1) Apple needs to do something QUICK! I work in the audio/video/graphics industry and I can tell you that the pros (including me) are getting tired of watching the 'ghz gap' widen and are starting to acitvely look at other options. The only thing that is keeping the faithful in the Apple camp is the vast number of SUPERB apps that Apple has released lately. FCP and DVDSP are both excellent apps and with the recent purchase of Shake and Logic, I see nothing but the same for the future. However, the seeming lack of comittment to the pro line and the focus on the consumer products is getting a bit frustrating. I understand that increasing market share is Apple's #1 goal and that doing that requires focus on consumers, but Apple has always had a stronghold in the professional creative market and with the recent decline in education marketshare, I don't think they can afford to loose it. If they don't do something BIG, they will. Industrial Light and Magic has just recently ditched their RISC/UNIX workstations in favor of P4's for 3D and I know that this is a market that Steve desperately wants in on.
2) Apple will soon. No insider info here but...
You don't find a stealth plane by looking for it. You simply look for the abnormally quiet hole in the sky. Jobs has been unusually quiet as of late. Especially on PowerMacs. Seem strange to anyone else but me? Something is comming. Something BIG!!
I WANT TO BELEIVE!!!!!
SHOW ME THE CHIPS!!!!
G5, POWER4, dont care, just something that will mop the floor with anything else on the market
It depends on how IBM decided to do it. Velocity Engine programmers use a macro language to program the unit instead of banging on bare metal, so there's currently "emulation" in the sense that the instruction codes are translated into the AltiVec ISA. Right now, as I understand it, that translation is trivial. 1 macro becomes 1 instruction.
As long as the translation of the Velocity Engine macro language to the IBM ISA isn't especially difficult or cumbersome (e.g., the vector permute function doesn't map to a long series of bit-twiddling ops in the integer units!) it should work fine.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Macros are literally replaced BEFORE compilation! So porting may be easy it still would require recompilation. Direct executing would need either trapping or pretranslation in software ala FX!32 or hardware like transmeta (or the never released PPC615).
First don't expect anyone here to KNOW for sure and say so... AI is filled with some pretty good people but what it comes down to is either people reading your request knows and can't say or they don't know but will give you a best guess and if that's the case it's just that a guess....
Dave</strong><hr></blockquote>
Of course no one knows but people can suspect and can suspect accurately.
64 bit + Jaguar = No booting into OS 9? Could that be the reason?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Its possible, but I suspect that even MacOS9's nanokernel could just put the CPU into 32-bit mode and leave it there. There might be supervisor mode issues that MacOS9 couldn't deal with in its enablers, but I'd guess not.
<strong>I have but two things to say on all of this....
1) Apple needs to do something QUICK! I work in the audio/video/graphics industry and I can tell you that the pros (including me) are getting tired of watching the 'ghz gap' widen and are starting to acitvely look at other options. The only thing that is keeping the faithful in the Apple camp is the vast number of SUPERB apps that Apple has released lately. FCP and DVDSP are both excellent apps and with the recent purchase of Shake and Logic, I see nothing but the same for the future. However, the seeming lack of comittment to the pro line and the focus on the consumer products is getting a bit frustrating. I understand that increasing market share is Apple's #1 goal and that doing that requires focus on consumers, but Apple has always had a stronghold in the professional creative market and with the recent decline in education marketshare, I don't think they can afford to loose it. If they don't do something BIG, they will. Industrial Light and Magic has just recently ditched their RISC/UNIX workstations in favor of P4's for 3D and I know that this is a market that Steve desperately wants in on.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wrong. ILM switched from SGI to Intel/Linux machines in their render farms. They did not switch from Apple. Their reasons for switching has nothing to do with Apple.
You are late to the party in computation-intensive applications. Clustered UNIX-based CPUs replaced supercomputers in many such applications. Now we are seeing Linux running on cheap Intel machines replace the UNIX machines at each node. It is simple economics. The speed of each Intel/AMD node is "fast enough." Linux software is "good enough." The price of each Intel/AMD node can't be beat by any other competing platform.
<strong>i'm pretty sure the answer to my question is in here somewhere but its too much ot read...
Assuming apple adopts this and IBM produces it what is the earliest this will see the light of day on our desktop? february update to the powermac line? or march? or is that too early?
I would like to know because if this is the g5 then i don't wanna buy the last g4 towers to be released this month</strong><hr></blockquote>
IF this becomes the G5 (and IBM can't dictate that, Apple decides what they call the G5), it won't likely be any time soon. Microelectronics conferences are company / research pissing matches. How useful would it be if 15 October came around and they did a paper saying, "Here's what's in a computer that your company just reverse engineered, except I'll present it in market speak to emphasize our strongest points"? From what's been publicly said, we can't even be positive this isn't a technology demonstration. Remember the 1GHz computer that IBM made with its CMOS 6S a few years ago? They were working on making it go that fast, and ensuring that technology and tools worked to get there. It certainly wasn't ready to go to market.
So, what do we know? 1) 15 October, IBM will show the first truly 64 bit PowerPC since the barely used PowerPC 620. 2) Apple has not publically said they'd use it. 3) IBM hasn't said when it'll be available, but you can bet it won't be the next day.
Personally, I'd bet that, if Apple decides to use the processor, it'll be 6 months to two years out.
IF this becomes the G5 (and IBM can't dictate that, Apple decides what they call the G5), it won't likely be any time soon. Microelectronics conferences are company / research pissing matches. How useful would it be if 15 October came around and they did a paper saying, "Here's what's in a computer that your company just reverse engineered, except I'll present it in market speak to emphasize our strongest points"? From what's been publicly said, we can't even be positive this isn't a technology demonstration. Remember the 1GHz computer that IBM made with its CMOS 6S a few years ago? They were working on making it go that fast, and ensuring that technology and tools worked to get there. It certainly wasn't ready to go to market.
So, what do we know? 1) 15 October, IBM will show the first truly 64 bit PowerPC since the barely used PowerPC 620. 2) Apple has not publically said they'd use it. 3) IBM hasn't said when it'll be available, but you can bet it won't be the next day.
Personally, I'd bet that, if Apple decides to use the processor, it'll be 6 months to two years out.</strong><hr></blockquote>
What about sahara? that was annoucned last year and is shipping in the ibooks
If this chip is supposed to be announced at the microprocessor forum in october would they release the chip in powermacs, before its officially announced? <hr></blockquote>
I doubt IBM will officially announce the chip (i.e. say it is the PPCxxxx and is available) if it is destined for Apple computers - IBM would allow Apple to be the first to introduce it. They will just outline maybe what features they intend to include on it. The G4 was only officially announced along with Apple's PowerMac G4 (or at such a similar time that it made no odds). However the features it was to include had been known for a while.
Of course no one knows but people can suspect and can suspect accurately.</strong><hr></blockquote>
O and A,
Someone (above) just gave you some very good reasons why they though it wasn't gonna be 'right around the corner'... Now it seems you don't like what you hear... So I'm gonna make it easy on you... This CPU will be out VERY VERY SOON hold on to your money till it comes out.
What about sahara? that was annoucned last year and is shipping in the ibooks</strong><hr></blockquote>
Also are you REALLY trying to compare the technology used in SAHARA with this latest CPU?!?! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Call me crazy... but if Apple were to use this chip... don't you think they would politely ask IBM not to anounce it one week prior to new G4 based macs... you think the current Quicksilver sales are bad?... wait till the ddr macs come out on the 13th... will anyone buy knowing the IBM chips are here within 6 months.... no
What are the chances that we'll see this next week..not next year? I mean how many stop-gaps will there be? The ddr-G4 is nice, maybe even twice as fast as current systems... but its nothing new.
Doesn't matter either way for me. I ussually upgrade every two years... another year at least for this dual-800..maybe 10.2 will be good enough till then.
What about sahara? that was annoucned last year and is shipping in the ibooks
Also are you REALLY trying to compare the technology used in SAHARA with this latest CPU?!?! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
<hr></blockquote>
No, Dave, he's simply stating that the last time IBM introduced a processor at this Forum, it was tapped out and in a new product about 6 months later.
<strong>Call me crazy... but if Apple were to use this chip... don't you think they would politely ask IBM not to anounce it one week prior to new G4 based macs... you think the current Quicksilver sales are bad?... wait till the ddr macs come out on the 13th... will anyone buy knowing the IBM chips are here within 6 months.... no
What are the chances that we'll see this next week..not next year? I mean how many stop-gaps will there be? The ddr-G4 is nice, maybe even twice as fast as current systems... but its nothing new.
Doesn't matter either way for me. I ussually upgrade every two years... another year at least for this dual-800..maybe 10.2 will be good enough till then.</strong><hr></blockquote>
While this is party true..I am willing to bet a majority of mac users don't even know about this happening. And for sure a lot of pc users (which is good for "Switch")...and if you need a new mac, you need it now, you don't need a new mac 1 year from now.
<strong>Well, he's just Avie parachuting in for fun on coffee breaks - no harm done.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ha! If I had that much money I wouldn't be here yacking about the next PowerMac.
Mostly I hang out here 'cuz you guys do all the legwork looking for the next little tidbit of info on the 'net, and Moki occasionally graces us with some new little bit of water cooler gossip.
The brief description from IBM about a new 64 bit leaves us with two, almost obvious, conclusions. Yet many reject one or both of these conclusions, which may seem too good to be true. Others may dare to hope that they are true. The first, conclusion is that the new 64 bit PPC processor is designed specifically for Apple, in cooperation with Apple. The second is that a new G5 and a G5 Mac will be announced most likely within 2 months. Anything more is speculation, about how this will happen and what products are involved.
Consider the first conclusion. Does it fit the events of the last couple years, and does it make sense? Since going with Motorola, Apple has had problems and disappointments -- the 500 MHz goof up and then a painfully slow rise in performance, as Intel and AMD took off. Apple went from toasting Pentiums to being toasted. Surely, Steve Jobs is one to take action when there is a sign of trouble. (Consider the clones.) One sign of action was when Apple began to hire microprocessor engineers; we knew something was up. So what would we expected to hear if Apple indeed did begin working with IBM at that time? Nothing, absolutely nothing at all. If a company plans to ditch its main supplier, they keep it as secret as possible. It takes a long time to develop a new processor, and Apple had to stay competitive in the mean time. Even the first hint of a new Apple processor from IBM would not be known until it was ready to release. Add to all this the fact that the processor description is exactly what Apple wants. A 64 bit G5 with a velocity engine and the power to run all those new high-end applications that Apple has been buying up. We pretty much know Apple is after the film industry, and this will let them do it. So far, everything makes sense, but is it the only answer? Well, what are the alternatives?
Maybe IBM designed it for someone else, or IBM has plans to use it in their own new product. Possible, but where is any evidence at all? Maybe IBM is wooing Apple and hopes Apple will design a new Mac to use it. Does anyone seriously think this is how IBM makes its new product decisions? Maybe the processor is for network and communications fields. Then why does IBM state that it is for desktops and entry level servers? It is not even an embedded design.
The second conclusion just makes the most sense if we accept the first. We know for sure that Steve wants to break the news about a G5 first. Anyone disagree with that? So the announcement needs to happen well before October 15th. Since speculation will build after the hint we got from IBM, it will likely be very soon. The forum in October will not be like Motorola talking about future PPC development, which was always going on and no one knew for sure if and when it would happen. Here we have a major switch of players, coupled with a huge leap forward in the PPC family. This is a much bigger deal, and folks will be asking a lot of questions. By the time IBM finishes their presentation, no one will need an announcement to know who the processor is for. Possibly the agenda for the forum was posted too soon. The news stories of IBM wooing Apple may actually be providing good damage control for Apple. It's very possible the G5 is in pilot production now. IBM does not have to wait for the new plant to be on-line. They have been making processors for years without it. The new plant will have benefits for the future, however.
<strong>Call me crazy... but if Apple were to use this chip... don't you think they would politely ask IBM not to anounce it one week prior to new G4 based macs...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not really. The G4 was known before Apple released the PM G4 sawtooth. It was showcased at the Microprocessor Forum as "Next Generation PowerPC microprocessor".
BTW, there hasn't been any official announcement. This is just a teaser.
Comments
1) Apple needs to do something QUICK! I work in the audio/video/graphics industry and I can tell you that the pros (including me) are getting tired of watching the 'ghz gap' widen and are starting to acitvely look at other options. The only thing that is keeping the faithful in the Apple camp is the vast number of SUPERB apps that Apple has released lately. FCP and DVDSP are both excellent apps and with the recent purchase of Shake and Logic, I see nothing but the same for the future. However, the seeming lack of comittment to the pro line and the focus on the consumer products is getting a bit frustrating. I understand that increasing market share is Apple's #1 goal and that doing that requires focus on consumers, but Apple has always had a stronghold in the professional creative market and with the recent decline in education marketshare, I don't think they can afford to loose it. If they don't do something BIG, they will. Industrial Light and Magic has just recently ditched their RISC/UNIX workstations in favor of P4's for 3D and I know that this is a market that Steve desperately wants in on.
2) Apple will soon. No insider info here but...
You don't find a stealth plane by looking for it. You simply look for the abnormally quiet hole in the sky. Jobs has been unusually quiet as of late. Especially on PowerMacs. Seem strange to anyone else but me? Something is comming. Something BIG!!
I WANT TO BELEIVE!!!!!
SHOW ME THE CHIPS!!!!
G5, POWER4, dont care, just something that will mop the floor with anything else on the market
<strong>
It depends on how IBM decided to do it. Velocity Engine programmers use a macro language to program the unit instead of banging on bare metal, so there's currently "emulation" in the sense that the instruction codes are translated into the AltiVec ISA. Right now, as I understand it, that translation is trivial. 1 macro becomes 1 instruction.
As long as the translation of the Velocity Engine macro language to the IBM ISA isn't especially difficult or cumbersome (e.g., the vector permute function doesn't map to a long series of bit-twiddling ops in the integer units!) it should work fine.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Macros are literally replaced BEFORE compilation! So porting may be easy it still would require recompilation. Direct executing would need either trapping or pretranslation in software ala FX!32 or hardware like transmeta (or the never released PPC615).
End of Line
<strong>
First don't expect anyone here to KNOW for sure and say so... AI is filled with some pretty good people but what it comes down to is either people reading your request knows and can't say or they don't know but will give you a best guess and if that's the case it's just that a guess....
Dave</strong><hr></blockquote>
Of course no one knows but people can suspect and can suspect accurately.
<strong>
64 bit + Jaguar = No booting into OS 9? Could that be the reason?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Its possible, but I suspect that even MacOS9's nanokernel could just put the CPU into 32-bit mode and leave it there. There might be supervisor mode issues that MacOS9 couldn't deal with in its enablers, but I'd guess not.
<strong>I have but two things to say on all of this....
1) Apple needs to do something QUICK! I work in the audio/video/graphics industry and I can tell you that the pros (including me) are getting tired of watching the 'ghz gap' widen and are starting to acitvely look at other options. The only thing that is keeping the faithful in the Apple camp is the vast number of SUPERB apps that Apple has released lately. FCP and DVDSP are both excellent apps and with the recent purchase of Shake and Logic, I see nothing but the same for the future. However, the seeming lack of comittment to the pro line and the focus on the consumer products is getting a bit frustrating. I understand that increasing market share is Apple's #1 goal and that doing that requires focus on consumers, but Apple has always had a stronghold in the professional creative market and with the recent decline in education marketshare, I don't think they can afford to loose it. If they don't do something BIG, they will. Industrial Light and Magic has just recently ditched their RISC/UNIX workstations in favor of P4's for 3D and I know that this is a market that Steve desperately wants in on.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wrong. ILM switched from SGI to Intel/Linux machines in their render farms. They did not switch from Apple. Their reasons for switching has nothing to do with Apple.
You are late to the party in computation-intensive applications. Clustered UNIX-based CPUs replaced supercomputers in many such applications. Now we are seeing Linux running on cheap Intel machines replace the UNIX machines at each node. It is simple economics. The speed of each Intel/AMD node is "fast enough." Linux software is "good enough." The price of each Intel/AMD node can't be beat by any other competing platform.
<strong>i'm pretty sure the answer to my question is in here somewhere but its too much ot read...
Assuming apple adopts this and IBM produces it what is the earliest this will see the light of day on our desktop? february update to the powermac line? or march? or is that too early?
I would like to know because if this is the g5 then i don't wanna buy the last g4 towers to be released this month</strong><hr></blockquote>
IF this becomes the G5 (and IBM can't dictate that, Apple decides what they call the G5), it won't likely be any time soon. Microelectronics conferences are company / research pissing matches. How useful would it be if 15 October came around and they did a paper saying, "Here's what's in a computer that your company just reverse engineered, except I'll present it in market speak to emphasize our strongest points"? From what's been publicly said, we can't even be positive this isn't a technology demonstration. Remember the 1GHz computer that IBM made with its CMOS 6S a few years ago? They were working on making it go that fast, and ensuring that technology and tools worked to get there. It certainly wasn't ready to go to market.
So, what do we know? 1) 15 October, IBM will show the first truly 64 bit PowerPC since the barely used PowerPC 620. 2) Apple has not publically said they'd use it. 3) IBM hasn't said when it'll be available, but you can bet it won't be the next day.
Personally, I'd bet that, if Apple decides to use the processor, it'll be 6 months to two years out.
<strong>
IF this becomes the G5 (and IBM can't dictate that, Apple decides what they call the G5), it won't likely be any time soon. Microelectronics conferences are company / research pissing matches. How useful would it be if 15 October came around and they did a paper saying, "Here's what's in a computer that your company just reverse engineered, except I'll present it in market speak to emphasize our strongest points"? From what's been publicly said, we can't even be positive this isn't a technology demonstration. Remember the 1GHz computer that IBM made with its CMOS 6S a few years ago? They were working on making it go that fast, and ensuring that technology and tools worked to get there. It certainly wasn't ready to go to market.
So, what do we know? 1) 15 October, IBM will show the first truly 64 bit PowerPC since the barely used PowerPC 620. 2) Apple has not publically said they'd use it. 3) IBM hasn't said when it'll be available, but you can bet it won't be the next day.
Personally, I'd bet that, if Apple decides to use the processor, it'll be 6 months to two years out.</strong><hr></blockquote>
What about sahara? that was annoucned last year and is shipping in the ibooks
If this chip is supposed to be announced at the microprocessor forum in october would they release the chip in powermacs, before its officially announced? <hr></blockquote>
I doubt IBM will officially announce the chip (i.e. say it is the PPCxxxx and is available) if it is destined for Apple computers - IBM would allow Apple to be the first to introduce it. They will just outline maybe what features they intend to include on it. The G4 was only officially announced along with Apple's PowerMac G4 (or at such a similar time that it made no odds). However the features it was to include had been known for a while.
<strong>
Of course no one knows but people can suspect and can suspect accurately.</strong><hr></blockquote>
O and A,
Someone (above) just gave you some very good reasons why they though it wasn't gonna be 'right around the corner'... Now it seems you don't like what you hear... So I'm gonna make it easy on you... This CPU will be out VERY VERY SOON hold on to your money till it comes out.
Is that better?
D
<strong>
What about sahara? that was annoucned last year and is shipping in the ibooks</strong><hr></blockquote>
Also are you REALLY trying to compare the technology used in SAHARA with this latest CPU?!?! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Programmer seems like a real knowledgable person
<strong>
Programmer seems like a real knowledgable person
Well, he's just Avie parachuting in for fun on coffee breaks - no harm done.
What are the chances that we'll see this next week..not next year? I mean how many stop-gaps will there be? The ddr-G4 is nice, maybe even twice as fast as current systems... but its nothing new.
Doesn't matter either way for me. I ussually upgrade every two years... another year at least for this dual-800..maybe 10.2 will be good enough till then.
quote:
Originally posted by O and A:
What about sahara? that was annoucned last year and is shipping in the ibooks
Also are you REALLY trying to compare the technology used in SAHARA with this latest CPU?!?! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
<hr></blockquote>
No, Dave, he's simply stating that the last time IBM introduced a processor at this Forum, it was tapped out and in a new product about 6 months later.
<strong>Call me crazy... but if Apple were to use this chip... don't you think they would politely ask IBM not to anounce it one week prior to new G4 based macs... you think the current Quicksilver sales are bad?... wait till the ddr macs come out on the 13th... will anyone buy knowing the IBM chips are here within 6 months.... no
What are the chances that we'll see this next week..not next year? I mean how many stop-gaps will there be? The ddr-G4 is nice, maybe even twice as fast as current systems... but its nothing new.
Doesn't matter either way for me. I ussually upgrade every two years... another year at least for this dual-800..maybe 10.2 will be good enough till then.</strong><hr></blockquote>
While this is party true..I am willing to bet a majority of mac users don't even know about this happening. And for sure a lot of pc users (which is good for "Switch")...and if you need a new mac, you need it now, you don't need a new mac 1 year from now.
<strong>Well, he's just Avie parachuting in for fun on coffee breaks - no harm done.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ha! If I had that much money I wouldn't be here yacking about the next PowerMac.
Mostly I hang out here 'cuz you guys do all the legwork looking for the next little tidbit of info on the 'net, and Moki occasionally graces us with some new little bit of water cooler gossip.
Consider the first conclusion. Does it fit the events of the last couple years, and does it make sense? Since going with Motorola, Apple has had problems and disappointments -- the 500 MHz goof up and then a painfully slow rise in performance, as Intel and AMD took off. Apple went from toasting Pentiums to being toasted. Surely, Steve Jobs is one to take action when there is a sign of trouble. (Consider the clones.) One sign of action was when Apple began to hire microprocessor engineers; we knew something was up. So what would we expected to hear if Apple indeed did begin working with IBM at that time? Nothing, absolutely nothing at all. If a company plans to ditch its main supplier, they keep it as secret as possible. It takes a long time to develop a new processor, and Apple had to stay competitive in the mean time. Even the first hint of a new Apple processor from IBM would not be known until it was ready to release. Add to all this the fact that the processor description is exactly what Apple wants. A 64 bit G5 with a velocity engine and the power to run all those new high-end applications that Apple has been buying up. We pretty much know Apple is after the film industry, and this will let them do it. So far, everything makes sense, but is it the only answer? Well, what are the alternatives?
Maybe IBM designed it for someone else, or IBM has plans to use it in their own new product. Possible, but where is any evidence at all? Maybe IBM is wooing Apple and hopes Apple will design a new Mac to use it. Does anyone seriously think this is how IBM makes its new product decisions? Maybe the processor is for network and communications fields. Then why does IBM state that it is for desktops and entry level servers? It is not even an embedded design.
The second conclusion just makes the most sense if we accept the first. We know for sure that Steve wants to break the news about a G5 first. Anyone disagree with that? So the announcement needs to happen well before October 15th. Since speculation will build after the hint we got from IBM, it will likely be very soon. The forum in October will not be like Motorola talking about future PPC development, which was always going on and no one knew for sure if and when it would happen. Here we have a major switch of players, coupled with a huge leap forward in the PPC family. This is a much bigger deal, and folks will be asking a lot of questions. By the time IBM finishes their presentation, no one will need an announcement to know who the processor is for. Possibly the agenda for the forum was posted too soon. The news stories of IBM wooing Apple may actually be providing good damage control for Apple. It's very possible the G5 is in pilot production now. IBM does not have to wait for the new plant to be on-line. They have been making processors for years without it. The new plant will have benefits for the future, however.
[ 08-10-2002: Message edited by: snoopy ]</p>
<strong>Call me crazy... but if Apple were to use this chip... don't you think they would politely ask IBM not to anounce it one week prior to new G4 based macs...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not really. The G4 was known before Apple released the PM G4 sawtooth. It was showcased at the Microprocessor Forum as "Next Generation PowerPC microprocessor".
BTW, there hasn't been any official announcement. This is just a teaser.
[ 08-10-2002: Message edited by: Analogue bubblebath ]</p>