Are you really suggesting that anything goes on a sports field as long as the paying punter is entertained?
No, but I think too many people are taking this way too far. As a manipulator of the football, it's fine to hold Zidane to a high standard, but there's no reason for me to believe that he's an upstanding human being in any other respect. Rather, he's a 34 year old man with a poor education.
He was punished with the red, and then later by the press. But was his action "inexecusable?" Absolutely not. I can think of a lot of ways to excuse Zidane, most of which have something to do with the fact that society wouldn't be much worse-off without football. In other words -- it's just a game.
I'm really struggling to understand you, to be honest.
Quote:
But was his action "inexecusable?" Absolutely not. I can think of a lot of ways to excuse Zidane, most of which have something to do with the fact that society wouldn't be much worse-off without football. In other words -- it's just a game.
So because football is a game, person A is at liberty to headbutt person B, on the grounds that if football didn't exist society as a whole wouldn't be much worse off?
Quote:
but there's no reason for me to believe that he's an upstanding human being in any other respect.
I agree. What I do expect of a professional athlete who's been at the top of the tree for a decade or more is to behave professionally. Surely that isn't too much?
I'd be with you if you couched your response along the lines of "in the grand scheme of things, such as the war in Iraq and the on-going Palestine question one man headbutting another doesn't deserve the acres of newsprint it is gathering". Well, yes, obviously. Still doesn't make his behavior justifiable.
However, I don't think that's what you were getting at, was it?
I'm really struggling to understand you, to be honest.
So because football is a game, person A is at liberty to headbutt person B, on the grounds that if football didn't exist society as a whole wouldn't be much worse off?
I agree. What I do expect of a professional athlete who's been at the top of the tree for a decade or more is to behave professionally. Surely that isn't too much?
I'd be with you if you couched your response along the lines of "in the grand scheme of things, such as the war in Iraq and the on-going Palestine question one man headbutting another doesn't deserve the acres of newsprint it is gathering". Well, yes, obviously. Still doesn't make his behavior justifiable.
However, I don't think that's what you were getting at, was it?
Cheers,
David
A headbutt has no excuse. That's why he deserved the red paper. No the word inexcusable is overkill. If I kill your child : I am inexcusable.
He lost control under repeated insults coming from the Italian footballer. There isn't any law against insulting other players while playing football. But that's not a reason to say it's OK.
Headbutts are a very bad example for the youth. But insulting others players in order to make them angry and comit mistakes is also a very bad example.
He lost control under repeated insults coming from the Italian footballer. There isn't any law against insulting other players while playing football. But that's not a reason to say it's OK.
Headbutts are a very bad example for the youth. But insulting others players in order to make them angry and comit mistakes is also a very bad example.
He lost control under repeated insults coming from the Italian footballer.
Ah, poor man................someone says a few things to you and all self control disappears..........
Anyway, quoting from the BBC website:
QUOTE
Materazzi defended himself on Tuesday in the Italian newspaper La Gazetta dello Sport, when he said: "It was the kind of insult you will hear dozens of times and just slips out of the ground."
"I did not bring up Zidane's mother; for me a mother is sacred."
Materazzi and Zidane became involved in a verbal spat with 10 minutes to go in extra-time with France and Italy drawing 1-1 in the World Cup final.
After Materazzi's insult Zidane shoved his head into the Italian's chest and was sent off, with Italy going on to win the match 5-3 on penalties.
"I held his shirt, for only a few seconds," said Materazzi, who had scored Italy's equaliser after Zidane put France ahead from the penalty spot.
"He turned towards me and scoffed at me, looking at me with super arrogance, up and down.
"He said 'if you really want my shirt, you can have it later.'
"It's true, I shot back with an insult."
BBC Radio Five Live asked for help from a deaf lip reader, Jessica Rees, who read the words phonetically to an Italian translator.
She deciphered the insult as being "you're the son of a terrorist whore" - a translation also carried by many national newspapers in Britain on Tuesday.
The BBC's Ten O'Clock News also called in experts to study the television footage of the incident and determined the following:
Materazzi's first word to Zidane was "no" before he then told him to "calm down".
He then accused him of being a "liar" and wished "an ugly death to you and your family" on the day the Frenchman's mother had been taken to hospital ill. This was followed by "Go f*** yourself".
END QUOTE
Anyway, it's well known Italian players spend the whole game lying and cheating, so we can discount his version, can't we?
I'm really struggling to understand you, to be honest.
Your rhetoric bores me. If you want to press this issue further, feel free. I made a clear point and see no need to elaborate.
As for being a bad example to youth, to me it's just such an inconsequential matter that I simply can't see how the negatives of it outweigh the entertaining positives.
Sorry about that. Not intentional. My bad since I didn't understand your clear point. I read and reread your comments, and I think I've got it now.
Which is that you'll excuse the headbutt as the game was drifting to penalties, and as a France fan you've now got something to talk about for a week. Got it, I think.
Ah, poor man................someone says a few things to you and all self control disappears..........
Anyway, quoting from the BBC website:
QUOTE
Materazzi defended himself on Tuesday in the Italian newspaper La Gazetta dello Sport, when he said: "It was the kind of insult you will hear dozens of times and just slips out of the ground."
"I did not bring up Zidane's mother; for me a mother is sacred."
Materazzi and Zidane became involved in a verbal spat with 10 minutes to go in extra-time with France and Italy drawing 1-1 in the World Cup final.
After Materazzi's insult Zidane shoved his head into the Italian's chest and was sent off, with Italy going on to win the match 5-3 on penalties.
"I held his shirt, for only a few seconds," said Materazzi, who had scored Italy's equaliser after Zidane put France ahead from the penalty spot.
"He turned towards me and scoffed at me, looking at me with super arrogance, up and down.
"He said 'if you really want my shirt, you can have it later.'
"It's true, I shot back with an insult."
BBC Radio Five Live asked for help from a deaf lip reader, Jessica Rees, who read the words phonetically to an Italian translator.
She deciphered the insult as being "you're the son of a terrorist whore" - a translation also carried by many national newspapers in Britain on Tuesday.
The BBC's Ten O'Clock News also called in experts to study the television footage of the incident and determined the following:
Materazzi's first word to Zidane was "no" before he then told him to "calm down".
He then accused him of being a "liar" and wished "an ugly death to you and your family" on the day the Frenchman's mother had been taken to hospital ill. This was followed by "Go f*** yourself".
END QUOTE
Anyway, it's well known Italian players spend the whole game lying and cheating, so we can discount his version, can't we?
My experience of moderator here, told me that people will lost control for less ...
Buffon appear to me like a nice guy, but I would not be pleased to have a diner with materrazi ...
For the version, there will be an official investigation by the FIFA.
Now I am suprised that someone from UK, the country of gentlemen where football and most sports are born, find normal to insult the opponements in a major championship.
Zidane was to blame for his headbutt, and was blamed. He loose a lot of credit for doing this. But what about Materazzi ?
You mean there is still a chance for the US to get the cup. In almost all contest where you individuals marking each other closely each player is looking for an edge. Sometimes it is just to distract for a second so they can make a move. Other times it is to distract them from the game. If they are thinking about what you said then their mind is not on the game. If you think what he said was bad, you have not heard what goes on in basketball or football (US football).
The worst things are said in the stands. We went to a Eagles / Redskins game in Philly last year and some of the fans were ridicules in what they said and how they acted. I guess that is why they were suppose to put a court in the lower part of the stadium. I will say that the ushers did respond quickly and escorted several out.
Now I am suprised that someone from UK, the country of gentlemen where football and most sports are born, find normal to insult the opponements in a major championship.
Another example of someone reading what they want to read! Nowhere did I say it was normal or acceptable. Don't think I implied it, either. FWIW, as reg says, it is normal (usual), in almost all close contact sport for verbals to be given.
All I've said is Zidane is a moron for reacting as he did to a verbal insult, and thus deprive his team of their best player for the last few minutes of the World Cup final.
David
PS in a famous exchange during a cricket match, a bowler asked a batsman "how come you're so fat?". The batsman replied "because whenever I f@*k your wife she gives me a biscuit". Far better than whacking him one, don't you think?
Another example of someone reading what they want to read! Nowhere did I say it was normal or acceptable. Don't think I implied it, either. FWIW, as reg says, it is normal (usual), in almost all close contact sport for verbals to be given.
No you just say nothing about this. Silence look like approval. And I disagree that it's normal in close compact sports to exchange insults, usual perhaprs, but normal : never.
It's being reported here (UK) that Zidane will make a TV appearance at 8pm CET, and will say what was said.
I think we'll never really know, unless both Zidane and Materazzi make exactly the same claim (which, frankly, isn't likely). I suspect that in the noise of the ground, the only 2 people who heard exactly what was said were the two guys, and no-one else.
For those interested, Martin Samuel of The Times has an excellent article on the subject.
The worst things are said in the stands. We went to a Eagles / Redskins game in Philly last year and some of the fans were ridicules in what they said and how they acted. I guess that is why they were suppose to put a court in the lower part of the stadium. I will say that the ushers did respond quickly and escorted several out.
Comments
Originally posted by iMac David
Splinemodel,
Are you really suggesting that anything goes on a sports field as long as the paying punter is entertained?
No, but I think too many people are taking this way too far. As a manipulator of the football, it's fine to hold Zidane to a high standard, but there's no reason for me to believe that he's an upstanding human being in any other respect. Rather, he's a 34 year old man with a poor education.
He was punished with the red, and then later by the press. But was his action "inexecusable?" Absolutely not. I can think of a lot of ways to excuse Zidane, most of which have something to do with the fact that society wouldn't be much worse-off without football. In other words -- it's just a game.
But was his action "inexecusable?" Absolutely not. I can think of a lot of ways to excuse Zidane, most of which have something to do with the fact that society wouldn't be much worse-off without football. In other words -- it's just a game.
So because football is a game, person A is at liberty to headbutt person B, on the grounds that if football didn't exist society as a whole wouldn't be much worse off?
but there's no reason for me to believe that he's an upstanding human being in any other respect.
I agree. What I do expect of a professional athlete who's been at the top of the tree for a decade or more is to behave professionally. Surely that isn't too much?
I'd be with you if you couched your response along the lines of "in the grand scheme of things, such as the war in Iraq and the on-going Palestine question one man headbutting another doesn't deserve the acres of newsprint it is gathering". Well, yes, obviously. Still doesn't make his behavior justifiable.
However, I don't think that's what you were getting at, was it?
Cheers,
David
Originally posted by iMac David
I'm really struggling to understand you, to be honest.
So because football is a game, person A is at liberty to headbutt person B, on the grounds that if football didn't exist society as a whole wouldn't be much worse off?
I agree. What I do expect of a professional athlete who's been at the top of the tree for a decade or more is to behave professionally. Surely that isn't too much?
I'd be with you if you couched your response along the lines of "in the grand scheme of things, such as the war in Iraq and the on-going Palestine question one man headbutting another doesn't deserve the acres of newsprint it is gathering". Well, yes, obviously. Still doesn't make his behavior justifiable.
However, I don't think that's what you were getting at, was it?
Cheers,
David
A headbutt has no excuse. That's why he deserved the red paper. No the word inexcusable is overkill. If I kill your child : I am inexcusable.
He lost control under repeated insults coming from the Italian footballer. There isn't any law against insulting other players while playing football. But that's not a reason to say it's OK.
Headbutts are a very bad example for the youth. But insulting others players in order to make them angry and comit mistakes is also a very bad example.
Originally posted by Powerdoc
...
He lost control under repeated insults coming from the Italian footballer. There isn't any law against insulting other players while playing football. But that's not a reason to say it's OK.
Headbutts are a very bad example for the youth. But insulting others players in order to make them angry and comit mistakes is also a very bad example.
Absolutely, absolutely. My words.
He lost control under repeated insults coming from the Italian footballer.
Ah, poor man................someone says a few things to you and all self control disappears..........
Anyway, quoting from the BBC website:
QUOTE
Materazzi defended himself on Tuesday in the Italian newspaper La Gazetta dello Sport, when he said: "It was the kind of insult you will hear dozens of times and just slips out of the ground."
"I did not bring up Zidane's mother; for me a mother is sacred."
Materazzi and Zidane became involved in a verbal spat with 10 minutes to go in extra-time with France and Italy drawing 1-1 in the World Cup final.
After Materazzi's insult Zidane shoved his head into the Italian's chest and was sent off, with Italy going on to win the match 5-3 on penalties.
"I held his shirt, for only a few seconds," said Materazzi, who had scored Italy's equaliser after Zidane put France ahead from the penalty spot.
"He turned towards me and scoffed at me, looking at me with super arrogance, up and down.
"He said 'if you really want my shirt, you can have it later.'
"It's true, I shot back with an insult."
BBC Radio Five Live asked for help from a deaf lip reader, Jessica Rees, who read the words phonetically to an Italian translator.
She deciphered the insult as being "you're the son of a terrorist whore" - a translation also carried by many national newspapers in Britain on Tuesday.
The BBC's Ten O'Clock News also called in experts to study the television footage of the incident and determined the following:
Materazzi's first word to Zidane was "no" before he then told him to "calm down".
He then accused him of being a "liar" and wished "an ugly death to you and your family" on the day the Frenchman's mother had been taken to hospital ill. This was followed by "Go f*** yourself".
END QUOTE
Anyway, it's well known Italian players spend the whole game lying and cheating, so we can discount his version, can't we?
Cheers,
David
link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...06/5169342.stm
Originally posted by iMac David
I'm really struggling to understand you, to be honest.
Your rhetoric bores me. If you want to press this issue further, feel free. I made a clear point and see no need to elaborate.
As for being a bad example to youth, to me it's just such an inconsequential matter that I simply can't see how the negatives of it outweigh the entertaining positives.
Your rhetoric bores me.
Sorry about that. Not intentional. My bad since I didn't understand your clear point. I read and reread your comments, and I think I've got it now.
Which is that you'll excuse the headbutt as the game was drifting to penalties, and as a France fan you've now got something to talk about for a week. Got it, I think.
David
Originally posted by iMac David
Ah, poor man................someone says a few things to you and all self control disappears..........
Anyway, quoting from the BBC website:
QUOTE
Materazzi defended himself on Tuesday in the Italian newspaper La Gazetta dello Sport, when he said: "It was the kind of insult you will hear dozens of times and just slips out of the ground."
"I did not bring up Zidane's mother; for me a mother is sacred."
Materazzi and Zidane became involved in a verbal spat with 10 minutes to go in extra-time with France and Italy drawing 1-1 in the World Cup final.
After Materazzi's insult Zidane shoved his head into the Italian's chest and was sent off, with Italy going on to win the match 5-3 on penalties.
"I held his shirt, for only a few seconds," said Materazzi, who had scored Italy's equaliser after Zidane put France ahead from the penalty spot.
"He turned towards me and scoffed at me, looking at me with super arrogance, up and down.
"He said 'if you really want my shirt, you can have it later.'
"It's true, I shot back with an insult."
BBC Radio Five Live asked for help from a deaf lip reader, Jessica Rees, who read the words phonetically to an Italian translator.
She deciphered the insult as being "you're the son of a terrorist whore" - a translation also carried by many national newspapers in Britain on Tuesday.
The BBC's Ten O'Clock News also called in experts to study the television footage of the incident and determined the following:
Materazzi's first word to Zidane was "no" before he then told him to "calm down".
He then accused him of being a "liar" and wished "an ugly death to you and your family" on the day the Frenchman's mother had been taken to hospital ill. This was followed by "Go f*** yourself".
END QUOTE
Anyway, it's well known Italian players spend the whole game lying and cheating, so we can discount his version, can't we?
Cheers,
David
link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...06/5169342.stm
My experience of moderator here, told me that people will lost control for less ...
Buffon appear to me like a nice guy, but I would not be pleased to have a diner with materrazi ...
For the version, there will be an official investigation by the FIFA.
Now I am suprised that someone from UK, the country of gentlemen where football and most sports are born, find normal to insult the opponements in a major championship.
Zidane was to blame for his headbutt, and was blamed. He loose a lot of credit for doing this. But what about Materazzi ?
Originally posted by iMac David
I'm really struggling to understand you, to be honest.
Gee, that's surprising. Not. Leave me out of your silly posts. Thank you.
Originally posted by Powerdoc
...
Zidane was to blame for his headbutt, and was blamed. He loose a lot of credit for doing this. But what about Materazzi ?
I just read in the news a very interesting note: The FIFA
could deprive Italy of the World Cup, IF they can get
evidence, what Materrazii really used for his insult.
Article 55 in FIFA code clearly says:
If players, officials (and ...) do behave in a very discriminating
and/or inhuman manner, (...) the squad they belong to can be
(...) disqualified.
To put it in other words, Italy didn't go through yet.
this thread isn't finished yet too.
reg
Originally posted by reg
You mean there is still a chance for the US to get the cup.
...
Maybe a cup of coffee
...
If you think what he said was bad, you have not heard what goes on in basketball or football (US football).
Are you saying to insult people on the field is part of
the game, and we better get used to that reality soon?
I think it is unbearable. I believe i want to believe
reg
Now I am suprised that someone from UK, the country of gentlemen where football and most sports are born, find normal to insult the opponements in a major championship.
Another example of someone reading what they want to read! Nowhere did I say it was normal or acceptable. Don't think I implied it, either. FWIW, as reg says, it is normal (usual), in almost all close contact sport for verbals to be given.
All I've said is Zidane is a moron for reacting as he did to a verbal insult, and thus deprive his team of their best player for the last few minutes of the World Cup final.
David
PS in a famous exchange during a cricket match, a bowler asked a batsman "how come you're so fat?". The batsman replied "because whenever I f@*k your wife she gives me a biscuit". Far better than whacking him one, don't you think?
Originally posted by Vox Barbara
I just read in the news a very interesting note: The FIFA
could deprive Italy of the World Cup, IF they can get
evidence, what Materrazii really used for his insult.
Article 55 in FIFA code clearly says:
If players, officials (and ...) do behave in a very discriminating
and/or inhuman manner, (...) the squad they belong to can be
(...) disqualified.
To put it in other words, Italy didn't go through yet.
this thread isn't finished yet too.
I don't want to deprive Italy of the World cup. I just want that Materrazi is blamed if there is proof he used insults.
Zidane will make a declaration this evening (It's morning here in France).
Originally posted by iMac David
Another example of someone reading what they want to read! Nowhere did I say it was normal or acceptable. Don't think I implied it, either. FWIW, as reg says, it is normal (usual), in almost all close contact sport for verbals to be given.
No you just say nothing about this. Silence look like approval. And I disagree that it's normal in close compact sports to exchange insults, usual perhaprs, but normal : never.
Originally posted by Powerdoc
I don't want to deprive Italy of the World cup. I just want that Materrazi is blamed if there is proof he used insults.
Zidane will make a declaration this evening (It's morning here in France).
no such announcement regarding this declaration you mentioned.
Zisous manager basically says, that Zisou will tell the truth,
when time seems to be right. Whatever that does suppose to mean.
I think we'll never really know, unless both Zidane and Materazzi make exactly the same claim (which, frankly, isn't likely). I suspect that in the noise of the ground, the only 2 people who heard exactly what was said were the two guys, and no-one else.
For those interested, Martin Samuel of The Times has an excellent article on the subject.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...266124,00.html
Cheers,
David
Originally posted by iMac David
...
For those interested, Martin Samuel of The Times has an excellent article on the subject.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...266124,00.html
...
Well, this article is good and disturbing at the same time.
I guess we will have to wait until Zisous declaration this evening.
Although right now i highly doubt that this declaration will be satisfying
at all. It will merely approve the sheer banality of the situation.
(Someone insulted someone else, and therefor he lost self control,
what a pity.)
Originally posted by reg
The worst things are said in the stands. We went to a Eagles / Redskins game in Philly last year and some of the fans were ridicules in what they said and how they acted. I guess that is why they were suppose to put a court in the lower part of the stadium. I will say that the ushers did respond quickly and escorted several out.
reg
Philadelphia fans are notoriously bad.