MacBook, MacBook Air or MacBook Pro: which one is right for you?

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  • Reply 21 of 120
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 1,127member

    elijahg said:
    MplsP said:
    jdw said:
    MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro: which is right for you?
    The answer is "NONE."

    Virtually no keyboard tactile feedback, no SD card slot (yes, Cupertino worshipers, some of us really use it and want it built-in), not even one USB-A port (which is still ubiquitous today and shall be 10 years hence), no MagSafe, no LED on charging cable, no extended power cord in the box, no glowing Apple logo on back (not necessary, but even Apple showed it off those machines their latest keynote video because they look lovely to behold), and ever thinning designs that leave little room for adequate cooling on higher performance MacBook "Pro" models -- all spell a BIG "NO!" when it comes to this veteran Mac lover choosing any of Apple's notebooks today.

    The mid-2015 15" MBP top end model with dGPU is the last great MacBook Pro that really is "Pro" in terms of practical usability that allows me to lead a largely dongle free life.  Performance even today isn't that bad either.  I DARE Apple to bring it back with a modern GPU and CPU and one USB-C/TB3 port added (and nothing else taken away), and see how well it sales FAR OUTSHINE any other MacBook Pro.  I DARE APPLE TO DO IT.  I dare Apple to finally THINK DIFFERENT on behalf The Rest of Us rather themselves.

    YAWN.
    JDW raises several valid points about design choices of the new MacBooks that were a step backwards in terms of usability. by your boredom I gather you don't care about usability?
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Yeah, moved on and adapting just fine to Windows. The worst result Apple could wish for.
    Edit: JDW beat me to it!
    2x more active users today that only picking emojis on their Touch Bar?  If that's your conclusion.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 22 of 120
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 1,127member
    Right, enough of that, because I do have something useful to share, and it's about trackpads.  With my experience so far, the size of a trackpad is quite similar to a high-DPI mice, but doing in an opposite way:  in a mouse, Higher DPI means less movement, whereas a trackpad, larger area means more continuous with slower movement.  I can turn up the tracking speed of course, but that doesn't mean my hands always had to move that fast, and if I put my finger in a "bad spot" (say close to a corner), then chances of hitting the edge while moving are pretty high.

    But I'm not sure how much superior a 2x larger area would provide.  I have a 12" MacBook and the trackpad is only longer than older ones by a tiny margin, even with issues I mentioned, all of these are avoidable (like finding a better place to put fingers), and re-positioning my fingers when moving isn't a big deal.  Besides that, I got some ancient systems with even smaller touchpads and they're fine as well.  So I'd really like to hear some experiences so I can better understand the thing or two.
    edited November 2018 watto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 120
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 1,127member
    Thanks, that was a good review & comparison -- which is needed.  It's confusing.

    But it omitted my personal favorite:  the 2017 MacBook Air.
    At $999 it starts off $200 cheaper.  But too, it has (in the minds of many) a better keyboard.  And, arguably a better processor (at least graphics wise) than the rebranded m series processor in the 2018 model -- particularly if you spend the extra $150 for an i7.  

    But most importantly:  It's PCIe storage is expandable which makes it far more future proof.  Or, another way of looking at it:  if I bought a $1200 2018 model, I would also have to spend an additional $200-$400 for a 256Gb or (preferably) a 500Gb because you only get one shot with its soldered on storage.  That makes it 40%-60% more than the 2017 model!   But, with the 2017 model I feel comfortable starting with the base level 128Gb of storage and upgrading when and if I needed more -- at which time it would likely be cheaper as well.

    But, actually, that's my second favorite.
    My favorite will arrive on Friday.  It's a 2014 MBA with 8Gb Ram and 128Gb of PCIe storage -- for $220.
    Admittedly, its a toy sized 11" model.  But, it'll still do what I want it to do -- casual computing with decent access to the Numbers spreadsheets I maintain.
    When Unibody MacBooks came out, many people said they hate chicklets, then when things move to Retina, they said they hate the travel, but when the new butterfly cames out, there are many said they like it.  That's a clear indication of which direction it should take, because I don’t remember anyone who said they like MacBooks’ keyboards better than the rest of the notebooks except this time.  It's radical and sure not as reliable, but not worth to give up on it.

    There is a complete opposite example and that's ThinkPad, even they moved to chiclet style (that caused a lot of hate too), it's still 1.8mm travel with good ergonomic keycaps.  Their users are happy because they believe things should always be that way, and overtime it becomes a part of the ThinkPads, but being that conservative is not Apple’s style.
    edited November 2018 thtwatto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 120
    That is simple. The model which is the most easy (and cheap) to swap the battery. Repairability is something that is not mentioned here.
  • Reply 25 of 120
    "Apple has more choices than ever before in its portable lineup"
    I was going to comment that this is wrong, because there were so many more models during the John Sculley and Gil Amelio eras in the 90's, but actually it seems that it was mainly the desktop side that was crowded. For example, in 1994 Apple released 7 Powerbooks and 3 Newtons but a grand total of 30 desktops (3 LC, 15 (!) Performa, 1 Quadra, 8 Power Macintosh, 3 Workgroup Server). https://everymac.com/systems/by_year/macs-released-in-1994.html
    When Steve Jobs came back the lineup was gradually reconstructed to become the four combinations of portable/desktop and consumer/pro that we're almost still clinging to, although I agree with the article author that it's close between some of them.
    On the other hand, things were upgradable by then. You could even find aftermarket CPU upgrades for laptops! Not that I would see that coming back, due to the extra thickness with socketed CPUs. But the lack of SO-DIMMs and m.2 is really a shame, Apple! At the moment there is no right Mac for me.
    I also don't like the butterfly keyboards, but maybe that's a personal preference? I tried the newest Macbook Pro keys last week, and I just can't stand the low travel. Do you other people actually get used to it and like it, versus just getting used to it and putting up with it?
    I'll hold on to my retina MBP 2012 until it dies. Would upgrade RAM and change battery if it could be done.
  • Reply 26 of 120
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,708member
    bluefire1 said:
    I think most people would be best served by the MacBook Air. They typically browse the Internet, make purchases, download music, videos and photos and read articles.  I have last year‘s MacBook Pro with Touch Bar, and it far exceeds what I need in a computer.   I saw the MacBook, and for me, the 12 inch screen was just too small. 13 inches makes all the difference. 
    True...  But for less than 10% more you get a far more capable MBP.   Why settle for less?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 120
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,708member
    MplsP said:
    jdw said:
    MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro: which is right for you?
    The answer is "NONE."

    Virtually no keyboard tactile feedback, no SD card slot (yes, Cupertino worshipers, some of us really use it and want it built-in), not even one USB-A port (which is still ubiquitous today and shall be 10 years hence), no MagSafe, no LED on charging cable, no extended power cord in the box, no glowing Apple logo on back (not necessary, but even Apple showed it off those machines their latest keynote video because they look lovely to behold), and ever thinning designs that leave little room for adequate cooling on higher performance MacBook "Pro" models -- all spell a BIG "NO!" when it comes to this veteran Mac lover choosing any of Apple's notebooks today.

    The mid-2015 15" MBP top end model with dGPU is the last great MacBook Pro that really is "Pro" in terms of practical usability that allows me to lead a largely dongle free life.  Performance even today isn't that bad either.  I DARE Apple to bring it back with a modern GPU and CPU and one USB-C/TB3 port added (and nothing else taken away), and see how well it sales FAR OUTSHINE any other MacBook Pro.  I DARE APPLE TO DO IT.  I dare Apple to finally THINK DIFFERENT on behalf The Rest of Us rather themselves.

    YAWN.
    JDW raises several valid points about design choices of the new MacBooks that were a step backwards in terms of usability. by your boredom I gather you don't care about usability?
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Obviously that dead horse is still kicking.   People don't like to pay premium dollars and get second best.
    jdw
  • Reply 28 of 120
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    Look, I've been using Macs since they had 9" B&W screens too. I'd gladly take four 40Gbps TB3 ports in the fastest MacBook Pro ever made over some random bespoke ports in a heartbeat, and yeah I'm about to drop $5K on one because it will make my life better as a result, because it's a tool I use to get work done. I cannot wait to get rid of all my shitty USB-A cords and replace them with USB-C, recycle my Firewire devices and get a little portable hub for the odd times I need random shit like an SD card reader or USB-A port or ethernet. It's really not that big of a deal, and I would never refer to them as "stripped down" or gutted by any means. There are very simple solutions for people who need legacy connectors, but there's absolutely no reason you need a built-in USB-A port in 2018. 

    And you don't know what Jobs would've done, he was the one who ripped out all the legacy ports and switched to USB-A, it's hard to imagine he'd not be more or less doing exactly what they're doing right now for the same reasons he did back then.
    edited November 2018 macpluspluselijahgbuststylesStrangeDayswilliamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 29 of 120
    MplsP said:
    jdw said:
    MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro: which is right for you?
    The answer is "NONE."

    Virtually no keyboard tactile feedback, no SD card slot (yes, Cupertino worshipers, some of us really use it and want it built-in), not even one USB-A port (which is still ubiquitous today and shall be 10 years hence), no MagSafe, no LED on charging cable, no extended power cord in the box, no glowing Apple logo on back (not necessary, but even Apple showed it off those machines their latest keynote video because they look lovely to behold), and ever thinning designs that leave little room for adequate cooling on higher performance MacBook "Pro" models -- all spell a BIG "NO!" when it comes to this veteran Mac lover choosing any of Apple's notebooks today.

    The mid-2015 15" MBP top end model with dGPU is the last great MacBook Pro that really is "Pro" in terms of practical usability that allows me to lead a largely dongle free life.  Performance even today isn't that bad either.  I DARE Apple to bring it back with a modern GPU and CPU and one USB-C/TB3 port added (and nothing else taken away), and see how well it sales FAR OUTSHINE any other MacBook Pro.  I DARE APPLE TO DO IT.  I dare Apple to finally THINK DIFFERENT on behalf The Rest of Us rather themselves.

    YAWN.
    JDW raises several valid points about design choices of the new MacBooks that were a step backwards in terms of usability. by your boredom I gather you don't care about usability?
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Obviously that dead horse is still kicking.   People don't like to pay premium dollars and get second best.
    It's not second best if the first best is an imaginary Homer Car MacBook that doesn't exist. 
    elijahgStrangeDayswilliamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 120
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,708member
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    Most people who walk into an Apple show room need a sales person to tell them which of the three models is which -- they're all pretty much the same minimalist design.   Previously I likened the MBP to the original muscle car:   The GTO was simply a Lemans with a Bonneville engine squeezed in.

    It's a shame.
    People have been complaining about lack of ports and Magsafe.
    People have been complaining about lack of upgradablity
    People have been complaining about the shitty keyboard

    Apple's response has been a big FU and doubled down on each.

    Personally, I predict that the iPad with an external keyboard and touchpad will take out most of the bottom half of the MacBook line - certainly the MacBook and probably half of the MBA line.  Hopefully that gives the MBP team the impetus to start making the MacBook Pro a Pro level machine in more ways than simply squeezing in a fast processor from Intel.
    Pylonselijahgjdw
  • Reply 31 of 120
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,708member
    DuhSesame said:
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    I think you should be better off switching.  Ever since Apple moved to Intel, there's always a PC laptop offers more key travel, 2x more USBs with thicker, heavier and better graphics and cooling solutions, except no one is complaining back then.

    All in all, Mac communities today rather panic than seeing the truth.
    But switching involves giving up a great OS and ecosystem to get great hardware.  
    ... That's a problem for some.

    I have been wondering why Apple is so stuck on that extreme minimalist design?
    Is it that they're afraid to compete head to head with a "real" pro laptop?  One with a great keyboard and that is repairable and upgradable -- and that has ports people can actually use?  Maybe even, God forbid, a swapable battery?
    elijahgjdw
  • Reply 32 of 120
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,708member
    MplsP said:
    jdw said:
    MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro: which is right for you?
    The answer is "NONE."

    Virtually no keyboard tactile feedback, no SD card slot (yes, Cupertino worshipers, some of us really use it and want it built-in), not even one USB-A port (which is still ubiquitous today and shall be 10 years hence), no MagSafe, no LED on charging cable, no extended power cord in the box, no glowing Apple logo on back (not necessary, but even Apple showed it off those machines their latest keynote video because they look lovely to behold), and ever thinning designs that leave little room for adequate cooling on higher performance MacBook "Pro" models -- all spell a BIG "NO!" when it comes to this veteran Mac lover choosing any of Apple's notebooks today.

    The mid-2015 15" MBP top end model with dGPU is the last great MacBook Pro that really is "Pro" in terms of practical usability that allows me to lead a largely dongle free life.  Performance even today isn't that bad either.  I DARE Apple to bring it back with a modern GPU and CPU and one USB-C/TB3 port added (and nothing else taken away), and see how well it sales FAR OUTSHINE any other MacBook Pro.  I DARE APPLE TO DO IT.  I dare Apple to finally THINK DIFFERENT on behalf The Rest of Us rather themselves.

    YAWN.
    JDW raises several valid points about design choices of the new MacBooks that were a step backwards in terms of usability. by your boredom I gather you don't care about usability?
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Obviously that dead horse is still kicking.   People don't like to pay premium dollars and get second best.
    It's not second best if the first best is an imaginary Homer Car MacBook that doesn't exist. 
    But it does exist -- it just doesn't run MacOS. 
    elijahg
  • Reply 33 of 120
    DuhSesame said:
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    I think you should be better off switching.  Ever since Apple moved to Intel, there's always a PC laptop offers more key travel, 2x more USBs with thicker, heavier and better graphics and cooling solutions, except no one is complaining back then.

    All in all, Mac communities today rather panic than seeing the truth.
    But switching involves giving up a great OS and ecosystem to get great hardware.  
    ... That's a problem for some.

    I have been wondering why Apple is so stuck on that extreme minimalist design?
    Is it that they're afraid to compete head to head with a "real" pro laptop?  One with a great keyboard and that is repairable and upgradable -- and that has ports people can actually use?  Maybe even, God forbid, a swapable battery?
    The “ports people can actually use” trope is pure nonsense. From a single one of those ports you can do like half a dozen or more completely different things without taking up the other three. Anyone married to two decade-old 5Gbps USB-A ports is no “real pro” no matter how much the braying neckbeards mourn for it. ONE MacBook chassis ever had HDMI, yet people act like it was there forever.

    MplsP said:
    jdw said:
    MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro: which is right for you?
    The answer is "NONE."

    Virtually no keyboard tactile feedback, no SD card slot (yes, Cupertino worshipers, some of us really use it and want it built-in), not even one USB-A port (which is still ubiquitous today and shall be 10 years hence), no MagSafe, no LED on charging cable, no extended power cord in the box, no glowing Apple logo on back (not necessary, but even Apple showed it off those machines their latest keynote video because they look lovely to behold), and ever thinning designs that leave little room for adequate cooling on higher performance MacBook "Pro" models -- all spell a BIG "NO!" when it comes to this veteran Mac lover choosing any of Apple's notebooks today.

    The mid-2015 15" MBP top end model with dGPU is the last great MacBook Pro that really is "Pro" in terms of practical usability that allows me to lead a largely dongle free life.  Performance even today isn't that bad either.  I DARE Apple to bring it back with a modern GPU and CPU and one USB-C/TB3 port added (and nothing else taken away), and see how well it sales FAR OUTSHINE any other MacBook Pro.  I DARE APPLE TO DO IT.  I dare Apple to finally THINK DIFFERENT on behalf The Rest of Us rather themselves.

    YAWN.
    JDW raises several valid points about design choices of the new MacBooks that were a step backwards in terms of usability. by your boredom I gather you don't care about usability?
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Obviously that dead horse is still kicking.   People don't like to pay premium dollars and get second best.
    It's not second best if the first best is an imaginary Homer Car MacBook that doesn't exist. 
    But it does exist -- it just doesn't run MacOS. 
    Apple is not going to make that for you. The sooner you realize that the better off you are just adapting to reality and realizing that these machines are not less capable and maybe you are by not finding a way to adapt your workflow, and getting on board with where the technology is going, because that’s where Apple is going too, with or without you. 
    elijahgStrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 34 of 120
    DuhSesame said:
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    I think you should be better off switching.  Ever since Apple moved to Intel, there's always a PC laptop offers more key travel, 2x more USBs with thicker, heavier and better graphics and cooling solutions, except no one is complaining back then.

    All in all, Mac communities today rather panic than seeing the truth.
    But switching involves giving up a great OS and ecosystem to get great hardware.  
    ... That's a problem for some.

    I have been wondering why Apple is so stuck on that extreme minimalist design?
    Is it that they're afraid to compete head to head with a "real" pro laptop?  One with a great keyboard and that is repairable and upgradable -- and that has ports people can actually use?  Maybe even, God forbid, a swapable battery?
    The “ports people can actually use” trope is pure nonsense. From a single one of those ports you can do like half a dozen or more completely different things without taking up the other three. Anyone married to two decade-old 5Gbps USB-A ports is no “real pro” no matter how much the braying neckbeards mourn for it. ONE MacBook chassis ever had HDMI, yet people act like it was there forever.

    MplsP said:
    jdw said:
    MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro: which is right for you?
    The answer is "NONE."

    Virtually no keyboard tactile feedback, no SD card slot (yes, Cupertino worshipers, some of us really use it and want it built-in), not even one USB-A port (which is still ubiquitous today and shall be 10 years hence), no MagSafe, no LED on charging cable, no extended power cord in the box, no glowing Apple logo on back (not necessary, but even Apple showed it off those machines their latest keynote video because they look lovely to behold), and ever thinning designs that leave little room for adequate cooling on higher performance MacBook "Pro" models -- all spell a BIG "NO!" when it comes to this veteran Mac lover choosing any of Apple's notebooks today.

    The mid-2015 15" MBP top end model with dGPU is the last great MacBook Pro that really is "Pro" in terms of practical usability that allows me to lead a largely dongle free life.  Performance even today isn't that bad either.  I DARE Apple to bring it back with a modern GPU and CPU and one USB-C/TB3 port added (and nothing else taken away), and see how well it sales FAR OUTSHINE any other MacBook Pro.  I DARE APPLE TO DO IT.  I dare Apple to finally THINK DIFFERENT on behalf The Rest of Us rather themselves.

    YAWN.
    JDW raises several valid points about design choices of the new MacBooks that were a step backwards in terms of usability. by your boredom I gather you don't care about usability?
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Obviously that dead horse is still kicking.   People don't like to pay premium dollars and get second best.
    It's not second best if the first best is an imaginary Homer Car MacBook that doesn't exist. 
    But it does exist -- it just doesn't run MacOS. 
    Apple is not going to make that for you. The sooner you realize that the better off you are just adapting to reality and realizing that these machines are not less capable and maybe you are by not finding a way to adapt your workflow, and getting on board with where the technology is going, because that’s where Apple is going too, with or without you. 
    Dear, you want pay 5000 bucks for a blingbling which serves no purpose for majority of its intended audience? OK, fine. Nobody else will, though. So, you're right, in your own reality.

    I'm quite satisfied with Dell XPS 15" hackintosh, with memory I can swap and flash storage that is not extortion, a dream apple will never deliver.
    edited November 2018 GeorgeBMacelijahgjdw
  • Reply 35 of 120
    Yes, Apple does offer more choices of MacBook now. But the trouble is, they all have the same horrible keyboard with hardly any travel. 
    GeorgeBMacPylonsjdw
  • Reply 36 of 120
    DuhSesame said:
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    I think you should be better off switching.  Ever since Apple moved to Intel, there's always a PC laptop offers more key travel, 2x more USBs with thicker, heavier and better graphics and cooling solutions, except no one is complaining back then.

    All in all, Mac communities today rather panic than seeing the truth.
    But switching involves giving up a great OS and ecosystem to get great hardware.  
    ... That's a problem for some.

    I have been wondering why Apple is so stuck on that extreme minimalist design?
    Is it that they're afraid to compete head to head with a "real" pro laptop?  One with a great keyboard and that is repairable and upgradable -- and that has ports people can actually use?  Maybe even, God forbid, a swapable battery?
    The “ports people can actually use” trope is pure nonsense. From a single one of those ports you can do like half a dozen or more completely different things without taking up the other three. Anyone married to two decade-old 5Gbps USB-A ports is no “real pro” no matter how much the braying neckbeards mourn for it. ONE MacBook chassis ever had HDMI, yet people act like it was there forever.

    MplsP said:
    jdw said:
    MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro: which is right for you?
    The answer is "NONE."

    Virtually no keyboard tactile feedback, no SD card slot (yes, Cupertino worshipers, some of us really use it and want it built-in), not even one USB-A port (which is still ubiquitous today and shall be 10 years hence), no MagSafe, no LED on charging cable, no extended power cord in the box, no glowing Apple logo on back (not necessary, but even Apple showed it off those machines their latest keynote video because they look lovely to behold), and ever thinning designs that leave little room for adequate cooling on higher performance MacBook "Pro" models -- all spell a BIG "NO!" when it comes to this veteran Mac lover choosing any of Apple's notebooks today.

    The mid-2015 15" MBP top end model with dGPU is the last great MacBook Pro that really is "Pro" in terms of practical usability that allows me to lead a largely dongle free life.  Performance even today isn't that bad either.  I DARE Apple to bring it back with a modern GPU and CPU and one USB-C/TB3 port added (and nothing else taken away), and see how well it sales FAR OUTSHINE any other MacBook Pro.  I DARE APPLE TO DO IT.  I dare Apple to finally THINK DIFFERENT on behalf The Rest of Us rather themselves.

    YAWN.
    JDW raises several valid points about design choices of the new MacBooks that were a step backwards in terms of usability. by your boredom I gather you don't care about usability?
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Obviously that dead horse is still kicking.   People don't like to pay premium dollars and get second best.
    It's not second best if the first best is an imaginary Homer Car MacBook that doesn't exist. 
    But it does exist -- it just doesn't run MacOS. 
    Apple is not going to make that for you. The sooner you realize that the better off you are just adapting to reality and realizing that these machines are not less capable and maybe you are by not finding a way to adapt your workflow, and getting on board with where the technology is going, because that’s where Apple is going too, with or without you. 
    We have yet to see what Apple will do.   For years the MacBook faithful said iPad would never ever get a touchpad -- yet Apple added one with iOS12.   Because you're happy paying premium prices for second rate hardware and willing to adapt/downgrade to it does not mean that others are.  Have fun -- and enjoy playing with your dongles. 

    Personally, I have more faith in Apple than that.
    They let the Mac line sink into mediocrity.   I don't think it will stay there.  I hope it won't.
    Pylonselijahgjdw
  • Reply 37 of 120
    To borrow and modify a famous hockey quote.. Apple is skating to where the puck is going to be. All these complaints about a company that has been the only computer willing to break from the past consistently and frequently. No need to rehash all the choices made for the millionth times here..but if people don't understand by now what Apple's hardware philosophy is these arguments will continue forever. 


    StrangeDaysfastasleepwatto_cobra
  • Reply 38 of 120
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,320administrator
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    That's the thing -- they are. They are considering "the rest of us," meaning the vast majority of the computer market, with the Mac for possibly the first time since the bondi iMac. I'm not sure how many times I have to point it out that the target just isn't you, and probably also not a decent percent of the long-time AI reader base. Keep sending that feedback, if you'd like, I encourage it. Just realize that you are a drop in the bucket.

    If a Windows PC is the right tool for your job, just get that, man. You're not going to get what you want from Apple.
    edited November 2018 christopher126StrangeDaysfastasleepmacpluspluswatto_cobrawilliamlondon
  • Reply 39 of 120
    I'm still using a 2017 MacBook as my main device...but I recognize the future of 'computing' is closer to the iPad than the laptop.

    This just maybe my last laptop. I'm considering a new iMac and a new iPhone Xs Max. There, done! :)

    Best.
    macpluspluswatto_cobra
  • Reply 40 of 120
    croprcropr Posts: 1,053member
    jdw said:
    It's a dead horse that's been beaten for going on its third year now. When does it stop? Most "pros" have moved on and are adapting just fine.
    Whoever clicked "Informative" on your Yawn post must be ready for bed themselves, if they aren't already fast asleep.

    The only place where many of those "Pros have moved onto" is Windows.  I for one will NOT be doing that.  Seriously, Apple is taking a shotgun to the Mac faithful by incorporating extremist levels of minimalism into their designs.  I've loved Macs since 1984, not because they were the most feature rich machines relative to Windoze, but because they were PRACTICAL TO ME.  The late 2016 and newer MBP's are no longer machines that I deem practical, and it doesn't matter one teensy tiny bit to me if a few other people do enjoy the excessive minimalism.  Again, I dare Apple to give us a full featured notebook selling along side their existing line.  Let's see who's right.  My guess is that I am right.  For who in their right mind would buy a stripped down machine for $4500 when you can get more features for that amount of money, and your life is better as a result?  Apple removed key features for no sensible reason at all.  It's a crying shame.  I continue to send Apple feedback about it, and encourage like-minded Mac users to do the same.  If we pound hard enough and long enough, the company just might wise up, especially if the media joins us.

    Don't some of you get tired of your fellow Mac users blindly worshipping every decision out of Cupertino as if somehow Steve Jobs is still alive and blessed it?  Steve is no longer around and it shows.  Steve was pro-minimalism too, but at least he knew where to draw the line.  Johnny Ive's line is "so little design there's no design at all."  It's like a blank piece of paper, yet without the paper.  Sorry, but that's not practical for me, and there's a lot more people out there like me too.  Not every Mac user loves what Apple has been doing to the Mac since Steve's departure from this planet.  And we let our voices be heard, both in online forums and at Apple's feedback channel. 

    And before a Cupertino Worshipper comes along and bashes me for having the guts to say all this, time and time again, consider well that Apple has 3 different notebook lines! Folks, did you hear that?  THREE DIFFERENT LINES!  These "I don't need ports, and I don't care about dongles or tactile feedback" people who perpetually defend Apple need only buy a MacBook or MacBook AIR to satisfy their lusting after zero practicality.  Why must Apple also gut the MacBook Pro?  It makes NO SENSE at all.  Apple should keep the Pro model feature rich, bridging the needs of today (which includes USB-A and an SD card slot) with the needs of tomorrow, which includes USB-C/TB3.  They have the MacBook and AIR to strip down to their heart's content.  Why must they also gut the Pro?  Again, it's the dumbest business decision I've ever come across.  And don't give me the "well, they needed to be consistent across the line and really push USB-C too, which they couldn't if they included USB-A."  All speculation and wild guesses, and I don't even care if these guesses are correct.

    It's time for Apple to consider THE REST OF US.  They aren't now.
    That's the thing -- they are. They are considering "the rest of us," meaning the vast majority of the computer market, with the Mac for possibly the first time since the bondi iMac. I'm not sure how many times I have to point it out that the target just isn't you, and probably also not a decent percent of the long-time AI reader base. Keep sending that feedback, if you'd like, I encourage it. Just realize that you are a drop in the bucket.

    If a Windows PC is the right tool for your job, just get that, man. You're not going to get what you want from Apple.
    I am one of "the rest of us".  2018 will be the first year since I started company in 2012 that I did not buy a Mac for the company, because no  Mac fulfils the requirements for a rather standard 2018 software development machine: 8th generation i7, 16 GB RAM, 512 GB SSD and  a decent keyboard (the escape key included).

    The touch bar is just an expensive, non productive gimmick for software development.  When will Apple listen to its customers  and realize that a MacBookPro without a real escape key is a MacBookProAmateur

    The machine that approaches best my requirements is the 2017 non Touch Bar MBP.   But it is 45% more expensive and 20% slower than the Ubuntu based Dell XPS13 I have bought.

    If Apple would upgrade the 2017 non touch model to an modern processor and add the T2 chip without price increase, I would buy one.
    GeorgeBMacwilliamlondon
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