e ...I don't know why you're sitting their with a nice HDTV Hometheatre system and you're still watching upconverted DVD and macroblock infested HD cable programming. Swallow your pride and go pick up a HD DVD unit man!
My upconverter is the shiznit (it better be for $2500 list), so I don't think that there would be that much difference between upconverted PS2 DVD and the HD-DVD unit. Also, upconverted DVD has fewer user interface headaches (at least if you believe the review posted earlier). My projector seems to work best at 1280x1024, so HD-DVD would have to be downscaled which would probably end up with just about as good a picture as 480i upscaled.
Also, my plasma TV can decode HDCP, but not my front projector - so the HD-DVD unit is out for the big theater, and normal DVDs (played on the xbox360) look good enough on the plasma.
The only problem with that is even if you have a high quality Gennum or Terranex HQV scaler you still aren't doing anything for your colorspace. DVD colorspace is simply inferior to HD and you can really see it in green (the most sensitive color to humans)
I think you're looking at an improvement well worth the 500 ducat investment. But that's my opinion. Maybe you'll be cool with 2nd generation stuff which should be pretty solid.
The only problem with that is even if you have a high quality Gennum or Terranex HQV scaler you still aren't doing anything for your colorspace. DVD colorspace is simply inferior to HD and you can really see it in green (the most sensitive color to humans)
What should I be looking for? The scaler is the DVDO VP30 with the ABT upgrade module. Recent tests of the upgraded DVDO put it equal to the Gennum VXP, and better than the Terranex HQV.
Coincedially, there is a luke warm review of the HD-DVD player on the same page.
Is this what you are talking about?
"Like the previous iScan models, the VP30 [...] offers CUE correction for DVD players that still suffer from the dreaded chroma bug in its many forms (the majority unfortunately). "
Haven't read many complaints about heat or fan noise. The biggest complaints have all been audio dropouts and lockups which have been corrected. The HDMI issues have largely been corrected as well.
How do you have poor overall sales when EVERYONE is sold out? The X1 has a backlit remote if that's what you want. Personally if the 2nd generation unit has a crappy remote I'm probably going to buy a Harmony or something else to run my system anyways.
Interestingly enough Sony is now beginning to display Blu-Ray in their stores and I read a mini review where the Tyson's Corner SonyStyle in Virginia has one on display. Evidently Blu-Ray isn't that fast at booting up either.
e ...I don't know why you're sitting their with a nice HDTV Hometheatre system and you're still watching upconverted DVD and macroblock infested HD cable programming. Swallow your pride and go pick up a HD DVD unit man!
Not to hard to sell out when your only talking 12,000 units! Neither is this a real accurate measure that HD DVD is anywhere near being a success. The real test will be when it has Blu-ray to compete against, and then how many go off the shelf for Toshiba when they'll be surrounded by Blu-ray players from all the consumer electronic companies.
e ...I don't know why you're sitting their with a nice HDTV Hometheatre system and you're still watching upconverted DVD and macroblock infested HD cable programming. Swallow your pride and go pick up a HD DVD unit man!
Because the current titles aren't worth $500 to live with 1st gen issues? Same for BR when it first launches. I might spring for a PS3 just for the games. HD movies is just a side benefit.
Same reason I never bothered with D-Theater. By the time its worth my effort 2nd or even 3rd gen machines will be available late next year.
Hopefully one format or another will die or demand will be so low they decide to merge. Not likely but why reward stupidity?
"Like the previous iScan models, the VP30 [...] offers CUE correction for DVD players that still suffer from the dreaded chroma bug in its many forms (the majority unfortunately). "
Chroma bug is another issue.
The green push comes from upconverting DVD players outputting Rec 601 color and some displays locking into HD color matrix (Rec 709) for HD resolutions. Some displays screw it up in the opposite direction and treat some HD input paths (like say DVI) as Rec 601.
AFAIK, the Toshiba screws this up somehow but since I never intended on buying one I only skimmed those threads. I suspect its screwing up upconversion of SD discs. Either that or its outputting HD as Rec 601 on one of the output paths incorrectly which would be really sad.
With respect to color space the SMPTE C color gamut is slightly smaller than Rec 709 but does not result in the green push (or depression) you might see which are color space conversion issues (using 601 vs 709 or vice versa).
The color primaries for films, if I understand it correctly, encoded into the HD disks as of today should be color corrected to SMPTE C anyways. HD home video (movies)are color corrected on Sony HD BVM monitors which use SMPTE C phosphors.
Output on YCbCr matricies (601 vs 709) is a seperate issue but since Rec 709 is part of both topics the discussions are confusingly mashed together.
Bah...I googled it. The Toshiba evidently outputs HD as 601 on DVI:RGB AND 720p HDMI:YCbCr 444 which means if you have the wrong display you will suffer from the green issue.
1080i HDMI apparently works correctly.
So much for being worth "500 ducats" for better color. Perhaps there will be a firmware fix.
Here is a link to what the problem of misconversion looks like:
Not to hard to sell out when your only talking 12,000 units! Neither is this a real accurate measure that HD DVD is anywhere near being a success. The real test will be when it has Blu-ray to compete against, and then how many go off the shelf for Toshiba when they'll be surrounded by Blu-ray players from all the consumer electronic companies.
Actually Toshiba has shipped more than 50,000 HD players since April 16th just in the USA alone. BB has received at least three allocations so far and my little company has been blessed with 5 allocations.
Who exactly are you expecting to buy the HD-DVD player? I know the 100 million people I expect to buy PS3s, and I know that the PS3 will have to be $500 or less if they want to sell it.
I just wanted to point at this and laugh with Sony's 599 PS3 WITH HDMI and their 499 PS3 W/O HDMI... Screw sony and their own standards. Blu-Ray sucks just like Mini-Disc, Memory Stick, etc. Sure the specs are nice... but a) Price & b) being owned by sony makes it HUGE turn offs for everyone else. I for one will NEVER buy a blu-ray anything. I'll keep watching my dvds if it comes down to it.
Kind of off topic.. but did you see how Sony is planning on not letting the consumer own the ps3 games? That's right.. the consumer owns the media.. but not the license. This in turn makes it so the consumer can NEVER buy used games nor sell their games. This is the kind of crap that Sony does... why would we want them to have us by the balls with blu-ray??? Just for a few more gigs??? Come on.
Kind of off topic.. but did you see how Sony is planning on not letting the consumer own the ps3 games? That's right.. the consumer owns the media.. but not the license. This in turn makes it so the consumer can NEVER buy used games nor sell their games. This is the kind of crap that Sony does... why would we want them to have us by the balls with blu-ray??? Just for a few more gigs??? Come on.
This has never been true. It's more FUD whizzing round the interweb over and over.
I just wanted to point at this and laugh with Sony's 599 PS3 WITH HDMI and their 499 PS3 W/O HDMI...
Why is that a big deal? None of the other game consoles have HDMI, and the majority of TVs don't take HDMI input yet.
It is not an option like a hard drive, where non-conformity across versions of the console require game designers to disregard the option entirely. If you want to use HDMI, then get the more expensive PS3 - but even the $499 PS3 has everything that the 360 does (+ blu-ray drive as an extra).
Why is that a big deal? None of the other game consoles have HDMI, and the majority of TVs don't take HDMI input yet.
It is not an option like a hard drive, where non-conformity across versions of the console require game designers to disregard the option entirely. If you want to use HDMI, then get the more expensive PS3 - but even the $499 PS3 has everything that the 360 does (+ blu-ray drive as an extra).
Hahahahahahaha!! Nice, a post that contains a number some guy pulls out his arse. If they have sold 50,000, you'd think Toshiba would be tooting its horn by now wouldn't you?
Why is that a big deal? None of the other game consoles have HDMI, and the majority of TVs don't take HDMI input yet.
It is not an option like a hard drive, where non-conformity across versions of the console require game designers to disregard the option entirely. If you want to use HDMI, then get the more expensive PS3 - but even the $499 PS3 has everything that the 360 does (+ blu-ray drive as an extra).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but HDMI or DVI is required for Blu-Ray. Which in turn means the bottom ps3 wont' be able to play blu-ray. Isn't the HDML / DVI required for decoding. This encoding which prevents the movie being ripped because it has to go directly to your set. This was the latest DRM from what I was told / read. Is this not a requirement any more? Sooo without HDMI or DVI... it makes the 500 dollar model worthless for movies... which WILL be the most purchased one.
No offense blackcat... but I don't trust that website you sent. It looks like a site that could have been built in 3 hours. So I did some more research.
Quote:
"this is false speculation and that PlayStation 3 software will not be copy protected to a single machine but will be playable on any PlayStation 3 console."
The rumor i read, was the user owns the media, it plays fine, but the user doesn't own the license and therefor didn't have the "RIGHTS" to re-sell it.
Either way... The point of that whole thing is that Sony likes to play hardball with their media. Look at memory stick prices for crying out loud?! They are extremely expensive compared to the other things like SD and CF. Again... do we really want sony controlling prices / performance of our next media? They have a rocky track record with other media at best.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but HDMI or DVI is required for Blu-Ray. Which in turn means the bottom ps3 wont' be able to play blu-ray. Isn't the HDML / DVI required for decoding. This encoding which prevents the movie being ripped because it has to go directly to your set. This was the latest DRM from what I was told / read. Is this not a requirement any more? Sooo without HDMI or DVI... it makes the 500 dollar model worthless for movies... which WILL be the most purchased one.
If studios use the content protection flag then blu-ray and HD-DVD is downscaled to 480p when not played via HDMI, but they have agreed not to until 2010.
So both will play current movies and we can hope the flag never gets used. Games should play in HD regardless.
Comments
Originally posted by hmurchison
e ...I don't know why you're sitting their with a nice HDTV Hometheatre system and you're still watching upconverted DVD and macroblock infested HD cable programming. Swallow your pride and go pick up a HD DVD unit man!
My upconverter is the shiznit (it better be for $2500 list), so I don't think that there would be that much difference between upconverted PS2 DVD and the HD-DVD unit. Also, upconverted DVD has fewer user interface headaches (at least if you believe the review posted earlier). My projector seems to work best at 1280x1024, so HD-DVD would have to be downscaled which would probably end up with just about as good a picture as 480i upscaled.
Also, my plasma TV can decode HDCP, but not my front projector - so the HD-DVD unit is out for the big theater, and normal DVDs (played on the xbox360) look good enough on the plasma.
I think you're looking at an improvement well worth the 500 ducat investment. But that's my opinion. Maybe you'll be cool with 2nd generation stuff which should be pretty solid.
Originally posted by hmurchison
The only problem with that is even if you have a high quality Gennum or Terranex HQV scaler you still aren't doing anything for your colorspace. DVD colorspace is simply inferior to HD and you can really see it in green (the most sensitive color to humans)
What should I be looking for? The scaler is the DVDO VP30 with the ABT upgrade module. Recent tests of the upgraded DVDO put it equal to the Gennum VXP, and better than the Terranex HQV.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/main.html (click on DVDO VP30 link)
Coincedially, there is a luke warm review of the HD-DVD player on the same page.
Is this what you are talking about?
"Like the previous iScan models, the VP30 [...] offers CUE correction for DVD players that still suffer from the dreaded chroma bug in its many forms (the majority unfortunately). "
Originally posted by hmurchison
Haven't read many complaints about heat or fan noise. The biggest complaints have all been audio dropouts and lockups which have been corrected. The HDMI issues have largely been corrected as well.
How do you have poor overall sales when EVERYONE is sold out? The X1 has a backlit remote if that's what you want. Personally if the 2nd generation unit has a crappy remote I'm probably going to buy a Harmony or something else to run my system anyways.
Interestingly enough Sony is now beginning to display Blu-Ray in their stores and I read a mini review where the Tyson's Corner SonyStyle in Virginia has one on display. Evidently Blu-Ray isn't that fast at booting up either.
e ...I don't know why you're sitting their with a nice HDTV Hometheatre system and you're still watching upconverted DVD and macroblock infested HD cable programming. Swallow your pride and go pick up a HD DVD unit man!
Not to hard to sell out when your only talking 12,000 units! Neither is this a real accurate measure that HD DVD is anywhere near being a success. The real test will be when it has Blu-ray to compete against, and then how many go off the shelf for Toshiba when they'll be surrounded by Blu-ray players from all the consumer electronic companies.
Originally posted by hmurchison
e ...I don't know why you're sitting their with a nice HDTV Hometheatre system and you're still watching upconverted DVD and macroblock infested HD cable programming. Swallow your pride and go pick up a HD DVD unit man!
Because the current titles aren't worth $500 to live with 1st gen issues? Same for BR when it first launches. I might spring for a PS3 just for the games. HD movies is just a side benefit.
Same reason I never bothered with D-Theater. By the time its worth my effort 2nd or even 3rd gen machines will be available late next year.
Hopefully one format or another will die or demand will be so low they decide to merge. Not likely but why reward stupidity?
Vinea
Originally posted by e1618978
What should I be looking for?
...
Is this what you are talking about?
"Like the previous iScan models, the VP30 [...] offers CUE correction for DVD players that still suffer from the dreaded chroma bug in its many forms (the majority unfortunately). "
Chroma bug is another issue.
The green push comes from upconverting DVD players outputting Rec 601 color and some displays locking into HD color matrix (Rec 709) for HD resolutions. Some displays screw it up in the opposite direction and treat some HD input paths (like say DVI) as Rec 601.
AFAIK, the Toshiba screws this up somehow but since I never intended on buying one I only skimmed those threads. I suspect its screwing up upconversion of SD discs. Either that or its outputting HD as Rec 601 on one of the output paths incorrectly which would be really sad.
With respect to color space the SMPTE C color gamut is slightly smaller than Rec 709 but does not result in the green push (or depression) you might see which are color space conversion issues (using 601 vs 709 or vice versa).
The color primaries for films, if I understand it correctly, encoded into the HD disks as of today should be color corrected to SMPTE C anyways. HD home video (movies)are color corrected on Sony HD BVM monitors which use SMPTE C phosphors.
Output on YCbCr matricies (601 vs 709) is a seperate issue but since Rec 709 is part of both topics the discussions are confusingly mashed together.
Vinea
1080i HDMI apparently works correctly.
So much for being worth "500 ducats" for better color. Perhaps there will be a firmware fix.
Here is a link to what the problem of misconversion looks like:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...chmentid=32137
Vinea
Originally posted by marzetta7
Not to hard to sell out when your only talking 12,000 units! Neither is this a real accurate measure that HD DVD is anywhere near being a success. The real test will be when it has Blu-ray to compete against, and then how many go off the shelf for Toshiba when they'll be surrounded by Blu-ray players from all the consumer electronic companies.
Wrong again.
As many as 300k HD-DVD will be delivered this year
Actually Toshiba has shipped more than 50,000 HD players since April 16th just in the USA alone. BB has received at least three allocations so far and my little company has been blessed with 5 allocations.
Originally posted by e1618978
Who exactly are you expecting to buy the HD-DVD player? I know the 100 million people I expect to buy PS3s, and I know that the PS3 will have to be $500 or less if they want to sell it.
I just wanted to point at this and laugh with Sony's 599 PS3 WITH HDMI and their 499 PS3 W/O HDMI... Screw sony and their own standards. Blu-Ray sucks just like Mini-Disc, Memory Stick, etc. Sure the specs are nice... but a) Price & b) being owned by sony makes it HUGE turn offs for everyone else. I for one will NEVER buy a blu-ray anything. I'll keep watching my dvds if it comes down to it.
Originally posted by emig647
Kind of off topic.. but did you see how Sony is planning on not letting the consumer own the ps3 games? That's right.. the consumer owns the media.. but not the license. This in turn makes it so the consumer can NEVER buy used games nor sell their games. This is the kind of crap that Sony does... why would we want them to have us by the balls with blu-ray??? Just for a few more gigs??? Come on.
This has never been true. It's more FUD whizzing round the interweb over and over.
Look here
Originally posted by emig647
I just wanted to point at this and laugh with Sony's 599 PS3 WITH HDMI and their 499 PS3 W/O HDMI...
Why is that a big deal? None of the other game consoles have HDMI, and the majority of TVs don't take HDMI input yet.
It is not an option like a hard drive, where non-conformity across versions of the console require game designers to disregard the option entirely. If you want to use HDMI, then get the more expensive PS3 - but even the $499 PS3 has everything that the 360 does (+ blu-ray drive as an extra).
Originally posted by e1618978
Why is that a big deal? None of the other game consoles have HDMI, and the majority of TVs don't take HDMI input yet.
It is not an option like a hard drive, where non-conformity across versions of the console require game designers to disregard the option entirely. If you want to use HDMI, then get the more expensive PS3 - but even the $499 PS3 has everything that the 360 does (+ blu-ray drive as an extra).
+ a hard drive that the low end 360 does not.
Exactly.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Wrong again.
As many as 300k HD-DVD will be delivered this year
Hahahahahahaha!! Nice, a post that contains a number some guy pulls out his arse. If they have sold 50,000, you'd think Toshiba would be tooting its horn by now wouldn't you?
Pure crap. Moving on.
Originally posted by e1618978
Why is that a big deal? None of the other game consoles have HDMI, and the majority of TVs don't take HDMI input yet.
It is not an option like a hard drive, where non-conformity across versions of the console require game designers to disregard the option entirely. If you want to use HDMI, then get the more expensive PS3 - but even the $499 PS3 has everything that the 360 does (+ blu-ray drive as an extra).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but HDMI or DVI is required for Blu-Ray. Which in turn means the bottom ps3 wont' be able to play blu-ray. Isn't the HDML / DVI required for decoding. This encoding which prevents the movie being ripped because it has to go directly to your set. This was the latest DRM from what I was told / read. Is this not a requirement any more? Sooo without HDMI or DVI... it makes the 500 dollar model worthless for movies... which WILL be the most purchased one.
Originally posted by Blackcat
This has never been true. It's more FUD whizzing round the interweb over and over.
Look here
No offense blackcat... but I don't trust that website you sent. It looks like a site that could have been built in 3 hours. So I did some more research.
"this is false speculation and that PlayStation 3 software will not be copy protected to a single machine but will be playable on any PlayStation 3 console."
The rumor i read, was the user owns the media, it plays fine, but the user doesn't own the license and therefor didn't have the "RIGHTS" to re-sell it.
Either way... The point of that whole thing is that Sony likes to play hardball with their media. Look at memory stick prices for crying out loud?! They are extremely expensive compared to the other things like SD and CF. Again... do we really want sony controlling prices / performance of our next media? They have a rocky track record with other media at best.
Originally posted by emig647
No offense blackcat... but I don't trust that website you sent. It looks like a site that could have been built in 3 hours.
Kotaku is a well established gaming blog, who have little nice to say about Sony/PS3.
Do you have a trustworthy source?
Originally posted by emig647
Correct me if I'm wrong, but HDMI or DVI is required for Blu-Ray. Which in turn means the bottom ps3 wont' be able to play blu-ray. Isn't the HDML / DVI required for decoding. This encoding which prevents the movie being ripped because it has to go directly to your set. This was the latest DRM from what I was told / read. Is this not a requirement any more? Sooo without HDMI or DVI... it makes the 500 dollar model worthless for movies... which WILL be the most purchased one.
If studios use the content protection flag then blu-ray and HD-DVD is downscaled to 480p when not played via HDMI, but they have agreed not to until 2010.
So both will play current movies and we can hope the flag never gets used. Games should play in HD regardless.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Wrong again.
As many as 300k HD-DVD will be delivered this year
Your source is a post on AVS Forum who got it from a "reliable source"?
Vinea