bobolicious

...I'm surprised the magnetic detach hasn't been touted more, and I too missed anything in the launch indicating a stand (even if basic) was included... Once I understood the nature of the innovative and likely highly engineered design especially as an upgrade, the pricing made much more sense.  Should we be concerned about what may seem a rather blocky form and what it may mean for future Apple industrial design, especially in comparison to the elegance of the tapered and curved iMac and Thunderbolt displays and stands ? I guess we will know soon enough, and hopefully be pleasantly surprised...

Also it may be worth noting (according to everymac.com) the 30" Cinema Display initially listed over 15 years ago at $3,300 US in June 2004.  As I recall it dropped in price in time as well...

jcs2305 said:

GeorgeBMac said:

I get it why they designed it this way.   But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain.  I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.

On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines.  So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.

Is this machine non repairable, or not able to be repaired by the average home enthusiast?  I am confused by this?  Surely Apple wouldn't simply replace the machine if it needed repair? Like say an Apple Care scenario... you take it in for a failure and instead of repairing it they replace the whole machine?  

In my world both apply... There are times when I have a machine is under warranty, or time is tight, or there may be a non-critical need like a drive warning for example, and I will pay for service when appropriate - and I use indy dealers who do same day service vs the Apple Store which at last check was a 2 week wait.  There are other times when I simply want to upgrade or downgrade ram, so on the iMac, macbook pro 17" or even mini I simply do it. There may be other times when a need is urgent, service is unavailable (travel) or a simple drive update is something easy enough to tackle and time is available, and I've moved components around between mini, macbook pro and iMac (ram), typically upgrading a top end machine over time as demands increase with software, and occasionally repurposing downward when a faster machine is bought to replace it, or a machine is to be sold with still useful components for other machines... It all seems pretty basic, and my guess is all macs could be designed for easy access. Changing a sata drive or ram in mac portable (most aka SJ era) was/is perhaps a 10~20 minute exercise and 10~15 screws... I have also switched the VESA mount on an older iMac and both Cinema and TB displays, and upgraded Time Capsule drives extending the life (sustainability) and usefulness of the latter. Why the new LG display lacks a single screw mount to use the wonderful portrait rotation of macOS I do not understand, for example.  Agreed such is not for everyone, however it has seemed very helpful to at least have such options when managing even a small number of macs used for business !

wizard69 said:

StrangeDays said:

GeorgeBMac said:

I get it why they designed it this way.   But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain.  I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.

On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines.  So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.

Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on. 

It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)

That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers. 

I’m not sure where this garbage about consummers never performing repairs on their cars comes from. It simply doesn’t reflect reality, in fact if you have never addressed a problem on your automobile I’d say you are in the minority.    Even Walmart’s dedicate considerable space to high volume maintenance parts.   Within a short distance of my home there are at least 3 parts stores selling largely to the owners of automobiles.    Frankly service items on a laptop, like the battery, should  not be any more difficult to replace than a battery on a car.   That means a few common tools and a standardized component.  

By the way I have to agree that non upgradeable doesn’t mean disposable.   This though drags the discussion off course because being reasonable repairable has nothing to do with being upgradeable.  What makes a MBP disposable is when repairs to common items expected to fail costs more than the value of the machine.  I’d go so far as to say that Apples repair policies are designed to drive purchases of new equipment.    Let’s be honest here, for old Apple hardware you need to go third party for repairs and that only happens if They can get the parts.  Apple basically doesn’t want to know you even if the hardware is otherwise serving a need.  

You seem to not understand brakes.  Have them go bad and you will understand that they are an item that can require repair.  As for PC’s, at work the IT department does a surprising amount of repairs to laptops, desktops and even stuff in the server room.  For a reasonably sized organization it is far more cost effective to repair in house.  So things like batteries, keyboards and so forth get replaced in laptops.   Desktops and embedded PC’s sometimes leave you with little choice but to repair in place.   So hard drives , video cards, power supplies and other items all get handled in house.    There are a number of reasons for this but one simple one is that downtime isn’t acceptable.   Then you have the issue of security and letting strangers into your systems.    Another issue is the fact that a third party would have no idea as to what is going on with the hardware.   The corporate world is funny though because another division or installation might have a totally different policy.   In any event you can’t really say that PC’s aren’t repaired.  They are often repaired in house to some extent or another.    By the way not one Apple product exists in these sorts of installations, Apple simply doesn’t supply the required hardware.  

...to add and qualify I liken some wear components more like tires, wheels, shocks and springs. Optimized at the design stage, performance may be best with OEM to start. Of course there is wear, and different tires for different driving conditions (think HD/SSD), and In time there may be better performing options or sizes invented and available. Might Apple's approach compare to welded on wheels, shocks and springs ?

fastasleep said:

bobolicious said:

...I remember when SJ came back to Apple and the introduction of the Powerbook G3 with dual externally swappable drive/battery bays and a keyboard that could be simply lifted out from the top with the turn of a slot screw for access to internals. Then came the G4, again with externally swappable battery and easy underside access to all the internals, drive, ram, etc. via a dozen or so screws... I put an SSD in my G4 PB for legacy file access and it works well still to this day, including 'Classic' emulation - both were considered state of the art 'Pro' offerings at the time and priced accordingly, and the latter could be paired with the wonderful 30" Apple Display...

The Powerbook G3 was also 7.5 lbs.

Indeed the first 'Wall Street' was a bit of a 'luggable', although as I recall touted as a desktop replacement at the time, with 4MB SGRAM retailing at up to $5,999 US per everymac.com... The later 'bronze' G3 model was 5.9 lbs while maintaining the 2 drive/battery bays and easy internal access, seemingly as a priority by design...

Does the new 16” mbp beg a comparison test with the revised Razer 17” 4K ?
www.razer.com/gaming-laptops/razer-blade-pro

Does the Geekbench 5 Open CL benchmark for the GeForce RTX 2080 Max-Q @ 88,423 better even the Vega 64 ? browser.geekbench.com/opencl-benchmarks