yeah, not sure why I watched it either, I almost threw up all over my computer. WTF!!!!! I realize people die all of the time, but this is my first experience in seeing a real person alive one second, gone the next. What a mind job. I can't get the disgusting images out of my head.
It seems pretty evident to me that there are AQ supporters among us- they are just in the closet about it. You can just read it in the context of their posts- AQ would never do this on their own, right? They must be reacting to something that was done to them first, right? Whoever that must be must be even more evil, of course...hmmm...
The fact of the matter is that these people would do so regardless. That is just what they do. (If you really want to distill this down into basics, it might as well be a case of racial hatred. Take the nearest white American dude off the street and kill him in front of his family- via television. Pick him, not because he has publically sworn to be an enemy of Iraq, but because he is white and a foreigner- a perfect lesson to teach all those other white-skinned sinners on the other side of the planet. This is a mix of racial hate crime with old school style Iraqi dictator coercion.) They happen to be exploiting the incidental timing of other events to create validation for the act. Then you have those of the general populace who can only see this as further confirmation of their own political agendas... They want us to "pull-out", which would subsequentially validate power amongst these very people who cloak themselves in an execution video. It is really difficult to imagine the average Iraqi being in a "better situation" if power is relinquished to the native "mob bosses" that live among them. The Iraqi people must either ride the rough road out with US, or they will be screwed period w/o us. If we were to pull out, yes, it would literally be the most humane outcome to nuke the joint. The "innocents" are pretty much screwed any way from tomorrow at that point. Being put to death would be salvation from living further generations in captivation by the fundamentalists amongst them that literally share the same blood.
This is a quintessential moment where a person's response indicates if they really are "with us or against us".
Also, hat's off to all of those in the media and Internet who thought it was a good idea to parade pictures of the "atrocities" in the Iraqi prison. [/sarcasm] This pretty much gave AQ (or whoever they wish to claim themselves as) full opportunity to make a graphic "counterstatement". W/o the Iraqi prison scandal, they would either have done the same exact thing (but attributed to some other precursor event) or nothing at all (due to the absense of a media opportunity). Either way, they stirred up the pot one more notch with not much to gain for the rest of us. If there are any fingers to be pointed right now, it is to that of "responsible journalism". Does anybody think for a second that Al Jazeera media sees these events "both ways"? At this point, the only difference among "our" Western journalists and Al Jazeera is that ratings drives one of them and fundamentalist politics drives the other. They both will incite/inflame/influence news events for their own gain at the drop of a hat, however.
or we could try and keep this thread from massive derailment and pretty much agree it's this was a terrible thing, and not try to cheapen things with stupid, transparent political agendas.
Agreed 100%. (Although there have been some phenomenally fucking stupid and ignorant things posted in this thread that it is taking a serious effort not to respond to.)
What it comes down to, for me, is that I feel really sorry for that poor guy and for his family and friends. Such a terrible, pointless death.
Randycat, I have to agree with you that these people would do this sort of thing regardless of whether we had done anything wrong or not. The target would just be different. In this case, they feel they're being oppressed by evil white American devils (and they are, to some extent that falls far short of their perception). So they go and do something awful like this. If they thought they were being oppressed by some other group, they'd do the same thing to the other group.
As far as the torture of Iraqi captives by American soldiers... well, that is also completely wrong and shouldn't have been done. Of course it's not nearly as bad as what was done to Nick Berg, but that shouldn't serve as a rationalization for it. Those sorts of things are wrong to do to ANY person, and if we allow ourselves to justify it in this situation, then we're not much better than those we're fighting against. Again, I want to make it clear that the unethical treatment of Iraqi prisoners is obviously not as bad as this grotesque execution, but that cannot serve as justification.
If we had at least humiliated and tortured those responsible for Nick Berg's death, I might be okay with it. The punishment would be fitting. But how do we know that every one of the prisoners we abused was a "terrorist" or "evildoer?" How do we know that they weren't simply soldiers doing their duty to protect their country, misguided as it is?
My point is not that we're just as bad as the terrorists/evildoers/monsters/whatever. I just think that we have to set some moral standards, and realize that we are most definitely capable of breaking them.
Big deal. It's a quick way to die, thank god for that. At least they didn't rape him first.
Most ignorant post in quite some time.
They slice at his throat for upwards of 20 seconds until they finally sever his spinal chord. It's another 10-15 seconds before his head is removed entirely.
If you think 20 seconds of having your throat cut is quick (and possibly a few more seconds of awareness after the spinal chord is severed)... well that speaks for itself. Your position is indefensible.
The video isn't that bad. If you can't stomach it then I don't think you're experienced or mature enough to participate in political discussions here in AO.
The nightly news showed up to the part when they put the knife to his throat. That was enough for me, I think.
It is wholly inappropriate to use this event to defend your position, which ever angle you view it from. A lot if Iraqis have died in this war, some less horrific than this, some probably much worse. Same thing for Americans involved in Iraq. The problem with this death is that we could see it. Even if you didn't click the link there was no avoiding this one. A lot more people will on both sides will die similarly horrible deaths. That's the way it is. Regardless of the what happened in the prison, AQ would've done this. It just gave them a good excuse. Regardless of the actions of AQ or the guilt of those held captive by the U.S., the Iraqi prisoners would've been tortured.
Ack. There is no point to this post. This war is going to get a lot worse.
I personally like facing things that I do not understand. I actually have listened to arguments that maybe the US was arrogant and assuming and possibly bringing some of this on ourselves.
That video has clinched it for me. We are not facing humans, rather monsters.
Thousands upon thousands of them. Some possibly here among us right now, hailing this video as we speak, any malfeasance by a handful of US soldiers, aside.
God help us all.
You seem to think that people who have argued against the war are complicit in this kind of action.
You are wrong.
These people are arseholes aand we shoukld continue to try to put an end to their existence: AQ and Al Zaqawriri(sp?)
However, I recently posted a video of an A,erican hellicopter pilot turning an injured man into a pile of steaming gelletin with a gattling gun . . . . that was just as barbaric . . . barbaric deeds happen in war . . . . it turns all participants into monsters.
The one place that we can return to honorable action would be the treatment of the wounded and prisoners and civilians.
In that regard Americans have shown that they too can be, and have been, monsters.
Now, don't take my comment as some form of argument 'for AQ' as you seemed to do in an earlier post . . . I don't think that there are any idiotic enough on these boards to support them in any way, but realize that we have not been acting as honorably as we would like to imagine America as being either.
I condemn these murderers and I condemn the prison rapists and prison murderers on the Coalition side as well
it all sucks all over the place
--I see no reason to watch it . . . I'm too depressed allready.
There's something about this incident that doesn't compute. We're so knocked about by the wretched, shocking first hand details that the strange background to the case has been ignored, or overlooked:
Quote:
Berg was a prisoner of the U.S. military in Iraq. West Chester contractor missing in Iraq (May. 08, 2004, Associated Press) Nick Berg, 26, owned a business called Prometheus Methods Tower Service Inc. He first went to Iraq on Dec. 21. He stayed until Feb. 1, making contact with a company that indicated there would likely be work for him later. But he returned on March 14 and there was no work, so he began traveling. He usually called home once a day and e-mailed several times; Michael Berg is his business manager, and they needed to stay in touch... When FBI agents arrived at the Berg's West Chester home on March 31, they were relieved to know their son was alive, but in jail. The agents questioned them about various details that only they and their son would know about. Jerri Williams, spokeswoman for the Philadelphia FBI office, said the agency was "asked to interview the parents regarding Mr. Berg's purpose in Iraq." On April 5, the Bergs filed suit in federal court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military in Iraq. The next day, April 6, Nick Berg was released. Nick Berg said he would come home through Jordan, Turkey or Kuwait... The Bergs have hounded the State Department, the FBI and the International Committee of the Red Cross, seeking information. Michael Berg said the State Department sent an official to Nick Berg's hotel, where an employee told the official they had not heard of him.
Berg interrogated by FBI for two weeks (May 7, 2004 5:27 pm US/Eastern) Among those missing in Iraq is a West Chester, Pa. man who went there on his own in March to inspect damaged radio towers... 26-year-old Nick Berg didn't sign a privacy waiver when he went over there. And even though the State Department is using its one person in Iraq to help track him down, they can't tell anyone, including Berg's parents what's going on. Nick last checked in April 9th, saying he was trying to find a safe way home following two weeks of FBI interrogation, after an arrest in Mosul. He was released after his identity and intentions were confirmed.
Why would the FBI interrogate this man for two weeks in Iraq? Then he's released by the US, and the very next day he gets picked up by "al qaeda'. (!?) Lets see the proof that the executioners are who they are alleged to be. Who set up the 'al qaeda' linked website that the video was posted to? What is the URL? Those 5 executioners could be anybody: they are masked and anonymous. Where's the proof that al Zarqawi is the executioner?
Of course we are shocked to the core by the utterly horrific content...who isn't?...but the story raises more questions than answers. So far, none of those questions have been answered to any degree of satisfaction.
I watched that and I'm completely disgusted. I'm glad it was in realvideo rather than a good codec so I couldn't really see what was happening. It was disgusting....
Something I'd like to point out is that people here are automatically assuming that Muslims think this sort of thing is a way to get heaven. It's not. Please stop commenting on the religion that has been tarnished by these people. You don't know what the religion says about this and you're automatically assuming that just because "muslims" are doing it, they are interpreting the religion properly.
People don't always represent religions appropriately. Just like the soldiers who abused those prisoners don't represent US ideals, these disgusting excuses for people don't represent Islamic ideals.
The US army gave morons like these the publicity and the sympathy they wanted as a result of its actions. While killing anyone is bad, you have to realize that it is just one death in a war zone with many dying.
Too bad we didn't get videos of the makeshift graveyard in the football field in Fallujah or the dead civilians due to mortar attacks from both sides.
For the sake of argument, how do you know it was not an execution by the US soldiers to shift focus away from the issue at hand? Is it due to your trust in the system? It is the same system that resorts to third degree torture? The beheaded guy (God bless his soul) was already arrested once by the military and was not in it's 'good books'. Given the speed with which the FBI can track down any website in the world, how do you know that the website is not being run by FBI agents as a snare? Again for the sake of argument, how do you know that this whole torture thing was not a planned leak to shift focus away from the damage done to innocents in the besieged cities? The army didn't have the guts to bomb the mosque, so they fuked up the entire population of the town.
It is a war zone; you can believe what you want. Just because someone doesn't sympathize with your viewpoint (influenced by a blind faith in the system -- universal societies?) doesn't mean that they are supporters of a terrorist organization. If the US doesn't do something to win public confidence in Iraq, you will find these 'terrorists' being labeled as 'freedom fighters' soon enough...
Based on what? Who here supports AQ? You are just as insane as they are.
...Based on expressed views. One should not take "here" as a rigid term, either. Could be here at this website, here on the Internet, here in the US, here etc...
The question isn't so much "who", rather "do they realize which side their stance ultimately gives credence to."
Comments
This just irks me.
Double standards over there.
Originally posted by piwozniak
Naples, stop with that AQ, bullsh*t.
It seems pretty evident to me that there are AQ supporters among us- they are just in the closet about it. You can just read it in the context of their posts- AQ would never do this on their own, right? They must be reacting to something that was done to them first, right? Whoever that must be must be even more evil, of course...hmmm...
The fact of the matter is that these people would do so regardless. That is just what they do. (If you really want to distill this down into basics, it might as well be a case of racial hatred. Take the nearest white American dude off the street and kill him in front of his family- via television. Pick him, not because he has publically sworn to be an enemy of Iraq, but because he is white and a foreigner- a perfect lesson to teach all those other white-skinned sinners on the other side of the planet. This is a mix of racial hate crime with old school style Iraqi dictator coercion.) They happen to be exploiting the incidental timing of other events to create validation for the act. Then you have those of the general populace who can only see this as further confirmation of their own political agendas... They want us to "pull-out", which would subsequentially validate power amongst these very people who cloak themselves in an execution video. It is really difficult to imagine the average Iraqi being in a "better situation" if power is relinquished to the native "mob bosses" that live among them. The Iraqi people must either ride the rough road out with US, or they will be screwed period w/o us. If we were to pull out, yes, it would literally be the most humane outcome to nuke the joint. The "innocents" are pretty much screwed any way from tomorrow at that point. Being put to death would be salvation from living further generations in captivation by the fundamentalists amongst them that literally share the same blood.
This is a quintessential moment where a person's response indicates if they really are "with us or against us".
Also, hat's off to all of those in the media and Internet who thought it was a good idea to parade pictures of the "atrocities" in the Iraqi prison. [/sarcasm] This pretty much gave AQ (or whoever they wish to claim themselves as) full opportunity to make a graphic "counterstatement". W/o the Iraqi prison scandal, they would either have done the same exact thing (but attributed to some other precursor event) or nothing at all (due to the absense of a media opportunity). Either way, they stirred up the pot one more notch with not much to gain for the rest of us. If there are any fingers to be pointed right now, it is to that of "responsible journalism". Does anybody think for a second that Al Jazeera media sees these events "both ways"? At this point, the only difference among "our" Western journalists and Al Jazeera is that ratings drives one of them and fundamentalist politics drives the other. They both will incite/inflame/influence news events for their own gain at the drop of a hat, however.
Originally posted by alcimedes
or we could try and keep this thread from massive derailment and pretty much agree it's this was a terrible thing, and not try to cheapen things with stupid, transparent political agendas.
Agreed 100%. (Although there have been some phenomenally fucking stupid and ignorant things posted in this thread that it is taking a serious effort not to respond to.)
What it comes down to, for me, is that I feel really sorry for that poor guy and for his family and friends. Such a terrible, pointless death.
As far as the torture of Iraqi captives by American soldiers... well, that is also completely wrong and shouldn't have been done. Of course it's not nearly as bad as what was done to Nick Berg, but that shouldn't serve as a rationalization for it. Those sorts of things are wrong to do to ANY person, and if we allow ourselves to justify it in this situation, then we're not much better than those we're fighting against. Again, I want to make it clear that the unethical treatment of Iraqi prisoners is obviously not as bad as this grotesque execution, but that cannot serve as justification.
If we had at least humiliated and tortured those responsible for Nick Berg's death, I might be okay with it. The punishment would be fitting. But how do we know that every one of the prisoners we abused was a "terrorist" or "evildoer?" How do we know that they weren't simply soldiers doing their duty to protect their country, misguided as it is?
My point is not that we're just as bad as the terrorists/evildoers/monsters/whatever. I just think that we have to set some moral standards, and realize that we are most definitely capable of breaking them.
Originally posted by 709
Big deal. It's a quick way to die, thank god for that. At least they didn't rape him first.
Most ignorant post in quite some time.
They slice at his throat for upwards of 20 seconds until they finally sever his spinal chord. It's another 10-15 seconds before his head is removed entirely.
If you think 20 seconds of having your throat cut is quick (and possibly a few more seconds of awareness after the spinal chord is severed)... well that speaks for itself. Your position is indefensible.
It is wholly inappropriate to use this event to defend your position, which ever angle you view it from. A lot if Iraqis have died in this war, some less horrific than this, some probably much worse. Same thing for Americans involved in Iraq. The problem with this death is that we could see it. Even if you didn't click the link there was no avoiding this one. A lot more people will on both sides will die similarly horrible deaths. That's the way it is. Regardless of the what happened in the prison, AQ would've done this. It just gave them a good excuse. Regardless of the actions of AQ or the guilt of those held captive by the U.S., the Iraqi prisoners would've been tortured.
Ack. There is no point to this post. This war is going to get a lot worse.
Originally posted by InactionMan
It is wholly inappropriate to use this event to defend your position, which ever angle you view it from.
My position is hide nothing and let the audience figure it out. Show it at 5, 6, 7, 8, and 10. FSCK anyone that doesn't want to see it.
Put up the damn pictures of torture too, Mr. Dick.
Originally posted by bunge
My position is hide nothing and let the audience figure it out. Show it at 5, 6, 7, 8, and 10. FSCK anyone that doesn't want to see it.
Put up the damn pictures of torture too, Mr. Dick.
Why not 9? Is there something good on at 9 that I'm missing?
Do you want everyone to see this so we know war is bad or THIS war is bad?
Originally posted by jwri004
Maybe if America wasn't in Iraq killing innocents, then maybe people would not be being beheaded.
And maybe if those fucking terrorists would stop beheading innocents, we wouldn't be in Iraq anymore.
It seems pretty evident to me that there are AQ supporters among us
Based on what? Who here supports AQ? You are just as insane as they are.
This is hard to take:
http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/20...deo/index.html
Originally posted by NaplesX
No one should watch it if they do not want to.
I personally like facing things that I do not understand. I actually have listened to arguments that maybe the US was arrogant and assuming and possibly bringing some of this on ourselves.
That video has clinched it for me. We are not facing humans, rather monsters.
Thousands upon thousands of them. Some possibly here among us right now, hailing this video as we speak, any malfeasance by a handful of US soldiers, aside.
God help us all.
You seem to think that people who have argued against the war are complicit in this kind of action.
You are wrong.
These people are arseholes aand we shoukld continue to try to put an end to their existence: AQ and Al Zaqawriri(sp?)
However, I recently posted a video of an A,erican hellicopter pilot turning an injured man into a pile of steaming gelletin with a gattling gun . . . . that was just as barbaric . . . barbaric deeds happen in war . . . . it turns all participants into monsters.
The one place that we can return to honorable action would be the treatment of the wounded and prisoners and civilians.
In that regard Americans have shown that they too can be, and have been, monsters.
Now, don't take my comment as some form of argument 'for AQ' as you seemed to do in an earlier post . . . I don't think that there are any idiotic enough on these boards to support them in any way, but realize that we have not been acting as honorably as we would like to imagine America as being either.
I condemn these murderers and I condemn the prison rapists and prison murderers on the Coalition side as well
it all sucks all over the place
--I see no reason to watch it . . . I'm too depressed allready.
Berg was a prisoner of the U.S. military in Iraq. West Chester contractor missing in Iraq (May. 08, 2004, Associated Press) Nick Berg, 26, owned a business called Prometheus Methods Tower Service Inc. He first went to Iraq on Dec. 21. He stayed until Feb. 1, making contact with a company that indicated there would likely be work for him later. But he returned on March 14 and there was no work, so he began traveling. He usually called home once a day and e-mailed several times; Michael Berg is his business manager, and they needed to stay in touch... When FBI agents arrived at the Berg's West Chester home on March 31, they were relieved to know their son was alive, but in jail. The agents questioned them about various details that only they and their son would know about. Jerri Williams, spokeswoman for the Philadelphia FBI office, said the agency was "asked to interview the parents regarding Mr. Berg's purpose in Iraq." On April 5, the Bergs filed suit in federal court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military in Iraq. The next day, April 6, Nick Berg was released. Nick Berg said he would come home through Jordan, Turkey or Kuwait... The Bergs have hounded the State Department, the FBI and the International Committee of the Red Cross, seeking information. Michael Berg said the State Department sent an official to Nick Berg's hotel, where an employee told the official they had not heard of him.
Berg interrogated by FBI for two weeks (May 7, 2004 5:27 pm US/Eastern) Among those missing in Iraq is a West Chester, Pa. man who went there on his own in March to inspect damaged radio towers... 26-year-old Nick Berg didn't sign a privacy waiver when he went over there. And even though the State Department is using its one person in Iraq to help track him down, they can't tell anyone, including Berg's parents what's going on. Nick last checked in April 9th, saying he was trying to find a safe way home following two weeks of FBI interrogation, after an arrest in Mosul. He was released after his identity and intentions were confirmed.
Why would the FBI interrogate this man for two weeks in Iraq? Then he's released by the US, and the very next day he gets picked up by "al qaeda'. (!?) Lets see the proof that the executioners are who they are alleged to be. Who set up the 'al qaeda' linked website that the video was posted to? What is the URL? Those 5 executioners could be anybody: they are masked and anonymous. Where's the proof that al Zarqawi is the executioner?
Of course we are shocked to the core by the utterly horrific content...who isn't?...but the story raises more questions than answers. So far, none of those questions have been answered to any degree of satisfaction.
Something I'd like to point out is that people here are automatically assuming that Muslims think this sort of thing is a way to get heaven. It's not. Please stop commenting on the religion that has been tarnished by these people. You don't know what the religion says about this and you're automatically assuming that just because "muslims" are doing it, they are interpreting the religion properly.
People don't always represent religions appropriately. Just like the soldiers who abused those prisoners don't represent US ideals, these disgusting excuses for people don't represent Islamic ideals.
It goes both ways. Please remember that.
Too bad we didn't get videos of the makeshift graveyard in the football field in Fallujah or the dead civilians due to mortar attacks from both sides.
For the sake of argument, how do you know it was not an execution by the US soldiers to shift focus away from the issue at hand? Is it due to your trust in the system? It is the same system that resorts to third degree torture?
It is a war zone; you can believe what you want. Just because someone doesn't sympathize with your viewpoint (influenced by a blind faith in the system -- universal societies?) doesn't mean that they are supporters of a terrorist organization. If the US doesn't do something to win public confidence in Iraq, you will find these 'terrorists' being labeled as 'freedom fighters' soon enough...
Originally posted by Rick1138
Based on what? Who here supports AQ? You are just as insane as they are.
...Based on expressed views. One should not take "here" as a rigid term, either. Could be here at this website, here on the Internet, here in the US, here etc...
The question isn't so much "who", rather "do they realize which side their stance ultimately gives credence to."
Originally posted by Randycat99
It seems pretty evident to me that there are AQ supporters among us- they are just in the closet about it.
Don't make me sick.
Fellowship