the above, I infer that the iPhone will be required to effectively use PassBook passes on the Apple Watch.
I think we're being gamed a little ...
So, I'll see your Apple Pay payment infer -- and raise you a Passbook pass infer ...
^ I suppose that's true, but it doesn't seem to justify the accusation that PayPal is (unusually) insecure. iTunes stores credit card and bank information too.
You can't buy things online with iTunes. People have had their bank accounts drained by people accessing their Paypal. In order to take money out of Paypal, you link it to a bank account. In order to top up Paypal or pay beyond the balance, you link a credit or debit card.
If someone uses the same password for Paypal as they do for another service or they are subjected to a basic phishing attack, all someone has to do is login to Paypal and they can make transactions that will drain not only their balance but the bank account linked to cards.
You're effectively placing your own personal bank account behind your email address plus a password you think up. You're covered to an extent for fraudulent transactions but it's not a very secure setup. To login to your own bank account or make card payments, you have to use way more authentication than an email plus password. That's where all the fraudulent purchases come from on eBay, they just have to steal login credentials and then tell you to ship the goods, usually to another country.
You're missing out the fingerprint id. This isn't something that every manufacturer could have nor would have done and is a crucial element in ?Pay's security. Apple has a speed advantage in the payment process due to how they set it up. Every time Apple does something the right way, people dismiss it as something inevitable but given how many times Apple has done this sort of thing, that critique that it's just about marketing doesn't hold up.
Totally agree. In one of Steve jobs interviews he explained what is different at Apple that no other company does which is "the work" is the most important thing and para phrasing Steve jobs: "Johnny (Ive) I'm surprised you take it personally, I thought you were better than that"
Apple simply designs it the right way. INSANELY GREAT. They design things the way they want to use it, not to quickly get something to market asap. Case in point Apple watch, and look at the uproar that is happening right now because others perceive it as late. Yes Apple takes this make it perfect to the extreme but look at the result, they have dominated market after market. It is all about Steve's vision . Look at all the wearable crap being rushed to market destined to die on the vine and the gutter tech press gleeful about all the crap that is coming out article after article telling you how wonderful it is bought and paid for by their manufacturers and how Apple is late to market and in trouble because they perceive Apple watch won't get the numbers. Of course when Apple watch takes off and kills them you won't see any retractions, these media whores are what they are.
The correct way to view these hatchet job articles about Apple is to take the view that " ah yes it's because Apple is so successful they are forced to write lie after lie, if they were not having to write these hatchet job product reviews and pieces it would indicate Apple was NOT a threat so in a perverse way it's actually a compliment. If Apple wasn't doing it right this crap being written wouldn't be here.
This the essential reason why Google and most of the others fail. The throwing things at the market and seeing if they will stick is fine if one have bucket loads of cash to fritter away on fantasies, but eventually when the money gets tight, reality sets in and this method comes to a halt. Most of these Google projects and beta products are not doing much. I call it at best mediocre to bad design, done by people who don't really care. Another name for this disease is "just good enough" or "that will do" design. And these things designed at Google are examples:
Google glass fail
Google + fail
Google car fail
Google barges fail
Google tv fail
Chrome book fail
Google chrome cast fail
Google you tube monitzation fail
Google gears remember that pile of }^#}#^}
The only reason Google can keep doing this is the money they have from search. Eventually it's all going to dry up and when that happen I would not want to be holding stock.
The list goes on and on just do a yahoo search to find out all the projects that have been axed or discontinued
You can't see an issue with the security of a PIN? A 4 digit number that, not only can people visually watch you input if they so wish, there are thousands of hacked card readers that copy the card number and log your PIN. The card number can then be cloned to a blank card, the stolen PIN used and stuff either bought or money taken from the account from an ATM.
Yes, the transactions are encrypted but only after leaving the terminal which is why they are attacking the terminals directly.
Tokenization uses a different number every time, like a rolling code. There is no actual user data sent. Even if the scammer got this data, once it has been used, it's useless to them. There is no useable log in codes like the PIN as the data means nothing until it is sent to Apple for verification. The data that confirms the fingerprint is encrypted into the token before it leaves the phone.
The token number is 19 digits and used once. So you have a 9,999,999,999,999,999,999 chance of getting the right token code before it changes.
Yes, in some circumstances your PIN might be observed, but that information is of no use without the card.
I think you are confusing chip and pin a bit with mag stripe. As far as I can ascertain, a chip and pin card can not be cloned. I found a reference to an instance where a very sophisticated gang did manage to compromise some terminals and were able to obtain some details from cards, but the cards they produced were not chip and pin and had to be exported to countries that still used mag-stripe cards. That operation occurred in the UK and appears to be a one-off, so I suspect the banks and terminal manufacturers have quietly plugged that hole in their systems. The chip and pin system also generates a token and does not communicate all of the account details, though I believe the terminal may be the part that does that. Again, I found reference to one instance in Spain where this authentication token had been compromised. As that exploit also does not appear to have been replicated I would suspect it is technically difficult to implement and the banks and terminal manufacturers have possibly plugged that hole also.
Given that chip and pin has been around for a many years here in Europe and elsewhere and that there are 1.62 Billion cards, and who knows how many trillions of transactions annually , the actual reportage of exploits I have been able to find is miniscule so the systems security would appear to be very high. The sophistication and effort required to circumvent the system is far greater than that required to circumvent the touch ID on an iPhone.
Given that chip and pin has been around for a many years here in Europe and elsewhere and that there are 1.62 Billion cards, and who knows how many trillions of transactions annually , the actual reportage of exploits I have been able to find is miniscule so the systems security would appear to be very high. The sophistication and effort required to circumvent the system is far greater than that required to circumvent the touch ID on an iPhone.
All you need to make a chip and pin card payment is the number and CVV just like any other card. That's how they load it into ?Pay. You seem to be thinking about fraud at a checkout level and not online. If someone installs a keylogger on your computer, they can get the exact same details you are entering into a website and use it for fraudulent transactions. This isn't possible with ?Pay. There's also the PIN route, which they don't always cover the user for:
"Card fraud is estimated to cost British banks £341million a year, and the majority is paid back to victims"
Nobody knows what effort it would take to circumvent touch ID on an iPhone or if it's even possible. What we do know is that all current methods can be used for fraud quite easily and there are no details of a way to circumvent ?Pay. If you have one, I'm sure Apple would like to hear about it. Banks seems to be confident enough in it.
All you need to make a chip and pin card payment is the number and CVV just like any other card. That's how they load it into ?Pay.
I believe I only had 1 of 5 cards get authenticated into ?Pay with only the basic information on the card. The rest required additional authentication methods which then required me to answer some additional information for the setup. I think they ranged from an email, SMS, last 4 of SSN, or a phone call with secret question. A couple had several options to choose from, and at least one had only one additional security option at the time. This all depends on the card issue, and if they feel it's too insecure they could easily require that you re-do your ?Pay setup for that card at will.
What kind of buyer and seller protection does PayPal offer when money is pulled from your checking account?
I am not entirely sure what you mean. They seller is protected in the sense they don't get an acknowledgement of payment until Paypal have managed to withdraw the funds from my account - they are then credited with the transaction amount. As a buyer, I am protected in the sense that if I don't receive the goods (it's up to the seller to use a verified delivery method) or they are not as described or are defective, I can approach Paypal with evidence supporting my dispute and if they agree with it, they will refund my account and debit the sellers account if they can or will fund it themselves if necessary.
I have had several disputes with sellers, and in every instance, Paypal have reimbursed my account.
I am not entirely sure what you mean. They seller is protected in the sense they don't get an acknowledgement of payment until Paypal have managed to withdraw the funds from my account - they are then credited with the transaction amount. As a buyer, I am protected in the sense that if I don't receive the goods (it's up to the seller to use a verified delivery method) or they are not as described or are defective, I can approach Paypal with evidence supporting my dispute and if they agree with it, they will refund my account and debit the sellers account if they can or will fund it themselves if necessary.
I have had several disputes with sellers, and in every instance, Paypal have reimbursed my account.
1) Let's say your PayPal account is hacked and founds are removed from your bank via the checking and routing numbers you have on file. You're saying PayPal will refund you every single dollar stolen the moment you inform them about it? I've never heard of such protection from PayPal, but this is common with credit card companies. In fact, like many have an extra email account specifically for less secure communication where they have to give an email to companies, I have a Google Voice phone number for the same reason, as well a checking account tied to my PayPal account that only has funds shifted to it specifically for the purchases I tend to make with PayPal.
2) "…and if they agree with it…" sounds pretty flimsy if someone mails you something that you claim isn't what you ordered and they say it is, or vice versa. How does PayPal work out these he said she said complaints? With a credit card company they don't care and will instantly refund you the funds with some basic boilerplate expectation that if they do happen to file charges that you will testify to your complaint. Unless the customer is found to excessively abuse this system, at which point they might find it in their best interest to simply let you go as a customer, there will never be an issue. On top of that, your credit card company isn't charging you an additional fees for using their service the way PayPal does, which I find can be excessive.
".......upscale grocer Whole Foods saw a 400 percent increase in contactless payments since the service launched."
Other grocery stores such as Safeway, QFC, etc would definitely see something like this if they adopted ApplePay.
I would think they would see an uptick, but I'm under the impression that Whole Foods is a higher-end grocery store where people will more likely be using 1) iPhones and 2) the latest iPhones. There might even be an argument to be made about people that are drawn to the image of Whole Foods might also be more inclined to adopt newer and/or safer technologies, like ?Pay.
1) Let's say your PayPal account is hacked and founds are removed from your bank via the checking and routing numbers you have on file. You're saying PayPal will refund you every single dollar stolen the moment you inform them about it? I've never heard of such protection from PayPal, but this is common with credit card companies. In fact, like many have an extra email account specifically for less secure communication where they have to give an email to companies, I have a Google Voice phone number for the same reason, as well a checking account tied to my PayPal account that only has funds shifted to it specifically for the purchases I tend to make with PayPal.
2) "…and if they agree with it…" sounds pretty flimsy if someone mails you something that you claim isn't what you ordered and they say it is, or vice versa. How does PayPal work out these he said she said complaints? With a credit card company they don't care and will instantly refund you the funds with some basic boilerplate expectation that if they do happen to file charges that you will testify to your complaint. Unless the customer is found to excessively abuse this system, at which point they might find it in their best interest to simply let you go as a customer, there will never be an issue. On top of that, your credit card company isn't charging you an additional fees for using their service the way PayPal does, which I find can be excessive.
Ah, got you. No, you are quite correct, if my Paypal account was hacked then I doubt there would be any protection, however, Paypal does not have my bank details, only CC details - Visa Debit and Mastercard. I believe that if I were to raise a dispute with those companies over being hacked, that they might provide some protection. I am also protected by my transaction amount limits. I can only see my Paypal account being hacked through use of a key logger, in which case, I would have far greater concerns than Paypal. I have a fairly strong Paypal password and I use an email address specifically for that and a couple other financial purposes. I also tend to cut and paste one part of login details for financial related sites which is a partial defense against keyloggers, and I use a Mac.
Re 2: Photos usually do the trick. The last one was a Chinese seller on eBay from whom I bought some 'Warm White' LED bulbs. I provided photos to the seller showing a comparison between the green tinged light from their bulbs and a proper warm white LED bulb from another source. The whole dispute consisted of several exchanged messages which of course Paypal can reference in determining the merit of a dispute. In this instance the seller agreed to take the bulbs back and refund me and I sent the bulbs back and they acknowledged receiving them, then failed to refund me. I just pointed all this out to Paypal and was refunded.
I would agree with you about Paypal's fees, particularly where currency conversions are concerned. I use them for eBay and small internet transactions where I don't want to provide my CC details. I find them very useful for these purposes. I don't see ?Pay providing protection against sellers on eBay, nor can I see it being a means whereby I can receive funds when selling things on eBay.
I personally have never encountered a serious problem when using Paypal. I don't love them but am happy to use them when it suits.
In your research on the topic, have you found any video demos of Apple Pay using the Apple Watch?
At the September 2014 event, Eddie Cue Demoed Apple Pay using the iPhone 6 ... [B][I] before [/I][/B] the [I] "One More Thing" [/I] reveal of the Apple Watch. They said that Apple Watch Supports Apple Pay, showed a slide -- [B][I] but did not demo [/I][/B] the Apple Watch using Apple Pay.
I've surfed in vain looking for a video of an Apple Watch Apple Pay demo.
I personally have never encountered a serious problem when using Paypal. I don't love them but am happy to use them when it suits.
Over the years I've had a couple issues, but I'd still prefer to use PayPal as a buffer between certain types of internet-based purchases. At least until such time as ?Pay expands into a more complete solution.
".......upscale grocer Whole Foods saw a 400 percent increase in contactless payments since the service launched."
Other grocery stores such as Safeway, QFC, etc would definitely see something like this if they adopted ApplePay.
I would think they would see an uptick, but I'm under the impression that Whole Foods is a higher-end grocery store where people will more likely be using 1) iPhones and 2) the latest iPhones. There might even be an argument to be made about people that are drawn to the image of Whole Foods might also be more inclined to adopt newer and/or safer technologies, like ?Pay.
We regularly frequent Panera Bread -- usually for takeout. They were one of the first places we were able to pay with Apple Pay. Even better, they added Apple Pay to their iPhone/iPad app -- we order from home then when we got to Panera, the order is ready and already paid for -- painless.
I bring this up, because I can foresee a similar, shopping-service, offering by upscale grocery stores -- where you shop from home, place the order, and pre-pay with Apple Pay ... When you arrive at the store, they're notified as you approach, they retrieve your order from other pre-picked orders, hand it to you -- and you avoid checkout altogether.
Next step, they deliver the order to your car ...
Next step, they deliver the order to your home at a scheduled time ...
Then, there will be 3rd-party pickup/delivery services that do the deliveries -- not just groceries, but virtually any products available from local merchants.
Amazon, is attempting to provide this kind of service.
You mentioned Safeway ... We've long been fans of the Big Red S ...
Had the best meats, produce and service ...
Unfortunately, they were sold (last year, I think) and their quality has noticeably deteriorated ...
This saddens me, in particular, because, while at IBM, I worked on a special project with Safeway. In 1970, we installed a prototype of an automated checkout/inventory system in the Fremont, CA store. The cash registers were connected to a custom mini-computer, the IBM 29SM (Super Market), in the back room. As sales were rung up, the Store's Inventory on the 29SM was immediately updated. Then, several times during the day, the 29SM would transmit the store's inventory status to the Safeway Data Center, where it was used to analyze and model the Store's inventory requirements for the next day, week, etc. This was sent to the Safeway Warehouse where inventory was picked, then delivered to the Store,
This was before BarCode scanners -- so all the items were keyed into the Cash Register ... with little apparent differences* to the customer ... except there was a 40-column printer that replaced the Cash Register Tape -- the customer would get an itemized receipt showing SKU, Description, Price, Discount, Taxable, etc. It also handled 2-fer, 3-fer, mix-and-match discounts -- even when the items were not rung up together. All this is quite commonplace today -- but it was unique -- the first of its kind in 1970.
* fewer errors and fewer delays to call for a price ...
The Fremont store had, AIR, 15 checkout stations. Two of these were connected to the 29SM and provided the itemized receipts. These 2 checkout stations had long lines while the others had, maybe, 2-3 customers waiting ... The customers really preferred the speed, accuracy and itemized receipts -- we interviewed them.
The Fremont store had a lunch counter type restaurant -- you could buy a steak or some fresh crab, etc. -- and then have it prepared and eat it at the counter ... Nice.
I lived in ChicagoLand at the time and really enjoyed the trips to the IBM San Jose plant, Safeway Headquarters (then in Oakland) and the Fremont store -- usually a week, or so every month ...
Sadly, IBM went on an austerity kick and cancelled the program ...
SolIn your research on the topic, have you found any video demos of Apple Pay using the Apple Watch?
No, but I also haven't found any video of the sun rising tomorrow despite my assurance that it will happen.
@SolipsismY: I was attempting to bring a, sometimes contentions, dialog back to a more civil discussion,
Someone on the Apple Developer Forums mentioned a demo of Apple Pay on Apple Watch.
My experience on Apple Developer Forms is that you have to be careful not to push too hard -- or you just get ignored.
I wanted to ask the poster for some specifics of the demo he mentioned ... or at least a link ...
But I did my own homework, re-watched the September announcement, including Eddie Cue's iPhone 6 Apple Pay demo -- later followed by the entire Apple Watch Announcement. Apple Pay on Apple Watch was mentioned, but not demoed.
Then, i surfed for alternate sources of an Apple Watch Apple Pay demo ... no luck!
As a last resort, since yu are quite knowledgeable on the subject -- I asked, here, if you had seen any such demo ...
Comments
"No need to be rude", dude? Lol. Look at your own post.
When you felt offended, you resorted to rudeness. Just as I did.
Sol, I've been re-reading our posts on Apple Pay on the Apple Watch. With the image from Apple's site, and the text you underlined -- I think you are correct to infer that the Apple Watch can process Apple Pay payments without an iPhone connection.
That bothers me, because everything else that I've heard or read, leads me to infer that an iPhone is required.
The inability to get direct answers to direct questions, suggests to me that Apple is intentionally being vague -- possibly for competitive reasons for an unreleased product.
To support this, I submit an updated copy of the annotated image that you submitted -- a source of confusion, if not contention:
The Apple image shows a Delta Pass -- As I understand it you would need GPS and/or iBeacons to get an alert that you're near a Delta counter/gate.
From everything I've heard and read -- the Apple Watch does not have a GPS radio -- too much battery drain.
The image text I highlighted with a dotted blue underline leads me to infer that the Apple Watch, by itself, can recognize iBeacons -- otherwise how would it know to alert you?
However, I do not believe that the Apple Watch, by itself, can recognize iBeacons.* Apparently, neither do you -- indicated by: your comments highlighted above:
* There are several reasons that iBeacons do not seem appropriate for the Apple Watch:
From the above, I infer that the iPhone will be required to effectively use PassBook passes on the Apple Watch.
I think we're being gamed a little ...
So, I'll see your Apple Pay payment infer -- and raise you a Passbook pass infer ...
This is hard
You can't buy things online with iTunes. People have had their bank accounts drained by people accessing their Paypal. In order to take money out of Paypal, you link it to a bank account. In order to top up Paypal or pay beyond the balance, you link a credit or debit card.
If someone uses the same password for Paypal as they do for another service or they are subjected to a basic phishing attack, all someone has to do is login to Paypal and they can make transactions that will drain not only their balance but the bank account linked to cards.
You're effectively placing your own personal bank account behind your email address plus a password you think up. You're covered to an extent for fraudulent transactions but it's not a very secure setup. To login to your own bank account or make card payments, you have to use way more authentication than an email plus password. That's where all the fraudulent purchases come from on eBay, they just have to steal login credentials and then tell you to ship the goods, usually to another country.
[VIDEO][/VIDEO]Totally agree. In one of Steve jobs interviews he explained what is different at Apple that no other company does which is "the work" is the most important thing and para phrasing Steve jobs: "Johnny (Ive) I'm surprised you take it personally, I thought you were better than that"
Apple simply designs it the right way. INSANELY GREAT. They design things the way they want to use it, not to quickly get something to market asap. Case in point Apple watch, and look at the uproar that is happening right now because others perceive it as late. Yes Apple takes this make it perfect to the extreme but look at the result, they have dominated market after market. It is all about Steve's vision . Look at all the wearable crap being rushed to market destined to die on the vine and the gutter tech press gleeful about all the crap that is coming out article after article telling you how wonderful it is bought and paid for by their manufacturers and how Apple is late to market and in trouble because they perceive Apple watch won't get the numbers. Of course when Apple watch takes off and kills them you won't see any retractions, these media whores are what they are.
The correct way to view these hatchet job articles about Apple is to take the view that " ah yes it's because Apple is so successful they are forced to write lie after lie, if they were not having to write these hatchet job product reviews and pieces it would indicate Apple was NOT a threat so in a perverse way it's actually a compliment. If Apple wasn't doing it right this crap being written wouldn't be here.
This the essential reason why Google and most of the others fail. The throwing things at the market and seeing if they will stick is fine if one have bucket loads of cash to fritter away on fantasies, but eventually when the money gets tight, reality sets in and this method comes to a halt. Most of these Google projects and beta products are not doing much. I call it at best mediocre to bad design, done by people who don't really care. Another name for this disease is "just good enough" or "that will do" design. And these things designed at Google are examples:
Google glass fail
Google + fail
Google car fail
Google barges fail
Google tv fail
Chrome book fail
Google chrome cast fail
Google you tube monitzation fail
Google gears remember that pile of }^#}#^}
The only reason Google can keep doing this is the money they have from search. Eventually it's all going to dry up and when that happen I would not want to be holding stock.
The list goes on and on just do a yahoo search to find out all the projects that have been axed or discontinued
Wrong
What!
You can't see an issue with the security of a PIN? A 4 digit number that, not only can people visually watch you input if they so wish, there are thousands of hacked card readers that copy the card number and log your PIN. The card number can then be cloned to a blank card, the stolen PIN used and stuff either bought or money taken from the account from an ATM.
Yes, the transactions are encrypted but only after leaving the terminal which is why they are attacking the terminals directly.
Tokenization uses a different number every time, like a rolling code. There is no actual user data sent. Even if the scammer got this data, once it has been used, it's useless to them. There is no useable log in codes like the PIN as the data means nothing until it is sent to Apple for verification. The data that confirms the fingerprint is encrypted into the token before it leaves the phone.
The token number is 19 digits and used once. So you have a 9,999,999,999,999,999,999 chance of getting the right token code before it changes.
Yes, in some circumstances your PIN might be observed, but that information is of no use without the card.
I think you are confusing chip and pin a bit with mag stripe. As far as I can ascertain, a chip and pin card can not be cloned. I found a reference to an instance where a very sophisticated gang did manage to compromise some terminals and were able to obtain some details from cards, but the cards they produced were not chip and pin and had to be exported to countries that still used mag-stripe cards. That operation occurred in the UK and appears to be a one-off, so I suspect the banks and terminal manufacturers have quietly plugged that hole in their systems. The chip and pin system also generates a token and does not communicate all of the account details, though I believe the terminal may be the part that does that. Again, I found reference to one instance in Spain where this authentication token had been compromised. As that exploit also does not appear to have been replicated I would suspect it is technically difficult to implement and the banks and terminal manufacturers have possibly plugged that hole also.
Given that chip and pin has been around for a many years here in Europe and elsewhere and that there are 1.62 Billion cards, and who knows how many trillions of transactions annually , the actual reportage of exploits I have been able to find is miniscule so the systems security would appear to be very high. The sophistication and effort required to circumvent the system is far greater than that required to circumvent the touch ID on an iPhone.
All you need to make a chip and pin card payment is the number and CVV just like any other card. That's how they load it into ?Pay. You seem to be thinking about fraud at a checkout level and not online. If someone installs a keylogger on your computer, they can get the exact same details you are entering into a website and use it for fraudulent transactions. This isn't possible with ?Pay. There's also the PIN route, which they don't always cover the user for:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/saving/article-2215223/Victim-chip-pin-fraud-Its-YOUR-fault-insist-banks.html
"Card fraud is estimated to cost British banks £341million a year, and the majority is paid back to victims"
Nobody knows what effort it would take to circumvent touch ID on an iPhone or if it's even possible. What we do know is that all current methods can be used for fraud quite easily and there are no details of a way to circumvent ?Pay. If you have one, I'm sure Apple would like to hear about it. Banks seems to be confident enough in it.
I believe I only had 1 of 5 cards get authenticated into ?Pay with only the basic information on the card. The rest required additional authentication methods which then required me to answer some additional information for the setup. I think they ranged from an email, SMS, last 4 of SSN, or a phone call with secret question. A couple had several options to choose from, and at least one had only one additional security option at the time. This all depends on the card issue, and if they feel it's too insecure they could easily require that you re-do your ?Pay setup for that card at will.
What kind of buyer and seller protection does PayPal offer when money is pulled from your checking account?
I am not entirely sure what you mean. They seller is protected in the sense they don't get an acknowledgement of payment until Paypal have managed to withdraw the funds from my account - they are then credited with the transaction amount. As a buyer, I am protected in the sense that if I don't receive the goods (it's up to the seller to use a verified delivery method) or they are not as described or are defective, I can approach Paypal with evidence supporting my dispute and if they agree with it, they will refund my account and debit the sellers account if they can or will fund it themselves if necessary.
I have had several disputes with sellers, and in every instance, Paypal have reimbursed my account.
1) Let's say your PayPal account is hacked and founds are removed from your bank via the checking and routing numbers you have on file. You're saying PayPal will refund you every single dollar stolen the moment you inform them about it? I've never heard of such protection from PayPal, but this is common with credit card companies. In fact, like many have an extra email account specifically for less secure communication where they have to give an email to companies, I have a Google Voice phone number for the same reason, as well a checking account tied to my PayPal account that only has funds shifted to it specifically for the purchases I tend to make with PayPal.
2) "…and if they agree with it…" sounds pretty flimsy if someone mails you something that you claim isn't what you ordered and they say it is, or vice versa. How does PayPal work out these he said she said complaints? With a credit card company they don't care and will instantly refund you the funds with some basic boilerplate expectation that if they do happen to file charges that you will testify to your complaint. Unless the customer is found to excessively abuse this system, at which point they might find it in their best interest to simply let you go as a customer, there will never be an issue. On top of that, your credit card company isn't charging you an additional fees for using their service the way PayPal does, which I find can be excessive.
Other grocery stores such as Safeway, QFC, etc would definitely see something like this if they adopted ApplePay.
I would think they would see an uptick, but I'm under the impression that Whole Foods is a higher-end grocery store where people will more likely be using 1) iPhones and 2) the latest iPhones. There might even be an argument to be made about people that are drawn to the image of Whole Foods might also be more inclined to adopt newer and/or safer technologies, like ?Pay.
1) Let's say your PayPal account is hacked and founds are removed from your bank via the checking and routing numbers you have on file. You're saying PayPal will refund you every single dollar stolen the moment you inform them about it? I've never heard of such protection from PayPal, but this is common with credit card companies. In fact, like many have an extra email account specifically for less secure communication where they have to give an email to companies, I have a Google Voice phone number for the same reason, as well a checking account tied to my PayPal account that only has funds shifted to it specifically for the purchases I tend to make with PayPal.
2) "…and if they agree with it…" sounds pretty flimsy if someone mails you something that you claim isn't what you ordered and they say it is, or vice versa. How does PayPal work out these he said she said complaints? With a credit card company they don't care and will instantly refund you the funds with some basic boilerplate expectation that if they do happen to file charges that you will testify to your complaint. Unless the customer is found to excessively abuse this system, at which point they might find it in their best interest to simply let you go as a customer, there will never be an issue. On top of that, your credit card company isn't charging you an additional fees for using their service the way PayPal does, which I find can be excessive.
Ah, got you. No, you are quite correct, if my Paypal account was hacked then I doubt there would be any protection, however, Paypal does not have my bank details, only CC details - Visa Debit and Mastercard. I believe that if I were to raise a dispute with those companies over being hacked, that they might provide some protection. I am also protected by my transaction amount limits. I can only see my Paypal account being hacked through use of a key logger, in which case, I would have far greater concerns than Paypal. I have a fairly strong Paypal password and I use an email address specifically for that and a couple other financial purposes. I also tend to cut and paste one part of login details for financial related sites which is a partial defense against keyloggers, and I use a Mac.
Re 2: Photos usually do the trick. The last one was a Chinese seller on eBay from whom I bought some 'Warm White' LED bulbs. I provided photos to the seller showing a comparison between the green tinged light from their bulbs and a proper warm white LED bulb from another source. The whole dispute consisted of several exchanged messages which of course Paypal can reference in determining the merit of a dispute. In this instance the seller agreed to take the bulbs back and refund me and I sent the bulbs back and they acknowledged receiving them, then failed to refund me. I just pointed all this out to Paypal and was refunded.
I would agree with you about Paypal's fees, particularly where currency conversions are concerned. I use them for eBay and small internet transactions where I don't want to provide my CC details. I find them very useful for these purposes. I don't see ?Pay providing protection against sellers on eBay, nor can I see it being a means whereby I can receive funds when selling things on eBay.
I personally have never encountered a serious problem when using Paypal. I don't love them but am happy to use them when it suits.
In your research on the topic, have you found any video demos of Apple Pay using the Apple Watch?
At the September 2014 event, Eddie Cue Demoed Apple Pay using the iPhone 6 ... [B][I] before [/I][/B] the [I] "One More Thing" [/I] reveal of the Apple Watch. They said that Apple Watch Supports Apple Pay, showed a slide -- [B][I] but did not demo [/I][/B] the Apple Watch using Apple Pay.
I've surfed in vain looking for a video of an Apple Watch Apple Pay demo.
Over the years I've had a couple issues, but I'd still prefer to use PayPal as a buffer between certain types of internet-based purchases. At least until such time as ?Pay expands into a more complete solution.
No, but I also haven't found any video of the sun rising tomorrow despite my assurance that it will happen.
We regularly frequent Panera Bread -- usually for takeout. They were one of the first places we were able to pay with Apple Pay. Even better, they added Apple Pay to their iPhone/iPad app -- we order from home then when we got to Panera, the order is ready and already paid for -- painless.
I bring this up, because I can foresee a similar, shopping-service, offering by upscale grocery stores -- where you shop from home, place the order, and pre-pay with Apple Pay ... When you arrive at the store, they're notified as you approach, they retrieve your order from other pre-picked orders, hand it to you -- and you avoid checkout altogether.
Next step, they deliver the order to your car ...
Next step, they deliver the order to your home at a scheduled time ...
Then, there will be 3rd-party pickup/delivery services that do the deliveries -- not just groceries, but virtually any products available from local merchants.
Amazon, is attempting to provide this kind of service.
You mentioned Safeway ... We've long been fans of the Big Red S ...
Had the best meats, produce and service ...
Unfortunately, they were sold (last year, I think) and their quality has noticeably deteriorated ...
This saddens me, in particular, because, while at IBM, I worked on a special project with Safeway. In 1970, we installed a prototype of an automated checkout/inventory system in the Fremont, CA store. The cash registers were connected to a custom mini-computer, the IBM 29SM (Super Market), in the back room. As sales were rung up, the Store's Inventory on the 29SM was immediately updated. Then, several times during the day, the 29SM would transmit the store's inventory status to the Safeway Data Center, where it was used to analyze and model the Store's inventory requirements for the next day, week, etc. This was sent to the Safeway Warehouse where inventory was picked, then delivered to the Store,
This was before BarCode scanners -- so all the items were keyed into the Cash Register ... with little apparent differences* to the customer ... except there was a 40-column printer that replaced the Cash Register Tape -- the customer would get an itemized receipt showing SKU, Description, Price, Discount, Taxable, etc. It also handled 2-fer, 3-fer, mix-and-match discounts -- even when the items were not rung up together. All this is quite commonplace today -- but it was unique -- the first of its kind in 1970.
* fewer errors and fewer delays to call for a price ...
The Fremont store had, AIR, 15 checkout stations. Two of these were connected to the 29SM and provided the itemized receipts. These 2 checkout stations had long lines while the others had, maybe, 2-3 customers waiting ... The customers really preferred the speed, accuracy and itemized receipts -- we interviewed them.
The Fremont store had a lunch counter type restaurant -- you could buy a steak or some fresh crab, etc. -- and then have it prepared and eat it at the counter ... Nice.
I lived in ChicagoLand at the time and really enjoyed the trips to the IBM San Jose plant, Safeway Headquarters (then in Oakland) and the Fremont store -- usually a week, or so every month ...
Sadly, IBM went on an austerity kick and cancelled the program ...
Ahh ... what might have been ...
@SolipsismY: I was attempting to bring a, sometimes contentions, dialog back to a more civil discussion,
Someone on the Apple Developer Forums mentioned a demo of Apple Pay on Apple Watch.
My experience on Apple Developer Forms is that you have to be careful not to push too hard -- or you just get ignored.
I wanted to ask the poster for some specifics of the demo he mentioned ... or at least a link ...
But I did my own homework, re-watched the September announcement, including Eddie Cue's iPhone 6 Apple Pay demo -- later followed by the entire Apple Watch Announcement. Apple Pay on Apple Watch was mentioned, but not demoed.
Then, i surfed for alternate sources of an Apple Watch Apple Pay demo ... no luck!
As a last resort, since yu are quite knowledgeable on the subject -- I asked, here, if you had seen any such demo ...
I spent over an hour researching the subject.
I am offended by your flippant response.
Is that a serious comment?
Very serious!
That wasn't my intention, as my raspberry-making emoticon will attest. I was attempting to be humorous by my glib comment, not flippant.
OK, let's leave it at that!