Ahh the dress issue never goes away... Remember we all have choice where we worship. If the people at given Church do not meet your idea of what is needed find a church that fits your ideas. I would say the job interview analogy is one worth mention. Keep in mind at a job interview you are trying to impress "would be" boss. You want the "would be" boss to think you have your stuff together. At Church one must ask are they trying to impress God with how they dress? God already knows we are not perfect. God does not care how we dress. I think there are some out there who still just don't get it with this issue.
Just my two cents. I am not bothered by a well dressed up person or a person in a t-shirt and jeans. It really does not matter at all.
Fellowship
I think it is most telling that the dress code to see a head of state is so strict that you would be refused entrance if you do not meet the requirements. There is a show of respect that protocol demands, and it isn't optional whether it's China, Russia or the U.S.
In the excercise of power, respect and veneration are demanded. You don't show the same respect to a worship service, as you show to a visit to a 7-11, as you do to a visit to a head of state.
The three events simply don't share the same relevance for those involved. The guy behind the counter selling the chili dogs can't have the FBI harass you or send your soul to hell.
There is a curious thought-world that has crept upon Christians unawares that allows them to separate spirit and matter almost to the level of Gnosticism. The change has been so gradual, and it parallelled popular culture so completely, that I believe that no one realized what was happening.
The concept of separating intentions from behavior is not new, it's just odd to see the Christians espousing what is essentially a Greek concept.
You all what I think of religion and esp. when its as strong as with Fellowship...
BUT
I am amazed on how much I agree with him on this special issue. If anything religion should be a relationship between you and your god. What anyone else think and what signals you sent to others have nothing to with it. When visiting the president you have to show respect with your dress because he can´t see whats on the inside of you and because he live in a definite time and space with cultural codes. Thats not the same with this idea of god.
So ast3r3x and BRussell think you should dress up and not use certain musical instruments during worship. Can I ask why? I am not trying to put you on the spot but to me it is either you are narrow minded or don't like things that are different than you. I mean you both are free to go to where ever you wish to worship God or not at all for that matter. Why this childish petty dis-respect to contemporary churches? Some people really could use learning the phrase "live and let live" and stop their childish attacks.
Jesus does not give a rip about how people dress. Read the Bible sometime and I ask you to show me where Jesus requires people in dresses and suits? Where is that part? Also BRussell says something grand. You submit Church should not talk about a personal relationship with God. To that I have to really wonder about your views of Christianity BRussell.
Seems the college professor type in full force once again.
Fellowship
Ha, hit a nerve, did I Fellowship? Maybe there was some truth in what I said about Protestant American Southern Christian conservatism being associated with this new type of pop church? It's a great thing, really. It's the Lutheranism of the modern day. Translate those Bibles from Latin into English! Give them to the common people!
Go to your church in shorts and listen to rock gospel and have a personal relationship with Jesus. I'll take Bach's Mass in B minor, gothic cathedrals, and none of the hocus-pocus. Live and let live.
But I am offended by your bigotry toward college professors.
Ha, hit a nerve, did I Fellowship? Maybe there was some truth in what I said about Protestant American Southern Christian conservatism being associated with this new type of pop church? It's a great thing, really. It's the Lutheranism of the modern day. Translate those Bibles from Latin into English! Give them to the common people!
Go to your church in shorts and listen to rock gospel and have a personal relationship with Jesus. I'll take Bach's Mass in B minor, gothic cathedrals, and none of the hocus-pocus. Live and let live.
But I am offended by your bigotry toward college professors.
BRussell you know I love ya and all but with the college professor thing it is not all of them I speak of just the ones I have had. I took issue with you wanting to define what a Church should do and not do. To me it simply reminded me of professors of days past who honestly thought they knew what was best for the public and they would wear that attitude as a proud badge. I have no problems with college professors just people who can not seem to permit choice in the marketplace.
So if god is so high and mighty and powerful don't you think he would make it explicitly clear how, when, and who to worship? Of course, why an omnipotent god needs worship in the first place is a whole other can of worms.
So if god is so high and mighty and powerful don't you think he would make it explicitly clear how, when, and who to worship? Of course, why an omnipotent god needs worship in the first place is a whole other can of worms.
BR I like that you ask questions trust me that is the one thing I admire about you. You did answer your own question about why an omnipotent god needs worship. It indeed does open a can of worms as you suggested. The reason is indeed one that none of us know with absolute assurance. I suspect and it is nothing more than speculation that God may be filled with joy and love when we worship and praise him just as a mother would be filled with joy and love when her son or daughter gives her a rose on mother's day or when a son cuts the grass for his father one day just as a surprise to "say" I love you.
Even God is a relational being. I believe that is why he created us as relational beings. The one most amazing communication from one relational being to another is love. I believe worship and praise is a form of sending love to God. Such a concept is not unlike when you see people suggest for people to support the troops or one of a number of other examples of sending a message of a loving and supporting nature.
We are not simply robots that have no feelings. I know we have feelings and I would suggest God does as well. God by the way does not force anyone to praise or worship him however. It is something given freely and by choice by those who wish to express their feelings towards God.
BR I like that you ask questions trust me that is the one thing I admire about you. You did answer your own question about why an omnipotent god needs worship. It indeed does open a can of worms as you suggested. The reason is indeed one that none of us know with absolute assurance. I suspect and it is nothing more than speculation that God may be filled with joy and love when we worship and praise him just as a mother would be filled with joy and love when her son or daughter gives her a rose on mother's day or when a son cuts the grass for his father one day just as a surprise to "say" I love you.
Even God is a relational being. I believe that is why he created us as relational beings. The one most amazing communication from one relational being to another is love. I believe worship and praise is a form of sending love to God. Such a concept is not unlike when you see people suggest for people to support the troops or one of a number of other examples of sending a message of a loving and supporting nature.
We are not simply robots that have no feelings. I know we have feelings and I would suggest God does as well. God by the way does not force anyone to praise or worship him however. It is something given freely and by choice by those who wish to express their feelings towards God.
Just my thoughts.
Fellowship
Why do you assume that an omnipotent all powerful being would have human emotions?
Quote:
I believe worship and praise is a form of sending love to God.
So what's with the whole hell deal? Love me or burn for eternity. Great choice.
I've studied the bible. I've also been reading a lot of cosmology in an attempt to understand how the universe(s) work. Authors to research include Stephen Hawking, Michiu Kaku, Brian Green, Timothy Ferris, Penrose, Fenyman, etc.
I'd recommend to anyone here to catch up on the lastest, as well as the oldest, thoughts on the formation of the universe(s). There's a lot of new data that has come out recently. It makes the debate of wearing Banana Republic vs. Generic khakis seem rather silly.
Why do you assume that an omnipotent all powerful being would have human emotions?
So what's with the whole hell deal? Love me or burn for eternity. Great choice.
BR I know one thing and I know this for a fact. God is knocking at your heart. You can run and run but God is dealing with you. You will be so happy God has sought after your heart.
BR I know one thing and I know this for a fact. God is knocking at your heart. You can run and run but God is dealing with you. You will be so happy God has sought after your heart.
Trust me with this.
haha with eternal forgiveness i think it would be pretty hard to not get into heaven
I just don't understand how someone thinks it appropriate to waltz into the supposed home of their deity dressed like they're ready to head out to Joe's pool party.
That may be why you dont understant it, spiritually speaking, a church ia a group of people, that is a church, the building is just a building. God does not LIVE in the building, nor is it Gods home. it is just a building you go to where you gather for worship and/or fellowship. that might be why some people dress more 'comfortably' I know some people that have no problems with jeans/t-shirt(me) and I know others who beleive you MUST where a suit and that woman should never wear pants(thats when I usually tell them, in ancient times, men didnt wear pants either)
The fact that you laugh at the idea that a god might be a she instead of a he says more about you than you're probably willing to admit. My comment said nothing about myself. Not even enough to fit me into your stereotypes.
The fact that you laugh at the idea that a god might be a she instead of a he says more about you than you're probably willing to admit.
I'm not laughing at the idea that God might be a woman, but that you use "she" to refer to God and how perfect it is that you would do that given your recent "you shouldn't care what people wear lecture". It's like reading a self-discovering teenager's diary.
You come out with these wonderful trinkets with all the intellectual originality of a 14-year-old girl arguing with her parents.
Guess what, bunge, Communism would totally be a good idea if humans weren't so inherently greedy!
But maybe you are just 14, so perhaps I should lay off.
I've studied the bible. I've also been reading a lot of cosmology in an attempt to understand how the universe(s) work. Authors to research include Stephen Hawking, Michiu Kaku, Brian Green, Timothy Ferris, Penrose, Fenyman, etc.
I'd recommend to anyone here to catch up on the lastest, as well as the oldest, thoughts on the formation of the universe(s). There's a lot of new data that has come out recently. It makes the debate of wearing Banana Republic vs. Generic khakis seem rather silly.
Penrose (Emperor's New Mind) might argue for wearing nothing
Quantum Theory might argue that there are no clothes or churches
I'm not laughing at the idea that God might be a woman, but that you use "she" to refer to God and how perfect it is that you would do that given your recent "you shouldn't care what people wear lecture". It's like reading a self-discovering teenager's diary.
You come out with these wonderful trinkets with all the intellectual originality of a 14-year-old girl arguing with her parents.
Guess what, bunge, Communism would totally be a good idea if humans weren't so inherently greedy!
But maybe you are just 14, so perhaps I should lay off.
How many of the 14 y old would know e.g. about the history of the main religions enough to "mistake" she instead of he? Look at the religions till 5000 y ago, then 2000 y ago ... Why major religions untill a certain time had all unisex or female gods? Why did they change to male gods? The men got more power in religion etc with that change?
if 1 part of any argument is a 14 y old girl, the other probably is a dad who wants to beat her up.
I probably will prefer bunge's 'teenage' diary to your blogs, groverat.
Comments
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Ahh the dress issue never goes away... Remember we all have choice where we worship. If the people at given Church do not meet your idea of what is needed find a church that fits your ideas. I would say the job interview analogy is one worth mention. Keep in mind at a job interview you are trying to impress "would be" boss. You want the "would be" boss to think you have your stuff together. At Church one must ask are they trying to impress God with how they dress? God already knows we are not perfect. God does not care how we dress. I think there are some out there who still just don't get it with this issue.
Just my two cents. I am not bothered by a well dressed up person or a person in a t-shirt and jeans. It really does not matter at all.
Fellowship
I think it is most telling that the dress code to see a head of state is so strict that you would be refused entrance if you do not meet the requirements. There is a show of respect that protocol demands, and it isn't optional whether it's China, Russia or the U.S.
In the excercise of power, respect and veneration are demanded. You don't show the same respect to a worship service, as you show to a visit to a 7-11, as you do to a visit to a head of state.
The three events simply don't share the same relevance for those involved. The guy behind the counter selling the chili dogs can't have the FBI harass you or send your soul to hell.
There is a curious thought-world that has crept upon Christians unawares that allows them to separate spirit and matter almost to the level of Gnosticism. The change has been so gradual, and it parallelled popular culture so completely, that I believe that no one realized what was happening.
The concept of separating intentions from behavior is not new, it's just odd to see the Christians espousing what is essentially a Greek concept.
BUT
I am amazed on how much I agree with him on this special issue. If anything religion should be a relationship between you and your god. What anyone else think and what signals you sent to others have nothing to with it. When visiting the president you have to show respect with your dress because he can´t see whats on the inside of you and because he live in a definite time and space with cultural codes. Thats not the same with this idea of god.
But lay of all the respect this and that will ya?
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
So ast3r3x and BRussell think you should dress up and not use certain musical instruments during worship. Can I ask why? I am not trying to put you on the spot but to me it is either you are narrow minded or don't like things that are different than you. I mean you both are free to go to where ever you wish to worship God or not at all for that matter. Why this childish petty dis-respect to contemporary churches? Some people really could use learning the phrase "live and let live" and stop their childish attacks.
Jesus does not give a rip about how people dress. Read the Bible sometime and I ask you to show me where Jesus requires people in dresses and suits? Where is that part? Also BRussell says something grand. You submit Church should not talk about a personal relationship with God. To that I have to really wonder about your views of Christianity BRussell.
Seems the college professor type in full force once again.
Fellowship
Ha, hit a nerve, did I Fellowship? Maybe there was some truth in what I said about Protestant American Southern Christian conservatism being associated with this new type of pop church? It's a great thing, really. It's the Lutheranism of the modern day. Translate those Bibles from Latin into English! Give them to the common people!
Go to your church in shorts and listen to rock gospel and have a personal relationship with Jesus. I'll take Bach's Mass in B minor, gothic cathedrals, and none of the hocus-pocus. Live and let live.
But I am offended by your bigotry toward college professors.
Originally posted by BRussell
Ha, hit a nerve, did I Fellowship? Maybe there was some truth in what I said about Protestant American Southern Christian conservatism being associated with this new type of pop church? It's a great thing, really. It's the Lutheranism of the modern day. Translate those Bibles from Latin into English! Give them to the common people!
Go to your church in shorts and listen to rock gospel and have a personal relationship with Jesus. I'll take Bach's Mass in B minor, gothic cathedrals, and none of the hocus-pocus. Live and let live.
But I am offended by your bigotry toward college professors.
BRussell you know I love ya and all but with the college professor thing it is not all of them I speak of just the ones I have had. I took issue with you wanting to define what a Church should do and not do. To me it simply reminded me of professors of days past who honestly thought they knew what was best for the public and they would wear that attitude as a proud badge. I have no problems with college professors just people who can not seem to permit choice in the marketplace.
Live and let live.
Fellowship
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Remember we all have choice where we worship.
Fellowship
So if god is so high and mighty and powerful don't you think he would make it explicitly clear how, when, and who to worship? Of course, why an omnipotent god needs worship in the first place is a whole other can of worms.
Originally posted by BR
So if god is so high and mighty and powerful don't you think he would make it explicitly clear how, when, and who to worship? Of course, why an omnipotent god needs worship in the first place is a whole other can of worms.
BR I like that you ask questions trust me that is the one thing I admire about you. You did answer your own question about why an omnipotent god needs worship. It indeed does open a can of worms as you suggested. The reason is indeed one that none of us know with absolute assurance. I suspect and it is nothing more than speculation that God may be filled with joy and love when we worship and praise him just as a mother would be filled with joy and love when her son or daughter gives her a rose on mother's day or when a son cuts the grass for his father one day just as a surprise to "say" I love you.
Even God is a relational being. I believe that is why he created us as relational beings. The one most amazing communication from one relational being to another is love. I believe worship and praise is a form of sending love to God. Such a concept is not unlike when you see people suggest for people to support the troops or one of a number of other examples of sending a message of a loving and supporting nature.
We are not simply robots that have no feelings. I know we have feelings and I would suggest God does as well. God by the way does not force anyone to praise or worship him however. It is something given freely and by choice by those who wish to express their feelings towards God.
Just my thoughts.
Fellowship
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
BR I like that you ask questions trust me that is the one thing I admire about you. You did answer your own question about why an omnipotent god needs worship. It indeed does open a can of worms as you suggested. The reason is indeed one that none of us know with absolute assurance. I suspect and it is nothing more than speculation that God may be filled with joy and love when we worship and praise him just as a mother would be filled with joy and love when her son or daughter gives her a rose on mother's day or when a son cuts the grass for his father one day just as a surprise to "say" I love you.
Even God is a relational being. I believe that is why he created us as relational beings. The one most amazing communication from one relational being to another is love. I believe worship and praise is a form of sending love to God. Such a concept is not unlike when you see people suggest for people to support the troops or one of a number of other examples of sending a message of a loving and supporting nature.
We are not simply robots that have no feelings. I know we have feelings and I would suggest God does as well. God by the way does not force anyone to praise or worship him however. It is something given freely and by choice by those who wish to express their feelings towards God.
Just my thoughts.
Fellowship
Why do you assume that an omnipotent all powerful being would have human emotions?
I believe worship and praise is a form of sending love to God.
So what's with the whole hell deal? Love me or burn for eternity. Great choice.
I'd recommend to anyone here to catch up on the lastest, as well as the oldest, thoughts on the formation of the universe(s). There's a lot of new data that has come out recently. It makes the debate of wearing Banana Republic vs. Generic khakis seem rather silly.
Originally posted by BR
Why do you assume that an omnipotent all powerful being would have human emotions?
So what's with the whole hell deal? Love me or burn for eternity. Great choice.
BR I know one thing and I know this for a fact. God is knocking at your heart. You can run and run but God is dealing with you. You will be so happy God has sought after your heart.
Trust me with this.
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
BR I know one thing and I know this for a fact. God is knocking at your heart. You can run and run but God is dealing with you. You will be so happy God has sought after your heart.
Trust me with this.
haha with eternal forgiveness i think it would be pretty hard to not get into heaven
Originally posted by BR
So if god is so high and mighty and powerful don't you think he would make it explicitly clear how, when, and who to worship?
She did, and the silence is deafening....
Originally posted by bunge
She did, and the silence is deafening....
She?
If you could fall farther into stereotype I would be shocked.
Originally posted by groverat
.
I just don't understand how someone thinks it appropriate to waltz into the supposed home of their deity dressed like they're ready to head out to Joe's pool party.
That may be why you dont understant it, spiritually speaking, a church ia a group of people, that is a church, the building is just a building. God does not LIVE in the building, nor is it Gods home. it is just a building you go to where you gather for worship and/or fellowship. that might be why some people dress more 'comfortably'
Also, with BR's badly mangled point in tow:
If God already knows what's in our hearts we could go naked....or not at all.
Originally posted by groverat
She? ...
The fact that you laugh at the idea that a god might be a she instead of a he says more about you than you're probably willing to admit. My comment said nothing about myself. Not even enough to fit me into your stereotypes.
You're just not very smart sometimes.
The fact that you laugh at the idea that a god might be a she instead of a he says more about you than you're probably willing to admit.
I'm not laughing at the idea that God might be a woman, but that you use "she" to refer to God and how perfect it is that you would do that given your recent "you shouldn't care what people wear lecture". It's like reading a self-discovering teenager's diary.
You come out with these wonderful trinkets with all the intellectual originality of a 14-year-old girl arguing with her parents.
Guess what, bunge, Communism would totally be a good idea if humans weren't so inherently greedy!
But maybe you are just 14, so perhaps I should lay off.
Originally posted by son of Gib
I've studied the bible. I've also been reading a lot of cosmology in an attempt to understand how the universe(s) work. Authors to research include Stephen Hawking, Michiu Kaku, Brian Green, Timothy Ferris, Penrose, Fenyman, etc.
I'd recommend to anyone here to catch up on the lastest, as well as the oldest, thoughts on the formation of the universe(s). There's a lot of new data that has come out recently. It makes the debate of wearing Banana Republic vs. Generic khakis seem rather silly.
Penrose (Emperor's New Mind) might argue for wearing nothing
Quantum Theory might argue that there are no clothes or churches
Originally posted by groverat
I'm not laughing at the idea that God might be a woman, but that you use "she" to refer to God and how perfect it is that you would do that given your recent "you shouldn't care what people wear lecture". It's like reading a self-discovering teenager's diary.
You come out with these wonderful trinkets with all the intellectual originality of a 14-year-old girl arguing with her parents.
Guess what, bunge, Communism would totally be a good idea if humans weren't so inherently greedy!
But maybe you are just 14, so perhaps I should lay off.
How many of the 14 y old would know e.g. about the history of the main religions enough to "mistake" she instead of he? Look at the religions till 5000 y ago, then 2000 y ago ... Why major religions untill a certain time had all unisex or female gods? Why did they change to male gods? The men got more power in religion etc with that change?
if 1 part of any argument is a 14 y old girl, the other probably is a dad who wants to beat her up.
I probably will prefer bunge's 'teenage' diary to your blogs, groverat.
Originally posted by groverat
Because people notice what others are wearing if it is significantly different by instinct.
I am significantly different by instinct, and it has nothing to with what i wear. So I better avoid Churches in Texas and in the bible belt.