Ultimately, the issue is yours... Any of you that own an iPhone, iPad, Mac, whatever and you start placing personal data on it, its up to no one else but YOU to backup any data that you do NOT want to lose.. The article is quite clear that the technical requirements and the amount of time required for Apple to try and recover data on millions of repair devices is clearly not possible. So some people can do it, thats nice, still should have been backed up before their data is lost by whatever means.
As pointed out in the article. and in a couple posts, which some people clearly seem to want to ignore, is that it's NOT up to Apple or any other party to protect your data. If you are foolish enough to not make use of many methods of backing up the data on your personal devices, when you flush it, break it, ...or lose it or have it stolen, even if you get it back, chances are none of your data will still be on it... And if it is, lucky you..
The only fault here is perhaps Apple should put a link somewhere obvious that will take them to a page to help set users set up iCloud for the completely technically challenged people out there.. and maybe even an occasional notification to remind them as they continue to use the device without an obvious backup.
If Apple has another fault, iCloud should be offering at least 20-25gb free if not making the 50gb level free. 5gb really isn't enough any more.
Finally Apple forums, its their forums, they can moderate them as they see fit, There are probably good reasons (to Apple) that they moderate things the way they do and they are not sharing. Perhaps one day someone in the know will spill why they moderate the way they do and remove recovery postings and perhaps others..
No one is suggesting that Apple should do data recovery. No one is suggesting that Apple shouldn't be allowed to censor their own support forum.
But if you're going to censor it, you GOTTA OWN IT. Only APPLE can delete forum posts at Apple Support Community. Only APPLE can ban users. The APPLE SUPPORT COMMUNITY is an APPLE OWNED and APPLE MODERATED forum.
They delete posts that merely say "hey, wet phones can be brought back to life, look around for someone" They choose to delete those, but leave "There is no hope" That is NOT OKAY.
Apple Insider--when someone shines a light on that--be human. Admit--that this is absolutely NOT OKAY. They choose to do it, so they gotta OWN IT. There is no defense here.
Lastly--I'm a mom who learned how to fix iPhones, I'm not a unicorn. Neither is Louis. I have trained over 400 students to microsolder and do board repair. There are plenty of people out there who can do this work affordably and with good success. Apple should not have a problem advising people to just look around a bit with no guarantee or endorsement. They should not be recommending prohibitively expensive $2000+ services that also buy our supplies and learn from our videos like the rest of the mom and pops, and they should not ever be telling people that hardware repair is "impossible"
Oh, and both you and CBC are FLAT OUT WRONG when you both claim Apple doesn't offer support in directing customers to third-party options for data recovery that Apple themselves cannot perform. I've PERSONALLY gone to Apple Stores in my area on behalf of my users with their devices seeking assistance, and was told, in each event data recovery was needed, that they cannot do it, but third-party options are available, but cannot be guaranteed. So I would advise you, and the CBC, to retract that bogus claim.
I'd argue that directing a typical user to a 'data recovery service' that starts at $2000 is the practical equivalent of saying "not possible" But that's not the point.
The point is the Apple-owned, and Apple-moderated Apple Support Community Forum IS THE online support arm of Apple, Inc who makes the device. It absolutely appears to be an authority on iPhone Hardware Repair because....IT'S APPLE.
That is incorrect. “THE” online support arm of Apple is support.apple.com.
As I mentioned above, my brother’s experience with Apple referred data recovery wasn’t anywhere near $2000, so I’m not sure where you’re getting that it starts at $2000.
And where does support.apple.com take you? Try it. Type in iPhone water damage, be an end user for a minute facing the potential loss of all the baby pictures on the phone. You'll read a largely useless article that ends with--post a question here on the forum.
I think it is great the your brother got quoted data recovery for $500-700, but that is not the common experience. The common experience is being told "there is no option" and the second most common experience is being referred to Drivesavers which starts at $1900 although they aren't doing anything differently than anyone else. In the independent repair community, there are excellent technicians everywhere who recover data from dead iPhones every day--and the going rate is $200-$500. Heck, even my Apple Store will give referrals to us-but that is unusual. The problem is the policy-driven common experience is to lead users into thinking that their data is gone forever when that is not true.
My evidence for "what is the common experience" is talking with thousands of customers, independent repair technicians, and their customers about iPhone data recovery.
Did you tell the CBC that you get referrals rarely? They seem to have omitted that point in their zeal to quote the one support rep they talked to.
No one is suggesting that Apple should do data recovery. No one is suggesting that Apple shouldn't be allowed to censor their own support forum.
But if you're going to censor it, you GOTTA OWN IT. Only APPLE can delete forum posts at Apple Support Community. Only APPLE can ban users. The APPLE SUPPORT COMMUNITY is an APPLE OWNED and APPLE MODERATED forum.
They delete posts that merely say "hey, wet phones can be brought back to life, look around for someone" They choose to delete those, but leave "There is no hope" That is NOT OKAY.
Apple Insider--when someone shines a light on that--be human. Admit--that this is absolutely NOT OKAY. They choose to do it, so they gotta OWN IT. There is no defense here.
Lastly--I'm a mom who learned how to fix iPhones, I'm not a unicorn. Neither is Louis. I have trained over 400 students to microsolder and do board repair. There are plenty of people out there who can do this work affordably and with good success. Apple should not have a problem advising people to just look around a bit with no guarantee or endorsement. They should not be recommending prohibitively expensive $2000+ services that also buy our supplies and learn from our videos like the rest of the mom and pops, and they should not ever be telling people that hardware repair is "impossible"
Oh, and both you and CBC are FLAT OUT WRONG when you both claim Apple doesn't offer support in directing customers to third-party options for data recovery that Apple themselves cannot perform. I've PERSONALLY gone to Apple Stores in my area on behalf of my users with their devices seeking assistance, and was told, in each event data recovery was needed, that they cannot do it, but third-party options are available, but cannot be guaranteed. So I would advise you, and the CBC, to retract that bogus claim.
I'd argue that directing a typical user to a 'data recovery service' that starts at $2000 is the practical equivalent of saying "not possible" But that's not the point.
The point is the Apple-owned, and Apple-moderated Apple Support Community Forum IS THE online support arm of Apple, Inc who makes the device. It absolutely appears to be an authority on iPhone Hardware Repair because....IT'S APPLE.
That is incorrect. “THE” online support arm of Apple is support.apple.com.
As I mentioned above, my brother’s experience with Apple referred data recovery wasn’t anywhere near $2000, so I’m not sure where you’re getting that it starts at $2000.
And where does support.apple.com take you? Try it. Type in iPhone water damage, be an end user for a minute facing the potential loss of all the baby pictures on the phone. You'll read a largely useless article that ends with--post a question here on the forum.
I think it is great the your brother got quoted data recovery for $500-700, but that is not the common experience. The common experience is being told "there is no option" and the second most common experience is being referred to Drivesavers which starts at $1900 although they aren't doing anything differently than anyone else. In the independent repair community, there are excellent technicians everywhere who recover data from dead iPhones every day--and the going rate is $200-$500. Heck, even my Apple Store will give referrals to us-but that is unusual. The problem is the policy-driven common experience is to lead users into thinking that their data is gone forever when that is not true.
My evidence for "what is the common experience" is talking with thousands of customers, independent repair technicians, and their customers about iPhone data recovery.
Did you tell the CBC that you get referrals rarely? They seem to have omitted that point in their zeal to quote the one support rep they talked to.
I gave up on apple store repairs long ago - with my indy dealer I can do a drop for diagnosis between meetings, and a second drop for repair - the Apple Store wanted to sidebar my in service computers for a week or more - I have heard from colleagues they were told 'just buy a new mac and you have 14 days to return it'... Really...?
Yes this thread is getting regrettably intense - yet does it root to what I might term the heart of technological colonialism? I am thinking of Cory Doctorow's 'LittleBrother' at this moment...?
Ultimately, the issue is yours... Any of you that own an iPhone, iPad, Mac, whatever and you start placing personal data on it, its up to no one else but YOU to backup any data that you do NOT want to lose.. The article is quite clear that the technical requirements and the amount of time required for Apple to try and recover data on millions of repair devices is clearly not possible. So some people can do it, thats nice, still should have been backed up before their data is lost by whatever means.
As pointed out in the article. and in a couple posts, which some people clearly seem to want to ignore, is that it's NOT up to Apple or any other party to protect your data. If you are foolish enough to not make use of many methods of backing up the data on your personal devices, when you flush it, break it, ...or lose it or have it stolen, even if you get it back, chances are none of your data will still be on it... And if it is, lucky you..
The only fault here is perhaps Apple should put a link somewhere obvious that will take them to a page to help set users set up iCloud for the completely technically challenged people out there.. and maybe even an occasional notification to remind them as they continue to use the device without an obvious backup.
If Apple has another fault, iCloud should be offering at least 20-25gb free if not making the 50gb level free. 5gb really isn't enough any more.
Finally Apple forums, its their forums, they can moderate them as they see fit, There are probably good reasons (to Apple) that they moderate things the way they do and they are not sharing. Perhaps one day someone in the know will spill why they moderate the way they do and remove recovery postings and perhaps others..
Do you really want your life's data (and IP?) on some (for many foreign) multinational cloud server? Who just deprecated both desktop server and an elegant seamless local backup solution known as Time Capsule?
Are all roads seemingly increasingly leading to giving all our data to Apple's servers?
With my limited understanding and if Apple is meaningfully committed to privacy I would be most impressed with local desktop based easy GUI S/MIME encryption certificate options (3rd party verifiable) for apple mail...
I likely own more personal Apple products than 99% of AI readers***. That doesn’t keep me from being objective. Your last condescending line about how CBC apparently can’t be relied on for complete reporting, is ironic at best.
Even given your above reply that you have had Apple staff tell you alternative recovery options is suspect, especially after your above comment regarding the CBC. It’s a little late to say “oh yeah, thanks for pointing that out”. You accuse CBC of incomplete reporting yet you fail to address this obvious issue in your article until a reader points it out? A little convenient I think, and coming after the article seems suspect without being able to prove it.
In the article you also gloss over and dismiss Apple apparently deleting references in its forums to alternative recovery options.You make some weak excuse of legal quagmires of referencing 3rd parties, and then you completely castrate your own argument by trumpeting how it is absurd for someone to confuse Apple users in Apple forums with Apple employees. This in addition to claiming in your comment reply above that you have been told by Apple staff in service situations that there are other options.
Your fail to take Apple to task for deleting this information with the weakest non-sene I have ever read... “well this is Apple’s house, so well we can’t say anything about that”.... seriously.... ? Isn’t that the whole point of the article?
Do you actually believe your article is objective and balanced?
It’s definitely not IMO helping dispel the Apple people as sheep stereotype.
***my personal current Apple products include an iPhone Xs Max, Apple Watch series 4, iPad Mini 5, 3rd gen 12.9 iPad Pro, Apple pencil 1 and 2, multiple Apple TV HD and 4K, MacBook Pro, iMac, and more....... that doesn’t the numerous additional Apple products that I have purchased for other members of my household or other mostly retired Apple products I still own and have not sold.....
No, I don't. This is an editorial, and is clearly labeled as such. By definition, editorials have opinions. The CBC tried to call theirs objective, and news, though, so you should look elsewhere.
Saying that there are options is not the same as saying what the options are, and recommending a service. This is where your argument falls flat. In regards to everything else, you're welcome to believe what you want, but given that you're having a hard time understanding what "editorial" means, I'm not certain that you're a good judge.
Oh, also? Your appeal to authority by listing your Apple products is hollow. Based on what we know about forum-goers, at least, this probably puts you in the lower 25% of readership as far as hardware ownership goes.
Edit: Look at that, comment below this one. The proo
My proactive comment on the number of Apple products I own and use regularly was not a “call to authority”, but a proactive rebuttal to zealots tempted to immediately dismiss me as someone with a bias against Apple products and the company.
I would never claim to speak with the same “authority” as you do. I would only embarrass myself.
Thank-you for authoritatively pointing out that more than 75% of people here on the forums personally own and actively use more Apple products than I do. So not counting mostly retired equipment, more than 3/4 of people here personally own and actively use current models of 2 or more iPhones, plus 2 or more Apple Watches, plus 3 or more iPads, along with 3 or more Apple pencils, plus 4 or more Apple TVs, plus 2 or more MacBooks, along with 2 or more iMacs.
Even for people on this forum, such a claim seems utterly preposterous, but I bow to the unquestionable “authority” of your non objective opinions.
Thank-you for sparing your readership from the scourge of unbiased opinions with the undeniable authority of your non-objective helpfully biased editorials.
I hear rumours that Apple will soon be offering their kook-aid as subscription service.
I likely own more personal Apple products than 99% of AI readers***. That doesn’t keep me from being objective. Your last condescending line about how CBC apparently can’t be relied on for complete reporting, is ironic at best.
Even given your above reply that you have had Apple staff tell you alternative recovery options is suspect, especially after your above comment regarding the CBC. It’s a little late to say “oh yeah, thanks for pointing that out”. You accuse CBC of incomplete reporting yet you fail to address this obvious issue in your article until a reader points it out? A little convenient I think, and coming after the article seems suspect without being able to prove it.
In the article you also gloss over and dismiss Apple apparently deleting references in its forums to alternative recovery options.You make some weak excuse of legal quagmires of referencing 3rd parties, and then you completely castrate your own argument by trumpeting how it is absurd for someone to confuse Apple users in Apple forums with Apple employees. This in addition to claiming in your comment reply above that you have been told by Apple staff in service situations that there are other options.
Your fail to take Apple to task for deleting this information with the weakest non-sene I have ever read... “well this is Apple’s house, so well we can’t say anything about that”.... seriously.... ? Isn’t that the whole point of the article?
Do you actually believe your article is objective and balanced?
It’s definitely not IMO helping dispel the Apple people as sheep stereotype.
***my personal current Apple products include an iPhone Xs Max, Apple Watch series 4, iPad Mini 5, 3rd gen 12.9 iPad Pro, Apple pencil 1 and 2, multiple Apple TV HD and 4K, MacBook Pro, iMac, and more....... that doesn’t the numerous additional Apple products that I have purchased for other members of my household or other mostly retired Apple products I still own and have not sold.....
No, I don't. This is an editorial, and is clearly labeled as such. By definition, editorials have opinions. The CBC tried to call theirs objective, and news, though, so you should look elsewhere.
Saying that there are options is not the same as saying what the options are, and recommending a service. This is where your argument falls flat. In regards to everything else, you're welcome to believe what you want, but given that you're having a hard time understanding what "editorial" means, I'm not certain that you're a good judge.
Oh, also? Your appeal to authority by listing your Apple products is hollow. Based on what we know about forum-goers, at least, this probably puts you in the lower 25% of readership as far as hardware ownership goes.
Edit: Look at that, comment below this one. The proo
My proactive comment on the number of Apple products I own and use regularly was not a “call to authority”, but a proactive rebuttal to zealots tempted to immediately dismiss me as someone with a bias against Apple products and the company.
I would never claim to speak with the same “authority” as you do. I would only embarrass myself.
Thank-you for authoritatively pointing out that more than 75% of people here on the forums personally own and actively use more Apple products than I do. So not counting mostly retired equipment, more than 3/4 of people here personally own and actively use current models of 2 or more iPhones, plus 2 or more Apple Watches, plus 3 or more iPads, along with 3 or more Apple pencils, plus 4 or more Apple TVs, plus 2 or more MacBooks, along with 2 or more iMacs.
Even for people on this forum, such a claim seems utterly preposterous, but I bow to the unquestionable “authority” of your non objective opinions.
Thank-you for sparing your readership from the scourge of unbiased opinions with the undeniable authority of your non-objective helpfully biased editorials.
I hear rumours that Apple will soon be offering their kook-aid as subscription service.
Denying that you made a call to authority by doubling down on it is unusual, but okay.
As far as the rest, here, I'm not even sure what you're going on about. Opinions are by absolute definition non-objective. In regard to the facts, you've got all the proof you need in the thread that Apple can, and does, direct folks to data recovery, which was the main tenet of your original post.
Here's a guide for you, though: if you don't want to read opinions that may vary from your own, skip pieces across the internet and other forms of media labeled "editorial." It is an explicit sign that there are opinions in it, here and elsewhere.
Do you really want your life's data (and IP?) on some (for many foreign) multinational cloud server?
Who just deprecated both desktop server and an elegant seamless local backup solution known as Time Capsule?
Are all roads seemingly increasingly leading to giving all our data to Apple's servers?
With my limited understanding and if Apple is meaningfully committed to privacy I would be most impressed with local desktop based easy GUI S/MIME encryption certificate options (3rd party verifiable) for apple mail...
There are of course other options to back up the data that is on your iDevices other than iCloud, and you can let paranoia about whether its secure or private or not guide your choices. Ultimately, no matter how you do it, you are responsible for protecting the data you create, you can trust iCloud to do it, or you can find another way. If none of those will satisfy you, then your options are limited. As the alternatives are probably far less safe, secure or private..
iphone is easy to use for granny. back up in cloud or other way might not be so intuitive for those chaps - SD card or some sort of removable storage components might be better suitable for those chaps - but it is design choice and depend upon how large is that market (young chaps of course know back up steps since they got computer science course in Jr. high if not earlier... save a game progress is within their up brings, back up just come as second nature;-). IMHO. (of course, apple want you to use cloud storage service... wait until 5G, those chaps can directly beam up photos to cloud without back up step, that might solve big problem - phone just a UI instead ;-).
Every so often comes a post like this from Appleinsider, where I lose my confidence that there is such a thing as independent objective-based journalism.
Before I state my issues, I would like to commend the last paragraph of the article - as with anything in life I believe strongly in holding oneself accountable and solving the problem as an individual thereby reducing reliance on external support. That fantastic advice here:
1. ..."always back up your data and don't rely on anybody else to save it for you" 2. "have a repair shop you trust and it doesn't matter if it's Apple or a talented third-party..."
However, some of the issues with this article are as follows:
1. Why come to the aid of Apple to attempt to justify a lack of assistance or dedication to supporting the end user based on a company's scale? Doing so does not point out poor journalism for the CBC - all it does is demonstrate your justification for Apple's poor service in this unique user-caused end-circumstance scenario.
What is the point in Steve founding a company on a belief system if you can just change it on a 'whim' in the name of big business. That's just sad. Steve would visit every Apple Store - I'm not sure Tim Cook finds the time between cameo's and coffees on morning television shows.
To your point, yes Apple is an electronics company now. And, yes they are no longer a small bespoke computer company. And, we it should follow that we just accept that their service quality has dropped to compensate for this scale. In my own conversations with senior apple support regarding my own product issues, they acknowledged this as much.
2. Thank you for bringing up Louis Rossmann. However, mentioning him does not support the article's position as it only weakens it further for the readers that are familiar with him. For those that do not know, Louis Rossmann is a staunch supporter right to repair and is very vocal with regard to apple attempts to forceable reduce (by design) the ability to repair your own machines without Apple's help or authorization. As an example, a firmware update that Apple used to nuke 3rd party retina displays from working with their MBP. To be clear, these displays are LG and identical to Apple's screens - the only difference is Apple hasn't permitted them. It is far more technical than I pretend to be, so youtube it and watch it for yourself.
In any event. I am a huge Apple fan however, my honeymoon with Apple has been ruined by their choices as of late.
I likely own more personal Apple products than 99% of AI readers***. That doesn’t keep me from being objective. Your last condescending line about how CBC apparently can’t be relied on for complete reporting, is ironic at best.
Even given your above reply that you have had Apple staff tell you alternative recovery options is suspect, especially after your above comment regarding the CBC. It’s a little late to say “oh yeah, thanks for pointing that out”. You accuse CBC of incomplete reporting yet you fail to address this obvious issue in your article until a reader points it out? A little convenient I think, and coming after the article seems suspect without being able to prove it.
In the article you also gloss over and dismiss Apple apparently deleting references in its forums to alternative recovery options.You make some weak excuse of legal quagmires of referencing 3rd parties, and then you completely castrate your own argument by trumpeting how it is absurd for someone to confuse Apple users in Apple forums with Apple employees. This in addition to claiming in your comment reply above that you have been told by Apple staff in service situations that there are other options.
Your fail to take Apple to task for deleting this information with the weakest non-sene I have ever read... “well this is Apple’s house, so well we can’t say anything about that”.... seriously.... ? Isn’t that the whole point of the article?
Do you actually believe your article is objective and balanced?
It’s definitely not IMO helping dispel the Apple people as sheep stereotype.
***my personal current Apple products include an iPhone Xs Max, Apple Watch series 4, iPad Mini 5, 3rd gen 12.9 iPad Pro, Apple pencil 1 and 2, multiple Apple TV HD and 4K, MacBook Pro, iMac, and more....... that doesn’t the numerous additional Apple products that I have purchased for other members of my household or other mostly retired Apple products I still own and have not sold.....
No, I don't. This is an editorial, and is clearly labeled as such. By definition, editorials have opinions. The CBC tried to call theirs objective, and news, though, so you should look elsewhere.
Saying that there are options is not the same as saying what the options are, and recommending a service. This is where your argument falls flat. In regards to everything else, you're welcome to believe what you want, but given that you're having a hard time understanding what "editorial" means, I'm not certain that you're a good judge.
Oh, also? Your appeal to authority by listing your Apple products is hollow. Based on what we know about forum-goers, at least, this probably puts you in the lower 25% of readership as far as hardware ownership goes.
Edit: Look at that, comment below this one. The proof you wanted.
Wow what a colourful amount of debate this article has triggered.
A few quick things to dpkroh and MIke.
dpkroh:
1. Your points are somewhat harsh in tone, but trying to decipher through your rather obvious distain for Apple I believe you are on to something in general. Read my comments below directed to Mike for more info.
Mike:
1. I see you are referred to as an administrator on Appleinsider. Whether that means you are a journalists or administrative support is unclear, but I read it as a representative of Appleinsider. So read the following comments with the understanding that I view you as Appleinsider.
2. Therefore, your rather juvenile and aggressive response to a reader of Appleinsider, troll, or otherwise, lowers my respect for Appleinsider and reduces this place from professional to unprofessional. I am disappointed in such a reply. Be better. Period. Regardless of a readers tone - since you love Apple so much, just imagine Apple responded to an upset customer with your approach. They would not be a technological empire, they would be a empire of dirt and their customer service rating would be "in the lower 25%."
3. This is an editorial and by definition (as it is stated) is a positional opinion. I think the disagreeable comments are stemming from the rather weak premise/ justification coupled with the harsh tone toward the CBC. Ultimately, if you want to write an opinion piece and call it an editorial it should probably provide better justification than a conversation over beers with buddies. But that's all this is - a conversation over beers with buddies.
Read my other comment that addresses the article further and Louis Rossmann in particular.
Anyhow, I will continue to read here as I like your team, and in general you provide great coverage of Apple with the odd apple fan article and the odd anti-apple article... All in all, your team does a great job and I thank you all for the work you put into this website, this company and journalism in general.
Without it, we wouldn't have a place or a forum to read, discuss or argue.
Mike, if you are tired of trolls (assuming there must be a ton here as I don't often comment or read the comments) try not to let it come out in your writing. I know Appleinsider is passionate about what they do - just try to remain a cut above the rest in terms of how you handle it is all.
Every so often comes a post like this from Appleinsider, where I lose my confidence that there is such a thing as independent objective-based journalism.
Before I state my issues, I would like to commend the last paragraph of the article - as with anything in life I believe strongly in holding oneself accountable and solving the problem as an individual thereby reducing reliance on external support. That fantastic advice here:
1. ..."always back up your data and don't rely on anybody else to save it for you" 2. "have a repair shop you trust and it doesn't matter if it's Apple or a talented third-party..."
However, some of the issues with this article are as follows:
1. Why come to the aid of Apple to attempt to justify a lack of assistance or dedication to supporting the end user based on a company's scale? Doing so does not point out poor journalism for the CBC - all it does is demonstrate your justification for Apple's poor service in this unique user-caused end-circumstance scenario.
What is the point in Steve founding a company on a belief system if you can just change it on a 'whim' in the name of big business. That's just sad. Steve would visit every Apple Store - I'm not sure Tim Cook finds the time between cameo's and coffees on morning television shows.
To your point, yes Apple is an electronics company now. And, yes they are no longer a small bespoke computer company. And, we it should follow that we just accept that their service quality has dropped to compensate for this scale. In my own conversations with senior apple support regarding my own product issues, they acknowledged this as much.
2. Thank you for bringing up Louis Rossmann. However, mentioning him does not support the article's position as it only weakens it further for the readers that are familiar with him. For those that do not know, Louis Rossmann is a staunch supporter right to repair and is very vocal with regard to apple attempts to forceable reduce (by design) the ability to repair your own machines without Apple's help or authorization. As an example, a firmware update that Apple used to nuke 3rd party retina displays from working with their MBP. To be clear, these displays are LG and identical to Apple's screens - the only difference is Apple hasn't permitted them. It is far more technical than I pretend to be, so youtube it and watch it for yourself.
In any event. I am a huge Apple fan however, my honeymoon with Apple has been ruined by their choices as of late.
1: The post isn't about coming to the aid of Apple, as it is about the CBC's inability to cover the issue. As I mentioned, this is even after they have spoken to what I previously suspected, but have now confirmed as multiple venues who do know how Apple service works. Again. Still.
But yet, they continue to beat the drum, calling it factual and objective -- which it isn't. Say what you want, but at least we label our opinion pieces, and don't try to pass them off as reporting.
2: We've spoken about Rossmann before. The CBC's latest piece wasn't about him, and we've linked to him here so the reader, if interested, can learn more. We spoke more about him in the first piece in I think October, about what was about the fifth CBC mishandling of how service works.
And, regarding your second post, yes, I did write the article. Bylines don't pass to the forums, but are on the homepage.
On another point, once upon a time, Apple service shops were given instructions on how do to circuit-level repair. The red book that shipped with the Apple II even had circuit diagrams, and some instructions to the user about how to do it. Under Jobs, in around 1981, that program turned into a component-level repair, and remained so, well through the second-coming. He wasn't ever the proponent of user repair that some may think he was, and you don't have to look any farther than the 128K Mac or Lisa to see that.
Thanks for the advice on forum behavior. I will consider what you have said. However, trolls will be responded to accordingly.
The real issue is the right to repair. Let's hope Apple changes and starts offering 3rd party repair centers the components and replacement parts they require. There is no reason they cannot do it. They could even profit a bit selling parts to the Louis Rossmann and Jessa Jones of the world. You can buy car parts and refurbished car parts why not iPhone, iPad, and Mac components? If Apple doesn't need to be involved in great depth. They can setup a sales channel selling authentic original parts via licensed and approved wholesalers who would sell to the 3rd party repair centers. It certainly beats buying fake parts from China. The other problem is Apple using a secret private software tool to bless components tied to the T2 chip or Secure Enclave. Without that software you can't replace those parts and the device will never work if you do and cannot "bless" the component. I get the security of it but come on! Figure something out. Even if they have to pay every time they use it with a single use token or something. Apple is not alone in their stance on right to repair, Tesla is just as bad. You can't fix a Tesla yourself and they make it extremely difficult to access specialized software tools.
In China you can buy spare parts and broken system boards to scavenge for components. There's a mountain of fake however. You can build your own Franken iPhone from parts then replace the storage chip to increase the amount of storage. Granted, it's hard work and you need fairly expensive special tools and software. You will fail the first 10 attempts, etc. So yeah, it takes remarkable skill and knowledge. There is a strong demand to get things fixed like batteries, broken screens, and water damage. The devices still go obsolete and need to be replaced anyway so it really isn't going to hurt Apple sales all that much.
What is amazing is that Louis and Jessa both have access to digital schematics and interactive virtual boards to identify components and their electrical connections. Those tools were reverse engineered, its not coming from Apple. They use microscopes and high-end solder stations with precise temperature controls. Louis has a very expensive specialized machine to resolder CPU/GPUs. He's got ultrasonic circuit board cleaners, etc. Not too many people can do this work at their dining room table or on a bench in the garage. But there are a lot more people capable of doing this work if they can access the parts they need to perform repairs. Apple has gone so far as to have the Feds intercept shipments from China of refurbished parts.
"CBC inability to cover..." hmm, interesting - there are tones of papers and articles (more so on website) I would consider the writer "inability" - but as long as the info is "factral" and well documented source (reliable, which CBC reporter's experience on website for example), it is up to reader or viewer to draw conclusions with their limited ability. To me, CBC provide an "ability" to showcase current 3rd party repair house option to many granny users that most likely due to lack of technical capability to back up (either due to cost prohibition or others - for example, my iMac 700 MHz power PC G4 might not be good for many stuff, especially haven't update Java due to dail up limitation...;-). wondering those two grannies are AI users? most likely not - otherwise, they might learned thing or two from AI editorial and go direct to 3rd party repair without draw any attention of CBC's "inability" report ;-). 20/20. (my apology for fail to agree with the OP on his editorial due to my inability limitation).
Come on, this article is just misinformation.
None ever said that every device must be repaired board level, in fact the point is that a customer should have the option to:
a) get the data recovered if willing to pay (for f*ck sake, he is spending 1500$ for a smartphone, can he get some support at least, even a paid one?)
b) know that the data recovery is possible. You say that this option is available from Apple, yes? Why are they banning posts, editing comments and do whatever they can to remove this content from their SUPPORT forum? What a joke.
This is pure SCAM you are are trying to defend here.
I don't give a f*ck if they sell 10 or 10 billions devices, I paid 1500$ for a smartphone, I'm willing to pay even more to get my data back, let me get that service. You don't offer it? Let me use the support forum to get some real support then. Let other users tell me "yes, you can recover your data, go there and there".
Instead the result is Apple banning useful comments to tell you that no, data is not recoverable, scamming you, and yes, you have to lose all your data and pay us for a board replacement.
This article is useless (showing that you didn't even got the point of the issue here), and misinformation leading the user belive that "Apple has the best support ever, it doesn't care about you because it's your fault they are big and cannot stop to help you because they have too many devices".
Rossman posted a response to this editorial this morning on YouTube.
and his original post of the CBC video:
Rossmann cherry-picked what we've said. which is his prerogative. For instance, given that there are some Apple employees moderating, does not mean that they are all Apple employees moderating. I'll be giving him a call today, and we'll be talking about it.
However, if you're here to just comment on the only sections of the article that Mr. Rossmann is upset about, read the entire article here first, and the previous one regarding CBC that we linked in this article. Then, knock yourself out.
While Mr. Rossmann is entitled to his opinion, and we're glad he made a video about it to continue the conversation, there is a great deal more in the article that he did not discuss. Not the least of which are facts that the CBC declined to delve into, including the fact that Apple has no policy to tell customers that there is no hope for lost data.
In fact, they have an arrangement with DriveSavers, and other venues, for discounts. Feel free to research this yourself, by walking into an Apple Store and asking for the discount card. And, according to iPadRehab, as discussed in the forums, they do get customers directed to them by the local Apple Store.
Mike, you've been caught out. Look, we all make mistakes. You had plenty of time to own this f'up but you didn't. We would've been fine with it & moved on if you owned it like an adult. Instead, you're acting like a child by deleting posts that counter your narrative.
Mike, you've been caught out. Look, we all make mistakes. You had plenty of time to own this f'up but you didn't. We would've been fine with it & moved on if you owned it like an adult. Instead, you're acting like a child by deleting posts that counter your narrative.
If only there were dissenting points above yours proving your point about deleting contrary points! Oh, wait. There are lots of dissenting forum posts, including some from Jessica Jones from iPadRehab.
We have forum rules, conveniently linked at the bottom of the page. Feel free to express your opinion in accordance with them. I didn't have a problem with your opinion, I had a problem with how you expressed it.
And, there is no "f'up" here. Feel free to read the article in full, other than just what Mr. Rossmann discussed in his video. Apple has no policy about telling users that their data is gone forever, actively refers people to data recovery and has discounts cards for same -- and has referred customers to Jones, who was cited in the CBC video, as she said, herself, in these forums. Other forum-goers that we know have worked or work now for Apple have said so too.
I don't like that she gets deleted, because it doesn't look like she's violated the terms of service of those forums, but that's a red herring to the CBC's larger, erroneous, point.
Comments
As pointed out in the article. and in a couple posts, which some people clearly seem to want to ignore, is that it's NOT up to Apple or any other party to protect your data. If you are foolish enough to not make use of many methods of backing up the data on your personal devices, when you flush it, break it, ...or lose it or have it stolen, even if you get it back, chances are none of your data will still be on it... And if it is, lucky you..
The only fault here is perhaps Apple should put a link somewhere obvious that will take them to a page to help set users set up iCloud for the completely technically challenged people out there.. and maybe even an occasional notification to remind them as they continue to use the device without an obvious backup.
If Apple has another fault, iCloud should be offering at least 20-25gb free if not making the 50gb level free. 5gb really isn't enough any more.
Finally Apple forums, its their forums, they can moderate them as they see fit, There are probably good reasons (to Apple) that they moderate things the way they do and they are not sharing. Perhaps one day someone in the know will spill why they moderate the way they do and remove recovery postings and perhaps others..
Yes this thread is getting regrettably intense - yet does it root to what I might term the heart of technological colonialism? I am thinking of Cory Doctorow's 'LittleBrother' at this moment...?
Do you really want your life's data (and IP?) on some (for many foreign) multinational cloud server?
Who just deprecated both desktop server and an elegant seamless local backup solution known as Time Capsule?
Are all roads seemingly increasingly leading to giving all our data to Apple's servers?
With my limited understanding and if Apple is meaningfully committed to privacy I would be most impressed with local desktop based easy GUI S/MIME encryption certificate options (3rd party verifiable) for apple mail...
I would never claim to speak with the same “authority” as you do. I would only embarrass myself.
Thank-you for authoritatively pointing out that more than 75% of people here on the forums personally own and actively use more Apple products than I do. So not counting mostly retired equipment, more than 3/4 of people here personally own and actively use current models of 2 or more iPhones, plus 2 or more Apple Watches, plus 3 or more iPads, along with 3 or more Apple pencils, plus 4 or more Apple TVs, plus 2 or more MacBooks, along with 2 or more iMacs.
Even for people on this forum, such a claim seems utterly preposterous, but I bow to the unquestionable “authority” of your non objective opinions.
Thank-you for sparing your readership from the scourge of unbiased opinions with the undeniable authority of your non-objective helpfully biased editorials.
I hear rumours that Apple will soon be offering their kook-aid as subscription service.
As far as the rest, here, I'm not even sure what you're going on about. Opinions are by absolute definition non-objective. In regard to the facts, you've got all the proof you need in the thread that Apple can, and does, direct folks to data recovery, which was the main tenet of your original post.
Here's a guide for you, though: if you don't want to read opinions that may vary from your own, skip pieces across the internet and other forms of media labeled "editorial." It is an explicit sign that there are opinions in it, here and elsewhere.
There are of course other options to back up the data that is on your iDevices other than iCloud, and you can let paranoia about whether its secure or private or not guide your choices. Ultimately, no matter how you do it, you are responsible for protecting the data you create, you can trust iCloud to do it, or you can find another way. If none of those will satisfy you, then your options are limited. As the alternatives are probably far less safe, secure or private..
Before I state my issues, I would like to commend the last paragraph of the article - as with anything in life I believe strongly in holding oneself accountable and solving the problem as an individual thereby reducing reliance on external support. That fantastic advice here:
1. ..."always back up your data and don't rely on anybody else to save it for you"
2. "have a repair shop you trust and it doesn't matter if it's Apple or a talented third-party..."
However, some of the issues with this article are as follows:
1. Why come to the aid of Apple to attempt to justify a lack of assistance or dedication to supporting the end user based on a company's scale? Doing so does not point out poor journalism for the CBC - all it does is demonstrate your justification for Apple's poor service in this unique user-caused end-circumstance scenario.
What is the point in Steve founding a company on a belief system if you can just change it on a 'whim' in the name of big business. That's just sad. Steve would visit every Apple Store - I'm not sure Tim Cook finds the time between cameo's and coffees on morning television shows.
To your point, yes Apple is an electronics company now. And, yes they are no longer a small bespoke computer company. And, we it should follow that we just accept that their service quality has dropped to compensate for this scale. In my own conversations with senior apple support regarding my own product issues, they acknowledged this as much.
2. Thank you for bringing up Louis Rossmann. However, mentioning him does not support the article's position as it only weakens it further for the readers that are familiar with him. For those that do not know, Louis Rossmann is a staunch supporter right to repair and is very vocal with regard to apple attempts to forceable reduce (by design) the ability to repair your own machines without Apple's help or authorization. As an example, a firmware update that Apple used to nuke 3rd party retina displays from working with their MBP. To be clear, these displays are LG and identical to Apple's screens - the only difference is Apple hasn't permitted them. It is far more technical than I pretend to be, so youtube it and watch it for yourself.
In any event. I am a huge Apple fan however, my honeymoon with Apple has been ruined by their choices as of late.
Wow what a colourful amount of debate this article has triggered.
A few quick things to dpkroh and MIke.
dpkroh:
1. Your points are somewhat harsh in tone, but trying to decipher through your rather obvious distain for Apple I believe you are on to something in general. Read my comments below directed to Mike for more info.
Mike:
1. I see you are referred to as an administrator on Appleinsider. Whether that means you are a journalists or administrative support is unclear, but I read it as a representative of Appleinsider. So read the following comments with the understanding that I view you as Appleinsider.
2. Therefore, your rather juvenile and aggressive response to a reader of Appleinsider, troll, or otherwise, lowers my respect for Appleinsider and reduces this place from professional to unprofessional. I am disappointed in such a reply. Be better. Period. Regardless of a readers tone - since you love Apple so much, just imagine Apple responded to an upset customer with your approach. They would not be a technological empire, they would be a empire of dirt and their customer service rating would be "in the lower 25%."
3. This is an editorial and by definition (as it is stated) is a positional opinion. I think the disagreeable comments are stemming from the rather weak premise/ justification coupled with the harsh tone toward the CBC. Ultimately, if you want to write an opinion piece and call it an editorial it should probably provide better justification than a conversation over beers with buddies. But that's all this is - a conversation over beers with buddies.
Read my other comment that addresses the article further and Louis Rossmann in particular.
Anyhow, I will continue to read here as I like your team, and in general you provide great coverage of Apple with the odd apple fan article and the odd anti-apple article... All in all, your team does a great job and I thank you all for the work you put into this website, this company and journalism in general.
Without it, we wouldn't have a place or a forum to read, discuss or argue.
Mike, if you are tired of trolls (assuming there must be a ton here as I don't often comment or read the comments) try not to let it come out in your writing. I know Appleinsider is passionate about what they do - just try to remain a cut above the rest in terms of how you handle it is all.
Regards,
Canucker
But yet, they continue to beat the drum, calling it factual and objective -- which it isn't. Say what you want, but at least we label our opinion pieces, and don't try to pass them off as reporting.
2: We've spoken about Rossmann before. The CBC's latest piece wasn't about him, and we've linked to him here so the reader, if interested, can learn more. We spoke more about him in the first piece in I think October, about what was about the fifth CBC mishandling of how service works.
And, regarding your second post, yes, I did write the article. Bylines don't pass to the forums, but are on the homepage.
On another point, once upon a time, Apple service shops were given instructions on how do to circuit-level repair. The red book that shipped with the Apple II even had circuit diagrams, and some instructions to the user about how to do it. Under Jobs, in around 1981, that program turned into a component-level repair, and remained so, well through the second-coming. He wasn't ever the proponent of user repair that some may think he was, and you don't have to look any farther than the 128K Mac or Lisa to see that.
Thanks for the advice on forum behavior. I will consider what you have said. However, trolls will be responded to accordingly.
In China you can buy spare parts and broken system boards to scavenge for components. There's a mountain of fake however. You can build your own Franken iPhone from parts then replace the storage chip to increase the amount of storage. Granted, it's hard work and you need fairly expensive special tools and software. You will fail the first 10 attempts, etc. So yeah, it takes remarkable skill and knowledge. There is a strong demand to get things fixed like batteries, broken screens, and water damage. The devices still go obsolete and need to be replaced anyway so it really isn't going to hurt Apple sales all that much.
What is amazing is that Louis and Jessa both have access to digital schematics and interactive virtual boards to identify components and their electrical connections. Those tools were reverse engineered, its not coming from Apple. They use microscopes and high-end solder stations with precise temperature controls. Louis has a very expensive specialized machine to resolder CPU/GPUs. He's got ultrasonic circuit board cleaners, etc. Not too many people can do this work at their dining room table or on a bench in the garage. But there are a lot more people capable of doing this work if they can access the parts they need to perform repairs. Apple has gone so far as to have the Feds intercept shipments from China of refurbished parts.
and his original post of the CBC video:
However, if you're here to just comment on the only sections of the article that Mr. Rossmann is upset about, read the entire article here first, and the previous one regarding CBC that we linked in this article. Then, knock yourself out.
While Mr. Rossmann is entitled to his opinion, and we're glad he made a video about it to continue the conversation, there is a great deal more in the article that he did not discuss. Not the least of which are facts that the CBC declined to delve into, including the fact that Apple has no policy to tell customers that there is no hope for lost data.
In fact, they have an arrangement with DriveSavers, and other venues, for discounts. Feel free to research this yourself, by walking into an Apple Store and asking for the discount card. And, according to iPadRehab, as discussed in the forums, they do get customers directed to them by the local Apple Store.
We have forum rules, conveniently linked at the bottom of the page. Feel free to express your opinion in accordance with them. I didn't have a problem with your opinion, I had a problem with how you expressed it.
And, there is no "f'up" here. Feel free to read the article in full, other than just what Mr. Rossmann discussed in his video. Apple has no policy about telling users that their data is gone forever, actively refers people to data recovery and has discounts cards for same -- and has referred customers to Jones, who was cited in the CBC video, as she said, herself, in these forums. Other forum-goers that we know have worked or work now for Apple have said so too.
I don't like that she gets deleted, because it doesn't look like she's violated the terms of service of those forums, but that's a red herring to the CBC's larger, erroneous, point.